CKD Diet vs. 40/40/20 - need clarification please!

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 09:21 AM

I started on a 40/40/20 diet 3 weeks ago. Of course, I am always second guessing and doubting what i'm currently doing.

Now I am noticing more and more the CKD diet - particularly the post in this section that TOP originally posted. The original article made several points on how CKD is superior to low-carb diets (can 40/40/20 really be considered low carb?).

I am confused now even further. I'm only 3 weeks in and if CKD is more beneficial then i'd like to go with it, but I always abandon programs before they have a chance to work and don't want to make that mistake this time.

My main confusion is the fact that i've been told to have a refeed day on this 40/40/20 diet; is 40% daily carbs really low enough to warrant a refeed? What am i refeeding if i'm taking in (relatively) plenty of carbs and getting nowhere near Ketosis?

Damnit!!! I just want to lose body fat in the quickest yet safest and most effecient way possible, while maintaining muscle! HELP!!!

**mg1228** · 01-25-2010, 09:42 AM

well the re-feed is useful even in the 40/40/20 split because u are still at a calorie deficit throughout the week------keto diets are just another way of doing it---imo i would continue ur current diet thru 2 mo and re-evaluate---alot of guys get ripped up with carbs---dont overthink it--that could hinder your results-----ur diet will def work---just my .02

**kalspic** · 01-25-2010, 09:45 AM

how old are you? you have a long life ahead of you to experiament with your body and see what works best for you. stick with the 40/40/20 for a few months and dont throw the hard work of putting it together away, see how it works. then switch to the ckd for summer time and see how that works. gauge which was more effective and then decide

**TOP** · 01-25-2010, 10:01 AM

They both are great ways in dieting,like ive said before i like and have used 40/40/20 before and its done wonderful. The CKD is just an alternative to other diets. The problem lies within you not sticking to something long enough. The majority of guys i train with do a 16 week contest prep. If you were to do a 40/40/20 for 3 weeks then stopped and said that diet sucked,that would be misleading because you didnt follw through! Pick one, stick with it, and you will get the results!..TOP

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 10:15 AM

Thanks to all of you for your input! You're absolutely right in that I don't stick with anything long enough to ever yield results. I just need to do it rather than think about it and play mental games with myself.

I will continue strong on the 40/40/20 at the very least through February; that will be 2 solid months and I will re-evaluate at that point. If I feel the results are lack-luster, I will consider switching things up to the CKD diet. I just got very concerned when I saw the original article TOP posted stating all of these negative effects of a low carb diet (I didn't get an answer on this - is 40/40/20 considered low-carb?). I barely have muscle now and cannot afford to lose anything if at all possible!

@Kalspic - i'm 34, so I don't have that much time to experiment! Unfortunately I spent the better years of my life being a lazy fat f**k. I live 10 minutes from the Jersey Shore (no, it's not like those @ssholes you see on TV) and hadn't been there in years - PATHETIC!!!

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 10:40 AM

I dont think a weekly refeed is needed on a 40-40-20 diet. Maybe once every 3-4 weeks at the most. If you are sitting around a 200-500 calorie deficit you should still have plenty of carbs in your system. If your deficit is higher than 500 then you need to up your calories unless you are in a huge time crunch, ie contest right around the corner and you are behind schedule.

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

I dont think a weekly refeed is needed on a 40-40-20 diet. Maybe once every 3-4 weeks at the most. If you are sitting around a 200-500 calorie deficit you should still have plenty of carbs in your system. If your deficit is higher than 500 then you need to up your calories unless you are in a huge time crunch, ie contest right around the corner and you are behind schedule.

Uh Oh!!! This is what I was afraid of - conflicting opinions on a particular type of diet!

I THINK my deficit is about 600 back, but i'm unsure since I don't know my true BMR or TDEE. I went with what I thought was 400-500 back and my body didn't seem to respond, so I shaved off another 100-200. I went down 3lbs during week 3.

I don't think he wrote the book on 40/40/20 diets, but I know NARK is a big proponent of it and suggests the refeed once a week. Fire, you obviously know what you're doing too, so this makes things tough!

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 11:00 AM

You are going to have conflicting opinions on everything. It really all comes down to finding out what works for you.

**TOP** · 01-25-2010, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by fireguy1

you are going to have conflicting opinions on everything. It really all comes down to finding out what works for you.

bingo! (and also sticking with it)

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

You are going to have conflicting opinions on everything. It really all comes down to finding out what works for you.

No doubt! I understand why you'd think a refeed day isn't necessary; 40% of my daily calories coming from carbs sounds relatively normal. However, do you think the refeed will hurt? I suppose if i'm piling tons of carbs on top of carbs, they're going to be stored as fat!

The huge benefit is/was how I felt in the gym this morning; if it's like this every Monday, the refeed is almost worth it even if it provides no other value!

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 11:15 AM

Well, we are starting to split hairs a bit here. Besides Keto, we have low carbs, 40-40-20 and carb cycling. Regardless of which you choose I like to aim for slightly below or at TDEE for cutting purposes. I advocate burning the fat off with cardio as opposed to going way below TDEE.

Under this approach the refeeds are not needed as much because your calories are only slightly below maintenance. On a low carb (150g or less for a bodybuilder) I would do a refeed once every 7-14 days just to fill him out. On a 40-40-20 at just below maintenance I dont see a need for refeeds. With carb cycling I dont see a need for refeeds either as they are already built in. Remember, this is all with the caveat that your diet is close to TDEE or slightly submaintenance with a moderate-heavy cardio schedule.

**TOP** · 01-25-2010, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

No doubt! I understand why you'd think a refeed day isn't necessary; 40% of my daily calories coming from carbs sounds relatively normal. However, do you think the refeed will hurt? I suppose if i'm piling tons of carbs on top of carbs, they're going to be stored as fat!

The huge benefit is/was how I felt in the gym this morning; if it's like this every Monday, the refeed is almost worth it even if it provides no other value!

What did the refeed look like this weekend?

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 11:32 AM

I just saw your thread listing your refeed days list. If I was designing your diet that would be the way you would be eating every day with a slight alteration in ratios. You would be doing more cardio as well though.

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by **TOP**

What did the refeed look like this weekend?

Top - it's posted in the diet section a few posts down from this one at the moment. If I wasn't a moron, i'd know how to link it.

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 11:35 AM

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=417322

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 11:38 AM

Let me clarify, I would have you eating like that calorie wise not food choice wise.

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

Well, we are starting to split hairs a bit here. Besides Keto, we have low carbs, 40-40-20 and carb cycling. Regardless of which you choose I like to aim for slightly below or at TDEE for cutting purposes. I advocate burning the fat off with cardio as opposed to going way below TDEE.

Under this approach the refeeds are not needed as much because your calories are only slightly below maintenance. On a low carb (150g or less for a bodybuilder) I would do a refeed once every 7-14 days just to fill him out. On a 40-40-20 at just below maintenance I dont see a need for refeeds. With carb cycling I dont see a need for refeeds either as they are already built in. Remember, this is all with the caveat that your diet is close to TDEE or slightly submaintenance with a moderate-heavy cardio schedule.

In my case, the 40-40-20 can almost be considered low carb due to my overall low daily caloric goal of 1900. Staying within my caloric range, I wind up only getting about 140g carbs due to higher protein than needed (just the way the meals are working out).

Now, on the diet NARK has another member on, he had him eating right around TDEE on workout days, and 500-600 back on non-workout days. This sounds like a hybrid 40-40-20/carb cycling diet? Either way, he did have the member doing a refeed once a week which happened to be a non-workout day; I doubt he was 500-600 back on that particular day.

While i'm following the 40-40-20 split, I am 500-600 back every day except the refeed. Is this bad? Can I expect to lose muscle this way? The reason I chose to do it this way is because the other member only worked out 2-3 days a week, i'm 4-5. I couldn't see eating at TDEE all week, seems like it would take forever to lose the fat. That said - I have a PM out to NARK for help with my specific situation, but haven't heard back yet, hence alot of the confusion and trial and error.

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

Let me clarify, I would have you eating like that calorie wise not food choice wise.

Thanks for the link, and I kind of figured that's what you meant!!

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 11:46 AM

If you are going to run your calories at 1900 you are going to need weekly refeeds. Again this just comes down to philosophy and preference as to how far below TDEE you choose to go and how much cardio you are willing to do. As far as carb cycling and refeeds I do schedule them on days off from weights as well.

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 02:11 PM

So hopefully i'll be ok as is then. I have to give it another couple of weeks before I can decide whether calories are too low. I doubt at 1900 they're too high, but you never know. Is there ANY indication that i'm losing muscle other than strength loss? I'f i'm able to push the same weight week after week, or even better go up in weight, is it logical to believe that I couldn't possibly be losing muscle?

***FireGuy*** · 01-25-2010, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

So hopefully i'll be ok as is then. I have to give it another couple of weeks before I can decide whether calories are too low. I doubt at 1900 they're too high, but you never know. Is there ANY indication that i'm losing muscle other than strength loss? I'f i'm able to push the same weight week after week, or even better go up in weight, is it logical to believe that I couldn't possibly be losing muscle?

Thats a good indicator, I prefer weekly body comps.

**americanoak** · 01-25-2010, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I live 10 minutes from the Jersey Shore (no, it's not like those @ssholes you see on TV) and hadn't been there in years - PATHETIC!!!

I like this show... lol

but anyway why dont you run your 40 40 20 untill arpil and start cutting up even more on the keto, after few months on 40 40 20 and a month or 2 on ckd you should be pretty much where you wanna be as long as you work hard and exercise

**TOP** · 01-25-2010, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by americanoak

I like this show... lol

but anyway why dont you run your 40 40 20 untill arpil and start cutting up even more on the keto, after few months on 40 40 20 and a month or 2 on ckd you should be pretty much where you wanna be as long as you work hard and exercise

Bad advice ,my opinion is stick with one or the other and stop looking for the magic diet bullett! Consistency,consistency!!!

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 03:35 PM

Some diets work better for some people, we're all different. The clear point here is that I need to stick with what i've chosen to do (God knows i've put a ton of time into refining and working it all out) and give it a chance to work. If after a few months I feel it's not for me, i'll switch things up and try something else. If it's working, i'm of the philosophy 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

**mg1228** · 01-25-2010, 04:10 PM

gbrice---i went back and looked at my diet from nark---as u said tdee on wo days and 600 back on non wo days-----nark suggested a re-feed every 14th day---i just opted to do it every 7th day---but like u said ur 500-600 back even on wo days----just thought id add that---its hard to remember all this seeing how it was a year ago---anyway keep it up-----i was strong as hell this am aswell--as my re-feed was sat. and it somehow led into sun.--oh well

**gbrice75** · 01-25-2010, 07:41 PM

MG - hopefully i'm not hurting myself by staying 500-600 back every day except for the refeed. Also, knowing now that Nark intended for you to have a refeed every 14 days, I am hopefully not hurting myself with doing it every 7. I have to figure since your calories were relatively higher (tdee on wo days) and you still got the results you did, the weekly refeed shouldn't hurt me. OR you have great genetics. =)

**mg1228** · 01-25-2010, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

MG - hopefully i'm not hurting myself by staying 500-600 back every day except for the refeed. Also, knowing now that Nark intended for you to have a refeed every 14 days, I am hopefully not hurting myself with doing it every 7. I have to figure since your calories were relatively higher (tdee on wo days) and you still got the results you did, the weekly refeed shouldn't hurt me. OR you have great genetics. =)

no i think ur ok--like u said i was eatin at tdee 3 days a week and i still had a re-feed every 7--- so ur good------

**scared1** · 01-27-2010, 09:21 AM

This thread has more traffic than grand Central...LOL I think I am very similar to both MG and gbrice so I am watching this thread intently. I just hope I have as much discipline and dedication as these guys are showing.

I am not really following a 40/40/20...so far my diet is about 50/23/22...is this consider more of a low carb diet? is this another way to skin a cat or should I re-evaluate? (see...told you we were alike...indesicive and always second guessing ourselves)

**scared1** · 01-27-2010, 09:22 AM

lol...and I just realized i can't even do the math right. For simplicity purposes it would be a 50/25/25...maybe even higher on the protein.

**TOP** · 01-27-2010, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by scared1

lol...and I just realized i can't even do the math right. For simplicity purposes it would be a 50/25/25...maybe even higher on the protein.

My opinion is you are to low on one or the other. To low on fat for keto and to low on carbs for standard diet. Bump one of them and if its fat you must lower protein. Actually protein needs to be lowered either way!

**scared1** · 01-27-2010, 03:59 PM

so then i guess there is no in between here...no "best of both worlds" scenario. Hmm..I am guessing I would opt for the 40/40/20 split before anything else.

I feel as confused as gbrice seems to be with all his posts. We have PMed each other and find it amusing how similar our approaches have been thus far and feel we are learning/expirementing with our diets in the same fashion.

Oh...and before I forget. Thanks to all you guys for contributing. Even if it seems you are just helping out one guy...rest assured you are helping dozens. I know a few people reading over these and becoming educated in the process.

**gbrice75** · 01-27-2010, 04:14 PM

Scared, if you haven't already done so, check out MG's before/after pics for some real inspiration! He's the one who got me thinking and started on the 40/40/20.

Guys like MG, Top, Twist, Fireguy, and others have all been a great help!

**Narkissos** · 01-29-2010, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I started on a 40/40/20 diet 3 weeks ago. Of course, I am always second guessing and doubting what i'm currently doing.

This is the root of all your problems.

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Now I am noticing more and more the CKD diet - particularly the post in this section that TOP originally posted. The original article made several points on how CKD is superior to low-carb diets (can 40/40/20 really be considered low carb?).

Technically no.

I'm not even sure why you're comparing the 3.

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I am confused now even further.

I think you confused yourself personally.

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I'm only 3 weeks in and if CKD is more beneficial then i'd like to go with it, but I always abandon programs before they have a chance to work and don't want to make that mistake this time.

Problem number 2.

Regardless of the type of dieting you attempt, the only thing that determines whether you'll succeed or fail is you sticking to said diet... nothing more complicated than that.

Originally Posted by gbrice75

My main confusion is the fact that i've been told to have a refeed day on this 40/40/20 diet; is 40% daily carbs really low enough to warrant a refeed? What am i refeeding if i'm taking in (relatively) plenty of carbs and getting nowhere near Ketosis?

My advice?

Stop reading threads.

Stick to what you're currently doing.

When you've exhausted said diet, come back and try something new.

Right now you've totally mixed up dieting ideologies.

40:40:20 diets have NOTHING to do with ketosis.

The role of a re-feed during a ketosis-reliant diet differs from its role during a moderate-carb diet.

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Damnit!!! I just want to lose body fat in the quickest yet safest and most effecient way possible, while maintaining muscle! HELP!!!

See above.

Pick a diet.

Stick with it.

Simple.

**Narkissos** · 01-29-2010, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Now, on the diet NARK has another member on, he had him eating right around TDEE on workout days, and 500-600 back on non-workout days. This sounds like a hybrid 40-40-20/carb cycling diet? Either way, he did have the member doing a refeed once a week which happened to be a non-workout day; I doubt he was 500-600 back on that particular day.

Hybrid? No.

The kcal total doesn't affect the ratio of macronutrients if 40:40:20 is being used.

Kcals are applied as required.

One's intake is fundamentally tied to LBM and caloric output for that day... so obviously calories taken in will be higher on work-out days and lower on non-work-out days... w/ the 40:40:20 being kept constant.

**gbrice75** · 01-29-2010, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Hybrid? No.

The kcal total doesn't affect the ratio of macronutrients if 40:40:20 is being used.

Kcals are applied as required.

One's intake is fundamentally tied to LBM and caloric output for that day... so obviously calories taken in will be higher on work-out days and lower on non-work-out days... w/ the 40:40:20 being kept constant.

Nark - I intend to stick with this diet for at least another month and then reevaluate where i'm at. I just want to nip things in the bud and make sure that what i'm doing is correct, and not counter productive. The last thing I want is to find out 2 months down the road that i've been going about it all wrong.

That said - you have a PM or 2 from me, basically begging for your help! It lists many of my specifics and I was hoping you could 'design' a plan for me based on said info. I do realize you're a busy guy, but if you do find the time, I will stick to what you tell me 100%. =)