How do you know?

[gbrice75]

Yes, i'm posting another thread which has nothing to do with diet in my beloved diet section! Why? Because most of the people I deal with all the time are here and I trust their opinions. Please move it if it's not wanted here, and my apologies in advance.

Pretty simple question, but I doubt the answer is as simple. Since symptoms of both undertraining AND overtraining are no growth (among other things of course), how can one tell what the problem is?

I am seroiusly lagging on 2 major groups - back and shoulders. Yep, basically the 2 groups that make the obvious difference in distinguishing somebody who works out from somebody who doesn't.

I've worked both groups out 2x a week. 1x a week. Many sets, high reps. Many sets, low reps. A mixture of both. I believe my form is good, and my exercise choices are usually good compound movements. I of course throw in some smaller iso movements sometimes, but don't rely on them for growth.

Fvckers won't budge! I have NO width whatsoever; it's embarrasing. Lifting consistently for 2 years and have zero V-taper. As for shoulders, i'm talking about all 3 delt heads, not just 1 lagging muscle in the group.

So what do you think? I could see if I packed on some good size and then couldn't grow more - i'd chalk it up to reaching my genetic potential. I WILL NOT accept that i've already reached it; I swear to you that while i've made obvious improvements in other areas, I see almost no difference in those 2 groups from 2 years ago to today.

The only factor (and granted it's not a minor one) is that my diet has never been geared towards gains/growth as i've always had the bodyfat issue to deal with. Save my 3 month test e cycle which I admittedly should have waited to run. But even then, I honestly didn't notice much if any changes in those groups.

So, what gives?

[scotty51312]

I've found that changing the order of what excersises i do has made a diffference in growth. For example for chest i started doing my inclines first and moved flat barbell bench to the last thing i do and noticed quite a bit of change. Delts I've been starting with arnold presses to pre exhaust all 3 delts before isolating them. Do you work out with a partner? Doing any static excersises? Negatives? Forced Reps?

[gbrice75]

I've found that changing the order of what excersises i do has made a diffference in growth. For example for chest i started doing my inclines first and moved flat barbell bench to the last thing i do and noticed quite a bit of change. Delts I've been starting with arnold presses to pre exhaust all 3 delts before isolating them. Do you work out with a partner? Doing any static excersises? Negatives? Forced Reps?

I have changed up order with other muscle groups, not so much with these 2 though. Funny, today I DID happen to change up my back routine - did rack pulls first, then all my row movements, then my pulldowns, etc.

I work on and off with a partner, but more often alone. I haven't really implemented any advanced techniques yet because my feelings are with not even having built a base yet, basic movements should be plenty. Maybe my logic is off here... but honestly... I have SOMEWHAT of an overall build, but the shoulders of a 13 year old boy. Makes me wanna smash the mirror!

[scotty51312]

I'm pretty sure you've got a solid base, U look like it anyway. Increasing the size of my lats has put a couple inches on my chest measurement in the past couple years. (makes me mad cause i had to buy two new suits lol) I'd say you're more than ready for something more advanced. Maybe the next time you go with a partner try weighted pull ups only do sets 3 sets of negatives to start. Have your partner give you a boost each time to get to the top of the bar and try to come down slowly and controled. I did this last week 5X5 with 2 plates hanging from my waste my back was sore for days. I'm a firm believer in the principle of muscle confusion, Static, Supersets, Drop sets, Negatives, Pyramid sets, Reverse Pyramid sets, plyometrics, compound movements, isolation movements, all part of a toolbox. Sometimes you gotta pull out every wrench and every socket before you find the one that works. I'm sure when you get done cutting and get ready to bulk you'll grow some massive delts

[gbrice75]

Scotty, thanks bro - this is good advice and I will definitely implement some of it. You're right, I need to find what works, I certainly can't claim to have tried it all...

[MR-FQ320]

GB can I ask you a question ? A bit off topic but iv been meaning to ask for a while. have you or will you ever do a cycle ? or are you just so determined to get the body you want au natural ?

[tbody66]

Yes, i'm posting another thread which has nothing to do with diet in my beloved diet section! Why? Because most of the people I deal with all the time are here and I trust their opinions. Please move it if it's not wanted here, and my apologies in advance.

Pretty simple question, but I doubt the answer is as simple. Since symptoms of both undertraining AND overtraining are no growth (among other things of course), how can one tell what the problem is?

I am seroiusly lagging on 2 major groups - back and shoulders. Yep, basically the 2 groups that make the obvious difference in distinguishing somebody who works out from somebody who doesn't.

I've worked both groups out 2x a week. 1x a week. Many sets, high reps. Many sets, low reps. A mixture of both. I believe my form is good, and my exercise choices are usually good compound movements. I of course throw in some smaller iso movements sometimes, but don't rely on them for growth.

Fvckers won't budge! I have NO width whatsoever; it's embarrasing. Lifting consistently for 2 years and have zero V-taper. As for shoulders, i'm talking about all 3 delt heads, not just 1 lagging muscle in the group.

So what do you think? I could see if I packed on some good size and then couldn't grow more - i'd chalk it up to reaching my genetic potential. I WILL NOT accept that i've already reached it; I swear to you that while i've made obvious improvements in other areas, I see almost no difference in those 2 groups from 2 years ago to today.

The only factor (and granted it's not a minor one) is that my diet has never been geared towards gains/growth as i've always had the bodyfat issue to deal with. Save my 3 month test e cycle which I admittedly should have waited to run. But even then, I honestly didn't notice much if any changes in those groups.

So, what gives?

All answers are simple, finding them is sometimes hard. It's easier for me to focus on the shoulders at this point with you, back is a very difficult thing for almost anyone not genetically gifted, it is almost impossible, IMO, to "feel" a back "pump". I don't know so much about the order of exercises making a big difference, but grip width and rep tempo can for sure. The way to tell if you are over or under training is pretty simple, tell me how much you train them, sets/reps/frequency. My simple solution is this, lift heavy, perform mass building shoulder exercises followed by shaping/stretching exercises, put shoulders on chest day, hit three chest exercises, including heavy bench, for your three workout sets of bench weight I want you to come in one finger width closer each set, beginning wide and moving in, and you will have performed the mass building for the fronts, perform heavy military presses, including negatives and you'll have hit the tops with a mass builder, the problem with the rears is that you are trying to build a muscle about the size of a piece of scotch tape, my mass builder here would be lying barbell raises (this would be lying face down, with your forehead on the floor, holding a barbell north of your head with your arms shoulder width apart and raising the weight off the ground and holding it for as long as you can, then starting all over. I would end the shoulder workout here with a triple super-set of front raises/lateral raises/rear raises with decreasing dumbbell amounts for each exercise, on your second set perform the exercises starting from shoulder height and going up, then returning to shoulder height for each rep, on the third set perform holds, where you begin with the weight and the bottom/relaxed point, bring the weight up to shoulder height and then hold it there til failure, perform multiple reps. If any of this hurts/burns, then you have not over-trained your shoulders to this point. If this doesn't wake you up or you are like Jan-Michael Vincent in the movie "Tribes" holding the water pails all day, then you are definitely in serious over-trained mode and need to not train shoulders for two or more years.

[cue_artist]

GB IMO the only reason why you are not seeing some improvments in your lagging body parts is that you are always dieting. Bro you really need to give yourself a break and gear towards adding some muscle. I have always bulked with bodyfat of greater than 15 % and I seem to add a great amount of muscle with small amounts of fat. Bro there is no need for me to tell you that the amount of fat that you gain during your bulking phase is all dependant on your diet. I always incorporate at least 1 hour of cardio even when bulking. I usually do 30 mins in the morning and 30 mins after training. Trust me bro on this. You can never find gentics that are as bad as mines. When I was in high school I used to weigh 167 kgs. Its just a matter of monitoring your progress and go by the way you look.

~ Cue ~

[gbrice75]

GB can I ask you a question ? A bit off topic but iv been meaning to ask for a while. have you or will you ever do a cycle ? or are you just so determined to get the body you want au natural ?

I actually ran a cycle this past summer - 12 week test e 500mg/week with 40mg dbol weeks 1-4. Pretty sure the dbol was bunk, but the test was definitely real. I will most definitely consider another cycle in the future, however right now my primary focus is to start a family, and staying clean is probably a wise choice.

All answers are simple, finding them is sometimes hard. It's easier for me to focus on the shoulders at this point with you, back is a very difficult thing for almost anyone not genetically gifted, it is almost impossible, IMO, to "feel" a back "pump". I don't know so much about the order of exercises making a big difference, but grip width and rep tempo can for sure. The way to tell if you are over or under training is pretty simple, tell me how much you train them, sets/reps/frequency. My simple solution is this, lift heavy, perform mass building shoulder exercises followed by shaping/stretching exercises, put shoulders on chest day, hit three chest exercises, including heavy bench, for your three workout sets of bench weight I want you to come in one finger width closer each set, beginning wide and moving in, and you will have performed the mass building for the fronts, perform heavy military presses, including negatives and you'll have hit the tops with a mass builder, the problem with the rears is that you are trying to build a muscle about the size of a piece of scotch tape, my mass builder here would be lying barbell raises (this would be lying face down, with your forehead on the floor, holding a barbell north of your head with your arms shoulder width apart and raising the weight off the ground and holding it for as long as you can, then starting all over. I would end the shoulder workout here with a triple super-set of front raises/lateral raises/rear raises with decreasing dumbbell amounts for each exercise, on your second set perform the exercises starting from shoulder height and going up, then returning to shoulder height for each rep, on the third set perform holds, where you begin with the weight and the bottom/relaxed point, bring the weight up to shoulder height and then hold it there til failure, perform multiple reps. If any of this hurts/burns, then you have not over-trained your shoulders to this point. If this doesn't wake you up or you are like Jan-Michael Vincent in the movie "Tribes" holding the water pails all day, then you are definitely in serious over-trained mode and need to not train shoulders for two or more years.

Thanks for this info Tbody, I like your rear delt exercise. They are hard to work like you said. Shoulders have their own day in my routine, but are definitely getting hit on chest day particularly with incline bench. I just posted up my proposed routine and may modify it to include some of this

GB IMO the only reason why you are not seeing some improvments in your lagging body parts is that you are always dieting. Bro you really need to give yourself a break and gear towards adding some muscle. I have always bulked with bodyfat of greater than 15 % and I seem to add a great amount of muscle with small amounts of fat. Bro there is no need for me to tell you that the amount of fat that you gain during your bulking phase is all dependant on your diet. I always incorporate at least 1 hour of cardio even when bulking. I usually do 30 mins in the morning and 30 mins after training. Trust me bro on this. You can never find gentics that are as bad as mines. When I was in high school I used to weigh 167 kgs. Its just a matter of monitoring your progress and go by the way you look.

~ Cue ~

Cue - like I said above, I know that's no small factor, and actually could be all the difference. The problem with me bulking at 15% + bodyfat is that I store bodyfat VERY easily, you probably don't. Also, it's probably much easier for you to shed it, for me it's a bitch. So I kind of have no choice but to get down to the 10% range to bulk, because the bodyfat I put on won't bring me back up to a disgusting level, it'll still be managable.

My biggest mistake over the past year was not really committing to one or the other; Every month I was either cutting or bulking... and in the end I broke even and got nowhere. Biggest regrest so far in my young career. I'm sure I will make many more mistakes, but they do make us wiser, and I love to learn and have a passion for this game.

SO - with alot of hard work, dedication, and a bit of luck - I can possibly reach 10% by March, and can then focus 100% on adding mass (right before summer lol). Looking foward to this day!

[tbody66]

Can't wait to see that program.

[gbrice75]

It's up now

[tbody66]

I'll check it out