Old guy making a comeback...

[First6]

Thanks T. Glad to be back. buuuuuutttt unfortionatly I am gone again. Won't be back until Thurs night. (def falls into the category of "things that suck")

[gbrice75]

Talk to u soon First, stay strong brotha!

[tbody66]

Haven't worked out this week and doesn't look like I'll get to either. Oh well, life, gotta love it, use it to rest up and grow hard on next week.

[gbrice75]

Haven't worked out this week and doesn't look like I'll get to either. Oh well, life, gotta love it, use it to rest up and grow hard on next week.

THIS! Sometimes a week off can be the best thing for you, and growth explodes again when you get back on. I'm due one shortly myself.

[Damienm05]

I've always wondered if it would be a good plateau buster to structure your split in a way where you do every major group oncer per week in a 5-day series, while leaving out a single upper-body group each week (arms, chest, back, delts, never legs). Maybe it's hairbrained but I've always made gains coming off a week off.

[gbrice75]

There might be something to it. I don't see how an extra week's rest can hurt anything. That muscle group would be primed, 100% recovered and thensome, and ready to kill.

[bigcwithane]

I know after a week off I cone back stronger than ever. I'm do pretty soon from lifting but I still need the cardio. I'm going on vacation to Arizona then up to Colorado so ill be drinking only protein shakes and whatever healthy good bbing food I can find.

Hey t are you gonna make me a new workout until we start the comp. Or should I throw one I have up my sleeve together until then

[tbody66]

I know after a week off I cone back stronger than ever. I'm do pretty soon from lifting but I still need the cardio. I'm going on vacation to Arizona then up to Colorado so ill be drinking only protein shakes and whatever healthy good bbing food I can find.

Hey t are you gonna make me a new workout until we start the comp. Or should I throw one I have up my sleeve together until then

I think you could come up with something fun for the next two or three weeks.

There might be something to it. I don't see how an extra week's rest can hurt anything. That muscle group would be primed, 100% recovered and thensome, and ready to kill.

I've always wondered if it would be a good plateau buster to structure your split in a way where you do every major group oncer per week in a 5-day series, while leaving out a single upper-body group each week (arms, chest, back, delts, never legs). Maybe it's hairbrained but I've always made gains coming off a week off.

Okay, how insane does this sound???

I've been thinking about doing this over the course of an entire year:

8 wks 5x5's (example - 315lb squats, 275lb bench presses, 315 deadlifts - this is about where I am right now) followed by
8 wks 6x6's (my theory is you should be able to handle the same weights you did for the 5x5's) take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 7x7's (same weight) take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 8x8's take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 9x9's take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 10x10's

If my theory of progressive strength training was correct you would be doing 10x10's with the weight you can currently only do 5x5's with, then drop back to the 5x5's for the next year and you should be 50 - 100lbs heavier on every lift? Problems with my hypothesis, yes, but doable to a degree??? Absolutely, you should also be able to constantly shock the muscles into growth, especially if you are only doing it for the core lifts and keep the supporting or secondary bodypart lifts to a mix of exercises that are changing with each eight week routine.

[Twist]

I don't think that will work bro. I heard some story once that went something like, "if you carry a cow up a hill everyday since it is little you will be able to carry it up the hill when it is grown." now I took that way out of context but you get the point. It doesnt work like that. It's not that you won't make gains, but I would go about it differently. You might be able to hit 10x5 though. Still highly doubt it.

How are gains and everything coming along bro?

[gbrice75]

I don't think that will work bro. I heard some story once that went something like, "if you carry a cow up a hill everyday since it is little you will be able to carry it up the hill when it is grown." now I took that way out of context but you get the point. It doesnt work like that. It's not that you won't make gains, but I would go about it differently. You might be able to hit 10x5 though. Still highly doubt it.

How are gains and everything coming along bro?

I heard this exact same story, except it was a pig. Just an analogy to explain progressive overload.

TB - not sure about that one bro, it's very ambitious! Are you willing to potentially give up nearly a year of 'normal' progress to put your theory to the test?

[First6]

I think you could come up with something fun for the next two or three weeks.





Okay, how insane does this sound???

I've been thinking about doing this over the course of an entire year:

8 wks 5x5's (example - 315lb squats, 275lb bench presses, 315 deadlifts - this is about where I am right now) followed by
8 wks 6x6's (my theory is you should be able to handle the same weights you did for the 5x5's) take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 7x7's (same weight) take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 8x8's take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 9x9's take one week off from the gym followed by
8 wks 10x10's

If my theory of progressive strength training was correct you would be doing 10x10's with the weight you can currently only do 5x5's with, then drop back to the 5x5's for the next year and you should be 50 - 100lbs heavier on every lift? Problems with my hypothesis, yes, but doable to a degree??? Absolutely, you should also be able to constantly shock the muscles into growth, especially if you are only doing it for the core lifts and keep the supporting or secondary bodypart lifts to a mix of exercises that are changing with each eight week routine.

I dont think this will work T. The problem is that there is no pregressive progress. Make sense. You are asking your body to do the same thing (and get used to it) for 8 weeks and then suddenly do more. and repeat. You need more consistant building. If your first 8 weeks are maxed out. why do you think you would magically (for lack of better term) be able to do more on the 9th week? You didn't progress up to doing any more.

I heard this exact same story, except it was a pig. Just an analogy to explain progressive overload.

TB - not sure about that one bro, it's very ambitious! Are you willing to potentially give up nearly a year of 'normal' progress to put your theory to the test?

I think he would see on the 9th week that this is going to be a problem. He might Man his way through the second 8 weeks but by then no way will the 3rd set of 8 weeks work out.

T - I like the way you think. On paper this sounds awesome. I just dont know that your body could keep up with your head on it.

Wow just realized how negative I am being. Sorry for that. Not intentional. On a positive note. In my opinion, You look like you have made some crazy progress! Looking great bro!

[gbrice75]

I dont think this will work T. The problem is that there is no pregressive progress. Make sense. You are asking your body to do the same thing (and get used to it) for 8 weeks and then suddenly do more. and repeat. You need more consistant building. If your first 8 weeks are maxed out. why do you think you would magically (for lack of better term) be able to do more on the 9th week? You didn't progress up to doing any more.

I think he would see on the 9th week that this is going to be a problem. He might Man his way through the second 8 weeks but by then no way will the 3rd set of 8 weeks work out.

T - I like the way you think. On paper this sounds awesome. I just dont know that your body could keep up with your head on it.

Wow just realized how negative I am being. Sorry for that. Not intentional. On a positive note. In my opinion, You look like you have made some crazy progress! Looking great bro!

You're not being negative, you're giving your honest opinion. If it were me, i'd appreciate the honesty - nothing I hate more then people telling me 'yea, go for it' or something to that effect when they don't really believe it. I'm pretty sure TB will feel the same way.

[tbody66]

It's all good, my brothers. I love you and appreciate each of you. I'll post more later.

[tbody66]

Originally posted by FireGuy on another thread, just copied and pasted here to respond in a more appropriate venue.
I have been racking my brain trying to figure out a way to respectively respond to your posts and I am failing miserably cause the best I can come up with is, I think you are completely full of shit TBody. So you believe you gained over 3lbs of muscle (naturally) each week for 8 weeks straight? If this were even remotely close to being true I have a few questions.
Why in the hell dont you have an IFBB Pro Card by now because you obviously have the best genetics on the face of this earth. Again, I dont know how to say this without it sounding offensive but if you can do in 8 weeks what it took me over a decade to do (naturally) how come I look like I do and you look like you do? That's not a redundant question, I really want to know. By your own admission you probably are carrying around 160lbs of lean mass and are around mid teens in bodyfat yet you are capable of adding 30lbs of muscle in 60 days? Is it safe to assume had you been running AAS and a bit of HGH you would have gained 45lbs of muscle in 8 weeks?

How many competitions have you entered and how many clients have you trained for NPC shows and how did you and you and your clients place? Dont you dare tell me, zero and zero either cause if could get clients to acheive half of what you say you did they should all be cleaning up every show in country. You should also not be promoting the Remote ChallEnge, you should be training top level IFBB bodybuilders and making close to 7 figures a year in income.

I know this response is not the most pleasant one but I firmly believe you are completely out of touch with reality.

To the original poster, I apologize for derailing your thread. My advice, do some of your own research and decide who's advice to follow and who's to avoid.

TBody, I am not going to turn this into a war of words or egos between you and I. If I disagree with your advice in another thread I will simply offer my own and not refute yours. I will say again, I appreciate the time you put in here and the Remote Trainer Challenge is obviously drawing quite a bit of interest. Best of luck to you going forward.

This is what I know.

I went to Academy in March of 1988, you show up on Sunday the night pefore classes start and have to be weighed, bodyfat measured and perform bench press for 1rm. I weighed 135lbs with a bodyfat of 11%. At the end of the eight weeks of Academy you do the same thing, I weighed 168lbs with a bodyfat of 14%. I had read a book entitled "High Intensity", a workout/training manual, and I did the exact same exercises as listed sun/tue/thur evenings every week for the eight weeks. The meals provided at academy were cooked by Mennonite/Amish women who from the area and so I had homemade food for each meal and drank whole milk after the kitchen closed. I had no idea about that being an unusual amount of weight/muscle to gain during that period because I was not knowledgable on the subject to much of a degree. I had been lifting since I was 15. I have always been a small guy but quite strong for my size. I had won three gold medals at my first powerlifting meet. I had to have new uniforms sent to me twice during academy due to the weight gain.

I am certain that I do have good genetics. I did not even have to start shaving every day until I was in my thirties. I have no idea how much water retention there could have been during the final measuring or what affect it had on the totality of my results. If you just take it at face value I gained 20.77lbs of lbm over the 8 weeks or 2.59625 lbs per week. Honestly I am quite "hurt" by your response, I absolutely am open to the fact that I am ignorant of many things about diet and exercise, and I have never tried to come off as saying my way is the only way or the best way, nor have I recommended the exact same approach to everyone I've provided advice to. I absolutely know that I gained the weight that I say I gained and have no reason to lie about what I was eating and taking or how I was lifting. The results were measured by staff at Academy who do this for hundreds of people every few months for years and years. There certainly may have been other factors involved and the results could have a plus or minus of some percentage, but I think that doesn't justify you saying that I'm out of touch with reality. Unless I am just a bold faced liar, then your comments are right on and I should not be providing any information to anyone.

You have a much better consistent work ethic than I ever had over the course of my life. I don't think that my results are commonly achieveable, but I know that hitting the same muscles more than one time a week can produce positive results without over-training. I was 21 years old with two small children and a wife and went back to working rotating shifts every week, midnights/evenings/days five days on two days off for the next two years. I never worked on my diet and rarely trained consistently and had no idea what I could have accomplished had I done so. I have always lived in small towns in mid-rural america and almost everything I learned about weight lifting I had to go out of my way to do so. I have never had the pleasure of working with anyone who wanted to become a pro bodybuilder and almost all of my clients have had far different goals than bodybuilding. The other thing about those people is that most of them certainly think they know plenty and don't need some small town/part-time trainer's two cents.

I really have to head to work now, please point out what I didn't cover for you and I will respond in detail to that when I can. I will also offer this to you, if you believe that I am lying about what happened to me just say so, if you think my advice is harmful or mis-leading to a not safe degree, I'll stop providing it here. I train about four people at any given time and I offer advice and write programs for several others throughout the course of a year and have seen good and noticable results from everyone of them, not to the degree that I experienced, but I haven't trained someone under the same circumstances. I thought this was simply a "Arnold" vs "Mike Mentzer" training philosophy issue, but I understand now that you feel there is something wrong with my advice at the core, to an un-safe/harmful level. I would never want to propose or support something that would cause someone years of un-recoverable damage or hinder their growth to the degree that you seem to believe my advice does.

I know you are a very busy person, this is important to me so I do hope you take the time to let me know how I have erred, and how (if at all), I could go about correcting it. Thank you in advance for your time.

[Twist]

Although I would definitely be tempted to call bullshit like the others, I do know how newb gains can be. For example, last week I trained a client for the first time. He is 20 years old and phillipino. He is overweight but not obese. We worked the big 4 and he threw up in my office. He cancelled next workout and rescheduled for a week after the first workout. He came in excited and when I asked him why he told me he lost 8pounds. The only thing I did to his diet was change white rice to brown and that workout was the only one he had. Some things although highly unlikely, are possible. But it's when people think these are the norms is when a problem arises. Fireguy is justified in his response and the split doesn't really make sense. But some might benefit from that workout. I would just say it is better to recommend something that is more likely to work before jumping to the extreme programs that will only work for a small few.

Stick around tbody nobody is suggesting you go anywhere

[gbrice75]

I don't know why, but throughout my sleep last night (or lack thereof), this was all on my mind.

TB, I can tell you're feeling down about this bro. You shouldn't. Fireguy's priority is going to be to protect the boards members, I certainly don't think he meant to hurt you. If you look at it objectively, I think you'll see why alot of people would question the numbers - i.e. X amount of muscle gained in X amount of time (very short). Definitely not saying this didn't happen for you, obviously only you would know that. But they are not typical and would cause alot of people to raise an eyebrow.

Not really sure what i'm trying to say other then you're a well liked and respected member, and I feel like you're going to fade away now because you feel hurt - don't want that to happen.

[tbody66]

Fair enough, I was waiting on FG to respond to the above out of respect for him. I did post that I understood him looking out for the board with his response on the other thread. I have two things to say.

#1 - I don't lie.

#2 - I have never told anyone that they can expect the same, but I don't think that I am so genetically gifted that it is impossible to expect similar results for another individual. Obviously Twist is genetically messed up in the negative way, and possibly so is FG, but it isn't fair to say that just because you put on 3lbs of muscle a year anyone that produces more in a shorter period of time has to be a Genetic god or a liar. My point has always been that there are respected trainers and authorities that support and encourage training a muscle group multiple times in a single week. If I have to divide my actual, tested and recorded, results in order to not be accused of lying I find that wrong on several levels. How was I, a 21 year old from Kansas, supposed to know that those were incredible results, there could have been several other factors, and I'm not discounting any of them, but it actually happened. It seems like I need to buy into the "only way to train" cookie cutter workout program mentality. I have never said it is the "only" way to train, or the "best" way to train for everyone, but it certainly works, and may very well be the absolute best way for certain people. Again, I have not given the same workout to everyone who has requested advice, I just have never understood the "one bodypart per week" approach. I know that different muscle groups take different amounts of time to recuperate, depending on the amount of stress put on them during the exercise period, I feel that if your muscles are recovered and you don't train them again, then you are under-training. There are people on here every week that say "I'm thinking about doing X program, and X program is the same workout m-w-f, hitting all bodyparts" I didn't provide them with this information, it is out there. I didn't invent it, I used it and it produced results. I trained a naturally gifted, well built young man last year who had been training hard for two years with the "one bodypart per week" approach, we switched it to a push pull and he put on 7 pounds of muscle in three months. This is a kid who had great form and was going to failure and had no flaws in his routine. It seems as if FG and I disagree on training Philosophy, which I have no issue with. The rest certainly seemed to be him saying that I was not honest, let me assure you that I am a substantially flawed individual, however lying is not anywhere on that list.

[FireGuy]

First of all I would like to reiterate what Twist stated, dont go anywhere and dont stop giving advice you believe to be true. Your opinion is always given in a respective manner and we need more members like that. Also, if we all agreed on everything it would get very boring around here. My post may have seemed like a personal attack on you and I can assure you that was not my motive. The ONLY reason I made mention of your/my current condition was because I felt it was very relevent to my statement. Bottom line being if you were capable of such gains I would expect you to be well over 200lbs and sporting single digit bodyfat. Let me also clarify, I did not and am not accusing you of lying. When I am getting close to a show I may wake up around 202 and go to bed around 209(then wake up at 202 again). I am not putting on any bodyfat during the day so I guess I could state I gained 7lbs of muscle in one day. My point being gains in LBM, and BF percentages are often not an accurate reflection of what is really happening. I believe that you believe you gained 30lbs of muscle in 8 weeks. I also believe that it wasnt true. I have been around a great deal of very good bodybuilders in my time and have never witnessed gains even close to the ones you state you have achieved. When I start to take issue with your statements is when you tell other members on here they can gain 15lbs of muscle in 8 weeks..naturally. Unless its an advanced bodybuilder coming off of a month long hunger strike it's just not gonna happen IMHO. I also believe as a certified trainer (no, I dont do it as a living and never will) it is my job to set realistic goals for the people I choose to work with.

I dont want to name drop or get into whom I have trained with and/or under. I will say my circle of bodybuilding friends ranges from local competitors, national ones as well as two IFBB pros. I dont know a single on of them who trains in the manner you suggest. Does that mean it's wrong...nope...it just means it's abstract. I competed naturally in NPC shows for over 15 years. I got to know a ton of very gifted natural bodybuilders. During that time you know how many moved up a weight class? Zero, 22lbs is what separates NPC weight classes and these guys are busting their asses for years upon years, taking every product on GNC's shelves and not a single one moves up a weight class. Cause once you get the water and fat off the TRUE muscle gains are never what we think they are.

This brings me to what you stated above, "training philosophies". Yes, ours are not only different, they are polar opposites. My philosophies are pretty basic and there are a hundred different workout routines that can fit into them. Suggesting somebody train Back on Wednesday then come back and hit it again on Friday along with Chest and Shoulders has no place in my training philosophy so am going to 100% diagree with it everytime regardless who is advising it. These same philosophies apply to my beliefs on diet and pretty much everything else in life. Doesnt mean I am right, just means it's my opinion.

I hope this clears up a few things and I honestly appreciate you responding in an articulate and mature manner.

Thanks,
~FG

[Twist]

Back is the most commonly injured muscle due to training injuries and it is a fact that it takes over 3 days to heal (usually 4-5). It is definitely possible to train 2 bodyparts per week, and I do it sometimes. I just think that it is very hard to train all body parts 2x per week and eat enough food and rest enough to repair it. If all you were to do were eat and rest then it could work, especially with aas. But most can't and won't do that. It also depends on the workouts and on the exercises. Every time you do cardio you are working legs and that can be 7x per week.

[tbody66]

Thank you FG for responding and shedding additional light on everything. I am certainly willing to, and will do so, take a hard look at why I believe the way I believe and am not beyond changing my approach if and when it is not in the best interest of the individual being trained.

Thank you Twist, also, for always providing your views, and logic behind them, in a very respectful and insightful manner. I have several thoughts on all of this and would love to just kind of "share" them in an "open my mouth and think out loud" sort of way, which I will do here when I have the time and hopefully can get some more insight from both of you and others.

Thank's again, I'm much more right with the world now.

[First6]

Keep moving forward T. Pics this sat!
In fact if there was ever a time to turn it up let's do it now!
Let's start posting pics every sat. I know the every 2 week thing is good for seeing bigger/better results but I usually slack a little after pic saturday and and allow myself to not work as hard for 2-3 days. If I had to post pics every sat I wouldnt do that. The end result would be bigger/better results.
What do ya say? You down for every sat pics with me?

[gbrice75]

I'm glad this was made right. Now that that's out of the way, let's all get to our respective gyms, follow our respective routines, and RIP IT UP! =)

[First6]

I'm glad this was made right. Now that that's out of the way, let's all get to our respective gyms, follow our respective routines, and RIP IT UP! =)

Amen

[tbody66]

I'm down with pics whenever and wherever wearing whatever, you dig?

Rock-n-roll times kids, rock-n-roll!

[First6]

I'm down with pics whenever and wherever wearing whatever, you dig?

Rock-n-roll times kids, rock-n-roll!

Nice!
That' makes it You, Me, Big, and prob gb for every week then! We are def gonna tear it up!

[gbrice75]

Sucks that this weeks pics fall on Xmas day. Xmas eve is huge for my wife's family (Pollaks from the motherland lol) so... i'll probably be getting mine taken Fri. morning.

[First6]

Sucks that this weeks pics fall on Xmas day. Xmas eve is huge for my wife's family (Pollaks from the motherland lol) so... i'll probably be getting mine taken Fri. morning.

That'll work!

[tbody66]

I can't wait to show you what two weeks of not being fatithful to your diet in the least and only lifting 3 days out of 8 scheduled workouts looks like, then heading into Jesus' birthday party feeding frenzy.

[First6]

HaHa I dont need YOUR pics to show me what that looks like. I own a mirror.

[tbody66]

HaHa I dont need YOUR pics to show me what that looks like. I own a mirror.

Then I will post my pics on your site and you post your pics on mine and we will see how many people say "Wow" Amazing Improvement, to me and, "Oh My" you fat over-eating, under-training, POS, to you.

[gbrice75]

LoL you are both insane and probably hardly look different, if at all!

Hey, I haven't had the best 2 weeks either - don't expect any miracles here either.

[First6]

Then I will post my pics on your site and you post your pics on mine and we will see how many people say "Wow" Amazing Improvement, to me and, "Oh My" you fat over-eating, under-training, POS, to you.

HaHa yeah and they will all tell you how much muscle you lost to!

[First6]

LoL you are both insane and probably hardly look different, if at all!

Hey, I haven't had the best 2 weeks either - don't expect any miracles here either.

Yeah but you say that every week. I only say it when it's true!!
LOL

[gbrice75]

Yeah but you say that every week. I only say it when it's true!!
LOL

LoL maybe so, but trust me when I say it, I believe it and MEAN it, I never just say it as in fishing for compliments or something along those lines!

[tbody66]

You are both crazy and in for an amazing surprise.

[tbody66]

I didn't, nor am I planning on, post pictures.

[gbrice75]

I didn't, nor am I planning on, post pictures.

^^^ x2. I am disgusted beyond belief right now. I want a crane to stick hooks through my fat torso, hoist me up over a canyon, and drop me right in so I plummet to my death and get what I deserve.

Ok, sorry for the dramatic daydream! =)

[bass]

tBody66, you've done an amazing job bro, congratulations!

[tbody66]

Thanks, bass.

Welcome back "old GB"

[gbrice75]

Welcome back "old GB"

Lmao, he's only here for this week. Next week, i'll pi$$ all over that guy. =)