* * * IF (intermittent fasting) Diets - post your opinions and experience here * * *

I've seen a few scattered posts about this 'style' of dieting, but no threads dedicated to it. I'd like this thread to serve as just that.

Share your personal experience with implementing this type of diet, your opinions on it, whether positive or negative. Discuss the possible benefits and drawbacks. This is not a new style of dieting, but it is picking up notoriety more recently due to sites like leangains for instance. It is becoming a widely discussed and debated form of dieting, and I think the number 1 diet board on the net should have a dedicated thread.

Please stay on topic and keep disagreements/debates respectful, thanks!

I love this diet. I spent almost a year trying to break a fat loss plateau. I have been following a mix between "lean gains" and the "warrior diet" for the last few weeks. I have broken through my plateau and I am losing fat at a rapid pace. I have kept all my muscle and have even increased in strength.

The best part about it is the fact that you eat a large amount until you are full. So much better then small meals that leave you even hungrier than before you ate them.

To the people that think you will go into "starvation mode" or lose muscle because of the fast period, all those myths have been debunked. It is all "bro-science".
http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top...-debunked.html


Also, here is a thread dedicated to Intermittent fasting with thousands of users having seen huge success. You rarely come across someone who has tried the diet and hasn't loved it.

Most people are scared of change and will usually show huge ignorance to this way of dieting until they actually try it. That is life. This is also why i'm expecting huge initial negativity in these forums towards this way of dieting as it go's against all the "bro-science" that has been imprinted in your minds over the years. e.g "6 meals a day"
True studies have shown that meal timing is completely irrelevant, and that you can see as good results, if not better with one (warrior) or two (IF) meals a day. As long as you are getting in your correct macros in a 24 hour period.


IF -
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=131542323

Warrior diet -
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113316481
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=131535343

I don't see any issues with this. I mean, if you sleep in and then skip breakfast its the same thing. No news here. I don't think this will way of eating will have any backlash or much resistance. It's nothing radical from what I can tell. Keto is much more radical than this.

Not eating 6 meals a day has been discussed plenty of times on this forum. Idk about only one meal a day as that just seems unnecessary, but if you can get the calories in, why not. Not gonna drain your bodies energy stores before the next meal anyway. The problem with diets like this is not the meal timing, its that nobody sticks to it. Fat people eat too much, bottom line. Tell a fat guy not to eat for 18 hours and they snack all day, eat the 1 or 2 big meals, then lie about the snacking.

My main issue with this is one that Twist pointed out in another thread about 'IF'. Let's say you're using this style of dieting to break through a plateau, but afterwards, change back to a 'typical' way of eating, say 6-8 meals a day. I would like to know from the people who have implemented this dieting, whether or not they have put on any body fat due to this. I know a lot of people complain that this happens after discontinuing keto....

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Originally Posted by Twist

Tell a fat guy not to eat for 18 hours and they snack all day, eat the 1 or 2 big meals, then lie about the snacking.

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Not this fat guy. Now it took a lot of time to get there. When I weighed 256 I ate three big meals of garbage a day lot of fast food and lots of bad snacks. I have a strong back ground as far as knowing how to lose weight from years of wrestling and coaching wrestling. So I have never had a problem droping weight just keeping it off. When I dediced to really make a perminate change the first thing i went after was portion control. first I did a two day juice fast to shirnk my gut then I started with the subway diet very good for portion control
After I got two 240 and added workouts I tired to do the 6 meal a day thing. I found it very hard to lose weight I had the flue for a week and could not eat droped 10 pounds. after this I switch to two meals a day and a bed time snack. With a very clean diet. Typical day wake up at 4:am have couple cups of joe go work out. eat breakfast some times have salad for lunch at 10:30 eat big meal dinner at 3 pm 8 pm snack of sardines etc. Many days I skip the lunch. now the snack makes me not doing the fast but big meal to big meal is 13 hours. it works for me. droping just under 2 pounds a week and keeping or adding muscel. If I hit a platue I may fast for a day or even two.

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Originally Posted by musclestack

My main issue with this is one that Twist pointed out in another thread about 'IF'. Let's say you're using this style of dieting to break through a plateau, but afterwards, change back to a 'typical' way of eating, say 6-8 meals a day. I would like to know from the people who have implemented this dieting, whether or not they have put on any body fat due to this. I know a lot of people complain that this happens after discontinuing keto....

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People who start this diet usually find that they can easy maintain a low bodyfat all year round. They therefore make it a lifestyle instead of just a "diet"

It is extremely practical in that you get to eat lunch and supper and only miss breakfast. The point is to be strict during your fast period as to maximize the fat loss

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Tell a fat guy not to eat for 18 hours and they snack all day, eat the 1 or 2 big meals, then lie about the snacking.

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This way of eating is intended for people with some will power. If someone is "secret eating" they won't lose weight on any diet

this is an interesting thread. i think it would take me a while to train my body to only have two meals a day. its real hard for me to go 3 hours without having something to eat. i could not imagine waking up in the morning and waiting until lunch to have my first meal. i would go insane!

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Originally Posted by musclestack

My main issue with this is one that Twist pointed out in another thread about 'IF'. Let's say you're using this style of dieting to break through a plateau, but afterwards, change back to a 'typical' way of eating, say 6-8 meals a day. I would like to know from the people who have implemented this dieting, whether or not they have put on any body fat due to this. I know a lot of people complain that this happens after discontinuing keto....

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I don't personally think it would be much of an issue, if at all. 18 hours is not an extraordinary amount of time, and you are still eating on a daily basis. Remember that within your 6 hour feeding, you are consuming a day's worth of calories. Studies are starting to show that consuming calories over the course of several meals vs. 1 large meal (which I wouldn't personally do, i'd break it down to 3 meals over a 6 hour period) makes very little difference in terms of metabolism and/or bodyfat storage.

Keto is a whole other animal - you're literally changing your metabolism from a primarily glucose burning engine to a fat/ketone burning engine.

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Originally Posted by ADB007

This way of eating is intended for people with some will power. If someone is "secret eating" they won't lose weight on any diet

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It's funny, for people like me it might be just what I need. I'm an extremist; I know no middle ground. Give me a diet where I have a little leeway, and I completely F it up. I get into the mode of "ahh, I probably didn't quite hit 2500 calories today, I can have this granola bar..." etc. That's where things go wrong for me. With a diet like this, fasting, it's ALL OR NOTHING. Break the fast, game over - the whole point of the diet has been compromised.

Time will tell, i'm doing more research but I might actually give it a go. There are only 2 potential problems I see for myself:

1) I will have to switch back to an all am workout schedule again, so as to stay on target with my fast/eat/fast schedule. (cannot do 5x week PM)

2) Eating upwards of 300g of protein over the course of a day/7 meals isn't tough. Getting in that much protein in 3 meals/6 hours presents a problem IMO, unless alot of that is coming from shakes. I can only handle so much chicken, fish, etc. in a matter of hours. Carbs and fat on the other hand won't be a problem!

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Originally Posted by 00ragincajun00

this is an interesting thread. i think it would take me a while to train my body to only have two meals a day. its real hard for me to go 3 hours without having something to eat. i could not imagine waking up in the morning and waiting until lunch to have my first meal. i would go insane!

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The one thing I hate about this is no pre-workout meal, because IMO, in terms of training it's the most important meal of the day. That doesn't necessarily make it productive to fat loss though, so one has to pick the lesser of 2 evils. If you read up on it, you will see the alleged benefits of fasted training - although energy levels might not be optimal (equaling a sub par training session, grr) - the body supposedly adapts by 'enhancing' the anabolic environment PWO - when nutrients are finally introduced. I'll sure miss my oats and egg breakfasts though!

You may not be hungry though - picture eating 2000 + calories in a matter of a few hours - that's ALOT of food for your body to process in a short time.

GB, that is the way i am looking at it, as fuel. no way i could go run 6+ miles on an empty stomach in the morning and get a good workout. my muscles and body would want to shut down and cramp up. i would love to utilize the fat loss, but my training would suffer badly as a result of not having enough energy. and yes, it would be tough to stomach 2000 cals in a few hours, unless it was full of useless nutrition like fast food or something.

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Originally Posted by 00ragincajun00

GB, that is the way i am looking at it, as fuel. no way i could go run 6+ miles on an empty stomach in the morning and get a good workout. my muscles and body would want to shut down and cramp up. i would love to utilize the fat loss, but my training would suffer badly as a result of not having enough energy. and yes, it would be tough to stomach 2000 cals in a few hours, unless it was full of useless nutrition like fast food or something.

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Well, I may soon be giving a first hand account. Leangains has you taking 10g BCAA's prior to your workout. Hardly a meal, but it will help with regards to muscle breakdown.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Well, I may soon be giving a first hand account. Leangains has you taking 10g BCAA's prior to your workout. Hardly a meal, but it will help with regards to muscle breakdown.

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while that is true, what will be your fuel for your workouts? yesterdays 2000cal dinner? having a hard time seeing how the body will react to not having readily carbs there to burn as fuel during workouts. i am doing endurance workouts, so i do not think i could benefit from this type of dieting. if i were only bodybuilding/powerlifting, maybe. i understand the fact of getting all your macros/nutrients for the day, but in two meals? i get really shaky when i happen to skip a meal.

early last week, there were some articles referring to insulin. what kind of effect would this diet have on insulin?

Is there anyone who is carrying a lot of muscle tissue had any success with this method?

Good point^ or somebody on their verge of all natural potential

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Originally Posted by 00ragincajun00

while that is true, what will be your fuel for your workouts? yesterdays 2000cal dinner? having a hard time seeing how the body will react to not having readily carbs there to burn as fuel during workouts. i am doing endurance workouts, so i do not think i could benefit from this type of dieting. if i were only bodybuilding/powerlifting, maybe. i understand the fact of getting all your macros/nutrients for the day, but in two meals? i get really shaky when i happen to skip a meal.

early last week, there were some articles referring to insulin. what kind of effect would this diet have on insulin?

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To answer your first question - bodyfat would be the primary fuel source. Since the workout will come at around the 17 hour mark (into the fast), bodyfat will play a key role here. According to the articles, bodyfat becomes more readily available within the 11-18 hour window (optimal fat burning time). I agree that you probably will not feel that 'surge' like you do when having a big carb meal right before. But think of a CKD diet - you're getting NO carbs at all with the exception of a 1 day refeed.

Insulin will obviously skyrocket with the 1st meal after the fast as it will be extremely low. This of course will come PWO when you're in a very anabolic environment. You really need to read the articles if you want to understand this as i'm not doing it much justice with my explanation.

your right GB, going read the articles. i should have read them before i commented.

For anyone who is about average build, but needs to lose fat, and has no problem with feeling starving, then this diet will probably help you with your goals. However if you have an average build, and have no problem with feeling starved, then you probably don't need this diet.

If you are allowed BCAA then you should be allowed protein as long as it has no fat.

I would suggest that for most people the results are from not eating what they normally would during the day. Not sure but for most people I know eating 1,500 cals 40/40/20 of healthy food is pretty difficult. To each his own really.

I don't know all the details of the diet yet but I would say that if you can eat like a normal person within reason then do so and exercise to lose weight.

Marcus: there was somebody on here (who competes, idk if it was fireguy or someone else) who said that some competitors he knew were having some success with the method. Not sure about who said it though but I do remember hearing it.

I have continued to actively research this style of dieting and will be updating this thread with various comments (from random people just discussing/debating the topic) that strike me as interesting and/or relevant. I have already seen quite a few keepers before deciding to start posting them here, but not sure if i'll go back to find them again. Anyway, this first one is from somebody referring to the currently accepted 6-8 smaller meals per day...

To me it's like sleeping. It doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to sleep for 30 minutes every 3 hours. Sure, "technically" it's still 8 hours of sleep, but it's not the same.

Same with food, in my opinion. The problem is people looking at calories in a 24 hour period, as if the body waits until the end of the day to add sh!t up. You're either in a deficit, a balance, or a surplus(by conventional wisdom). Who says you can't be in all three at different times in the day?

Here's another:

Question: I always thought that fat loss was impossible without a caloric deficit? (regardless of whether it is induced by cardio or diet, or both)

Answer: You are in a deficit, during the fasting period. Then you use the overeating period after your workout to build muscle.

Lose fat, build muscle...what's so hard to understand. Sure, the concept is difficult when you've been brainwashed into believing you can only cut/bulk/maintain, or that you must strictly view diets as deficit or surplus over a 24 hour period.

Nark recently made a comment right along these lines. While he wasn't specifically talking about IF diets, he said something to the effect of "your body is in a constant process of building and breaking down, all throughout the day..."

Another:

The whole muscle breakdown/starvation mode arguement is so silly. If you go beyond the sacred 3 hours or even 24 without food your body isn't going to go ape sh!t. We've been here millions and millions of years, I think the body has learned a trick or two in that time.

There's no way you can be losing muscle at any appreciable rate by not eating protein every 3 hours.

And unless you're TRYING to lose muscle with cardio, I don't think it's gonna happen that easily.

It makes no sense if you think about it. A caveman spends the day moving, searching for food, chasing prey and the whole time he's losing muscle? fvck no, our bodies have glycogen stores and fat stores for a reason, and they are for energy when we have no food. If we burned muscle every time we excerted ourselves even minorly in a fasted state, cavemen would not have the muscle mass needed to run, fight, and survive, and the human race would not be here. Maybe aliens gave us protein bars every three hours so we could fuel our hunts and stayz anabolic! In my opinion our bodies never adapted to use food as an immediate source of energy. We evolved as energy storage machines.

And another:

The body was designed to function perfectly fine for short periods of time between meals (by short I mean daily, not every 2.61256 hours like people think).

How is being active and then feeding yourself fully later in the day somehow worse than chronically underfeeding your body for prolonged periods?

"I know, instead of giving our body everything it needs to replenish and rebuild itself every night, lets give our bodies just enough food to survive throughout the day. That way we can train out body to downregulate its metabolic function to match the piss-poor caloric intake it's getting with each sh!tty little mini-meal. If we're really lucky, the food will be just enough to inhibit fat use by the body, but not enough to meet energy demands!!"

Another:

People need to understand some basic terminology.

Metabolism- the complete set of chemical reactions occuring in the body needed for life

Catabolism- the breakdown of material for energy

Anabolism- the building of material from energy



Notice catabolism didn't say "burning biceps for fuel". Digestion, by nature is a catabolic event. The breakdown of nutrients for fuel.

Catabolism fuels Anabolism

Re-read that

Once you understand that, you can see how the body can breakdown food, fat, glucose, and old damaged muscle fibers and use it to rebuild new muscle and tissues.

Catabolism isn't to be feared, as long as Anabolism dominates. That's why it's important to get in enough food and nutrients. That's the "secret" to recomp. That's why the standard "Cut 500 cals, then divide the rest evenly between 6 meals" is retarded.

Give your body time to break stuff down, then give it what it needs to build back up.

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Originally Posted by marcus300

Is there anyone who is carrying a lot of muscle tissue had any success with this method?

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i know you guys have way more knowledge then me thats for sure but even if i knew absolutely nothing about diets. obviously we love muscle so wouldnt marcus make a lot of sense. i would assume everyone doing this diet turned out to be a skinny guy. see anything big dudes using this diet and continuing to get bigger? just a question/ thought

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Originally Posted by Standby

i know you guys have way more knowledge then me thats for sure but even if i knew absolutely nothing about diets. obviously we love muscle so wouldnt marcus make a lot of sense. i would assume everyone doing this diet turned out to be a skinny guy. see anything big dudes using this diet and continuing to get bigger? just a question/ thought

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Check out the clients and testimonials sections on www.leangains.com, under the results section.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Check out the clients and testimonials sections on www.leangains.com, under the results section.

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thanks for that GB interesting

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Originally Posted by Standby

thanks for that GB interesting

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The more I learn, the more sense this is making. I know there will be alot of people against this, but again, it's not new and it's not witchcraft. I will continue to research over the next couple of weeks, but I may have to guinea pig this one, I think it's worthy.

What exactly is the way this diet is used? And how many days is the fasting being done and how is it being done? I'm asking based on the research you are getting Gbrice. I have seen quite a few ways on doing it, which way in particular are you researching? The Warrior Diet?

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Originally Posted by falco21

What exactly is the way this diet is used? And how many days is the fasting being done and how is it being done? I'm asking based on the research you are getting Gbrice. I have seen quite a few ways on doing it, which way in particular are you researching? The Warrior Diet?

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The daily cycle of fasting/eating is indefinite. i.e. run it for as long as you like. From the feedback i'm gathering, many people seem to do so well on this type of plan, they stick with it regardless of having reached their goal. They are claiming constant hunger on the traditional 6-8 small meals/day (I can attest to this, i'm CONSTANTLY thinking of my next meal), and little to no hunger at all during the fasting period. This due to the very large meal consumption prior to the fast (a full day's worth of calories in 8 hours or less).

I started off researching leangains, but am now researching IF diets as a whole.

Another one:

On the topic of food/protein digestion, consider the fact that it takes 7 hrs for the body to assimilate 30 g's of casein. Simply put: during this timeframe, amino acids be released into your bloodstream and exert anticatabolic actions. That's from a mere 30 g; now consider doubling the amount, say 60 g, and you will have a constant supply of amino acids for most of your waking/sleeping hrs. Im providing an example in order to put things into perspective for those wondering about the trivial role meal frequency plays in amino acid metabolism, considering an adequate total protein intake.

What I'm asking though is I have seen this fasting diet done in many different ways. For example. Some people will fast on Monday. They will stop eating at around 3 in the afternoon and then at 3 pm the following day, they will eat all their calories from then until 9pm at night. Then they will continue eating normal and do a fast again on Friday, the same way. I have also heard people that do it every other day. What I'm asking is based on all these facts your finding, which way is the fasting being done? Or is it not stated?

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Originally Posted by falco21

What I'm asking though is I have seen this fasting diet done in many different ways. For example. Some people will fast on Monday. They will stop eating at around 3 in the afternoon and then at 3 pm the following day, they will eat all their calories from then until 9pm at night. Then they will continue eating normal and do a fast again on Friday, the same way. I have also heard people that do it every other day. What I'm asking is based on all these facts your finding, which way is the fasting being done? Or is it not stated?

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Ok, I see what you're getting at. I've seen 16/8, 18/6, 20/4, and so on (fast/eat). Leangains calls for 18/6. According to the author, fat loss is optimized somewhere within the 13th - 16th hour of a fast. So he recommends 18/6, and it's every day. Does this answer your question?

That's exactly what I was looking for! But I have a few more questions. I have been following this thread since I really want to try this to get through my plateau right now. I have read that this is an excellent way for fat loss and to get over that hump if your stuck. Basically if I were to follow the 18/6 fasting diet, what I understood from it is that for me, since I workout in the morning, I would drink my BCAA's 15 minutes before pre workout. Then train. BCAA's again split twice between 8am-10am. Then from 12-1 pm I would eat the largest meal of the day. Then at 8-9pm I would eat the last meal before the fast.

My question is, If I were to do this, what would my two meals look like and how many calories and other macros should I be shooting for? What foods would be involved in these meals?

I am putting a female client on this diet to see how it works out. 18 hour fast, 6 hour feed split into two meals. Starting at 1200cals and then moving up to 15-1800cals.

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Originally Posted by falco21

Basically if I were to follow the 18/6 fasting diet, what I understood from it is that for me, since I workout in the morning, I would drink my BCAA's 15 minutes before pre workout. Then train. BCAA's again split twice between 8am-10am. Then from 12-1 pm I would eat the largest meal of the day. Then at 8-9pm I would eat the last meal before the fast.

My question is, If I were to do this, what would my two meals look like and how many calories and other macros should I be shooting for? What foods would be involved in these meals?

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Understanding that i'm starting my research at the beginning of Leangains - i.e. about 4 years back. I can only understand it fully if I see how it developed and was refined over the years. With that, I see some people breaking their fast with a pre-workout meal (not just BCAA's, but a full on meal), and others actually claiming MORE energy when working out fasted, so they break it with a PWO meal.

In either case, your PWO meal should be the biggest. I'd make it about 1/2 of your total caloric intake. Nothing else changes; you stick with the same total macros that you'd normally split over 6-8 meals. Also, you don't HAVE to take 8 hours to eat your food. If you want to eat in a 4 hour window then get back on the fast, you can do that (it doesn't work the other way around though, you can't exceed 8 hours). You can eat your food in one huge single meal (seems impossible if you're eating wholesome food), 2 meals, or 20 meals - it doesn't matter, as long as you're hitting your caloric goal, and staying within the alloted 8 hour 'feasting' window.

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Originally Posted by Twist

I am putting a female client on this diet to see how it works out. 18 hour fast, 6 hour feed split into two meals. Starting at 1200cals and then moving up to 15-1800cals.

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Twist, i'm glad to see you're willing to try this although you sounded skeptical at first. If you don't plan to update here regularly, would you mind PMing me with her progress? Obviously, I have a vested interest.

I used this style of dieting for about 8 weeks. I was maintaining my weight. My body composition got a little bit better. I can't really say it was better or worse than spreading out my calories, but it was kind of hard to eat so much all at once.

I'm going to try the FASTing Diet.
174lbs
5'9
12%
looking to get to 7% 170lbs

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Twist, i'm glad to see you're willing to try this although you sounded skeptical at first. If you don't plan to update here regularly, would you mind PMing me with her progress? Obviously, I have a vested interest.

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I'm always willing to try new things. That's the reason I like personal training, because I can experiment on people!

Her stats:
5-3
120lbs
23%bf or so.
Gains fat like a man. All around the stomach, super lean legs, upper body lean except some fat on her arms. She looks great but we just can't get the extra weight from around the waist.
Diets Completed:
2,000 cal maintenance to increase muscle mass to offset fat balance.
800cal maintenance to get rid of fat, went from 126ish to 123
Calorie cycle 2500cal refeed (sunday) to 300cals at the end of the week (saturday), went from 123 - 120. Touched 118 but couldn't maintain with vacations.
IF diet, 1200 cals starting at about a 50/25/25 split Diet started today 4/30/2011
Next diet if this fails is keto.

Training:
cardio 6 days per week running. If her knee hurts its recumbent bike.
Weight training 3x per week with me - legs, upper push, upper pull

Nice. How long will her fasts be? 18 hours? What time of day will she train? How long will you have her run this before u decide whether it 'passes or fails'?

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Originally Posted by Twist

If you are allowed BCAA then you should be allowed protein as long as it has no fat.

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To address this - the answer is no. It's not about fat, it's about minimal calories for maximum 'bang'. Whey protein is about 25% BCAA, so you would need alot more of it to get what straight BCAA will provide. We are trying to maintain as close to fasted state as possible, but conceding the 'lesser of 2 evils' in order to avoid muscle breakdown and keep protein synthesis stimulated.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Nice. How long will her fasts be? 18 hours? What time of day will she train? How long will you have her run this before u decide whether it 'passes or fails'?

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18 hour fast training times vary. Weights will be done in the middle of her "feast" time so that pwo is the last meal and will consist of fewer carbs. Some days cardio is done at night after all feasting, sometimes cardio is done in the morning. Tuesday is the only rest day and sometimes not even that. As of today she has gained some weight back at 1200 cals. We are scaling back carbs even more at night.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

To address this - the answer is no. It's not about fat, it's about minimal calories for maximum 'bang'. Whey protein is about 25% BCAA, so you would need alot more of it to get what straight BCAA will provide. We are trying to maintain as close to fasted state as possible, but conceding the 'lesser of 2 evils' in order to avoid muscle breakdown and keep protein synthesis stimulated.

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Good point. She is not doing any bcaa or anything so that should not be a problem.