Cardio?

**bufftiger** · 04-04-2011, 02:27 PM

Okay so will running after your workout on the treadmill for 5-10 minutes burn any muscle? Also will it burn any fat?

Whats the best way to benefit from the treadmill?

**Damienm05** · 04-04-2011, 02:42 PM

It will burn fat but it won't burn muscle provided your nutrition is in check. I can't answer more specifically without your stats and goals. That includes the best way to use the treadmill - it's dependent on the energy you're getting from your diet and what you want to achieve/where you are now.

**bufftiger** · 04-04-2011, 02:58 PM

Hey bro you helped me out in my other thread where i wanted to diet down and I was taking around 4100 calories. Right now i just wanted to adjust a few things so I can lower my bf%. I decided to get under 10% body fat and stay bulking for another year before I do my first show. So what what do you think?

**Damienm05** · 04-04-2011, 06:19 PM

Well, provided you have a good portion of complex carbs in your pre-workout meal, I'd do very intense interval sprints on the treadmill for 15-20 minutes PWO before your shake. Good way to stay lean and keep the water off when gaining.

**gbrice75** · 04-04-2011, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Damienm05

It will burn fat but it won't burn muscle provided your nutrition is in check. I can't answer more specifically without your stats and goals. That includes the best way to use the treadmill - it's dependent on the energy you're getting from your diet and what you want to achieve/where you are now.

Love ya Damien but going against ya here... maybe you didn't notice the amount of time the OP asked about being on the treadmill? 5-10 mins won't burn sh!t... it's not even worth doing. 5-10 mins will probably burn straight glucose - it's a warm up.

Like Damien said, if you need to do a short session, stick with intervals but try to get at least 20 mins in IMO.

**Damienm05** · 04-04-2011, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Love ya Damien but going against ya here... maybe you didn't notice the amount of time the OP asked about being on the treadmill? 5-10 mins won't burn sh!t... it's not even worth doing. 5-10 mins will probably burn straight glucose - it's a warm up.

Like Damien said, if you need to do a short session, stick with intervals but try to get at least 20 mins in IMO.

I wasn't referring to the duration - merely that running on the treadmill PWO will burn fat. I agree that it won't do shit compared to a proper session but I couldn't advise a course of action without knowing where he's at (i.e. maybe running keto).

**gbrice75** · 04-04-2011, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Damienm05

I wasn't referring to the duration - merely that running on the treadmill PWO will burn fat. I agree that it won't do shit compared to a proper session but I couldn't advise a course of action without knowing where he's at (i.e. maybe running keto).

Gotcha bro, thx for the clarification. =)

**Damienm05** · 04-04-2011, 07:18 PM

My pleasure, haha.

**bufftiger** · 04-05-2011, 09:17 AM

So running for 5-10 minutes after an 60-90 minute intense workout wouldnt do zip? Also wouldnt running for like 20 or more minutes hack in to your muscles whether your legs or chest?

**bufftiger** · 04-05-2011, 09:18 AM

So running for 5-10 minutes after an 60-90 minute intense workout wouldnt do zip? Also wouldnt running for like 20 or more minutes hack in to your muscles whether your legs or chest?

**Damienm05** · 04-05-2011, 09:34 AM

Like I said, it will not hack into your muscle if you are fueling your workouts with complex carbs and keeping glycogen stores up. I've seen your diet and it's fine. Especially since you should be having at least 40g pro/carbs as soon as you get off the treadmill.

5-10 minutes is better than 0 minutes but yeah, in the grand scheme it's just not gonna yield noticeable results. I find the 10 minute mark is when the sweat really starts pouring.

**tbody66** · 04-05-2011, 09:45 AM

Aerobic activity by nature must be counter productive to anaerobic activitiy. It's like asking if taking a sleeping pill after taking two caffein pills would make it harder to stay awake, duh!!! For muscle building you would be better served stretching/flexing/massaging the bodyparts worked during the lifting session. IMO. Again, as mentioned, lots of this depends on your personal stats and specific goals.

**bufftiger** · 04-05-2011, 01:25 PM

Damien what do you think the best amount of time is in order to burn a good amount of calories?

tbody so your saying if your looking to build muscle then it would be better to do cardio and lifting apart and not after each other correct?

**tbody66** · 04-05-2011, 01:57 PM

I'm saying that I do not agree with the exaggerated benefits of cardio at all. I say add muscle and it will burn fat, eat properly and drink enough water. If you are dead set on cardio then perform it on your non-lifting days, if you have totally bought into it being necessary more frequently than that then perform it on empty stomach in the am and lift in the pm on lifting days. What are your stats and your specific goals?

**Damienm05** · 04-05-2011, 02:03 PM

This guy is planning on being a competitive bodybuilder and initially came here for contest prep protocol; he needs to live and die by the benefits of cardio, exaggerated or otherwise. Not gaining too much fat when building mass and keeping water weight off as to not distort gains/required adjustments is key and this largely comes down to frequent cardio.

I'd say 20 minutes of interval sprints on the treadmill is a good happy-medium. 2 minutes walking pace, 1 minute heavy sprint. 6-8 intervals is 18-25 minutes. Never do this type of cardio on an empty stomach as it will burn muscle. However, with nutrition in-check, you'll burn exponentially more calories doing this type of cardio training and it will allow you to eat more food throughout the day.

**bufftiger** · 04-05-2011, 03:14 PM

Damien would you recommend some kind of incline?

Damien I never introduced myself properly so I'd like to let you know a few things abt me. Its not like I never dieted down before I actually did. I was around 170 clean bt the only problem is I spent my years savings on a nutritionist. He did bring me down from 14% to 4% but what bothered me is I really didn't learn much. I mean he was one of those high class nutritionist that had the timer on and was more like do this this and that and not really being too helpful. After I finished my diet let me just tell you it felt GREAT being cut. Lol wherever I went I wanted to take my shirt off haha. Anyways in time I realized that my years savings that I spent on this guy where a waste because I didn't know how to actually eat I mean it was like okay I need to bulk now but how do I do it? How do I cheat? How do i eat on non training days. But I guess it was a marketing strategy to keep customers coming back and I don't have that kinda money. So right now I'm here to learn everything I can and there is a lot of info to absorb.

**PK-V** · 04-05-2011, 03:52 PM

circuit > cardio

**Damienm05** · 04-05-2011, 03:56 PM

No incline unless you're looking to build explosive power/athletic endurance overall. Or you wanna do longer, slower sessions of walking on full-incline to target the fat-burning zone (60% of max hr).

Read, learn - I won't give you a fish like this nutritionist, I'll teach you how to catch your own. Don't cheat, don't eat differently on rest days.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ead&highlight=

**Narkissos** · 04-05-2011, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by bufftiger

So running for 5-10 minutes after an 60-90 minute intense workout wouldnt do zip? Also wouldnt running for like 20 or more minutes hack in to your muscles whether your legs or chest?

20 minutes of running won't 'hack in to muscles'.

Anabolism and Catabolism as processes are always ongoing... there is a constant interplay between the two, all day and all night - always a building of tissue and a breaking down of tissue.

Isn't limited to set windows.

What i'm trying to say, in a nutshell is, providing your nutrition is sufficient, 20 minutes of aerobic activity is minuscule.

You won't piss away muscle in 20 minutes.

People who worry about stuff like that are generally the ones who stay fat.

**gbrice75** · 04-05-2011, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by tbody66

I'm saying that I do not agree with the exaggerated benefits of cardio at all. I say add muscle and it will burn fat, eat properly and drink enough water. If you are dead set on cardio then perform it on your non-lifting days, if you have totally bought into it being necessary more frequently than that then perform it on empty stomach in the am and lift in the pm on lifting days. What are your stats and your specific goals?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single bodybuilder who doesn't do cardio, particularly during contest prep. If the above were true, that would mean there are alot of people essentially wasting their time. Why go through all of that painstaking cardio if building more muscle is all you need to burn fat?

You may be on to something for people who are ok with being 15% plus, but nobody is getting into single digit bodyfat by lifting and diet alone.

**tbody66** · 04-05-2011, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single bodybuilder who doesn't do cardio, particularly during contest prep. If the above were true, that would mean there are alot of people essentially wasting their time. Why go through all of that painstaking cardio if building more muscle is all you need to burn fat?

You may be on to something for people who are ok with being 15% plus, but nobody is getting into single digit bodyfat by lifting and diet alone.

How about this. I will say that most people on this board aren't competetive bodybuilders. I would say that almost every weight lifter I've ever known has done limited if any cardio and have seen several of them under 15 % bodyfat. I also believe that competetive bodybuilders for years have done much less cardio than you'd think. I'm not generally or generically refering to competetive bodybuilders with this advice, I'm talking to the 99.9% of people who want to look better, be healthier and keep fat off for life. I've personally been 11% at one point in time of my life and promise you I wasn't doing cardio! As for the "nobody" I'm going to just see how low I can go with no cardio.

Buff, take their advice and hit the cardio the way they say!

**Narkissos** · 04-06-2011, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single bodybuilder who doesn't do cardio, particularly during contest prep. If the above were true, that would mean there are alot of people essentially wasting their time. Why go through all of that painstaking cardio if building more muscle is all you need to burn fat?

You may be on to something for people who are ok with being 15% plus, but nobody is getting into single digit bodyfat by lifting and diet alone.

Can't say that i agree with that.

I only started doing cardio later in my competitive career. Since retiring, I haven't done any structured cardio in 5 years... but I still stay lean. (Sometimes as low as 7-8%... sometimes between 10-11. No higher than 12% tho)

People *can* get to single digit bodyfat without cardio... but it isn't easy in the least.

Anyway.. back on topic: Cardio won't magically eat into muscle.

**gbrice75** · 04-06-2011, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

I haven't done any structured cardio in 5 years... but I still stay lean.

I'm not doubting there are people who can maintain low/single digit bf without cardio, but to achieve that from a 'normal' level of bf, say 15%? I personally have never seen that happen. In my experience, the people who seem to 'get away' without doing cardio are usually the ones who are already lean and/or have really fast metabolisms. However, i'll concede that my experience doesn't account for the entire bb'ing population and doesn't make this impossible.

Nark at 12% bodyfat??!! All lies without pics!

OP - sorry if this is getting derailed, but questioning eachother and debating is how we all learn, so hopefully you can take more out of this than you even expected. =)

**LatissimusaurousRex** · 04-06-2011, 04:23 AM

When I'm at my leanest it's because I've been doing a lot of cardio. When I'm trying to put on weight I'll do LESS cardio, but won't stop. Cardio is good for you and you can get the health benefits from it by doing it every day. I bet people can come up with a bunch of reasons why they don't 'need' to do it and that's cause plain and simple cardio sucks. If it were easy everyone would be walking around ripped, but they're not. You should maybe be less concerned with how much muscle your losing (to an extent) and be more concerned with how much fat your losing (if that's your goal).

***t-gunz*** · 04-06-2011, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I'm not doubting there are people who can maintain low/single digit bf without cardio, but to achieve that from a 'normal' level of bf, say 15%? I personally have never seen that happen. In my experience, the people who seem to 'get away' without doing cardio are usually the ones who are already lean and/or have really fast metabolisms. However, i'll concede that my experience doesn't account for the entire bb'ing population and doesn't make this impossible.

Nark at 12% bodyfat??!! All lies without pics!

OP - sorry if this is getting derailed, but questioning eachother and debating is how we all learn, so hopefully you can take more out of this than you even expected. =)

he's leaner. recent pics of him on FB with how vascular he is. its insane. but he does practice what he preachers and it pays off.

plus hes a jerk :P

**Narkissos** · 04-06-2011, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I'm not doubting there are people who can maintain low/single digit bf without cardio, but to achieve that from a 'normal' level of bf, say 15%? I personally have never seen that happen. In my experience, the people who seem to 'get away' without doing cardio are usually the ones who are already lean and/or have really fast metabolisms. However, i'll concede that my experience doesn't account for the entire bb'ing population and doesn't make this impossible.

Nark at 12% bodyfat??!! All lies without pics!

lol...sometimes I get lazy. Or, rather, sometimes I have so many clients (both online, one-on-one, and in group sessions) that my training takes a back seat.

When that happens, I get in 1-2 workouts per week and I get soft (<>12%).

When time permits, I bump the volume and frequency of my workouts up and I'm lean again.

Diet doesn't change much... tho I do switch from high carb/kcal to alternating phases of keto w/ carb cycling. And, of late, I lean more heavily on intermittent fasting... micromanaging IF even further by having pro/fat only days alternated w/ pro/carb days.

Fun stuff.

**Narkissos** · 04-06-2011, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by t-gunz

he's leaner. recent pics of him on FB with how vascular he is. its insane. but he does practice what he preachers and it pays off.

:P Memo to self: stop posting regular FB updated pics. lol

Originally Posted by t-gunz

plus hes a jerk :P

#Truth

**Narkissos** · 04-06-2011, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by LatissimusaurousRex

When I'm at my leanest it's because I've been doing a lot of cardio. When I'm trying to put on weight I'll do LESS cardio, but won't stop. Cardio is good for you and you can get the health benefits from it by doing it every day. I bet people can come up with a bunch of reasons why they don't 'need' to do it and that's cause plain and simple cardio sucks. If it were easy everyone would be walking around ripped, but they're not. You should maybe be less concerned with how much muscle your losing (to an extent) and be more concerned with how much fat your losing (if that's your goal).

Agreed.

Great post brother.

**tbody66** · 04-06-2011, 06:08 AM

Great input from great sources. Plus Nark's never been a jerk to me. He does have an uncanny nack for presenting informatioin in such a way that makes him seem like his opinion is ordered by God and to question it or challange it one would have to be incredibly mentally challanged and un/mis-informed.

**Sgt. Hartman** · 04-06-2011, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by LatissimusaurousRex

When I'm at my leanest it's because I've been doing a lot of cardio. When I'm trying to put on weight I'll do LESS cardio, but won't stop. Cardio is good for you and you can get the health benefits from it by doing it every day. I bet people can come up with a bunch of reasons why they don't 'need' to do it and that's cause plain and simple cardio sucks. If it were easy everyone would be walking around ripped, but they're not. You should maybe be less concerned with how much muscle your losing (to an extent) and be more concerned with how much fat your losing (if that's your goal).

Good post, agree 100%.

**Damienm05** · 04-06-2011, 07:07 AM

Nice thread boys

**gbrice75** · 04-06-2011, 09:27 AM

^ ^ ^ all good stuff. Glad to have you back around here too Nark.

**Bigd89** · 04-06-2011, 12:46 PM

I just started cardio this week. Would 3 days a week for 15 minutes be ok? Just trying to burn off these little love handles..(sorry OP)

**bufftiger** · 04-06-2011, 05:43 PM

LOL first GB keep going I don't mind at all. This is actually helping me and getting more of my questions answered and Bigd don't worry about it bro. Ask away we are all here to learn. I actually have another question. How would you do those 20 minutes of running? 1 min running 3 walking or how exactly? Also I was thinking about carb cycling to lean down a bit before bulking again and I was wondering would you do these cardio sessions on high carb days or low carb days or it doesnt matter?

Buff

**gbrice75** · 04-06-2011, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bigd89

I just started cardio this week. Would 3 days a week for 15 minutes be ok? Just trying to burn off these little love handles..(sorry OP)

No offense, but did you read the whole thread? This is kind of the same question the OP asked. 15 mins of cardio isn't going to do much bro. If you can only do 15 mins for some reason, make it really intense or it's not going to count for much.

Originally Posted by bufftiger

LOL first GB keep going I don't mind at all. This is actually helping me and getting more of my questions answered and Bigd don't worry about it bro. Ask away we are all here to learn. I actually have another question. How would you do those 20 minutes of running? 1 min running 3 walking or how exactly? Also I was thinking about carb cycling to lean down a bit before bulking again and I was wondering would you do these cardio sessions on high carb days or low carb days or it doesnt matter?

Buff

I was doing it on the treadmill for a while - walking at 4.0 with a decent incline (maybe 8.0) for 2 minutes, then dropping the incline completely and sprinting at around 10.0 (but go with whatever is best for you) for 1 minute, repeat.

If you're going to be doing higher intensity interval type cardio, i'd do it on the higher carb days.

***FireGuy*** · 04-06-2011, 08:09 PM

Whether you are pro cardio or anti cardio one thing is for certain. If you are going to shed bodyfat and get leaner you must create a calorie deficit. My personal experience has been to get measurably leaner I need to do cardio. Once I acheive that level of conditioning I can maintain it with pretty much diet alone. I think its important to note the benefits of cardio go well beyond simply burning body fat. Staying cardiovascularly fit has many benefits including enabling you to train harder. I love working legs with guys who dont do cardio and watching suck wind and nearly collapse cause there lungs cant keep up with their muscles. Also, there is a lot of discussion about cardio and cutting into muscle. If you have a good diet you dont need to do a ton of cardio to hang out in the 10% bodyfat range. For guys that want to get below 6% and compete, guess what, losing muscle is a given. I dont care if you are Mr Olympia or Joe Local Competitor, you dont get into contest condition without losing a bit of lean mass along the way. Granted, we want to keep that to a minimum but every single person on here will look better on stage with 3lbs less muscle and 3lbs less fat than simply being 6lbs heavier all other factors being the same.

**tbody66** · 04-06-2011, 08:13 PM

Very insightful, thanks FG.

**LatissimusaurousRex** · 04-07-2011, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by bufftiger

LOL first GB keep going I don't mind at all. This is actually helping me and getting more of my questions answered and Bigd don't worry about it bro. Ask away we are all here to learn. I actually have another question. How would you do those 20 minutes of running? 1 min running 3 walking or how exactly? Also I was thinking about carb cycling to lean down a bit before bulking again and I was wondering would you do these cardio sessions on high carb days or low carb days or it doesnt matter?

Buff

You said you want to "lean down a bit before bulking again" what will help you is to come up with an exact goal. Try and make it a measurable goal, like you want to get down to X amount of body fat, or X amount of lbs. This way you can mark your progress and have a better idea of how to tweak your diet and/or training to reach that goal. This will also let you know if you have ACHIEVED your goal or if you have FAILED. Otherwise you will just be eyeing yourself up in the mirror everyday like "ehhhh yeah I think I look a bit leaner" and you could do this for weeks on end achieving nothing. Point being, if you set measurable goals you will have a better ability to reach those goals.

**bufftiger** · 04-07-2011, 05:16 AM

Thanks for all the insight guys. Fireguy what kind of cardio do you prefer?

Rex right now my goal is to get around 9-8% BF. Then bulk up while staying under 10% bodyfat.

**Narkissos** · 04-07-2011, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by FireGuy

Whether you are pro cardio or anti cardio one thing is for certain. If you are going to shed bodyfat and get leaner you must create a calorie deficit. My personal experience has been to get measurably leaner I need to do cardio. Once I acheive that level of conditioning I can maintain it with pretty much diet alone. I think its important to note the benefits of cardio go well beyond simply burning body fat. Staying cardiovascularly fit has many benefits including enabling you to train harder. I love working legs with guys who dont do cardio and watching suck wind and nearly collapse cause there lungs cant keep up with their muscles. Also, there is a lot of discussion about cardio and cutting into muscle. If you have a good diet you dont need to do a ton of cardio to hang out in the 10% bodyfat range. For guys that want to get below 6% and compete, guess what, losing muscle is a given. I dont care if you are Mr Olympia or Joe Local Competitor, you dont get into contest condition without losing a bit of lean mass along the way. Granted, we want to keep that to a minimum but every single person on here will look better on stage with 3lbs less muscle and 3lbs less fat than simply being 6lbs heavier all other factors being the same.

Agreed.