The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....

[edgarr]

Would running testosterone as a cutter while doing this diet alter the diets effectiveness
in any manner?

Should only help!

[gbrice75]

I've committed myself to doing some variation of a CKD diet starting this Monday. I have read all of 'The Anabolic Diet', and about 1/3rd of 'BodyOpus' (thanks again TOP!). Until I read further and/or am told differently, I will be doing a basic diet whereby I get less than 30g carbs M-F, do my workouts etc, then do a carb refeed over the weekend with hopefully decent carb choices. I just went food shopping and learned a few things:

1 - this is WAY more daunting than I expected it to be. About 10 years ago I tried the Atkins diet (which I know is different than CKD in many ways but it's fundamentally the same). I thought that the ONLY goal was to deprive myself of carbs and so long as I did that, i'd lose fat. I did not pay attention to overall daily caloric intake, nor did I give any thought to the amount (or quality) of fat I was eating. Needless to say, it was a failed attempt at losing fat.

2 - EVERYTHING HAS CARBS DAMNIT! It's unbelievable how almost everything has carbs in it. I found it VERY difficult to shop as the carbs were adding up despite my best efforts. 1g here, 2g there, <1g here and there - it adds up when you're trying to stay under 30g per day. $hit - my protein powder alone contains 3g. On top of that I had to give up my beloved natty PB and nuts as they have way too many carbs to even bother with. Not fun!

3 - It just seems wrong. Ok, I KNOW I need to get over this FAST if this diet is going to have any chance. But I unpacked my grocery bags, looked at what I bought and thought to myself who would EVER think this food is for a person on a 'diet', or better yet somebody trying to build their body? The lack of carbs (oats, veggies, etc. just didn't seem right; but at the same time I know this isn't your everyday mainstream accepted diet.

I just wanted to list what I bought today for critique. I am having a very tough time with what to buy, I feel like a fish out of water and I REALLY need your help, or I am going to fail miserably on this diet. Please let me know if I should include/exclude anything:

1 package of bacon
1 package of hotdogs (1g carb per hotdog)
1 package breakfast sausage (2g carbs per 3 sausages)
1lb 85% ground beef
1 bag of Colby Jack Cheese 'blocks' (1g carbs per 4 blocks)
1 Corned Beef Brisket
1 1/2 dozen Eggs
1 Package of White Cheddar String Cheese
1 Package of Taylor Ham (Pork Roll)
1 package shredded sharp Cheddar cheese (to top on the ground beef for flavor, don't know what else to do with the beef and can't imagine eating it plain)
1 container of fresh mozarella
1 package of goat cheese (I use it to top chicken breast)
1 can salmon (like the canned tuna)

I think that's it. It seems terribly unhealthy, and most everything I bought is high in saturated fat - I just don't know what else to buy! I have EVOO at home, etc.

I figured I could make egg salad (eggs, mayo, mustard) for a meal, corned beef with mustard for another meal, eggs and bacon/sausage/pork roll for another, beef topped with cheese for another, etc. I have plenty of steaks in my freezer. What do you think?

Last question - on this diet, should I still be taking my whey protein shake after my workout? (need to mix with water now instead of skim milk - DISGUSTING!). Also, should I continue my casein shake before bed?

Thanks in advance guys.

[energizer bunny]

im also starting my CKD trial on Monday, got my food on Friday and diet all sorted, training sorted...im now trying to figure out the carb load(im finding this to be the hardest part lol)

[Failure]

You can add water and a bit of Heavy Cream to your shake. I just do ice cubes and peanut butter to my unflavored whey. There is also low/no sugar chocolate syrup.
You can eat almonds, avacados, lettuce, and a bunch of other things in moderation. You can just eat real meats and save your carbs for the 'goodies'. It does get easier though. After a while you wont miss carbs. I don't, in fact when I eat carbs I have a hard time stopping. On or off the diet.

[energizer bunny]

I've committed myself to doing some variation of a CKD diet starting this Monday. I have read all of 'The Anabolic Diet', and about 1/3rd of 'BodyOpus' (thanks again TOP!). Until I read further and/or am told differently, I will be doing a basic diet whereby I get less than 30g carbs M-F, do my workouts etc, then do a carb refeed over the weekend with hopefully decent carb choices. I just went food shopping and learned a few things:

1 - this is WAY more daunting than I expected it to be. About 10 years ago I tried the Atkins diet (which I know is different than CKD in many ways but it's fundamentally the same). I thought that the ONLY goal was to deprive myself of carbs and so long as I did that, i'd lose fat. I did not pay attention to overall daily caloric intake, nor did I give any thought to the amount (or quality) of fat I was eating. Needless to say, it was a failed attempt at losing fat.

2 - EVERYTHING HAS CARBS DAMNIT! It's unbelievable how almost everything has carbs in it. I found it VERY difficult to shop as the carbs were adding up despite my best efforts. 1g here, 2g there, <1g here and there - it adds up when you're trying to stay under 30g per day. $hit - my protein powder alone contains 3g. On top of that I had to give up my beloved natty PB and nuts as they have way too many carbs to even bother with. Not fun!

3 - It just seems wrong. Ok, I KNOW I need to get over this FAST if this diet is going to have any chance. But I unpacked my grocery bags, looked at what I bought and thought to myself who would EVER think this food is for a person on a 'diet', or better yet somebody trying to build their body? The lack of carbs (oats, veggies, etc. just didn't seem right; but at the same time I know this isn't your everyday mainstream accepted diet.

I just wanted to list what I bought today for critique. I am having a very tough time with what to buy, I feel like a fish out of water and I REALLY need your help, or I am going to fail miserably on this diet. Please let me know if I should include/exclude anything:

1 package of bacon
1 package of hotdogs (1g carb per hotdog)
1 package breakfast sausage (2g carbs per 3 sausages)
1lb 85% ground beef
1 bag of Colby Jack Cheese 'blocks' (1g carbs per 4 blocks)
1 Corned Beef Brisket
1 1/2 dozen Eggs
1 Package of White Cheddar String Cheese
1 Package of Taylor Ham (Pork Roll)
1 package shredded sharp Cheddar cheese (to top on the ground beef for flavor, don't know what else to do with the beef and can't imagine eating it plain)
1 container of fresh mozarella
1 package of goat cheese (I use it to top chicken breast)
1 can salmon (like the canned tuna)

I think that's it. It seems terribly unhealthy, and most everything I bought is high in saturated fat - I just don't know what else to buy! I have EVOO at home, etc.

I figured I could make egg salad (eggs, mayo, mustard) for a meal, corned beef with mustard for another meal, eggs and bacon/sausage/pork roll for another, beef topped with cheese for another, etc. I have plenty of steaks in my freezer. What do you think?

Last question - on this diet, should I still be taking my whey protein shake after my workout? (need to mix with water now instead of skim milk - DISGUSTING!). Also, should I continue my casein shake before bed?

Thanks in advance guys.

mate ive managed to fit, skim milk, peanut butter, mayonaise, whey, low carb wrap, almond, seeds.....though thats 40 grams carbs ill be having.....my split worked out 65/30/7 if i remember correctly.....

[gbrice75]

You can add water and a bit of Heavy Cream to your shake. I just do ice cubes and peanut butter to my unflavored whey. There is also low/no sugar chocolate syrup.
You can eat almonds, avacados, lettuce, and a bunch of other things in moderation. You can just eat real meats and save your carbs for the 'goodies'. It does get easier though. After a while you wont miss carbs. I don't, in fact when I eat carbs I have a hard time stopping. On or off the diet.

Yea... doing it this way (cycling carbs) will make this diet 1000 times more realistic than Atkins - I can say this without having even started it yet. Just to have a break (plus 'fun' food) to look forward to on weekends is HUGE.

See, that's the problem - I would LOVE to have nuts, avacado, etc. but at 30g of carbs or less a day (my total cal. is 2000, so 5% is roughly 30g) i'm finding just the regular foods alone that i'm eating contain enough carbs to get me up to 30g - therefore I can't even have PB, almonds, avacado, etc.

[gbrice75]

mate ive managed to fit, skim milk, peanut butter, mayonaise, whey, low carb wrap, almond, seeds.....though thats 40 grams carbs ill be having.....my split worked out 65/30/7 if i remember correctly.....

LoL 65/30/7 is 102% my man!

Above all else, it would be BEAUTIFUL if I could fit just 8oz of skim a day (12g carbs) for my PWO shake. But right there is 1/2 my daily allotment of carbs.... =(

[energizer bunny]

LoL 65/30/7 is 102% my man!

Above all else, it would be BEAUTIFUL if I could fit just 8oz of skim a day (12g carbs) for my PWO shake. But right there is 1/2 my daily allotment of carbs.... =(

LOL

sorry mate

64/29/7........i can get 200ml of skimmed milk....dont know what 8 onzes....i may have to lower carbs, and the milk will be first to go if needs be..

[AnimalJ]

would you recommend doing test e while using the anabolic diet to cut. i will be in a deficit but following the anabolic to a T. i figured Test E will prevent muscle wasting maybe even promote lean mass gains while cutting. Thoughts?

[gbrice75]

I have roughly 24 hours to get this meal thing squared away.... TOP WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!

LoL TOP is gonna hate me if he doesn't already =P

[**TOP**]

The PWO shake is not even necessary,and if you want to put enough time and work into the diet you could have all the milk,nuts etc. in your diet .You may not be able to have them everyday but you could have milk mon-tues nuts wed-thurs,something like that. Dont let this run your life,remember YOU ARE THE BOSS!!

And yes GBRICE this kinda goes against everything you always thought was right about dieting. Who claims to be on a diet when they eat eggs bacon sausauge,spam and mayo,pork rinds and weiners! But it does work and allows the user to learn different ways to test themselves.Also i didnt see one of the most important fats on your grocery list fish oil. with 5 caps and 5 meals thats 250 clean calories.

I read a post earlier that said to use sugar free chocolate syrup,You may wanna check ALL labels. Just because something is sugar free does not mean its carb free!!

Also watch your sugar free gum,there are usually 2 grams of carbs in a single piece.

[gbrice75]

The PWO shake is not even necessary,and if you want to put enough time and work into the diet you could have all the milk,nuts etc. in your diet .You may not be able to have them everyday but you could have milk mon-tues nuts wed-thurs,something like that. Dont let this run your life,remember YOU ARE THE BOSS!!

I'm curious - why not necessary? Is a PWO meal not necessary, or just the shake specifically? The BodyOpus book recommends 30% daily protein come from whey, so i'm confused here! I thought PWO nutrition is arguably the most important meal of the day?

And yes GBRICE this kinda goes against everything you always thought was right about dieting. Who claims to be on a diet when they eat eggs bacon sausauge,spam and mayo,pork rinds and weiners! But it does work and allows the user to learn different ways to test themselves.Also i didnt see one of the most important fats on your grocery list fish oil. with 5 caps and 5 meals thats 250 clean calories.

I should have mentioned I do have fish oil caps... 1g each - was planning on taking 2 with every meal. They're just Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil - got em from Costco.

I read a post earlier that said to use sugar free chocolate syrup,You may wanna check ALL labels. Just because something is sugar free does not mean its carb free!!

Also watch your sugar free gum,there are usually 2 grams of carbs in a single piece.

This brings up a good point - What the F are sugar alcohols? Just sounds like the industry's way of sneaking sugar into something and giving it a different name? Is diet soda safe on CKD? I think they use Sucralose which is what splenda is, and splenda contains maltodextrin and/or dextrose - which is sugar! Bummer about the gum thing, cause my breath is gonna be kickin with keytones!

So TOP - in general, you think i'm ok with the foods I listed? I don't need to be worried about too much saturated fat and the fact that alot of it is dirty processed food, nitrates, etc?

[gbrice75]

I came up with my first 'menu' - one of many to come. Let me know what you think. I've even managed to squeeze in my skim milk!!! Of course depending on TOP's response regarding the PWO shake, it might wind up coming back out again:

2000 Calories – 60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs
Daily Macros:
1200 calories/130g fat
700 calories/175g protein
100 calories/25g carbs

Meal 1 4:30am
2 eggs – 12g protein, 9g fat, 2g carbs – 140 calories
2 bacon – 5g protein, 7g fat – 90 calories
½ tbsp butter – 5g fat, 50 calories
Total - 17g protein, 2g carbs, 21g fat – 270 calories

Meal 2 7:30am
1 scoop whey - 24g protein, 3g carbs, 1g fat – 120 calories
8oz skim milk – 8g protein, 12g carbs – 90 calories
Total - 32g protein, 15g carbs, 1g fat – 210 calories

Meal 3 10:30am
3 eggs – 18g protein, 13.5g fat, 3g carbs – 210 calories
2 tbsp mayo – 20g fat – 180 calories
2 Fish Oil Caps – 2g fat – 20 calories
Total - 18g protein, 35.5g fat, 3g carbs – 410 calories

Meal 4 1:30pm
4oz corned beef – 13g protein, 18g fat – 210 calories
1 string cheese – 5g protein, 7g fat – 90 calories
2 Fish Oil Caps – 2g fat – 20 calories
Total - 18g protein, 27g fat – 320 calories

Meal 5 4:30pm
4oz ground beef – 22g protein, 16g fat – 230 calories
¼ cup shredded cheddar – 7g protein, 1g carbs, 9g fat – 110 calories
2 Fish Oil Caps – 2g fat – 20 calories
Total - 29g protein, 27g fat, 1g carb – 360 calories

Meal 6 7:30pm
Steak – X Factor (depends on the size, for now going with 6oz - also tough to find nutrition info in general for steak, so this one is a BIG estimate)
2 Fish Oil Caps – 2g fat – 20 calories
Total - 36g protein, 14g fat – 275 calories

Meal 7 10:30pm
1 Scoop Casein Protein – 24g Protein, 2g Carbs, 1g Fat – 120 Calories
Total - 24g protein, 2g carbs, 1g fat – 120 calories

Daily Totals: 174g Protein, 126.5g Fat, 23g Carbs - 1965 Calories

What do you think?

[**TOP**]

I say PWO shake is not necessary because you could just go eat your next meal and it will be fine. Taking in supplements and protein powders have been drilled into peoples heads for far to long. They can help but they are "supplements" and that alone. Me personally, i would rather have some tilapia with my milk for PWO instead of a whey protein shake with milk!

[gbrice75]

I say PWO shake is not necessary because you could just go eat your next meal and it will be fine. Taking in supplements and protein powders have been drilled into peoples heads for far to long. They can help but they are "supplements" and that alone. Me personally, i would rather have some tilapia with my milk for PWO instead of a whey protein shake with milk!

Thanks for the clarification. Other than that, do I look ok with the diet I posted above?

[**TOP**]

Looks good to me as long as its in the range of percentages and its correct for your calorit deficit.

[gbrice75]

Looks good to me as long as its in the range of percentages and its correct for your calorit deficit.

Then OFF WE GO!!!

Ok ok, one last question (for today =P ) - since the biggest concern on this diet is carbs, do we or do we not count fiber? For instance my natty PB has 7g carbs but 2 are fiber - so do I count that as 5g or 7g of carbs? Same deal with the nuts.

Also - I will not be getting anywhere near the fiber I was on my last diet (beans, oats, etc) - I would imagine supplementing fiber is important. But again, i'm worried about the carbs... I saw fiber pills and powders to mix in water and it has soluble and insoluble fiber - I suppose I have to count the carbs for the soluble, right?

[**TOP**]

Carbs are carbs count them as carbs. Most fiber supps contain carbs so be careful...TOP

[baddgsx]

is it better to measure food cooked or raw

[baddgsx]

i had my bodyfat measured fri. night by a trainer at my gym using the digital calipers. He measured 3 areas , first my tricepts , then my quads , and last my lower belly. He said it calculated my bodyfat as 12.1% , is that even possible at the way i look now? Not sure if hes doing it right but it did make me smile.

Chris

[**TOP**]

is it better to measure food cooked or raw

Always measure raw.

[**TOP**]

i had my bodyfat measured fri. night by a trainer at my gym using the digital calipers. He measured 3 areas , first my tricepts , then my quads , and last my lower belly. He said it calculated my bodyfat as 12.1% , is that even possible at the way i look now? Not sure if hes doing it right but it did make me smile.

Chris

Dont know what do you look like NOW?

[edgarr]

I came up with my first 'menu' - one of many to come. Let me know what you think. I've even managed to squeeze in my skim milk!!! Of course depending on TOP's response regarding the PWO shake, it might wind up coming back out again:

[B]2000 Calories – 60% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs
Daily Macros:
1200 calories/130g fat
700 calories/175g protein
100 calories/25g carbs

For its worth I notice improvements when I went from 60% fat to 65%. More energy, better work outs, etc.

[AnimalJ]

im done with this diet for a bit but i must say it works no secrets just good ol physiology. I have to say i like mauro's approach more than duchaine's i think anabolic is easier to follow for some reason. Good luck man let us know how your doing!

[gbrice75]

Always measure raw.

See, this has always been an issue for me. For instance, when I measure a single serving of oats (1/2 cup), I measure dry. However, when i'm measuring out my meats I always measure them in ounces, cooked. Example - 4oz of chicken breast is roughly 24g of protein. Let's say I take a raw chicken breast and it weighs 5oz. I then cook it and it weighs 4oz cooked. If I had measured it raw, I would have thought I was getting 5oz/30g protein which isn't the case.

So wouldn't you want to measure all meat cooked?

[gbrice75]

For its worth I notice improvements when I went from 60% fat to 65%. More energy, better work outs, etc.

Good to know. Today is day 1 for me, and I have to say it's tougher than I thought - i'm HUNGRY!!! I miss my oats BIGTIME!

I'll give it 2 weeks as is (60% fat) and if i'm feeling low-energy i'll switch it up to 65% like you and see how that goes. I am managing to keep carbs under 25g, hopefully that's ok - i'm a bit nervous that it's too much!

[gbrice75]

im done with this diet for a bit but i must say it works no secrets just good ol physiology. I have to say i like mauro's approach more than duchaine's i think anabolic is easier to follow for some reason. Good luck man let us know how your doing!

I'm happy to hear this as I sit here and doubt my choice. I just got through eating a big tub of egg salad and felt so guilty with every bite... like... this CANNOT be healthy. But I don't plan on doing this forever; i'd like to cut body fat to 10% and then get on a 40/40/20 diet a few hundred calories above maintenance so I can hopefully start growth. If this diet is going exceptionally well however, I will stick with it beyond the 10%.

Can you give some specifics of your progress? What did you start at (weight and BF%), how long were you on the diet and what are you today? Can you detail how you did it (i.e. workouts, carb reloads, etc.)?

Finally, I agree 100% - The Anabolic Diet is MUCH easier to follow.... you almost don't need to do anything but a fundamental keto diet (atkins) and add the carb reload. BodyOpus seems VERY regimented (the carb reloads are insane, and the workouts don't fit my schedule at all) - but you have to wonder if results would be that much better following BodyOpus?

[edgarr]

Good to know. Today is day 1 for me, and I have to say it's tougher than I thought - i'm HUNGRY!!! I miss my oats BIGTIME!

I'll give it 2 weeks as is (60% fat) and if i'm feeling low-energy i'll switch it up to 65% like you and see how that goes. I am managing to keep carbs under 25g, hopefully that's ok - i'm a bit nervous that it's too much!

The first two weeks or so are the hardest. You even feel like crap sometimes but then it gets better. I am never hungry except for maybe the day after my carb up.

Very easy diet to eat if you are out and about also. I get avocado salads with beef, hamburger (no bun) with bacon, etc. Just know your macros.

I also found that what and when I eat it helps me. I have a larger cal meals before workouts for the energy.

[gbrice75]

Another question - since keto diets are SOOO geared towards fat loss, would you still reccommend a relatively large caloric deficit? For instance, i was at a 500-700 calorie deficit on my 40/40/20 diet, but that diet is much more 'middle of the road' and probably requires a large deficit. I just don't want to be starving myself - I have this set up at 2000 calories daily, my TDEE is right around 2500 (as far as I know).

[edgarr]

Another question - since keto diets are SOOO geared towards fat loss, would you still reccommend a relatively large caloric deficit? For instance, i was at a 500-700 calorie deficit on my 40/40/20 diet, but that diet is much more 'middle of the road' and probably requires a large deficit. I just don't want to be starving myself - I have this set up at 2000 calories daily, my TDEE is right around 2500 (as far as I know).

depends on your goals and how fast you want to reach them also are you doing cardio and if so how much?

[energizer bunny]

Good to know. Today is day 1 for me, and I have to say it's tougher than I thought - i'm HUNGRY!!! I miss my oats BIGTIME!

I'll give it 2 weeks as is (60% fat) and if i'm feeling low-energy i'll switch it up to 65% like you and see how that goes. I am managing to keep carbs under 25g, hopefully that's ok - i'm a bit nervous that it's too much!

its my first day also, felt good, im feeling a bit hungry now tho.......im on 40ish grams of carbs tho.....i had a low carb wrap, chicken,peperoni,cheese and mayo for my lunch, very tasty!

[gbrice75]

depends on your goals and how fast you want to reach them also are you doing cardio and if so how much?

Well, probably needless to say - but I want to lose the most amount of bodyfat possible in a safe way and minimize muscle loss, would love to gain but that's not gonna happen on 2000 calories.

I am doing 1/2 hour cardio 5x a week immediately after my workout (Wednesday is just cardio) - Heart Rate between 130 - 145.

[gbrice75]

its my first day also, felt good, im feeling a bit hungry now tho.......im on 40ish grams of carbs tho.....i had a low carb wrap, chicken,peperoni,cheese and mayo for my lunch, very tasty!

OMG, DIE!!!

I'm so jealous... that sounds great! 40g of carbs sounds a bit high though? What is your total caloric intake daily?

Dude, since we both started today, let's help eachother out and keep eachother motivated. Maybe we can swap ideas, foods, etc. You game?

[mg1228]

See, this has always been an issue for me. For instance, when I measure a single serving of oats (1/2 cup), I measure dry. However, when i'm measuring out my meats I always measure them in ounces, cooked. Example - 4oz of chicken breast is roughly 24g of protein. Let's say I take a raw chicken breast and it weighs 5oz. I then cook it and it weighs 4oz cooked. If I had measured it raw, I would have thought I was getting 5oz/30g protein which isn't the case.

So wouldn't you want to measure all meat cooked?

no---5oz chicken breast raw is how u count it

hope that didnt put u over on cals for the last 2mo

[gbrice75]

no---5oz chicken breast raw is how u count it

hope that didnt put u over on cals for the last 2mo

If so, then i've been WAY off all this time. So to be clear on this - if I need to eat let's say 4oz of chicken breast for a meal, I would weigh 4oz raw, cook and eat, even though the cooked weight might be 3oz? Alot of that weight is water when raw... it seems to me if I am supposed to EAT 4oz of chicken, then I should be counting 4oz of edible chicken, not 3oz of chicken and 1oz of water.

[mg1228]

measure it raw

[mg1228]

u been eatin above tdee? go back and look

[gbrice75]

u been eatin above tdee? go back and look

Probably not; I had my deficit so big (700 cals or so) that even these mistakes wouldn't put me over TDEE.

Measuring raw isn't always possible though - for instance, if I cook a roast, a whole turkey or chicken, a big piece of steak, etc... can't cook small portions, so I would have no choice but to measure cooked.... am I missing something here?

[gbrice75]

What is the final word on artificial sweeteners? Are they ok on a Keto diet? I'm talking about Sucralose (splenda), Aspartame (most diet soda), etc.

[mg1228]

Probably not; I had my deficit so big (700 cals or so) that even these mistakes wouldn't put me over TDEE.

Measuring raw isn't always possible though - for instance, if I cook a roast, a whole turkey or chicken, a big piece of steak, etc... can't cook small portions, so I would have no choice but to measure cooked.... am I missing something here?

thats true--but if u have measured enough raw then u can better guestimate