The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....

[HeavyL]

Hey top..
Ive been experimenting with calories per day. My goal is maximum fat loss, my question is with my weight being at 184 lbs by the way im thinking about increasing or decreasing my calories to achieve the most efficient fat loss method. so how few calories is too few would you say? ive been eating around 2000/ day, all within good keto percentages. so im going to bump it up to 2300 for a few days and then drop it too 1800 andcheck my progress. how do you feel about this?

my workout's are as follows 60 min's empty stomach cardio every day.. and 5 lifts per week, that are later in the day

[**TOP**]

Hey top..
Ive been experimenting with calories per day. My goal is maximum fat loss, my question is with my weight being at 184 lbs by the way im thinking about increasing or decreasing my calories to achieve the most efficient fat loss method. so how few calories is too few would you say? ive been eating around 2000/ day, all within good keto percentages. so im going to bump it up to 2300 for a few days and then drop it too 1800 andcheck my progress. how do you feel about this?

my workout's are as follows 60 min's empty stomach cardio every day.. and 5 lifts per week, that are later in the day

Whats your TDEE?

[gbrice75]

Thanks for the reply TOP - I would have liked your answer better if you told me pizza and beer are ok! =) I get it though man, and I will look into the Bodyopus book as well.

I've been reading on and found a couple more parts that caused me to raise an eyebrow. For instance, The book suggests that a good starting point/maintenance for daily calories is your bodyweight x 18 - for me that's 3,300 calories - WAAAAYYY above my maintenance! I'd go with that number if I were on a bulk or something! They're also suggesting to stay on a bulk phase until BF% reaches 10% - as if we're all below 10%! My purpose is to GET TO 10%!!! BTW - i'm not complaining, just pointing this stuff out. I'm enjoying the read.

One very important question though - I am going to Mexio in 1.5 months and was planning on starting this diet on Monday. I wanted to get rid of as much bodyfat as possible before leaving. However, would it be bad/counter-productive to go on this diet for a month and a half, then go to Mexico for a week where i'll be eating and drinking everything (carbs) under the sun? I would of course go right back to the CKD diet when I get home.

So the question is - should I start this Monday, or just wait until I return from Mexico?

[HeavyL]

not too sure which numbers to use.. im a student so the only physical activity is from 1 hour of cardio a day and about 5o min of weights 5 days per week. weight 184 bf 17 about

[edgarr]

When you say you've been disappointed in the weight loss, do you mean specifically your weight in terms of numbers? If so, with all due respect I think that's a bit misguided - you say you're getting stronger and look better, so if that's true and you are actually losing bodyfat, then you MUST be gaining muscle as well which is UNBELIVABLE at 2000 calories! Worst case scenario you're not losing muscle which is the best one could hope for on a low cal/cutting diet. When can we see some pics?

I shouldn't say disappointed, I should say confused or frustrated. When I step on the scale and there is not much change but I just need to keep telling myself that the mirror is a better judge. Keep in mind that when I started this diet it was after a long vacation (injury) from the gym so I was prob over 20% bf so maybe that is why I am gaining muscle and strength. I have some pics over the summer (while still on vacation) that I will post as before pics.

[gbrice75]

I shouldn't say disappointed, I should say confused or frustrated. When I step on the scale and there is not much change but I just need to keep telling myself that the mirror is a better judge. Keep in mind that when I started this diet it was after a long vacation (injury) from the gym so I was prob over 20% bf so maybe that is why I am gaining muscle and strength. I have some pics over the summer (while still on vacation) that I will post as before pics.

I hear you bro, i'm the king of second guessing myself. I always think everything works for everyone else but not me. All I can tell you is (something I can preach but not practice apparantly!) to stick with it, especially if you like what you're seeing in the mirror. Bodyweight should be the least of your concerns!

[Spike85]

I have been doing the ckd diet for 3 weeks now. I am running 20 carbs a day which are from the vegetables I eat. I work out 4-5 days a week, 30-40 mins of cardio everyday. I do a full body workout on Saturday mornings followed by starting carbs. I eat low fat and high carbs until I go to bed sunday night. I have lost about 7 lbs already, and I have about 10 more to lose until im satisfied.

My only concern is that Monday morning I am 7lbs heavier than I was on the saturday before my carb up period. I know that it is natural to have those gains, but it takes me a couple days to lose it again. Also mondays I am very iritated while my body adjusts to low carbs again, is that natural. Should I just run a straight Keto diet or stick with the ckd?

Also I am a little low on my cal intake, about 800 less than my TDEE. My macros are in check and I piss on a ketostick durning the week to make sure my body is in ketosis.

Stats:

25 years old male
200lbs (lowest so far on diet)
20% bf
TDEE 3008.50
Eating about 2100-2200 cals a day
Macros- 2200 cals, 55 % fat, 40 % protien and 5% carb

Thanks

[Damienm05]

I have been doing the ckd diet for 3 weeks now. I am running 20 carbs a day which are from the vegetables I eat. I work out 4-5 days a week, 30-40 mins of cardio everyday. I do a full body workout on Saturday mornings followed by starting carbs. I eat low fat and high carbs until I go to bed sunday night. I have lost about 7 lbs already, and I have about 10 more to lose until im satisfied.

My only concern is that Monday morning I am 7lbs heavier than I was on the saturday before my carb up period. I know that it is natural to have those gains, but it takes me a couple days to lose it again. Also mondays I am very iritated while my body adjusts to low carbs again, is that natural. Should I just run a straight Keto diet or stick with the ckd?

Also I am a little low on my cal intake, about 800 less than my TDEE. My macros are in check and I piss on a ketostick durning the week to make sure my body is in ketosis.

Stats:

25 years old male
200lbs (lowest so far on diet)
20% bf
TDEE 3008.50
Eating about 2100-2200 cals a day
Macros- 2200 cals, 55 % fat, 40 % protien and 5% carb

Thanks

You're fat is too low. Not by much, but I'd try getting 65% from fat as instructed by Top. 10% may help you get into keto faster and help your body adjust. Also, you're only 3 weeks in, carbs are still your body's preferred energy source. Give it another 2-3 weeks and you'll be more accustomed to using fats as your primary.

Also, some poeple do it, but unless you've got a ton of lean mass to preserve or you're trying to make decent gains, I don't see any need for a 2 day carb-up. In other words, try a 1-day carb up this week and see how much faster that carb-induced water weight drops. But 7 lbs. in 3 weeks is pretty nice man, imagine if you limited your carb-up to a 12-hour period as preferred by the author of this particular CKD.

[Spike85]

Thats some really good advice, ill defintley try that out. So I will carb up right after my full body workout on saturday then go back to low carb on sunday.

[**TOP**]

SPIKE if you are wanting faster fat loss you dont even have to carb up,Although by doing this your strength will suffer as will your gains.By doing this its a regular keto,or ATKINS.

Ive tried the 6 days no carbs keto, 1 day carb load and ive noticed that for me its not enough time to succesfully refire the engine! I feel as if im on a low carb diet my strength suffers and for that reason i stick to a 2 day carb load.

[csavage0]

Just started the Ckd did the diet before it works wonderful. Should I go 2 weeks before I start the carb up meals once a week? My stats are 22 yo 6ft 1 234 lbs about 14 %. I'm running in the morning or should I say very slow jog for 60 min burning 900 cal give or take. Lifting on a 5 day split. After doing the no carb when my carb up meal comes I'm currious to how many carbs I want to take in for this carb up meal ? Would 2 cups of oats or a ft long sub from subway (chickenbreast) be too much. Oh btw I'm only eating 2300 cal a day can I bump this up? 2300 is my BMR and I only eat that much bc my job is at a desk

Top please give your expert advice. Thanks man in advance

[Damienm05]

Top, I've heard that prolonged ketosis with no carb reload can really F-up one's ability to properly metabolize carbs in the future? Any truth to this?

[**TOP**]

just started the ckd did the diet before it works wonderful. Should i go 2 weeks before i start the carb up meals once a week?i wouldnt worry about that i would just start thre carb load the first round! my stats are 22 yo 6ft 1 234 lbs about 14 %. I'm running in the morning or should i say very slow jog for 60 min burning 900 cal give or take.thats alot of calshave you figured that into your calorie allotment. lifting on a 5 day split. After doing the no carb when my carb up meal comes i'm currious to how many carbs i want to take in for this carb up meal ?do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say 150 you divide that by 2.2 which =68/ 68 multiplied by "we will say 14" =952 carbs divide by 24 hours which is 12 meals would be 79 carbs per meal.
Would 2 cups of oats or a ft long sub from subway (chickenbreast) be too much HAHAHA not enough!!. Oh btw i'm only eating 2300 cal a day can i bump this up? 2300 is my bmr and i only eat that much bc my job is at a desktop please give your expert advice.Well if you are surely burning 900 cals in a morning run then you workout 5 days a week id say you arent eating enough,You may want to refigure your numbers.Because that is one huge caloric deficit! Thanks man in advance

`~top

[gbrice75]

Re: my earlier post - is it worth starting this diet on Monday considering that i'm going to Mexico in 1.5 months and will be eating and drinking anything and everything, or should I just start it fresh when I return? I DO want to cut as much BF as possible BEFORE I go, which is why this diet is looking so appealing right now. Is 1.5 months enough to see anything significant, and would I be risking any issues with my week in Mexico? I would of course start CKD again when I return...

[**TOP**]

Re: my earlier post - is it worth starting this diet on Monday considering that i'm going to Mexico in 1.5 months and will be eating and drinking anything and everything, or should I just start it fresh when I return? I DO want to cut as much BF as possible BEFORE I go, which is why this diet is looking so appealing right now. Is 1.5 months enough to see anything significant, and would I be risking any issues with my week in Mexico? I would of course start CKD again when I return...

Gbrice ive watched you post alot and what ive gathered from you is that you seem to over analyze alot of what you do.RELAX! do the CKD go on vacation,enjoy yourself ,then return to CKD when you come home. Just try and coincide the carb load with the vacation,does that make sense?

Also ive seen you freak out when you gain 1lb or lose 3lbs,if you plan on doing CKD prepare yourself,its nothing for me to gain 7lbs over the weekend.This is why i preach that the only scale in your house should be a food scale!So if you gain quick or lose quick dont shit your pants!!

[**TOP**]

Top, I've heard that prolonged ketosis with no carb reload can really F-up one's ability to properly metabolize carbs in the future? Any truth to this?

Hmm never seen a proper study so i cant really comment on the pros and cons.Although staying in ketosis has been said to be acidic to your blood. ATKINS was strictly a keto with no carb up.Its worked for people and still has although i wouldnt recommend it for bodybuilding,powerlifting,football,or any other activity that requires extensive explosive movement.Regular keto"in my opinion" is for the beginner that is over 30% bf and wants to lose weight,not someone trying to bodybuild,AND YES IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOU ARE A BODYBUILDER AND DONT LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT!..TOP

[edgarr]

"do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say 150 you divide that by 2.2 which =68/ 68 multiplied by "we will say 14" =952 carbs divide by 24 hours which is 12 meals would be 79 carbs per meal."

sorry if this sounds dumb but now you got me thinking, 12 meals to me would be two days of carb loading , 6 meals per day. 24 hours would only be 6 meals which by this formula would mean 158 carbs per meal...thats a lot or would that be acceptable for someone looking to carb up for only one day? I was thinking 8 meals which for me would mean 117 carbs per meal.

[HeavyL]

Top is the Man!!! thanks for all the helpful info, i believe i have this diet down to a science now... Ive been carb loading every 9 or 10 days because i hold onto carbs longer then most people i guess. by day 8/9/10 im dropping tons of fat and preserving most of my muscle. then carbs and wow veins comeing out of everywhere..

[**TOP**]

"do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say 150 you divide that by 2.2 which =68/ 68 multiplied by "we will say 14" =952 carbs divide by 24 hours which is 12 meals would be 79 carbs per meal."

sorry if this sounds dumb but now you got me thinking, 12 meals to me would be two days of carb loading , 6 meals per day. 24 hours would only be 6 meals which by this formula would mean 158 carbs per meal...thats a lot or would that be acceptable for someone looking to carb up for only one day? I was thinking 8 meals which for me would mean 117 carbs per meal.

Thats why i think its best to split it into 2 days. Although the book wants you to workout friday then start the carb load the first 4 meals are when insulin sensetivity is highest"in theory" the next 4 meals will be less carbs so on and so forth. So say the 1st 4 would be 150 grams of carbs the 2nd 4 meals would be 100 carbs etc......

Did you ever get a copy of the bodyopus?If not let me know it explains what to eat and how to eat it as time goes by...TOP

[gbrice75]

Gbrice ive watched you post alot and what ive gathered from you is that you seem to over analyze alot of what you do.RELAX! AMEN!!! You're absolutely right, I do this with everything, chalk it up to a character flaw!

do the CKD go on vacation,enjoy yourself ,then return to CKD when you come home. Just try and coincide the carb load with the vacation,does that make sense? Completely - it would just be a 5 day carb up vs. 2 days. My main concern was doing CKD then having a week of a RIDICULOUS amount of carbs, more than I would on my worst week at home. I just wanted to be sure that wouldn't 'shock' my system and cause problems for me. I am leaving on a Wednesday, so I would probably skip my carb reload the weekend prior and just start it on day 1 in Mexico.

Also ive seen you freak out when you gain 1lb or lose 3lbs,if you plan on doing CKD prepare yourself,its nothing for me to gain 7lbs over the weekend.This is why i preach that the only scale in your house should be a food scale!So if you gain quick or lose quick dont shit your pants!! LoL, I know i'm a neurotic jack-ass... and I don't mean to annoy you guys with this stuff! I always get this idea that what works for others never works for me... call me paranoid =P

Thanks TOP, as always you've been very helpful. I will definitely start CKD on Monday and see where it takes me. One question though - I love the idea of being able to get fats from nuts, but it seems like nuts (and natty PB for that matter) have too many carbs already built-in to be a good fat source. What do you think?

[edgarr]

Thats why i think its best to split it into 2 days. Although the book wants you to workout friday then start the carb load the first 4 meals are when insulin sensetivity is highest"in theory" the next 4 meals will be less carbs so on and so forth. So say the 1st 4 would be 150 grams of carbs the 2nd 4 meals would be 100 carbs etc......

Did you ever get a copy of the bodyopus?If not let me know it explains what to eat and how to eat it as time goes by...TOP

Never got your email, you can try again. I tried ordering it from Amazon I think and it was out.

I am thinking of trying to split up the carb load over 36 hours which would be 9 meals and average of 104 carbs per meal. And doing it 125 meals 1-3, 110 meals 4-6 and about 75 meals 7-9??? Seehow that goes for a few weeks.

[**TOP**]

CARB LOAD RULES


STAGE 1 iNITIAL 24 HOURS
Feedings-12
carbs-16x lean bodyweight in kg
Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)

Meal 1-4 -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.

MEALS 5-8-These should be liquid carbs and solid high glycemic carbs(such as cornflakes) Eat 1.5 g of carbsper kg of lean bodyweight at each meal

Meal 9-12-Finally you get to eat some real food eat.5grams of solid starches and some liquid carbs per kg of lbm at each meal

STAGE2
Feedings-12
Type-Mixed,primarily starches

MEAL1-4-Each meal 1gram carbs per kg of lbm SINCE INSULIN SENSETIVITY IS DECLINING YOU SHOULD EAT MORE SOLID CARBS AND PROTEINS!

MEAL5-8-Eat .75 grams of carbs per lbm of normal food (rice,pasta,potatoes)

MEAL9-12-.5GRAMS OF CARBS. Since you want to begin lowering blood glucose before you begin another week of carb depletion,you should eat just the opposite of what you would expect! Go back tosimple liquid carbs and proteins.Basically you want a sugar crash to get you into low blood sugar. Yes insulin ishigher but the actual amount of carbs per meal is quite low.

TRY YOUR BEST TO STAY AWAY FROM FRUCTOSE AND SUCROSE,THESE REFILL LIVER THE MOST AND THATS WILL IN TURN TAKE YOU LONGER TO DEPLETE YOUR STORAGE.

By following this formula everyone will hit there 16grams over the duration no matter what difference you have in LBM from the next guy. I hope this helps people with carb loading...TOP

[**TOP**]

Thanks TOP, as always you've been very helpful. I will definitely start CKD on Monday and see where it takes me. One question though - I love the idea of being able to get fats from nuts, but it seems like nuts (and natty PB for that matter) have too many carbs already built-in to be a good fat source. What do you think?

I agree they must be limited but where they fail you can make up for it in bacon,sausage whole eggs,pork rinds,etc.....TOP

[**TOP**]

Never got your email, you can try again. I tried ordering it from Amazon I think and it was out.

I am thinking of trying to split up the carb load over 36 hours which would be 9 meals and average of 104 carbs per meal. And doing it 125 meals 1-3, 110 meals 4-6 and about 75 meals 7-9??? Seehow that goes for a few weeks.

Read the carb load rules!By what you are saying,you are on the right track!!

[edgarr]

During Keto anything wrong with 1 meal being just fats like a tablespoon of UDO's as long as it's within my macros? What if that was right after cardio?

[**TOP**]

During Keto anything wrong with 1 meal being just fats like a tablespoon of UDO's as long as it's within my macros? What if that was right after cardio?

You may get hungry with nothing but liquid in your gut! And thats not alot of liquid either!

[Damienm05]

AND YES IF YOU ARE READING THIS YOU ARE A BODYBUILDER AND DONT LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT!..TOP

I like all your posts Top but this is the best I've seen.

[baddgsx]

CARB LOAD RULES


STAGE 1 iNITIAL 24 HOURS
Feedings-12
carbs-16x lean bodyweight in kg
Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)

Meal 1-4 -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.

MEALS 5-8-These should be liquid carbs and solid high glycemic carbs(such as cornflakes) Eat 1.5 g of carbsper kg of lean bodyweight at each meal

Meal 9-12-Finally you get to eat some real food eat.5grams of solid starches and some liquid carbs per kg of lbm at each meal

STAGE2
Feedings-12
Type-Mixed,primarily starches

MEAL1-4-Each meal 1gram carbs per kg of lbm SINCE INSULIN SENSETIVITY IS DECLINING YOU SHOULD EAT MORE SOLID CARBS AND PROTEINS!

MEAL5-8-Eat .75 grams of carbs per lbm of normal food (rice,pasta,potatoes)

MEAL9-12-.5GRAMS OF CARBS. Since you want to begin lowering blood glucose before you begin another week of carb depletion,you should eat just the opposite of what you would expect! Go back tosimple liquid carbs and proteins.Basically you want a sugar crash to get you into low blood sugar. Yes insulin ishigher but the actual amount of carbs per meal is quite low.

TRY YOUR BEST TO STAY AWAY FROM FRUCTOSE AND SUCROSE,THESE REFILL LIVER THE MOST AND THATS WILL IN TURN TAKE YOU LONGER TO DEPLETE YOUR STORAGE.

By following this formula everyone will hit there 16grams over the duration no matter what difference you have in LBM from the next guy. I hope this helps people with carb loading...TOP

Im alittle confused , do we pick a stage? either do stage 1 or stage 2 fri. through sat. ?

Thanks,
Chris

[**TOP**]

^ No this is how the carb load is suggested to be ran from start to finish!

[baddgsx]

^ No this is how the carb load is suggested to be ran from start to finish!

So stage 1 12meals starts fri after fullbody workout and ends fri night? And stage 2 starts sat. morning and ends sat night? Total of 24 carb meals?


I thought we were supposed to eat our total carbs divided into 12 meals starting from fri after fullbody workout to sat night.
Sorry TOP, I'm still confused.

[edgarr]

So stage 1 12meals starts fri after fullbody workout and ends fri night? And stage 2 starts sat. morning and ends sat night? Total of 24 carb meals?


I thought we were supposed to eat our total carbs divided into 12 meals starting from fri after fullbody workout to sat night.
Sorry TOP, I'm still confused.

it is a bit confusing. I think this wants you to eat 12 meals in 24 hours, which would require waking up and eating for those of us that sleep and doing that for two days???

i am going to experiment with the above formulas but do it over 9 meals which if i start my carb load at 9am sat I will be done around 3pm on sunday.

[baddgsx]

it is a bit confusing. I think this wants you to eat 12 meals in 24 hours, which would require waking up and eating for those of us that sleep and doing that for two days???

i am going to experiment with the above formulas but do it over 9 meals which if i start my carb load at 9am sat I will be done around 3pm on sunday.

I'm currently doing 12meals spread out from fri pwo to sat night. That's how I interpreted it from the beginning. However , the stage 1 and stage 2 is confusing me. Do you do stage 1 on the first month of this diet and do stage 2 on the second month of this diet program? This is where I'm confused.

[edgarr]

I'm currently doing 12meals spread out from fri pwo to sat night. That's how I interpreted it from the beginning. However , the stage 1 and stage 2 is confusing me. Do you do stage 1 on the first month of this diet and do stage 2 on the second month of this diet program? This is where I'm confused.

^^^ I've beeen confused through this whole diet lol.... like how can one lose weight when they drop 5lbs in 5 days but put 5lbs back on day 6 and 7

But its working, just need to fine tune some areas for more rapid results.

[**TOP**]

First of all the diet was designed for you to lose bodyfat not "weight." 2nd yes according to the way duchaine wants you to do the diet you should eat throughout the night,many wont do that and i for one dont think its exactly necessary.3rd, No its not broken into months,stage 1 is beagn after the depletement workout and stage 2 is done after stage 1. The whole thing can be played around with,like ive said there are many variations of CKD this is just the one i choose to do.

Ive said this many times if you want to know how it all works pm your email and ill send you a copy of the ebook. There is way to much in the book for me to post,you need to read it yourself to get the full benefit.

[baddgsx]

Had a trainer measure my body fat a half hour after I woke up using the electronic one where you grip the handles. 16.5% later I'm going back around 6pm to get checked using his digital calipers.

[Failure]

Are those electronic ones even accurate? I hope they are because I read lower than i thought I was by over 8%

[baddgsx]

Are those electronic ones even accurate? I hope they are because I read lower than i thought I was by over 8%

I think in the morning on an empty stomach they are ALOT more accurate than using it in the evening. Im getting caliper measurements this afternoon so ill be curious to see the results.

Anyone know how long should it take me to get from 16.5% to 10% on the keto diet?


Chris

[**TOP**]

Anyone know how long should it take me to get from 16.5% to 10% on the keto diet?


Chris

Its according to how hard you worked. I would assume it would take the average person 4-6 months.But someone knowing what they are doing that has an excellent work ethic 3-4 months.

[Damienm05]

I think in the morning on an empty stomach they are ALOT more accurate than using it in the evening. Im getting caliper measurements this afternoon so ill be curious to see the results.

Anyone know how long should it take me to get from 16.5% to 10% on the keto diet?


Chris

If you ate 500-700 below your TDEE and did LIT cardio 3-5 times per week. Kept your refeeds light and were willing to risk some strength - you could do it in 60 days. That said, most people eat at a minimal deficit and don't do cardio when doing keto, in fact, that's often their incentive for doing keto!

[wormwood]

Would running testosterone as a cutter while doing this diet alter the diets effectiveness
in any manner?