what's the least carb intake; for a muscle to still be building?

[russia dog]

i weight 156 pound

current diet
protein 370, carb 150, 20 fat cal 2360
that is 68% protein
27 % carb
and fat the rest

goal: be ripped as hell and still be adding a little mass

i need 2360 requirement cal

i tried 40/40/20; still doesn't look at sharp
if i switch carbs to more protein for the same cals.. will i impair my gains?
wad's the least minimal carb intake for anabolism?

[vBRAH]

What supplements and/or steroids are you currently taking?
Whats your cardio routine like? (if any)

[DSM4Life]

Everyone is different. I been taking in only 30 grams a day m-f and making gains.

[VeraDeMilo]

That may be a little excessive for protein. Thats around how much protein I take in per day and I weigh 275lbs. I would lower the protein a bit and raise your unsaturated fat intake.

[VeraDeMilo]

and as far as your original question for the least amount of carbs you can take in and still build muscle.... Theoretically, the answer is zero. As long as your calorie intake for protein and fat calories is over your maintenence level.

[DSM4Life]

and as far as your original question for the least amount of carbs you can take in and still build muscle.... Theoretically, the answer is zero. As long as your calorie intake for protein and fat calories is over your maintenence level.

True but still a good idea to carb cycle.

[VeraDeMilo]

True but still a good idea to carb cycle.

Oh, I completely agree with you when bulking. I was just responding to the question "what is the lowest amount"....I was just saying hypothetically its zero if you are over your maintenance requirement, you will still build. But carbs should definately be utilized when building muscle.

[AdamGH]

you have to have an iron will to eat no carbs. youll get some hardcore cravings

[ray0414]

and as far as your original question for the least amount of carbs you can take in and still build muscle.... Theoretically, the answer is zero. As long as your calorie intake for protein and fat calories is over your maintenence level.

i disagree, zero carbs is dangerous and you will lose muscle. when pro bodybuilders prepare for a show they lose some muscle along the way because of the low car diets they go on to shred the fat. You need SOME carbs in your diet to maintain healthy brain and spinal cord function.

[gettingBIGGERfast]

i disagree, zero carbs is dangerous and you will lose muscle. when pro bodybuilders prepare for a show they lose some muscle along the way because of the low car diets they go on to shred the fat. You need SOME carbs in your diet to maintain healthy brain and spinal cord function.

no such thing as an essential carb

[VeraDeMilo]

i disagree, zero carbs is dangerous and you will lose muscle. when pro bodybuilders prepare for a show they lose some muscle along the way because of the low car diets they go on to shred the fat. You need SOME carbs in your diet to maintain healthy brain and spinal cord function.

I am afraid you could not be farther off with this comment. Please research the ketogenic diet.

And also, with any diet you will lose muscle. It has nothing to do with the carb amount. You lose muscle because you are in a caloric deficit.

And as for carbs needed to mainain healthy brain function... also false. Once in Ketosis (running on fats for energy), your brain function is normal. And if anything, maybe a little better than normal. Because there are no ups and downs that come with spiking your insulin levels. Everything is stabalized.

[Deltasaurus]

im only gunna say this Once "Carbs will Increase your gains versus low carb"

[ray0414]

I am afraid you could not be farther off with this comment. Please research the ketogenic diet.

And also, with any diet you will lose muscle. It has nothing to do with the carb amount. You lose muscle because you are in a caloric deficit.

And as for carbs needed to mainain healthy brain function... also false. Once in Ketosis (running on fats for energy), your brain function is normal. And if anything, maybe a little better than normal. Because there are no ups and downs that come with spiking your insulin levels. Everything is stabalized.

Once you get your masters degree in science i will be sure to listen to you, but we were taught what i just said in college in my anatomy class by someone who is known on campus to be the best anatomy teacher at my school. your brain and spinal cord use CARBS for energy, and if its not available it dips into your muscle mass that u already have and CANNOT use protien that you have just ate, hence why the atkins diet will cause you to lose WEIGHT, becuase u are losing muscle mass. he told us about ketosis and he also told us that 100grams of carbs per day was a safe bet to make sure you arent losing any muscle.

here is an article by a competitve bodybuilder online and what he says:

2. Your carbohydrates are too low. Low carb diets are often used for fat loss, but it is a mistake to cut your carbs too drastically. Carbohydrates are protein-sparing, so even if you are eating large amounts of protein, you can still lose muscle if you your carbs are too low.

link for that article:

http://www.healthrecipes.com/muscle.htm

[ray0414]

im only gunna say this Once "Carbs will Increase your gains versus low carb"

like he said, as long as u have a steady supply of carbs your body wil never break down any protien, doesnt mean u need alot, but u still need a little thru out the day to combat catabolism. the guys question was how low can you go on carbs to maintain muscle mass, but he wants to keep adding muscle, zero carbs could be dangerous.

[j4ever41]

Once you get your masters degree in science i will be sure to listen to you, but we were taught what i just said in college in my anatomy class by someone who is known on campus to be the best anatomy teacher at my school. your brain and spinal cord use CARBS for energy, and if its not available it dips into your muscle mass that u already have and CANNOT use protien that you have just ate, hence why the atkins diet will cause you to lose WEIGHT, becuase u are losing muscle mass. he told us about ketosis and he also told us that 100grams of carbs per day was a safe bet to make sure you arent losing any muscle.

here is an article by a competitve bodybuilder online and what he says:

2. Your carbohydrates are too low. Low carb diets are often used for fat loss, but it is a mistake to cut your carbs too drastically. Carbohydrates are protein-sparing, so even if you are eating large amounts of protein, you can still lose muscle if you your carbs are too low.

link for that article:

http://www.healthrecipes.com/muscle.htm

Are you saying that the only weight that someone would lose on the atkins diet is from muscle loss?

[russia dog]

is it okay to take all carb 150 gram at one time right before i go to bed?

[russia dog]

i just enjoy taking carb before i go to bed so much

[VeraDeMilo]

See my response in bold

Once you get your masters degree in science i will be sure to listen to you, but we were taught what i just said in college in my anatomy class by someone who is known on campus to be the best anatomy teacher at my school. lol. My friend, you should not be posting on this board if the only people you are gonna listen too are people with masters degree in science. You are in college and obviously still learning and basing your argument off of what a teacher with probably no bodbuilding experience is telling you. I'm sure if you ask him also he will tell you that your body can only utilize something like 0.72g of protein per kg of bodyweight Your brain and spinal cord use CARBS for energy, and if its not available it dips into your muscle mass that u already have and CANNOT use protien that you have just ate, hence why the atkins diet will cause you to lose WEIGHT, becuase u are losing muscle mass. Again, you could not be more false with this statement. Without carbs your body will use fats or proteins as energy. When their supply is in abundance, it will not breakdown muscle. And with enough fats, especially when your body is in ketosis, your protein will be spared as well.The fact that you are saying that weightloss one acheives from the atkins diet is stictly from loss of muscle due to low carbs also shows just how much learning you still have to do. Being in a caloric deficit is what makes you lose weight. And with the correct equation of protein and fats in relation to you daily requirements for your lean body mass and activity level, much of your bodweight loss will be from bodyfat he told us about ketosis and he also told us that 100grams of carbs per day was a safe bet to make sure you arent losing any muscle.
Again, this has to do with being in a caloric deficit, not the random number of carbs you take in


here is an article by a competitve bodybuilder online and what he says:

2. Your carbohydrates are too low. Low carb diets are often used for fat loss, but it is a mistake to cut your carbs too drastically. Carbohydrates are protein-sparing, As are fatsso even if you are eating large amounts of protein, you can still lose muscle if you your carbs are too low.or fats, or daily calory intake is too low

link for that article:

http://www.healthrecipes.com/muscle.htm

I can post hundreds of links too, but I'll let you do the research as you may learn something along the way. And just to reinforce what I said earlier. Carbs should be utilized when bulking. However, the original poster asked what was the least amount of carbs one can take in and still build muscle, to which the answer is still zero. And as someone stated earlier, there is no such thing as an essential carb

[VeraDeMilo]

like he said, as long as u have a steady supply of carbs your body wil never break down any protienFalse again. If you have a steady supply of carbs but your daily caloric intake is too far under your neccessary daily caloric maintenance level based on your activity levelm you will break down protein, doesnt mean u need alot, but u still need a little thru out the day to combat catabolism. the guys question was how low can you go on carbs to maintain muscle mass, but he wants to keep adding muscle, zero carbs could be dangerous.

Yes the guys question was how low you canf go on carbs to GAIN MUSCLE (not just maintain muscle mass) to which the answer is still zero

[Deltasaurus]

your body needs at least 120-150grams a day for your brain to function properly it can use other things in your body but glucose from carb breakdown is preferred.

[VeraDeMilo]

your body needs at least 120-150grams a day for your brain to function properly it can use other things in your body but glucose from carb breakdown is preferred.

False. Your body NEEDS zero grams of carbs a day to function properly once in ketosis. And also, you will then have an unlimited supply of energy because once you run out of fats that you consume, your body feeds off its own body fat as energy. To which it has a more or less unlimited supply.

Also, without adequate fats or carbs for energy, your body has the ability to convert some protein into glucose.

This is why there is no such thing as an ESSENTIAL CARB. While there are such things as ESSENTIAL FATS.

[VeraDeMilo]

And in response to carbs needed for proper brain function and spinal cord health, THIS COULD NOT BE MORE FALSE.

The ketogenic diet is used to slow neuron deterioration and protect motor neurons by promoting energy in the mitochondria as a treatment of Amyotrophic lateral Sclerosis (ALS) through diet intervention

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1488864



The ketogenic diet is also used in treatment for epilepsy and reduces epileptic seizures in patients

The ketogenic diet ENHANCES BRAIN ENERGY PRODUCTION and INCREASES NEURON STABILITY

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1114220938.htm



It is also used to halt the progression of tumors in patients with certain illnesses by impairing tumor metabolism without effecting the patients nutritional status. Carbohydrates excellerate the tumor progression.

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:336049



A Ketogenic Diet Increases Brain Insulin-Like Growth Factor Receptor and Glucose Transporter Gene Expression

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ull/144/6/2676



You guys are merely parroting information that you have heard over the years. You need to open up a book once in a while. (preferably one written in the last few years) lol

[novastepp]

In my personal experience I always keep carbs high. WORKS FOR ME, and with MY LIFESTYLE. Sure, as anyone reading this thread can see, many different approaches can work for many different people. In my opinion, I would tell you that for you haven't provided me enough information to make a valuable guess. Height? training experience? cardio? job/lifestyle? ENTIRE DIET?

You will be able to find facts that can defend any approach. Use them wisely. Trial and error are teh best solutions to questions like this. (e.g. i work well off of a high carb diet. but i absolutely feel like SHIT when i eat rice and bread. therefore, when i say high carb that alone does not suffice. I must say i use soleyly potatoes, broccoli, skim milk, and occasionally oats).

VeraDeMilo is a very intelligent poster, and is full of bodybuilding knowledge. His approach is completely dissimilar to mine in regard to cutting, nearly complete opposites. However he has had great success with his approach. I feel i have had success with mine. The overall similarity? We know what works for us and our goals, and we have solidified and simplified that approach.

And don't get too stuck on being anabolic and catabolic. Anabolic toward fat tissue and catabolic toward muscle tissue is a harrowing thought to a bodybuilder. Concern yourself with lean mass growth and fat loss. You want to ensure the first and promote the second. Find a dietary approach that best allows you to do both.

[russia dog]

A Ketogenic Diet Increases Brain Insulin-Like Growth Factor Receptor and Glucose Transporter Gene Expression

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ull/144/6/2676



You guys are merely parroting information that you have heard over the years. You need to open up a book once in a while. (preferably one written in the last few years) lol[/QUOTE]


Ok this one is rather interesting

[VeraDeMilo]

Nova I was actually wondering when you were going to post in this thread.
Thank you for the kind words.

I did get a little bit away from the original topic. Russia Dog, were you asking this question as a theoretical question, or are you looking to bulk on low carbs? While it can be done, it is not the ideal method to use when building. And while I do advocate very low carbs when cutting, I do bulk with high carbs and carb cycling.
When cutting, I may take in anywhere from zero-40g of carbs indirectly a day. When bulking like I am now, I am taking in between 300-400 grams of carbs a day. Sometimes more. Through trial and error, I have found that my body grows best with a protein/carb/fat calorie ratio of basically 1•1•1

[novastepp]

Nova I was actually wondering when you were going to post in this thread.
Thank you for the kind words.

I did get a little bit away from the original topic. Russia Dog, were you asking this question as a theoretical question, or are you looking to bulk on low carbs? While it can be done, it is not the ideal method to use when building. And while I do advocate very low carbs when cutting, I do bulk with high carbs and carb cycling.
When cutting, I may take in anywhere from zero-40g of carbs indirectly a day. When bulking like I am now, I am taking in between 300-400 grams of carbs a day. Sometimes more. Through trial and error, I have found that my body grows best with a protein/carb/fat calorie ratio of basically 1•1•1

do you separate carbs and fats in your meals? i find that method is sometimes exaggerated by many. i myself don't separate them, but I also do not take in a large amount of fats when bulking.

[abbot138]

In my personal experience I always keep carbs high. WORKS FOR ME, and with MY LIFESTYLE. Sure, as anyone reading this thread can see, many different approaches can work for many different people. In my opinion, I would tell you that for you haven't provided me enough information to make a valuable guess. Height? training experience? cardio? job/lifestyle? ENTIRE DIET?

You will be able to find facts that can defend any approach. Use them wisely. Trial and error are teh best solutions to questions like this. (e.g. i work well off of a high carb diet. but i absolutely feel like SHIT when i eat rice and bread. therefore, when i say high carb that alone does not suffice. I must say i use soleyly potatoes, broccoli, skim milk, and occasionally oats).

VeraDeMilo is a very intelligent poster, and is full of bodybuilding knowledge. His approach is completely dissimilar to mine in regard to cutting, nearly complete opposites. However he has had great success with his approach. I feel i have had success with mine. The overall similarity? We know what works for us and our goals, and we have solidified and simplified that approach.

And don't get too stuck on being anabolic and catabolic. Anabolic toward fat tissue and catabolic toward muscle tissue is a harrowing thought to a bodybuilder. Concern yourself with lean mass growth and fat loss. You want to ensure the first and promote the second. Find a dietary approach that best allows you to do both.

This is an awesome post.....Reed and I had it out a while back when he first joined the board and was preaching the Keto diet for cutting....Then almost at the same time, we both aplogized and bascially said, "different strokes, for different folks." All that matters is what works for you and its been my experience that trial and error is the only way to get there....Im like you, I have ZERO interest in cutting without carbs, my lifts suffer, my personality suffers, people around me suffer, lol. But thanks in part to this site and several of its members I have matured enough to know that this doesnt give me the right to bash someone else for using a dieting/training method that works for them, for any reason, whether it be a clinical based argument or real-life experience based.

[VeraDeMilo]

do you separate carbs and fats in your meals? i find that method is sometimes exaggerated by many. i myself don't separate them, but I also do not take in a large amount of fats when bulking.

I have tried this method before, with 3 protein/fat meals and 3 protein/carb meals alternating every 3 hours throughout the day. And to be honest, I did not see much of a beneficial difference in bodyfat storage from just having 6 balanced meals combining all 3 in each one. So this is the route I go now. (6 meals, pro/carb/fat in each)
Also, when bulking, I like to keep my insulin levels spiked as much as possible, so I feel having carbs with each meal may be a bit more beneficial to myself and my goals

[VeraDeMilo]

This is an awesome post.....Reed and I had it out a while back when he first joined the board and was preaching the Keto diet for cutting....Then almost at the same time, we both aplogized and bascially said, "different strokes, for different folks." All that matters is what works for you and its been my experience that trial and error is the only way to get there....Im like you, I have ZERO interest in cutting without carbs, my lifts suffer, my personality suffers, people around me suffer, lol. But thanks in part to this site and several of its members I have matured enough to know that this doesnt give me the right to bash someone else for using a dieting/training method that works for them, for any reason, whether it be a clinical based argument or real-life experience based.

I am the exact same way on a LOW carb diet. However on the keto diet, which is basically NO carbs/few indirect carbs, the result is very different. it takes about 4 days for your body to fully reach ketosis. In those 4 days, I am miserable, irritable, have no energy, can't think or focus well, don't want to lift, or talk to anyone, lol. But once my brain reaches ketosis, it is quite an amazing feeling. I wake up with all the energy in the world. And it doesn't change. My mood is pleasant, I have zero mood swings. My energy levels are steady, thoughts are clear, focus is amazing, I have very few food cravings. And it stays that way as long as you don't mess up your diet. However, a lot of people who have had bad experiences with it fail because they don't monitor their diet strictly. Even having a piece of breaded chicken or a tblspoon of bbq sauce will temporarily kick you out of ketosis and thats when you will experience a short term period of irritability and low energy. Because your body goes back to thinking is is running on glucose again instead of ketones.

As I told Nova before, I was very skeptical before I ever ran that diet because it basically went against everything I had ever learned before. And I had tried the low carb diets before and experienced the unpleasant feelings that you described. But I gave it a shot and absolutely love it. I am in no way preaching that it is the only way. It is merely a different way. And the way that I myself have personally experienced the most success while cutting fat and maintaining muscle without the help of outside dietary aids.

I absolutely 100% agree that each one of us is different. And what works best for one person, may not for the next. But I feel its important for each of us to give everything a fair try to see how we respond to everything.

[abbot138]

Very very interesting information. I must say you have peaked my interest, lol.

[novastepp]

This is an awesome post.....Reed and I had it out a while back when he first joined the board and was preaching the Keto diet for cutting....Then almost at the same time, we both aplogized and bascially said, "different strokes, for different folks." All that matters is what works for you and its been my experience that trial and error is the only way to get there....Im like you, I have ZERO interest in cutting without carbs, my lifts suffer, my personality suffers, people around me suffer, lol. But thanks in part to this site and several of its members I have matured enough to know that this doesnt give me the right to bash someone else for using a dieting/training method that works for them, for any reason, whether it be a clinical based argument or real-life experience based.

i like what you said. i am stone cold advocate of the pro/carb method. and maybe i should change that to, "i am stone cold 100% for everyone trying it for at leats a month or two". i know it takes time to get used to using carbs and if after a long period of strcit dieting, it isn't working... then maybe try something else. i enjoyed reading your post.

I have tried this method before, with 3 protein/fat meals and 3 protein/carb meals alternating every 3 hours throughout the day. And to be honest, I did not see much of a beneficial difference in bodyfat storage from just having 6 balanced meals combining all 3 in each one. So this is the route I go now. (6 meals, pro/carb/fat in each)
Also, when bulking, I like to keep my insulin levels spiked as much as possible, so I feel having carbs with each meal may be a bit more beneficial to myself and my goals

that is where i am in regards to separation. sometimes they naturally separate (chicken and potatoes), other times my pro/fat/carbs are about equal (steak, cheese, potatoes).

I am the exact same way on a LOW carb diet. However on the keto diet, which is basically NO carbs/few indirect carbs, the result is very different. it takes about 4 days for your body to fully reach ketosis. In those 4 days, I am miserable, irritable, have no energy, can't think or focus well, don't want to lift, or talk to anyone, lol. But once my brain reaches ketosis, it is quite an amazing feeling. I wake up with all the energy in the world. And it doesn't change. My mood is pleasant, I have zero mood swings. My energy levels are steady, thoughts are clear, focus is amazing, I have very few food cravings. And it stays that way as long as you don't mess up your diet. However, a lot of people who have had bad experiences with it fail because they don't monitor their diet strictly. Even having a piece of breaded chicken or a tblspoon of bbq sauce will temporarily kick you out of ketosis and thats when you will experience a short term period of irritability and low energy. Because your body goes back to thinking is is running on glucose again instead of ketones.

As I told Nova before, I was very skeptical before I ever ran that diet because it basically went against everything I had ever learned before. And I had tried the low carb diets before and experienced the unpleasant feelings that you described. But I gave it a shot and absolutely love it. I am in no way preaching that it is the only way. It is merely a different way. And the way that I myself have personally experienced the most success while cutting fat and maintaining muscle without the help of outside dietary aids.

I absolutely 100% agree that each one of us is different. And what works best for one person, may not for the next. But I feel its important for each of us to give everything a fair try to see how we respond to everything.

i am still going to give your diet a shot when i feel the need to cut, so don't go changing your game up on me i'm going to need your help when i plan out the adventure.

comments

[VeraDeMilo]

Nova, I honestly think you will do very well on it. You are very knowledgeable about dieting and nutrition and it seems you are very disciplined in your daily eating habbits, so I think you are one of the people that will find great success on it. I definitely look forward to helping out

[BIG TEXAN]

Both diets are good...keto and carb use, just depends on the individual. I find it with myself it's easier going keto....crab cycling drives me nuts and leaves me feeling hungry quite often....but both work for me...I normally do keto but this go around I'm doing carb cycling of low to no carbs and eveyr 3rd day carbing up....been working for the past 16 weeks, dropped down to 5% from 11% and have only lost a little over 1 pound of muscle.

[abbot138]

Both diets are good...keto and carb use, just depends on the individual. I find it with myself it's easier going keto....crab cycling drives me nuts and leaves me feeling hungry quite often....but both work for me...I normally do keto but this go around I'm doing carb cycling of low to no carbs and eveyr 3rd day carbing up....been working for the past 16 weeks, dropped down to 5% from 11% and have only lost a little over 1 pound of muscle.

Yeah, thats what I normally do as well once I get around 10%. And yeah on the no carb days I feel pretty much worthless. But hoenstly after reading this thread I am considering trying Keto next go around. I didn't realize that your body adjusts to it after a few days and that as you put it it is actaully easier than cycling from a mental aspect.

[BIG TEXAN]

Yeah, thats what I normally do as well once I get around 10%. And yeah on the no carb days I feel pretty much worthless. But hoenstly after reading this thread I am considering trying Keto next go around. I didn't realize that your body adjusts to it after a few days and that as you put it it is actaully easier than cycling from a mental aspect.

It is, but it has it's ups and downs like any diet....hell give it a try, you just have to make sure you eat healthy fats. People sometimes think it to be like atkins....keto you eat alot of chicken, fish, red meat sparingly and take a crapload of EFA's... but it's do able. Try it and see which one performs better for you.

[russia dog]

i love carb so much so i just take em all at once; 150 gram in 1 meal, so i can enjoy the enormous amount.... do u think it will make me fatter? eating all carb at once 150 gram; in the context of insulin spiking... because sometime i take em all 150 gram right before i go to bed!! the packed stomach just gave me such a good sleep!!!

[novastepp]

your body isn't going to process that amount at all. guy your size is probably around 30ish grams per meal. spread em out.

[novastepp]

Both diets are good...keto and carb use, just depends on the individual. I find it with myself it's easier going keto....crab cycling drives me nuts and leaves me feeling hungry quite often....but both work for me...I normally do keto but this go around I'm doing carb cycling of low to no carbs and eveyr 3rd day carbing up....been working for the past 16 weeks, dropped down to 5% from 11% and have only lost a little over 1 pound of muscle.

yeah, i'll probably be around 13%. i find when i start bulking my strength sky rockets until i reach a certain bodyfat percentage (9-13%). then i keep putting on size in that body fat percentage range. i don't like to go over that, and my body doesn't like me under. i'm probably right over the 10% right now at about 210-215lbs. going up slowly.

i usually only have to cut for 6 weeks and i'm under 8%. so using the keto diet i'm anxious to see how i respond when the time comes.

[russia dog]

your body isn't going to process that amount at all. guy your size is probably around 30ish grams per meal. spread em out.

u mean i can eat 150 gram and my body only takes up 30 gram?? dat's fabolous!!

[BIG TEXAN]

yeah, i'll probably be around 13%. i find when i start bulking my strength sky rockets until i reach a certain bodyfat percentage (9-13%). then i keep putting on size in that body fat percentage range. i don't like to go over that, and my body doesn't like me under. i'm probably right over the 10% right now at about 210-215lbs. going up slowly.

i usually only have to cut for 6 weeks and i'm under 8%. so using the keto diet i'm anxious to see how i respond when the time comes.

I hear ya..I usually stay right around 11% off-season comfortably....getting down to 3-4% isn't easy but it's do-able. When you're ready to go keto let me know and I'll def walk ya through it.