Need advice on am cardio

I workout first thing in the morning, 5:30am. For the past 2 years i've done 30 mins of cardio directly following my workout. But for those of you who know me, you know that I HATE cardio and really struggle with it.

Well, 2 days a week I have the opportunity to take a spin class which is pretty intense cardio, and alot more fun then just mindlessly walking/running on a treadmill. I can really use the change. I like reserving my energy for my workout and doing cardio after, but it's a minor drawback and it's only 2 days, so i'll deal with that, do the spin and my workout directly after.

My dilemma is this; currently, I eat at 4:30am, then start my workout an hour later. On these 2 days of spin, should I still eat a meal first, or should I do the cardio on an empty stomach? If I do it on an empty stomach, I will also have to workout on an empty stomach which isn't ideal at all, ESPECIALLY after being wiped out from intense cardio. So I need to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Eat first and lose some of the effectiveness of the cardio, but workout suffers less, or do not eat, maximize the effectiveness of the cardio, but workout suffers alot. Keep in mind fat loss is the primary goal, but I DO NOT want to lose LBM if at all possible.

Could I at least slam a quick protein shake before the cardio?

I'd love to hear from D7M and Fireguy on this. =)

Eat a Protein/fat meal before the cardio maybe...

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Originally Posted by Bryan2

Eat a Protein/fat meal before the cardio maybe...

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This.

What is your goal?

Forget the meal for a minute. I'm strongly against cardio, especially this intense, before training. It is literally impossible and I don't care who you are, to be able to train hard afterwords...period.

Personally, I'd either not eat, spin, and treat those days as my off days OR somehow finagle my schedule to come back at night and train.

Even exhausted after a day of work, you'll have more energy after 5-6 meals than post cardio.

Just my $.03.

I'm all for morning cardio. I do the stairs from 8 weeks out on in in empty...but never train afterwards.

Just saw losing fat Is your goal...fine. Take those days off from the gym.

Just to sidetrack a little, one thing that I do when I am really not in the mood for cardio is do 20 min blocks. Get a drink and come back to it. It gives you something to look forward to instead of doing a full amount all at once.

I agree with lbsomiron, why not just make these your two non training days with weights? If you are truly looking for the lesser of two evils eat some protein prior to and maybe a small amount of fat.

Thanks for all of your feedback guys. Unfortunately with my schedule I can only make it to the gym on these days, and only in the morning, so I have to make it work and do my cardio and workout all in one shot. I do plan to add an extra weekend day of just cardio and maybe some abs.

Fireguy, that's what I figured you'd say, glad to get that confirmation. I'll probably just slam a quick shake and maybe a tbsp of natty PB or a serving of nuts. Then i'll be good and hungry for my PWO meal after my weight training session.

@LBSOME - I hear you bro, and agree that my weight training will not be as intense as it would be pre-cardio. But keep in mind when I walk into the gym at 5:30am, i'm tired, stiff as a board and my workouts already suffer somewhat from that (the rare occasions when I get to workout later in the day, I am MUCH more intense) - so the cardio might actually help in that at the very least, i'll be very well warmed up and loose.

I'm trying to look at the brightside, but my biggest concern was the meal situation.

man, i just admire you for being strict to a 530am schedule. thats armed forces discipline there.

i can never work out or even think of doing cardio on an empty stomach. i have to atleast have a shot of oatmeal or raisin toast and cream of wheat. :)

but before you do the pain of hard work on empty stomach think about this.......
lots of these guys read cutler and coleman and some really shredded up guys diets and habits in the magazines, and they adopt them as their own, and arent even in the league to see the same results from simple variations. know what im saying? take a look at some shredded happily intermediate body builders that have no interest in IFBB, and look at their diets compared to IFBB. i can promise you there are some incredibly shredded guys out there that will say eat something, eat some oatmeal before you cardio so heavy on an empty stomach. just because some die hard is worshiping coleman and his diet, and posts thats the only way to go, doesnt mean its the right time for that for anyone other than coleman. if your not eating his calories and protein on his schedule, you cant employ just random nuances of his regimen. know what im sayin? and lots of these guys post these things as if they work for any scenario at all. thats just not true. number one, the body should never feel hunger, and if your hungry on the spin...... your anti anabolic.

i just wanted to put that out there, because i know how strict you are on diet and discipline. and you never turn away good advice. but some of what i read i dont agree with at all. you should never ever be uncomfortable in the stomach at any given time. if someone tells me that the wheat bread with thin light honey on it or banana before a cardio is killing me. i wont believe it. ive been doing this too long. tell me my whole diet can use reworking, ok. i am a listener. but i dont want someone to tell me that toast i had before my spin destroyed me. :D

but i could be wrong, im not a gynecologist. i only play one in adult movies.

LoL thanks Superbird!

Yes, I agree with you in that I know alot of people who follow the pro's diets like gospel as you said. Then they sit back and scratch their head as to why they don't look like a pro. Agreed, we all need to figure out what works for us, we're individuals.

The am cardio on an empty stomach idea has always been hotley debated on these boards. Logically, after sleeping all night chances are one will already be in a catabolic state. Adding cardio to that equation seems to = imminent LBM loss. However, I believe having some protein in the morning will help break that fast and rev up the metabolism a bit. I really wasn't planning on doing it on a completely empty stomach; I was more concerned with a carb meal prior to cardio, the same as I do when I workout first. I just don't want to be eating too many carbs which I feel will negate or compromise the effectiveness of my cardio. I know it works for some people such as yourself, but I get fat looking at carbs.... literally. My body is VERY stubborn in both dropping fat and adding muscle, so it will always be a huge struggle for me and I am trying to make the best of it!

FOr shitz and giigles bro, let me see you current schedule.

Believe it or not (and call me crazy) it's not ALL diet...I'm learning that. I got two guys that I compete with who are now going at this 1 meal a day, anabolic window, type of shinanagan and believe it or not, it's working.

In addition, I'm a CPA. I train first thing in the morning (on empty) Jan-APril and AUgust - October.

I take some bcaas, a Starbux, and I'm ready to rock.

I'll bet I can figure something out. One thing, what about a 5 minute warm-up , train, and THEN 60 minutes of cardio?

If you get a decent NO2 product (try Jack3d), the world changes at 5am....just sayn'.

Let me see what you got.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

LoL thanks Superbird!


The am cardio on an empty stomach idea has always been hotley debated on these boards. Logically, after sleeping all night chances are one will already be in a catabolic state. Adding cardio to that equation seems to = imminent LBM loss. However, I believe having some protein in the morning will help break that fast and rev up the metabolism a bit. I really wasn't planning on doing it on a completely empty stomach; I was more concerned with a carb meal prior to cardio, the same as I do when I workout first. I just don't want to be eating too many carbs which I feel will negate or compromise the effectiveness of my cardio.

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ok. well, thats in line with the jist of what i was saying. reflecting on "tell me my whole diet can be reworked or modified" but not that the toast itself broke my back. i cant see just one minor nuance of your day breaking your back. its things like this that i really wish i could get a solid code breaker on some kind of radical spiking. i know youll get it worked out like science. i just hate to think that you actually have a straw breaking your back. i fix my shakes and things for pounding down in a minutes time when i get up to pee around 2am and 4am. ive had a post on here in diet, where i got up at 4am just to eat a can of tuna with soy and lemon with cold water, make a reply in a thread of interest and then hustle back to sleep. i just made that a way of my life a long time ago to eat in the midnight hours and stay anabolic. but, we all have different speeds and goals and tolerances. :D

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Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON

I'll bet I can figure something out. One thing, what about a 5 minute warm-up , train, and THEN 60 minutes of cardio?

If you get a decent NO2 product (try Jack3d), the world changes at 5am....just sayn'.

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i have to try this jack3d stuff. its getting so much rave im reading. sounds like what i need. tomorrow i have to shop for this stuff.

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Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON

FOr shitz and giigles bro, let me see you current schedule.

Believe it or not (and call me crazy) it's not ALL diet...I'm learning that. I got two guys that I compete with who are now going at this 1 meal a day, anabolic window, type of shinanagan and believe it or not, it's working.

In addition, I'm a CPA. I train first thing in the morning (on empty) Jan-APril and AUgust - October.

I take some bcaas, a Starbux, and I'm ready to rock.

I'll bet I can figure something out. One thing, what about a 5 minute warm-up , train, and THEN 60 minutes of cardio?

If you get a decent NO2 product (try Jack3d), the world changes at 5am....just sayn'.

Let me see what you got.

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What schedule are you referring to - my daily life schedule, or my current gym routine schedule? Sorry, I'm just not clear!

I do realize it's not all about diet, there are many factors that work synergistically with eachother. But I do believe diet is a BIG part of it. These 2 guys you're talking about - they're eating 1 meal/day PWO and that's it?

I keep hearing about this Jack3d as well; I need to give it a shot! RE: your suggestion about 5 minutes warmup etc - the spin class is at a scheduled time (consequently 5:45am, same time I normally train), so I have no choice but to take it first thing, before anything else. Remember that this will only be 2 days out of the week.

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Originally Posted by SuperBird

ok. well, thats in line with the jist of what i was saying. reflecting on "tell me my whole diet can be reworked or modified" but not that the toast itself broke my back. i cant see just one minor nuance of your day breaking your back. its things like this that i really wish i could get a solid code breaker on some kind of radical spiking. i know youll get it worked out like science. i just hate to think that you actually have a straw breaking your back. i fix my shakes and things for pounding down in a minutes time when i get up to pee around 2am and 4am. ive had a post on here in diet, where i got up at 4am just to eat a can of tuna with soy and lemon with cold water, make a reply in a thread of interest and then hustle back to sleep. i just made that a way of my life a long time ago to eat in the midnight hours and stay anabolic. but, we all have different speeds and goals and tolerances. :D



i have to try this jack3d stuff. its getting so much rave im reading. sounds like what i need. tomorrow i have to shop for this stuff.

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Agreed, I need to pick up some potassium and taurine supps this week to help with the clen sides; i'm going to check out Jack3d too!

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Agreed, I need to pick up some potassium and taurine supps this week to help with the clen sides; i'm going to check out Jack3d too!

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yea i just grabbed a mega bottle of potassium and zinc myself. today i'll go back for jack3d, i hope they have it. ive read that the active ingredient is geranium or taurine. so if i cant find jack3d here, i'll go for the active ingredient. take the next best thing. or maybe they have noxplod. but i really have to try the jack3d.

i had to back off the clen just a bit, i found out it was the clen that was fatiguing my muscles so much that i couldnt clean my ears without my biceps getting sore that fast, even to towel my head off. backed it down to 100mcg and the muscle fatigue went away. i think my muscles were just drying out. so i also upped my potassium and zinc and now everythings cool. it went away no sooner than i made the adjustments. but im not on the clen now. but your other thread log has got me thinking maybe i'll go back on and see how dried and shredded i can hold interest in getting. i love being surrounded by determination. it motivates me to push a little harder, go a little farther.

whew.... time for me to go back to bed. just got up to pee and down a protein shake.

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Originally Posted by SuperBird

whew.... time for me to go back to bed. just got up to pee and down a protein shake.

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LoL, where in the world are you? Or do you just work night shift?

I don't think your meal before cardio matters at all. As long as it fits the diet let the deficit do the work.

I would actually recommend you eat carbs otherwise you are riding the border of lbm loss.

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Originally Posted by Twist

I would actually recommend you eat carbs otherwise you are riding the border of lbm loss.

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I would never recommend eating carbs prior to cardio (and I am a pro carb guy). Lipolysis does not like to occur when there is insulin present.

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Originally Posted by FireGuy1

I would never recommend eating carbs prior to cardio (and I am a pro carb guy). Lipolysis does not like to occur when there is insulin present.

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On point....

There's this new fad going around. It's a 6 hour window of feeding coupled with an 18 hour fast. At first I was 100% against it, but two of my guys have proven that it's working. Let me see how far they get before I introduce the details.

For now, I'm sticking with the 6-7 meals a day.

As far ad your morning meal, you'll be surprised how quickly you adapt to no food preworkout if you decided to go that route. I have made some solid physique improvements with nothing but bcaas. It's the post wo meal that becomes crucial.

On non-spinning days, can you do cardio after training? That's optimal.

Whatever you decide, keep the intensity stoked and you'll be fine.

Don't buy Jack3d. I've pumped it up so much that it can't possibly live up to the expectations. Lol.

I'm kidding. Give it a go.

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Originally Posted by FireGuy1

I would never recommend eating carbs prior to cardio (and I am a pro carb guy). Lipolysis does not like to occur when there is insulin present.

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True but after a long nights sleep he will have lowered his glycogen stores (especially with the cardio and the deficit) and with a low gi carb I doubt much of an insulin spike will occur. I mean we want an insulin spike to stop from burning through LBM, but its not supposed to be a candy bar... He would have to have elevated blood glucose levels for the body to release insulin and after a fast and a low gi food... Fire what do you think?

PS. Remember this is resistance training too guys, not just cardio.

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Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON

On point....

There's this new fad going around. It's a 6 hour window of feeding coupled with an 18 hour fast. At first I was 100% against it, but two of my guys have proven that it's working. Let me see how far they get before I introduce the details.

For now, I'm sticking with the 6-7 meals a day.

As far ad your morning meal, you'll be surprised how quickly you adapt to no food preworkout if you decided to go that route. I have made some solid physique improvements with nothing but bcaas. It's the post wo meal that becomes crucial.

On non-spinning days, can you do cardio after training? That's optimal.

Whatever you decide, keep the intensity stoked and you'll be fine.

Don't buy Jack3d. I've pumped it up so much that it can't possibly live up to the expectations. Lol.

I'm kidding. Give it a go.

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LoL just what we need, another school of though!!!

Yea, I can and do - do cardio after my workout on non-spin days.

As for Jack3d, i'm all in! After talking about it yesterday, I researched and it sounds pretty promising - exactly what I need for a 5:30am workout. The only thing i'm worried about is that i'm currently running clen, and I don't want to 'OD' so to speak - clen already elevates heart rate, blood pressure, CNS stimulation - basically all the stuff Jack3d does. Do you think it's a bad idea to stack those?

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

LoL, where in the world are you? Or do you just work night shift?

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Im in southeast asia. i live here for awhile now. so when its 4pm in the USA, its 4am here where ever Im at.

thats why im always barking about finding good clean protein here. chicken or pork sticks and rice! whew hew.

so when you see my posts at 330pm, im up in the middle of the night just to chug down a protein shake or a can of tuna, pee, and back to bed after i make a post in an interesting thread. i try to stay anabolic literally every three hours of the day.

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Originally Posted by Twist

True but after a long nights sleep he will have lowered his glycogen stores (especially with the cardio and the deficit) and with a low gi carb I doubt much of an insulin spike will occur. I mean we want an insulin spike to stop from burning through LBM, but its not supposed to be a candy bar... He would have to have elevated blood glucose levels for the body to release insulin and after a fast and a low gi food... Fire what do you think?

PS. Remember this is resistance training too guys, not just cardio.

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I was speaking just to the cardio aspect of this. I think the loss of LBM when doing cardio is greatly exaggerated. I have stated before that if this were true I should be down to around 140lbs by now.

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Originally Posted by FireGuy1

I was speaking just to the cardio aspect of this. I think the loss of LBM when doing cardio is greatly exaggerated. I have stated before that if this were true I should be down to around 140lbs by now.

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I agree with you, I don't even think an hour of cardio (especially low - mid intensity) has very much of an impact on lbm at all. I have experimented with myself (because I drop weight very easily) and cardio drops mainly fat for me, whereas if I workout without a good 2 meals in me for 6 days I lose weight fast.

But GB is doing resistance training and cardio in the same day, after a fast, before the days activities, with a higher than normal calorie deficit.

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Originally Posted by Twist

I agree with you, I don't even think an hour of cardio (especially low - mid intensity) has very much of an impact on lbm at all. I have experimented with myself (because I drop weight very easily) and cardio drops mainly fat for me, whereas if I workout without a good 2 meals in me for 6 days I lose weight fast.

But GB is doing resistance training and cardio in the same day, after a fast, before the days activities, with a higher than normal calorie deficit.

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x 2 - if your diet is in check cardio won't affect LBM. I do cardio for an hour in the morn (empty stomach) and an hour in the evening and it's never affected my LBM. I do twice a day only when cutting and when I reach single digit I reduce to just morn sessions only. In short, doing cardio on an empty stomach will cut that fat fast! For me it’s about personal choice, I could do cardio a few times a week and watch the fat slowly drop off over a 3-4 month period, or I can do it twice a day and reach my objective of single digit in 4-6 weeks!

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Originally Posted by FireGuy1

I was speaking just to the cardio aspect of this. I think the loss of LBM when doing cardio is greatly exaggerated. I have stated before that if this were true I should be down to around 140lbs by now.

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I would agree with this. For the past 9 1/2 weeks ive been getting up at 5:20 and doing 30 mins of cardio 5/6 days a week on an empty stomach. After work i weight train for a minimum of an hour 5 days a week. I havent lost a pound in weight but have dropped from a size 48 waist size to a 34.

GB i think i might be missing the point here

Why dont u eat ur first meal - train with weights - and then do the spin

This may mean u need to get up 30mins earlier or sumat but no biggie if ur already getting up at that time

Or just say fvck the spin, eat ur first meal train with weights and then do ur CV as normal

I know its nice to mix things up but i wouldnt consider putting cardio ( especially a high intensity spin class ) before a weights workout, never

I think spin then weights is counter-productive in so many ways

I would keep urself fresh for the weights and do cardio PWO

Any freedays why not do sum cardio at home, jog/walk around the block, do a bodyweight workout, you can do lots at home so u dont need to worry about getting to the gym for CV IMO

You could also do some CV on ur lunch break if u can eat ur lunch while ur at work and use ur whole break for CV

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Originally Posted by baseline_9

GB i think i might be missing the point here

Why dont u eat ur first meal - train with weights - and then do the spin

This may mean u need to get up 30mins earlier or sumat but no biggie if ur already getting up at that time

Or just say fvck the spin, eat ur first meal train with weights and then do ur CV as normal

I know its nice to mix things up but i wouldnt consider putting cardio ( especially a high intensity spin class ) before a weights workout, never

I think spin then weights is counter-productive in so many ways

I would keep urself fresh for the weights and do cardio PWO

Any freedays why not do sum cardio at home, jog/walk around the block, do a bodyweight workout, you can do lots at home so u dont need to worry about getting to the gym for CV IMO

You could also do some CV on ur lunch break if u can eat ur lunch while ur at work and use ur whole break for CV

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Yes, I brought this to the table. I 'think' spinning starts when the gym opens.

Given his goal of retaining mass and dieting, I'm ok with his approad. Yes, it's not the best scenerio, but not everyone can make it to the gym twice a day and running? Fo-get it.

My sincere suggestion was to drop the meals before hand completly. It's overrated. Pop some BCAAs, drink a NO supp (notice I didn't brand name, but you know) and have a good PW meal.

Haven't tried it in forever, but some of my guys sip Xtend during their workout Some other drink Waxy Maize - I tried this and all it did was leave me feeling blah.

The only way to tell is to try it and see what works for him/you.

Then report back and we can fix, if applicable, what is broken.

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Originally Posted by oker

x 2 - if your diet is in check cardio won't affect LBM. I do cardio for an hour in the morn (empty stomach) and an hour in the evening and it's never affected my LBM. I do twice a day only when cutting and when I reach single digit I reduce to just morn sessions only. In short, doing cardio on an empty stomach will cut that fat fast! For me it’s about personal choice, I could do cardio a few times a week and watch the fat slowly drop off over a 3-4 month period, or I can do it twice a day and reach my objective of single digit in 4-6 weeks!

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I had my first trial run today. I couldn't bare the thought of doing cardio and then working out after on an empty stomach - we're talking a total of 3 hours after I wake up in the morning. So at 4:30am I had a protein shake (30g) and 2 whole jumbo eggs (14/2/10) so very minimal carbs. I don't imagine this will affect the effectiveness of the cardio much if at all, right?

The good news was the spin class was great in that I was sweating within 5 minutes and it didn't stop until the end (I did 45 mins) - that almost never happens when I do my own cardio, because I slack off so much.

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Originally Posted by Rizdizzle

I would agree with this. For the past 9 1/2 weeks ive been getting up at 5:20 and doing 30 mins of cardio 5/6 days a week on an empty stomach. After work i weight train for a minimum of an hour 5 days a week. I havent lost a pound in weight but have dropped from a size 48 waist size to a 34.

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Congrats, that's amazing progress!

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Originally Posted by baseline_9

GB i think i might be missing the point here

Why dont u eat ur first meal - train with weights - and then do the spin

This may mean u need to get up 30mins earlier or sumat but no biggie if ur already getting up at that time

Or just say fvck the spin, eat ur first meal train with weights and then do ur CV as normal

I know its nice to mix things up but i wouldnt consider putting cardio ( especially a high intensity spin class ) before a weights workout, never

I think spin then weights is counter-productive in so many ways

I would keep urself fresh for the weights and do cardio PWO

Any freedays why not do sum cardio at home, jog/walk around the block, do a bodyweight workout, you can do lots at home so u dont need to worry about getting to the gym for CV IMO

You could also do some CV on ur lunch break if u can eat ur lunch while ur at work and use ur whole break for CV

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Yea, the problem is the spin class is 5:45am; I simply cannot get to the gym any earlier to do my workout, although this would solve the entire problem. I'd have to get up around 3am to make it work, and i'm just not willing to do that - I need SOMETHING of a sane life!

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Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON

Yes, I brought this to the table. I 'think' spinning starts when the gym opens.

Given his goal of retaining mass and dieting, I'm ok with his approad. Yes, it's not the best scenerio, but not everyone can make it to the gym twice a day and running? Fo-get it.

My sincere suggestion was to drop the meals before hand completly. It's overrated. Pop some BCAAs, drink a NO supp (notice I didn't brand name, but you know) and have a good PW meal.

Haven't tried it in forever, but some of my guys sip Xtend during their workout Some other drink Waxy Maize - I tried this and all it did was leave me feeling blah.

The only way to tell is to try it and see what works for him/you.

Then report back and we can fix, if applicable, what is broken.

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Thanks bro, I will closely monitor myself and make adjustments as needed. In case you didn't see above, I ate a protein shake and 2 whole eggs an hour before my cardio session today. I doubt that would affect me much, what do you think?

You got it bro - when you upload pics, we can make suggestions. I have a pre-written diet, but Steve (that's my nutrionalist) mixes things up almost to the point of nausium (at least the last 8 weeks). We up fats, we have cheat meals, we reduce carbs, we increase water yadada. Don't sweat the details. Let's do this and revise as we go.

As far of the meal goes. Call me crazy, but (how far is the gym?)...I'm really thinking we try to wake up 10 minutes before you have to leave, pop some bcaas, spin and then train then have your shake ready when the weights drop.

On no spinning days, we do the same thing except we train FIRST than do (I say) 30 minutes of the stair mill. You have one? If not, you may need more like 45 of an elliptical. FOr me, it's stair mill #1, incline treadmill (10 degrees and 3.0) #2.

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Originally Posted by LBSOMEIRON

You got it bro - when you upload pics, we can make suggestions. I have a pre-written diet, but Steve (that's my nutrionalist) mixes things up almost to the point of nausium (at least the last 8 weeks). We up fats, we have cheat meals, we reduce carbs, we increase water yadada. Don't sweat the details. Let's do this and revise as we go.

As far of the meal goes. Call me crazy, but (how far is the gym?)...I'm really thinking we try to wake up 10 minutes before you have to leave, pop some bcaas, spin and then train then have your shake ready when the weights drop.

On no spinning days, we do the same thing except we train FIRST than do (I say) 30 minutes of the stair mill. You have one? If not, you may need more like 45 of an elliptical. FOr me, it's stair mill #1, incline treadmill (10 degrees and 3.0) #2.

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LoL I hear you, this stuff can REALLY get out of control fast with all the little nuances!

The gym is 10 mins away, tops. So you really think I should drop all solid food pre-cardio huh? When you say have the shake ready for when the weights drop, do you mean before weights (right after cardio) or PWO?

Yea, we have 2 stair masters in my gym, and they're the good ones with the real revolving stairs. They're my #1 cardio choice as well, with treadmill coming in 2nd and then ellipticals, rowing, etc.