POST workout fast carb! Which one or ones?

[baddgsx]

Hi everyone ,

So after our hard workout we should be taking in a fast absorbing protein and carbs. My gym sells waximaize. Should i buy that? Also ive read that i should take in some dextrose monohydrate and maltodextrin. Does waximaize cover that or do i buy all three?

Anyone have a good formula for that intake and what to take?

Thanx ,

Badd

5'8"
195 lbs
9% bodyfat

[Klimax]

Take oats, save money and stay lean.

[baddgsx]

in the morning and post workout? how much , 1 cup? But oats doesnt dijest as fast , or does it?

[Klimax]

Oats have low gi and that's why you more likely to stay lean than taking dextrose & Co.
How much and when? It depends from your diet and stats.

[oscarjones]

1C rolled is like 54g carbs. Good starting point. I usually do 1C oats + medium greenish banana and 30-40g whey.

[johnnyrv]

Aren't simple carbs such as dextrose better than complex such as oats for a postworkout especially if it's liquid??

[BJJ]

Oats have low gi and that's why you more likely to stay lean than taking dextrose & Co.
How much and when? It depends from your diet and stats.

That's why the OP (already lean) needs a high glycaemic index glucides after his work-out, surely no oats.

[oscarjones]

That's why the OP (already lean) needs a high glycaemic index glucides after his work-out, surely no oats.

common myth...

i think it better to keep blood glucose levels balanced throughout the day.

why spike insulin only PWO?

also, just because you are lean doesn't mean your glucose tolerance is higher or lower.

excess insulin supports and stores excess glucose as fat cells, and removes fat from the blood and transports it to fat cells. i don't see why high GI carbohydrates should be utilized in a PWO regimen?

use of exogenous slin is whole other story for PWO regimen.

[BJJ]

common myth...

i think it better to keep blood glucose levels balanced throughout the day.

why spike insulin only PWO?

also, just because you are lean doesn't mean your glucose tolerance is higher or lower.

excess insulin supports and stores excess glucose as fat cells, and removes fat from the blood and transports it to fat cells. i don't see why high GI carbohydrates should be utilized in a PWO regimen?

use of exogenous slin is whole other story for PWO regimen.

The insulin is the anabolic hormone for excellence and in addition to facilitating the entry of fats and carbohydrates inside the cell, also facilitates the entry of the protein. It is explained because after the workout (with the weights) is advised to consume high glycaemic index carbohydrates together with whey protein.
This association causes an insulin peak that favours the entrance of the amino acids in muscles cells, where will be used to repair the protein structures damaged, and encourage the anabolism.
The use of low glycaemic index carbohydrates, would slow and in some cases (genetics) thwarts the process.

PS
I do not speak "by Myth".
I break them down, usually!

[POPS]

Take oats, save money and stay lean.

x2, Also I suggest grinding them up and throw them right in with your whey shake....

10 lb box ( 2 - 5lb bags ) at costco or sams I think around $11....

[oscarjones]

The insulin is the hormone anabolic for excellence and in addition to facilitating the entry of fats and carbohydrates inside the cell, also facilitates the entry of the protein. It is explained because after the workout (with the weights) is advised to consume high glycaemic index carbohydrates together with whey protein.
This association causes an insulin peak that favours the entrance of the amino acids in muscles cells, where will be used to repair the protein structures damaged, and encourage the anabolism.
The use of low glycaemic index carbohydrates, would slow and in some cases (genetics) thwarts the process.

PS
I do not speak "by Myth".
I break them down usually!

Source of information? I believe the difference in anabolic up regulation is negligible at best, and that this protocol's benefits do not outweigh the possible negative effects of an insulin spike.

Like I said previously if you are using a combination of exogenous slin and bcaa + whey then I can see the use of an immediate insulin spike... but otherwise I don't agree.

[C_Bino]

Source of information? I believe the difference in anabolic up regulation is negligible at best, and that this protocol's benefits do not outweigh the possible negative effects of an insulin spike.

Like I said previously if you are using a combination of exogenous slin and bcaa + whey then I can see the use of an immediate insulin spike... but otherwise I don't agree.

Couldn't agree more.

Absolutely no need to consume high GI after a workout. No extra benefit aside from shooting blood sugar up and then way down and messing with adrenal glands and actually releasing more cortisol in the long run.

Plus, people argue about refilling glycogen lol, as if you can refill glycogen with one drink of "dextrose" after a training session.

[BJJ]

Source of information? I believe the difference in anabolic up regulation is negligible at best, and that this protocol's benefits do not outweigh the possible negative effects of an insulin spike.

Like I said previously if you are using a combination of exogenous slin and bcaa + whey then I can see the use of an immediate insulin spike... but otherwise I don't agree.

There could be no "possible negative effects of an insuline spike" in a healthy athlete who is consuming high gi carbs once a day, 4/5 times a week.
Only benefits.

Furthermore, BCAA must be used on a empty stomach and ALONE!!!
That's why I did not mention them before.

[C_Bino]

There could be no "possible negative effects of an insuline spike" in a healthy athlete who is consuming high gi carbs once a day, 4/5 times a week.
Only benefits.

Furthermore, BCAA must be used on a empty stomach and ALONE!!!
That's why I did not mention them before.

No possible side effects???

You f*cking absolutely bet there could...you realize that even 1tsp of sugar decreases immune function and white blood cells by 17-20% for up to 5 hours right?

And that in cases of dramatic BG drop from an insulin spike your adrenals will actually release cortisol.

And the argument of them being healthy has NOTHING to do with it. That is a totally useless argument. It's like saying oh you arent diabetic YET so go ahead and have sugar...but once you're diabetic and unhealthy than ya you shouldn't do it. How the hell do healthy people BECOME unhealthy? By doing things like this.

Oh you dont have lung cancer so have a smoke once a day 4-5 times a week. Its a completely invalid argument. Besides, that is admitting that if you are unhealthy it IS a bad idea...so why a bad idea for some and not others? The point is that raising insulin purposely by consuming refined sugars is not a good idea.

There is no proof that using high GI over low GI will constitute any further muscular hypertrophy.

[oscarjones]

No possible side effects???

You f*cking absolutely bet there could...you realize that even 1tsp of sugar decreases immune function and white blood cells by 17-20% for up to 5 hours right?

And that in cases of dramatic BG drop from an insulin spike your adrenals will actually release cortisol.

And the argument of them being healthy has NOTHING to do with it. That is a totally useless argument. It's like saying oh you arent diabetic YET so go ahead and have sugar...but once you're diabetic and unhealthy than ya you shouldn't do it. How the hell do healthy people BECOME unhealthy? By doing things like this.

Oh you dont have lung cancer so have a smoke once a day 4-5 times a week. Its a completely invalid argument. Besides, that is admitting that if you are unhealthy it IS a bad idea...so why a bad idea for some and not others? The point is that raising insulin purposely by consuming refined sugars is not a good idea.

There is no proof that using high GI over low GI will constitute any further muscular hypertrophy.

Haha. Thank you C_Bino you the man!

[BJJ]

No possible side effects???

You f*cking absolutely bet there could...you realize that even 1tsp of sugar decreases immune function and white blood cells by 17-20% for up to 5 hours right?

And that in cases of dramatic BG drop from an insulin spike your adrenals will actually release cortisol.

And the argument of them being healthy has NOTHING to do with it. That is a totally useless argument. It's like saying oh you arent diabetic YET so go ahead and have sugar...but once you're diabetic and unhealthy than ya you shouldn't do it. How the hell do healthy people BECOME unhealthy? By doing things like this.

Oh you dont have lung cancer so have a smoke once a day 4-5 times a week. Its a completely invalid argument. Besides, that is admitting that if you are unhealthy it IS a bad idea...so why a bad idea for some and not others? The point is that raising insulin purposely by consuming refined sugars is not a good idea.

There is no proof that using high GI over low GI will constitute any further muscular hypertrophy.

Never spoke about "refined sugars", while using high GI carbs coming from fruits mostly is a good way to raise your insulin and "use" it at your disposal.
A healthy person will not become unhealthy doing so.
I am the living example and was natural for 36 years.

So, "There is no proof that using high GI over low GI will constitute any further muscular hypertrophy"?
Sir, I believe we studied in another planet... ...but the way you jumped on me on this thread (we never "spoke" before), makes think you just want to argue knowing at first I am correct!
Perhaps, you had a bad day.

[oscarjones]

Never spoke about "refined sugars", while using high GI carbs coming from fruits mostly is a good way to raise your insulin and "use" it at your disposal.
A healthy person will not become unhealthy doing so.
I am the living example and was natural for 36 years.

So, "There is no proof that using high GI over low GI will constitute any further muscular hypertrophy"?
Sir, I believe we studied in another planet... ...but the way you jumped on me on this thread (we never "spoke" before), makes think you just want to argue knowing at first I am correct!
Perhaps, you had a bad day.

Show me a study of your proof if you believe this to be the case.

You obviously aren't an expert in nutrition or else you'd know C_Bino from this board and probably wouldn't be so disrespectful to him.

Why don't you take his advice as a blessing and open your mind to the fact that there are things you may be wrong about!

[BJJ]

(2) Show me a study of your proof if you believe this to be the case.

You obviously aren't an expert in nutrition or else (1) you'd know C_Bino from this board and probably wouldn't be (3) so disrespectful to him.

(4) Why don't you take his advice as a blessing and open your mind to the fact that there are things you may be wrong about!

1 The fact I do not know who he is does not necessarily means he is correct. I am not a person who gives credit to a man because others do, while I try understand what a person want to mean and then have my opinion. In this particular case, he is wrong. How can a person possibly say taking one banana or melon or any dextrose after a workout to lead to any problem in a healthy individual. This is foolish!

2 I need to show you nothing since you are so arrogant. Study for yourself as I did.

3 Disrespectful to him? I believe he was jumping to me at first, like others before him to then apologize in private via PM.

4 I am in this field since almost 20 years, do you know my knowledge background about these topics... no? So why are you judging? I should take his advice "as blessing"!!! who is he, God incarnate?

out of the contest
You know, you remind me a person on this board who lastly apologized to me via PM for having assumed he knew me, me and my background.
This person, did not have the "balls" to publicly apologize but no big deal to me, I accepted his own apologies anyway.
You are driving in the same direction he was...

So, I have no intentions to keep going on this topic at least for respect to the OP. Keep you ideas, or keep believing in others' ones, you probably are one of those who needs to follow.

[C_Bino]

Show me a study of your proof if you believe this to be the case.

You obviously aren't an expert in nutrition or else you'd know C_Bino from this board and probably wouldn't be so disrespectful to him.

Why don't you take his advice as a blessing and open your mind to the fact that there are things you may be wrong about!

LOL Dont worry man. Like he said, we all have our own idea's and beliefs. I gave direct reasoning for my arguments, via immune and T-lymphocyte suppression from sugars and cortisol release in a state of hypoglycemia onset from sugars.

He has given absolutely no validation for using sugars aside from it releasing insulin , which again there is no proof will add more muscle than using the same amount of carbs from a lower GI source yet you wont get an insulin crash, wont decrease your immune system and wont retain as much water. Let people do as they will.

As long as you stick to low GI you will be good, no everyone is as open to changing their ideas...especially old school people who have been doing the same thing for over 20 years.

Dont worry, I actually KNOW professional bodybuilders personally, wanna know something? NONE of them use whey and dextrose, straight after training they go for whole food, same as Cutler same as all of them...unless they happen to be using insulin, and even then sometimes its whole food.

[BJJ]

LOL Dont worry man. Like he said, we all have our own idea's and beliefs. I gave direct reasoning for my arguments, via immune and T-lymphocyte suppression from sugars and cortisol release in a state of hypoglycemia onset from sugars.

He has given absolutely no validation for using sugars aside from it releasing insulin , which again there is no proof will add more muscle than using the same amount of carbs from a high GI source yet you wont get an insulin crahs, wont decrease your immune system and wont retain as much water. Let people do as they will.

As long as you stick to low GI you will be good, no everyone is as open to changing their ideas...especially old school people who have been doing the same thing for over 20 years. You assume to know me with that sentence, while you do not! Furthermore, you need some sort of big brother or father to come after you. Good news, you have found one who knows you so well to have joined this board September 2009. You people make laugh!

Dont worry, I actually KNOW professional bodybuilders personally, wanna know something? NONE of them use whey and dextrose, straight after training they go for whole food, same as Cutler same as all of them...unless they happen to be using insulin, and even then sometimes its whole food. what people are you talking about? those so smart and knowledgeable who screwd up their HPTA system completely and irreversibe? Yeah sure, they are very reliable...

Eat some bananas man, you will be fine!

[**TOP**]

To make this thread more complicated, I use fats Pwo with zero carbs!

[Sfla80]

To make this thread more complicated, I use fats Pwo with zero carbs!

^^^^ LMAO was waiting for you to chime in

[**TOP**]

^^^^ LMAO was waiting for you to chime in

LOL whats thats suppose to mean!!

[Sfla80]

LOL whats thats suppose to mean!!

was waiting to see your opion because now im confused as hell.....and then you come in and say no carbs only fats!!!



I am lost

[oscarjones]

1 The fact I do not know who he is does not necessarily means he is correct. I am not a person who gives credit to a man because others do, while I try understand what a person want to mean and then have my opinion. In this particular case, he is wrong. How can a person possibly say taking one banana or melon or any dextrose after a workout to lead to any problem in a healthy individual. This is foolish!

2 I need to show you nothing since you are so arrogant. Study for yourself as I did.

3 Disrespectful to him? I believe he was jumping to me at first, like others before him to then apologize in private via PM.

4 I am in this field since almost 20 years, do you know my knowledge background about these topics... no? So why are you judging? I should take his advice "as blessing"!!! who is he, God incarnate?

out of the contest
You know, you remind me a person on this board who lastly apologized to me via PM for having assumed he knew me, me and my background.
This person, did not have the "balls" to publicly apologize but no big deal to me, I accepted his own apologies anyway.
You are driving in the same direction he was...

So, I have no intentions to keep going on this topic at least for respect to the OP. Keep you ideas, or keep believing in others' ones, you probably are one of those who needs to follow.

You're not worth my time.

[Little Herc]

Since they nvr fill up protein tubs more than half way. I blend some oatmeal up and mix it in.

[Twist]

I am not biased in this convo at all and I respect both bino and bjj because I have seen both of them post very helpful info. It is a shame that it has to get so negative every time there is a debate and therefore people like me do not learn a damn thing. this could have been a very good debate but it went to shit... again... I like binos approach and I would love to hear the backing to the insulin argument.

[energizer bunny]

To make this thread more complicated, I use fats Pwo with zero carbs!

well im going to be trying this from Monday.......for the next 4 weeks and see how it goes....i was using whey/oats and previous to that whey/dextrose..so might aswell try whey/udos oil LOL....

[BJJ]

I am not biased in this convo at all and I respect both bino and bjj because I have seen both of them post very helpful info. It is a shame that it has to get so negative every time there is a debate and therefore people like me do not learn a damn thing. this could have been a very good debate but it went to shit... again... I like binos approach and I would love to hear the backing to the insulin argument.

I am sorry for that, I did not mean to confuse anyone. I apologize.

I would like to advise you to use the approach of energizer bunny, who said he tried both way, low GI and hi GI. You will know then how your body reacts.
Something is for sure, you WILL NOT become unhealthy by eating a banana or similar after your workout. (this is what I contest to bino).

For the rest of the day, an insuling correct approach is the one that contemplates low GI.

[oscarjones]

I am sorry for that, I did not mean to confuse anyone. I apologize.

I would like to advise you to use the approach of energizer bunny, who said he tried both way, low GI and hi GI. You will know then how your body reacts.
Something is for sure, you WILL NOT become unhealthy by eating a banana or similar after your workout. (this is what I contest to bino).

For the rest of the day, an insuling correct approach is the one that contemplates low GI.

That is because bananas have a low GI rating.

I don't disagree that some fruits may be acceptable for utilization in a "PWO Shake", however the idea of sugar itself such as malto or dextrose is just incomprehensible to me. Further, I still choose whole meals over shakes and sugars.

Black berries for example may also be another good source of fruit in a shake, even though a large part of them is made of sugars. They are a particularly good source of antioxidants, and contain micronutrient levels of vitamins and minerals. Their natural phenolic acid content and ORAC (oxygen radical absorption capacity) is extremely high, next to cranberries and blueberries. So, some of the anti-oxidant powers may negate the bad effects of the sugar, which C_Bino mentioned, that may occur from an insulin spike.

Regardless, this won't prevent you from spiking your insulin, and why battle something you shouldn't have to? I believe prevention is key, and not depending on some cause and effect balance.

That being said, BJJ, I don't necessarily think you're way off base in your argument for the incorporation for some fruits PWO, however the old dogma of "You must have fast acting carbs immediately PWO!" is exactly that.

I understand you felt attacked by my previous comment and for that I apologize, I didn't mean to slander your knowledge in the field of nutrition/bodybuilding. It wouldn't make sense because I don't really know you, and should be less assuming.

In the end, I'd just like to point out that the reason for my comments was merely because you didn't provide any of the "proof" that you claimed existed, and generally your arguments lacked backed up.

For others viewing this thread I apologize that I perpetuated the negative vibe and debate rather than contribute like I should have. I hope we all learn something from this.

[LionsGate]

heres another good post with pwo/post cardio info. good stuff guys.

Post cardio nutrition

[C_Bino]

I am sorry for that, I did not mean to confuse anyone. I apologize.

I would like to advise you to use the approach of energizer bunny, who said he tried both way, low GI and hi GI. You will know then how your body reacts.
Something is for sure, you WILL NOT become unhealthy by eating a banana or similar after your workout. (this is what I contest to bino).

For the rest of the day, an insuling correct approach is the one that contemplates low GI.

Good lord...I was just gonna stop replying cuz I dont care anymore. But when did I EVER ONCE say banana's will make you unhealthy?

PLEASE look back and show me that...Read all of our posts in chrono order and show me.

You repeatedly said HIGH GI...I replied saying its not a good idea and THEN after you mention banana's to which I NEVER REPLIED.

[Twist]

A lot of people do the whole high gi thing. to some it is like common knowledge. But I see no reason that you would ever want to spike your insulin or (when cutting) replenish your glycogen levels.

Bino do you think it is good to replenish them once you wake up? like shouldn't you just use the rest and depletion that the night sleep gave you as a tool to further keep your levels low? or is there something I am missing?

[BJJ]

Good lord...I was just gonna stop replying cuz I dont care anymore. But when did I EVER ONCE say banana's will make you unhealthy?

PLEASE look back and show me that...Read all of our posts in chrono order and show me.

You repeatedly said HIGH GI banana is medium/high GI, so it fits in the example....I replied saying its not a good idea and THEN after you mention banana's to which I NEVER REPLIED. because you play smart...

But not with me!

[oscarjones]

But not with me!

The more green and raw the banana the lower GI rating it has. Again they aren't a very HI GI food if you eat them at the right ripeness. SO, to argue that bananas are medium/high GI is ridiculous, they can actually be quite LOW.

Do some research!

[Klimax]

And what if anyone used both high ang low gi carbs postwo: for instance 20g dextrose and 100g oats? I'm waiting BJJ's and C_Bino's answers, if they don't mind.

[C_Bino]

A lot of people do the whole high gi thing. to some it is like common knowledge. But I see no reason that you would ever want to spike your insulin or (when cutting) replenish your glycogen levels.

Bino do you think it is good to replenish them once you wake up? like shouldn't you just use the rest and depletion that the night sleep gave you as a tool to further keep your levels low? or is there something I am missing?

Well you will never fully replenish glycogen with one meal. It is why competitors load for 3 days going into a show. You are constantly breaking down glycogen to be used throughout the day; to maintain blood sugar, fuel your brain, make ATP etc.

But I suppose the question of eating carbs upon rising would depend on your training schedule that day. If you are cutting as you stated than I wouldnt if you are getting up to do cardio...if you are training in the a.m. than I would have carbs in my first meal , unless you had some in your last meal the night before to utilize during your workout and had a pro/fat meal in the a.m.

But unless I am in the late stages of cutting, I do usually advocate carbs in pre workout meal.

[BJJ]

The more green and raw the banana the lower GI rating it has. Again they aren't a very HI GI food if you eat them at the right ripeness. SO, to argue that bananas are medium/high GI is ridiculous, they can actually be quite LOW.

Do some research!

If you would have made the researches you talk about or travelled to India or Brasil, you knew that bananas must be eaten when mature, so yellow dark/brown and not when green!
When mature they are medium/high GI, depending on their origin.

[**TOP**]

And what if anyone used both high ang low gi carbs postwo: for instance 20g dextrose and 100g oats? .

The end of the world would be upon us, the center of the earth would open up and swallow everything good and holy,fire would rain from the heavens
and demolish everything in its path! LOL that was fun!!

[Twist]

Well you will never fully replenish glycogen with one meal. It is why competitors load for 3 days going into a show. You are constantly breaking down glycogen to be used throughout the day; to maintain blood sugar, fuel your brain, make ATP etc.

But I suppose the question of eating carbs upon rising would depend on your training schedule that day. If you are cutting as you stated than I wouldnt if you are getting up to do cardio...if you are training in the a.m. than I would have carbs in my first meal , unless you had some in your last meal the night before to utilize during your workout and had a pro/fat meal in the a.m.

But unless I am in the late stages of cutting, I do usually advocate carbs in pre workout meal.

When people are in a higher bf (14+ IMO) I have been advocating carbs before workout (weight training) and after weight training (if no cardio) when on a low carb diet. my reasoning is that the carbs will be utilized for the weight training and muscle building almost exclusively. Is this good reasoning?