Vegetarian diet for bodybuilding viable?

[Flagg]

How much harder is it to bulk up/keep a high calorie intake a day on a vegetarian diet?

I've been chewing the idea of going meat free for awhile and so far ive not had one piece of red meat, poultry or fish for 10 days but it's now beginning to get harder than I thought.

The reason i've quit meat is over ethical reasons, as in intensive farmed animals. I've read one too many articles and watched one too many videos and those places are just concentration camps for animals and my consiounce cant allow it. I mean as of now, I don't want to go anywhere near anything thats remotely processed/junk, which of course is a really good thing, but im beginning to miss animal flesh.

What i've also been thinking of doing is having a "meat day" where I buy some top Free Range/Organic meat, from animals I know that havent lived in shitty conditions.

The thing is as well, I heard your iron levels can drop rapidly and its hard to get all your amino acids from just veg and soy products which further concerns me. I don't want to get ridiculously big, im only about 5'8 but I wouldnt mind getting up to the 190/200 pound mark I achieved a coupla years back, but of course I was consuming a ton of animal flesh then.

I'd appreciate any thoughts, recomendations, opinions or suggestions and i'd really appreciate a bit of maturity and no obligatory pictures of burgers for the "lulz", im getting enough stick in real life as it is at the moment!

[ferocious bubble]

You've got to be joking.

Who gives a shit about how the animals live their lives? You're a human, top of the food chain. YOU EAT MEAT.

Besides meat = high source of protein = muscle building

Veggie diet = you'll grow a *****.

AAS board is not the place to be thinking about a vegetarian diet...

[ferocious bubble]

You've got to be joking.

Who gives a shit about how the animals live their lives? You're a human, top of the food chain. YOU EAT MEAT.

Besides meat = high source of protein = muscle building

Veggie diet = you'll grow a *****.

AAS board is not the place to be thinking about a vegetarian diet...

[terraj]

You've got to be joking.

Who gives a shit about how the animals live their lives? You're a human, top of the food chain. YOU EAT MEAT.

Besides meat = high source of protein = muscle building

Veggie diet = you'll grow a *****.

AAS board is not the place to be thinking about a vegetarian diet...

You are a fvcking fool! Don't open your mouth unless you have some knowledge to back it up!


Flagg, I believe it can be done, a lot of people will try to tell you otherwise.
I do cycle out all meats for short periods to give the digestive track a rest. Many years ago I was a full vege....and training was never better, energy 24/7, I did lose a little mass during that time but the sense of well being was quality. I think I will end up there again one day soon.

Would you include eggs and milk in the diet? Makes it a lot easier to get complete protien if that is the case.

Complete protein meals is what you need, can be done by combining foods, such as beans and brown rice, nuts and legumes....

[terraj]

.....

[terraj]

The Vegetarian Bodybuilder

Found this diet on the web a while back, might offer some ideas.

Sample Menu For Body Fat Loss (Non-ketogenic)

Avg. Bodyweight: 180 lbs

Posted Sept 2000


Qty
Carbs
Protein
Fat
Calories

Breakfast
Bread
1 slice
18.0
4.2
1.5
102.3

Egg White
from 4 egg
0.0
16.0
0.0
64.0

Whey More Ultra (WPI)
1 scoop
2.0
24.0
0.5
108.5

Veggie Breakfast Links
2 links
3.8
12.0
0.0
63.2

Total

23.8 Carbs
56.2 Protein
2.0 Fat
338.0 Calories









Post-Workout Mid Morning






Ultramet
1 pkg
23.0
40.0
2.0
270.0

Flax Oil
1 T.
0.0
0.0
13.0
117.0

Total

23.0
40.0
15.0
387.0

Lunch



Ratatouille

Tomato
1 dia 2.6"
5.8
1.4
0.2
30.6

Eggplant
1/2 C.
4.1
1.0
0.2
22.2

Olive Oil
1/2 T.
0.0
0.0
7.0
63.0

Yves Veggie Ground Round
2/3 C.
6.8
24.0
0.0
123.2

Onion
1/4 C
3.7
0.7
0.1
17.9

Zuchini
1/2 C
4.0
1.0
0.0
20.0

TOTAL RATATOUILLE

24.4
28.1
7.5
276.9

Total

24.4
28.1
7.5
276.9

Mid Afternoon Snack

Celery
3 stalk
4.8
0.0
4.8
0.4

Bread
1 slice
18.0
4.2
1.5
102.3

Almond Butter
1 T.
4.0
3.0
8.0
100.0

Total

26.8
7.2
14.3
264.7


Supper

BIG SALAD


Tomato
1 dia 2.6"
5.8
1.4
0.2
30.6

Lettuce
1C
1.4
0.7
0.1
9.3

Celery
2 stalk
3.2
0.8
0.0
16.0

Deli Slice
2 slices
1.3
7.5
0.0
35.0

Carrot
1 large
7.0
0.8
0.1
32.1

Walnuts
1 oz.
4.2
5.8
16.8
191.2

Green Pepper
1C
7.2
1.8
0.3
38.7

TOTAL SALAD

30.1
18.8
17.5
352.9

Boca Burger
1 burger
8.0
13.0
0.0
84.0

Total

38.1
31.8
17.5
436.9



Evening Snack

Strawberries
1C whole
12.5
1.0
0.7
60.3

Cott Cheese
1/2 C
6.7
15.0
1.3
98.5

Total

19.2
16.0
2.0
158.8



DAY TOTAL

155.3
179.3
58.3
1,862.3

[terraj]

Vegetarian Bodybuilder

Debunking the Myths



By Steve Holt

© Steve Holt 2004

Reprinted from Natural Bodybuilding & Fitness Magazine Feb/05



Today I was in the gym when a fellow came up to me and asked how I got to be so big. Now, I’m by no means big for a natural bodybuilder, but I have decent muscularity. I definitely look like a bodybuilder. I guess that’s what he meant to say.



When I mentioned I was a complete vegetarian and had not eaten any meat or fish in more than 23 years, he was really perplexed. And yet, why should this be so surprising?



So many myths surround the concept of vegetarianism. When people think about a vegetarian, they think perhaps of a skinny under-built string bean of a person, perhaps an unhealthy one at that. After all, aren’t vegetarians missing nutrients of some kind? Aren’t they weak, even unhealthy? Don’t they eventually become tired and rundown, lacking energy? Don’t they eventually return to a meat-based diet?



These and many other conceptions surrounding vegetarianism are simply untrue. Let’s have a look at some of the more common myths.



Myth 1. Vegetarians can’t get enough protein.



Protein is actually the least of my worries. As a vegetarian, my primary protein sources are dairy, eggs, grains, beans (including soy), and legumes. I also supplement with whey protein concentrate and isolate, like any other bodybuilder and many other athletes. While some of these foods contain so-called incomplete proteins (ie. insufficient quantities of all the essential amino acids), most have solid amino acid profiles and biological values. Some become complete proteins when eaten in combination with other protein foods during the course of the day, like rice (grain) in combination with lentils (legumes). I have no problem eating in excess of 200 grams of protein per day.



Myth 2. There are certain nutrients one can only get from eating meat.



This is probably more of a legitimate issue than Myth 1. Still, it is a simple matter to adjust the diet and/or supplementation in order to achieve the desired nutritional goals. The key nutrients that require greater monitoring and potential adjustment are the minerals iron and zinc, and the vitamin B12.



With regard to iron, plant-sourced iron is qualitatively different and more difficult to absorb than meat-sourced iron. However, adjustments can be made that will more than compensate for the difference. For example, foods which contain good quantities of vitamin C will significantly increase absorption of plant-sourced iron, just as coffee and tea will hinder absorption. In addition, dairy products and calcium supplements compete with iron for absorption, and should be taken separately. Foods rich in iron include lentils, beans, tofu, breakfast cereals, and eggs.



Regarding zinc, there are many plant foods which contain significant quantities of zinc, including legumes, nuts, seeds, and tofu. For vegetarians and meat-eating athletes alike, however, it is unlikely that the level of zinc in the diet would be ideal. Supplementation is recommended such that the total intake of zinc approximates 25 mg per day.



Vitamin B12 is known as the “dirty” vitamin, because its actual source is bacteria and other microorganisms. The primary B12 sources for vegetarians are dairy products and eggs. For vegetarian athletes, however, it is difficult to garner sufficient quantities of B12 from the diet, as levels in any food will vary so much as to become unreliable on an ongoing basis. Some supplementation is recommended.





Myth 3. Vegetarians are skinny. They cannot grow muscle mass the way a meat-eater can.



Before I started weight training, I really was skinny. As I approached my late 30s and my metabolism slowed, eating more calories only added bodyfat. When I first started going to the gym I did manage to grow a bit of muscle, but it was insignificant until I changed my diet. Once I added more dietary protein and supplemented with protein shakes, my muscle mass began to grow noticeably. Ultimately I found that taking 40-50 grams of whey protein in conjunction with 25-40 grams of fast-absorbing carbohydrates like dextrose immediately following an intense resistance workout was the single greatest act I could perform to increase hypertrophy, outside of the workouts themselves. As a vegetarian, this rule applies to me just as it would to anyone else. With 17” arms, 25” quads, a 44” chest and 31” waist, it’s been a long time since anyone called me “skinny”.



Myth 4. Vegetarians lack energy and strength.



This is probably more true of the typical meat-eater than the typical vegetarian. I still remember how I felt after eating a big meal of meat and potatoes – lethargic and ready to sleep! Probably due to the degree of energy required to digest such a meal, eating meat can result in a lower energy level.



Strength is a function of physical conditioning, and energy is primarily a function of diet and conditioning which result in the optimum regulation of the body’s systems. If a person lacks energy (assuming there is no pathology), the cause is usually related to the above. When an athlete complains that they are chronically fatigued, the most common reasons are hormonal, poor iron status, unstable insulin /blood sugar levels, or overtraining (which can result in all of the above). For a vegetarian, it is important to note that any of these problems can be solved without changing to a meat or fish diet. On a personal note, my energy levels are typically very high, unless I’ve unwisely depleted myself with stimulants.



Myth 5. Being vegetarian is not healthy.



This is the most untenable myth in terms of research. There is a veritable truckload of research indicating that the benefits of a vegetarian diet are numerous and significant, including lower incidence and even reversal of ischemic heart disease, significant improvements in blood cholesterol, lower incidence of several cancers, improvements in systolic and diastolic blood pressure, and lower incidence of diabetes being some of the most well-documented.



Myth 6. One cannot be competitive as a bodybuilder as a vegetarian.

On a level drug-tested competition field, there is no evidence to suggest a bodybuilder eating a vegetarian diet cannot build the same muscularity, symmetry, proportion, and definition as a bodybuilder eating a meat diet. Even this 50 year old writer managed to place 1st in the Grand Masters in 2004 at the Ontario National Qualifier. (Shameless plug.) Bodybuilding is a function of optimal training coupled with optimal diet (assuming decent genetics).



So What Is The Optimal Bodybuilder Diet?



Whether designed to build muscle mass or to preferentially cut bodyfat, the optimal diet can be summed up as being the correct caloric intake with correct proportions of macronutrients, with those macronutrients being derived from a wide variety of foods which provide sufficient micronutrients to service the body’s requirements. This is not the exclusive domain of the meat-based diet and in fact the evidence suggests that a vegetarian diet can be formulated to achieve the same results, perhaps with better long term health consequences.







Steve Holt

The Vegetarian Bodybuilder ™

[danielli]

Could you raise you own chickens and hunt your own meat? That way at least you'd know they were not in "concentration camps".

Seriously, if you shoot a couple of deer, or an elk you can fill you and your neighbors freezer with meat for months if not a year!

[Flagg]

@ Ferocious Bubble, mate I didn't come here to talk about food chains! I explained myself in order to look for alternatives, not be told by some newb that's only been here 5 minutes telling me I shouldn't be on this site! Aren't you the guy that seems to get younger and younger in every thread you post in??

@Terraj, thanks for all that stuff mate, i had a quick look at your posts before class this morning and im going to try and out together an average daily meal plan, once ive got something worked out i'll put it up for inspection. Thanks for all that stuff by the way.

@Danielli, I dont live in North America im afraid! I'm not too against eating free range or organic meat/poultry, but as you guys know that stuff isn't cheap. That's why I thought I might give myself a day or two during the week where i can eat some top grade quality stuff, but the majority of what I eat (for now) is all veggie/soy stuff!

[RFeyn]

Who gives a shit about how the animals live their lives? You're a human,

Hahaha, complete dipshit. I love that sentence. Idiot must live in a hole or something.

I'm not vegetarian but the only non-fish meat I eat right now is chicken, and if I had the money I'd go for that free range stuff too. Cows and stuff have almost identical biology to us except for their brain size, they can suffer and be sad just like the animal homo sapien can.

As for the diet, eat egg whites twice per day (50g protein), (and if you start eating fish, which I'm pretty sure don't suffer too much...) tuna (~35g per can), salmon (another 30g), whey PWO (50g), casein at night (another ~50g). That's about 215g protein right there, without even including nuts, soy, beans, protein from veggies/grains, etc. Most salmon has almost no mercury, and chunk light tuna is also pretty low. So you could easily get healthy and buff, probably not super huge, which as you said you do not want.

Here's a vegetarian:
http://scoobysworkshop.com/aboutme.htm

(although he only converted a few years ago)

[Flagg]

Hahaha, complete dipshit. I love that sentence. Idiot must live in a hole or something.

I'm not vegetarian but the only non-fish meat I eat right now is chicken, and if I had the money I'd go for that free range stuff too. Cows and stuff have almost identical biology to us except for their brain size, they can suffer and be sad just like the animal homo sapien can.

As for the diet, eat egg whites twice per day (50g protein), (and if you start eating fish, which I'm pretty sure don't suffer too much...) tuna (~35g per can), salmon (another 30g), whey PWO (50g), casein at night (another ~50g). That's about 215g protein right there, without even including nuts, soy, beans, protein from veggies/grains, etc. Most salmon has almost no mercury, and chunk light tuna is also pretty low. So you could easily get healthy and buff, probably not super huge, which as you said you do not want.

Here's a vegetarian:
http://scoobysworkshop.com/aboutme.htm

(although he only converted a few years ago)

Yeah i'll probably go back to fish, my main concern is trying to keep up a high calorie intake each day. And that Scooby guy is something else, he looks amazing at 45!!

[energizer bunny]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/vm7.htm

hav a look at this mate,,,,,just a brief intro for you.

[quietasamouse]

I'm having the same sorts of problems. 17 year veg, looking for protein solutions. It's not that the diet is impossible to pull off, it's that the shakes get really boring.

I've considered the one-day-a-week of meat, but just dont think I'm ready to go back there. Maybe if I catch/kill/clean for myself....

[Flagg]

Quietmouse, finding protein sources isn't that hard i've found, it's calorie content that bothered/s me. However it isn't impossible and the link Bunny provided (thanks mate) is pretty helpful, for example eating lots of soy means you'll be getting a decent amount of glutamine as well.

Meat free and veggie alternatives to meat is pretty good as well and some of the meat free burgers/sausages are not as bad as I thought they would be, nor are they unhealthy (most of them), most of them being very high in protein.

And yes, the shakes are boring. Do you take just whey? Maybe incorporate a weight gainer to help build up some extra calories?

[Twist]

Soy lacks Methionine, this is very important for protein synthesis and immune function. there are many byproducts of meat eating other than the nutritional value you get from the meat itself. Fro example, Soy will not create gluthione as a byproduct and therefore does not get the most important antioxidant that clears the body of many harmful things like carcinogens. This is just one example of many. I am not going to even go into the "anti-nutrients" of soy (yes that is really what it is called)... To sum it up soy has a bioavailability of 74 (really really low).

Sorry bro but there are a rare few who can grow on peanut butter sandwiches and mayo, but if you can't grow on that then there is a small chance you will grow on all veggies. Dairy will have to be included at the least.

[Twist]

I would like to clarify that a veggie cleanse is a great idea, however all veggie for too long requires injections of vitamins etc. It is unhealthy. It is preached about for longevity etc. but there is much to go against it. If I had more time I would write two pages of thigns that are bad about veggie diets. I have some veggie clients, they are not doing too well (health wise). they look great, but they are very prone to disease etc. I am now trying to undo years of harmful work. Our friend who wrote the article above is only 45 I think (and most likely on steroids ), far too young to see the negative aspects yet. Be smart and eat some meat every day. If you pm me to remind me I can help you come up with a very successful low animal protein diet, but you do need animal protein. eggs can be a majority but chicken eod and steak once a weak is a must I would say.

GL

[RFeyn]

You don't have to write two pages if you don't want but I'd love to hear all the bad effects of a vegetarian diet.

[zxz]

Flagg,

A vegetarian diet is compatible with body building. You just need to know what foods will give you the best protein, and I'm going to tell you. If you have any questions, let me know, and I will answer them for you. First things first: eat a ton of protein, at least 1 gram per pound of body weight per day, and if you can eat 1.5 grams per pound of body weight per day.

I'm a vegetarian and these are my protein sources:

1. Egg beaters or egg whites (1 cup = 120 calories, 0 g fat, 4 g carbs, 24 g protein) -- egg beaters can be bought at walmart, super target, or pretty much any grocery store -- this should be your primary source of protein.

2. Fat Free Kraft Cheddar cheese (1/2 cup = 90 calories, 0 g fat, 4 g carbs, 18 g protein) -- this cheese can be bought at walmart or super target -- the carbs it contains (like with egg beaters are not sugars, which is a good thing -- you can also find other varieties of cheese that are Fat Free at natural food stores but they are usually more expensive

3. Whey Protein (1 scoop = 120 calories, 2 g fat, 2 g carbs, 23 g protein) -- I use EAS because it is both good and cheap -- you can buy this online, at Costco, or just about anywhere

4. Seitan (Wheat protien) (1/2 cup = 210 calories, 2 g fat, 8 g carbs, 24 g protein) -- the brand of Seitan I use is West Soy -- I buy it at a natural foods store called Good Earth -- you may be able to find it at a natural foods store or online -- it has more carbs then other protein sources but they are not sugars -- it is good if you want to get a lot of calories and bulk -- it is expensive, but it is a nice change of pace as it tastes very different from the other proteins

The next three proteins have some sugars, but I think they are low enough in sugar that I include them in my diet:

5. Fat Free Cottage Cheese (1 cup = 160 calories, 0 g fat, 12 g carbs, 28 g protein) -- the brands I use are Great Value or Market Fresh, you can find them at Walmart or Super Target, other stores have other brands -- try to eat Fat Free Cottage Cheese only on the meals before or right after your workout because of the sugars it contains

8. Oikos Greek Yogurt Fat Free (1 cup = 130 calories, 0 g fat, 9 g carbs, 23 g protein) -- You can find this at Walmart -- make sure you get a brand that is low in carbs because all the carbs come from sugar, Oikos is the one I use -- because of the sugars, like with Fat Free Cottage Cheese try to eat this stuff in your pre and post work out meals

7. Kraft Fat Free Philadelphia Cream Cheese (2 tbsp = 30 calories, 0 g fat, 2 g carbs, 4 g protein

OTHER TIPS: 1) Don't eat soy products, they contain substances that act like estrogens in your body, plus they aren't that great of a protein to began with 2) try to find high protein breads and tortillas -- these are usually marketed as low carb, but to find good ones you will have to read the lables, will likely have to pay a lot, and have to find them at a good natural food store 3) You can drink skim milk but it has a ton of sugar so only drink it right after you work out and do so moderately (1 cup = 90 calories, 0 g fat, 13 g carbs, 8 g protein) 4) get your other nutrients (i.e. carbs and fats) from vegetable sources that are high in protein (i.e. beans (non-soy), lentils, Quinoa, oatmeal, nuts, whole grains, peas, broccoli, spinach etc.)

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions

[Flagg]

Thanks for that stuff ZXZ, how do you cope with eating so much cheese though!

On the subject of cheese, Greek Feta cheese is pretty high weighing in at about 16grams of protein per 100 grams of cheese, though this stuff can be quite high in fat so maybe look at some low fat stuff.