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  1. #1
    Dr Pepper's Avatar
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    AR's Diet Forum vs. My Gym

    So after the last few weeks of tweaking my diet on this forum we all finally got it right, BIG thanks to all you guys who helped me. My personal trainer said she wanted to have a look at my new diet, so I gave her a copy. She went through the diet with two other PT's from the gym and the pt manager.

    Here's a link of my diet that you all helped me create for those that don't remember:

    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...)#.TnKUzSphjTo

    And here's the changes that they all came up with from my gym:



    Meal 1 –Should be consumed before morning walk to kickstart metabolism and get it started for the day. What you consume here, will be burnt during your walk

    Fruit salad with berries and a tblsp Jalna yoghurt
    -strawberries
    -blueberries
    -banana
    -apple

    Meal 2
    High fibre:
    -porriage
    -1/4 cup high quality muslie (fruit free) with organic high fat yoghurt (ie, jalna/biodynamic)
    -eggs with mushrooms,tomato,avocado,and ¼ cup brown rice

    Meal3
    150g chicken
    brown rice ½ cup
    almonds
    broccoli, mushrooms, green salad mix

    Meal4
    200g Salmon (fresh),or tuna, eggs, baked beans,chicken
    sweet potato, cucumber, zucchini, mushrooms,green beans
    brown rice or dark rye bread (1slice) with tblspn of avocado

    Meal5
    yoghurt (200g)with berries
    tbls of walnuts (chopped)

    Meal6- No later than 7:15pm, your body wont absorb the nutrients properly if you eat later in the night
    5x eggs (2whole 3 whites)
    mushrooms, steemed green vegies, mixed salads
    herbs and spices.


    NOTE:
    I want you to try and get your energy and nutrients from whole and nutritious foods,
    its really important that you have your first meal before your morning walk as it will get your glucose stores up which sustain energy throughout the day, don’t worry! You will burn the calories of this meal on your walk anyway. In this meal plan you are still consuming approximately the same amount of calories, but once again from a larger variety and more nutritious foods. With your protein shake id really like you to replace it with a meal, however if you prefer the protein shake i would recommend a complete protein, called optifast.
    For more info on foods and things you might like to add into your diet have a look at ck.com
    Last edited by Dr Pepper; 09-15-2011 at 06:25 PM.

  2. #2
    Dr Pepper's Avatar
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    Few things I'm concerned about.

    1. There's no macro's. Any half decent diet has macro's.

    2. What's the point of eating before my AM cardio if I'm trying to cut? rhetorical, there is none...

    3. Possibly not enough protein

    4. Saying not to worry about carbs to much, when I'm trying cut...


    To be honest I don't like this new diet, to much variety and just not very well put together so il be staying on my diet that we created on this forum. But I would like to bring up those things I think are wrong with it.

    So if anyone else can point out flaws in that diet that I could bring up please let me know??

    Thanks
    DP
    Last edited by Dr Pepper; 09-15-2011 at 06:27 PM.

  3. #3
    gbrice75's Avatar
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    Tbh, I didn't read past "Meal 1 –Should be consumed before morning walk to kickstart metabolism and get it started for the day. What you consume here, will be burnt during your walk"

    We want to burn bodyfat, not dietary carbs eaten right before your walk. WTF is the point of that? We fuel activities that have a high energy requirement, such as weight training, or HIIT - not a brisk walk. There's a reason it's called FASTED cardio!

  4. #4
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    the only thing id take before morning cardio would be like a cup of black coffee, a caffeine tab (200mg), and possibly some l-carnitine. whats the point of eating right before cardio if you want to be powered by your own fat storages??

  5. #5
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    I didnt bother to read the link to your diet here. If the calories are the same and the macros close - its not gonna make any difference one way or another. Micronutrient rich whole foods and nutritionally dense foods are always better simply for overall health reasons. 6 of 1 half dozen of another I suspect. Use eithe rone or a combo of both and dont worry about when you do your cardio IMO - just do it.

  6. #6
    Dr Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    Tbh, I didn't read past "Meal 1 –Should be consumed before morning walk to kickstart metabolism and get it started for the day. What you consume here, will be burnt during your walk"

    We want to burn bodyfat, not dietary carbs eaten right before your walk. WTF is the point of that? We fuel activities that have a high energy requirement, such as weight training, or HIIT - not a brisk walk. There's a reason it's called FASTED cardio!
    Yeah agreed GB I was really disappointed when I read that!... Which il be bringing up. But is there any thing else you see wrong?

  7. #7
    Dr Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino6218 View Post
    the only thing id take before morning cardio would be like a cup of black coffee, a caffeine tab (200mg), and possibly some l-carnitine. whats the point of eating right before cardio if you want to be powered by your own fat storages??
    Agreed. Seems we all think the same here. Just doesn't add up to me, a fee qualified PT's went over it and came up with that conclusion of eating before fasted cardio. Hmmm very odd

  8. #8
    SexySweetheart is offline "Decide you want it ƸӜƷ more than your afraid of it"Recognized Member Winner - $100
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    I know a lot, about a very little...so before I comment on most things, I do research, lots of research. Having said that, as Im sure you know~ I am no expert on fitness/nutrition and have commitment issues with dieting -lol HOWEVER from what I have experianced with my personal nutritionlist and trainer(s) and this site as well as the racearch that surprisingly showed me how the government twists studies on food and health in order to push their own agendas (ie. american eating habbits/food grown and consumed) and black list scietist that expose differnt oppions than the Gov. desires ~ the only true fact that I believe to be correct is that the human body stores fat ( inadipocytes cells are fat cells) the number of fat cells are determained by toddlerhood, inadipocytes cells expand and contract through out our lives due to hormonal instruction, hormones are regulated by insulin , insulin is regualted by sugar and carbs we intake. PERIOD.
    (sugar and carbs in any form)
    so if a person is seeking to drop fat, they need to shrink their fat cells, ie. regulate their insuline by depriving the body of sugars and carbs to istruct their hormons to release the chem that trigger fat cells to release stored fat, hence shrinking. Animal fats provide the same energy used by the human body as carbs. Let me repeat that ANIMAL fats provide the same energy needed to be consumed by humans as carbs do...with out neg effecting one's insoline levels/hormones/fat storage. Where fat is stored on the body is a direct result of hormones as well...estrogine=hips/butt, testostrone=belly...also estrogine triggers more fat storage/resistance of fat cells to release fat that is stored for enegry.
    ^ those are the hard core truths. google any of that and it well be varified by science...not to be confused with fad diets/ trainers that need an edge to sell services / product pushes that twist an tweak the facts to appear to have solved fat problems.

    so looking to cut would mean that you want to shrink fat cells...
    get fiber from sugar free carb free fiber tablets instaed a porage rice potatoes or veggies
    get vitamins need by sugar free carb free pills or veggys with practicaly no carbs /sugars

    even if you have like no subcutaneous fat, your body has enuff stored fat/ viseral fat for a meesley morning cardio to use as energy (lol duh,... i could live weeks on a crashed plane in the mountains before I had to eat anyone lol) use your morining cardio to motovate your body to tap into its own reserves

    all imo anyway, im sure its not popular oppinion ~ but you have encouraged me in my threads so I felt obligated to share what I have learned with you ~ even if I myself cant follow what I know lol
    regarless of how strick you are or what you follow, you are watching what you eat and training so you will be seeing some results
    best of luck PEPPER!

  9. #9
    Dr Pepper's Avatar
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    Thanks Sexy. It's was a really good read! You are one smart cookie! Il see u around the board :-)

  10. #10
    Dr Pepper's Avatar
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    Can someone answer me this:

    What's the Differance between my shake And Optifast?

    Is the statement made in meal 6 true?

  11. #11
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    1 sachet of Optifast has 20g of carbs, 4g of fat and 14g of protein .

    Your shake has 1g carbs, 0g fat and 42g of protein!

  12. #12
    Dr Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonta66 View Post
    1 sachet of Optifast has 20g of carbs, 4g of fat and 14g of protein .

    Your shake has 1g carbs, 0g fat and 42g of protein!
    Seriously wtf!

  13. #13
    Back In Black's Avatar
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    Ha ha ha, I love personal trainers and what they learn from text books. Not entirely their fault but unless they experiment on themselves, they have no idea what really works or is practical. In my experience most PT's are either out of shape or have some god given genetic gift that it doesn't matter how much booze they drink and crap food they eat, they still maintain good physiques.

    What kind of physiques do these PT's have? ANd what are their diets?

    What they suggest looks like it's been lifted from a mens health magazine and covers all their bases. You have a specific to you diet. They have provided a generic diet.

    Want to know how it will work? Follow your new diet formed from this forum for a month. Then try theirs for a month. You'll soon know.

  14. #14
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    You should just tell them your doing their diet, but really do the one you got here. Then when you start burning all that fat, they will say "Wow! That diet we gave you is really working!" You respond telling them actually you have been following the original diet I had from the boards. =)

    In all honesty though, I have been there in that situation, and I'll tell you this, those PT's have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to diet. Unless of course, you get a handful that really take pride in what they do, and do it properly. Put it this way. I have two friends that I went to school with. One kid was about 160 lbs. wet. The kid was a toothpick. The other kid was "skinny ripped", but ate McDonald's everyday! Well, the other day I was talking to my girl about the gym, and she happens to tell me that these 2 kids are actually trainers at our local LA Fitness. Now, how in the hell did these 2 become trainers?!

    The people on this board, know what they are talking about, and have tested the advice they give. I can guarantee you, there are not many on here that are telling you things they learned in a textbook. The people here practice what they preach. They live it. It's your choice who you follow.

  15. #15
    gbrice75's Avatar
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    I generally agree about PT's not knowing shit. There are always exceptions to the rule of course, but in my experience most haven't a clue, especially the ones who work for gyms. I have yet to see a PT in my gym whose physique I admire.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteM View Post
    Want to know how it will work? Follow your new diet formed from this forum for a month. Then try theirs for a month. You'll soon know.
    And I bet AR WINS! I've tried almost everything and for the first time found the magic formula here~

    And to you SEXY~ GREAT POST

    Life is too short, so kiss slowly, laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly.
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  17. #17
    SexySweetheart is offline "Decide you want it ƸӜƷ more than your afraid of it"Recognized Member Winner - $100
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    @ FALCO....bahahahaha agree!
    @ PEPPER/SM ~thanks, I hope it is helpful some

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    Tbh, I didn't read past "Meal 1 –Should be consumed before morning walk to kickstart metabolism and get it started for the day. What you consume here, will be burnt during your walk"

    We want to burn bodyfat, not dietary carbs eaten right before your walk. WTF is the point of that? We fuel activities that have a high energy requirement, such as weight training, or HIIT - not a brisk walk. There's a reason it's called FASTED cardio!
    After years of doing fasted am cardio and cardio PWO my concept of "the best time" has dramatically changed. While I often still do cardio at these times its more out of convenience than the belief that it makes any difference at all. The body is much more complicated than that and IMO (along with others like Aragon for example) it doesnt make any difference whatsoever when you do cardio. If you burn more calories than you take in - you lose weight. In fact (being devils advocate) in all reality fasted am cardio could theoretically COST you muscle Eating upon waking blunts circadian cortisol (the reason we wake up in the first place) as well as causes somewhat of a shift from a catabolic to anabolic state. The very reason for this is one of the reasons people use to justify fasted cardio - insulin . The last 2 sentences are all speculative but maybe if you DO lose any more weight doing fasted am - thats because its muscle - not fat.
    While that is speculative for sure - what isnt IMO is that you cant fool the body - do cardio whenever you can and if you use the appropriate way to measure fat loss (which is bf%)I think you would find your results are the same.
    Just a few thoughts and some statements on how my personal opinion has evolved. If nothing else fuel for debate.

  19. #19
    gbrice75's Avatar
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    I agree about cardio timing being more 'splitting hairs' than anything, however I don't believe in fueling up for LIC. IMO, if you're going to eat a meal when you wake up, just forego the am cardio all together and do a heavier/HIIT session PWO, or another time of the day.

    i.e. if you (collectively speaking) feel eating upon waking is extremely beneficial, then by all means do it (I agree with a solid meal in the am, and have always pushed this idea) but I wouldn't follow it with cardio. It's a waste IMO. A waste of a meal (fueling cardio) and a waste of cardio (burning what you just ate vs. fat stores).

    Nothing wrong with a brief fasted cardio session upon waking, followed immediately by a solid meal, with carbs and all. IMHO.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    I agree about cardio timing being more 'splitting hairs' than anything, however I don't believe in fueling up for LIC. IMO, if you're going to eat a meal when you wake up, just forego the am cardio all together and do a heavier/HIIT session PWO, or another time of the day.

    i.e. if you (collectively speaking) feel eating upon waking is extremely beneficial, then by all means do it (I agree with a solid meal in the am, and have always pushed this idea) but I wouldn't follow it with cardio. It's a waste IMO. A waste of a meal (fueling cardio) and a waste of cardio (burning what you just ate vs. fat stores).

    Nothing wrong with a brief fasted cardio session upon waking, followed immediately by a solid meal, with carbs and all. IMHO.
    My opinion now is more along the line that nutrient timing is essentially irrelavent. It doesnt matter when you eat calories or when you burn them , at the end of the day (metaphorically speaking because even the daily concept is uncessary- just a tangable way for us to measure) if you burn more calories than you take in you lose weight.

    Ive toyed with the idea of can you "cycle" cardio - fasted / fueled to "trick" the body blah blah blah but to be honest at this stage im tired of wasting so much time on theory and planning. Intellectual workouts in addition too actual workouts. I more along the lines of keeping it simple - do it when you can but just do it (Goes for everything - eating / cardio/weights)

    While im certain it all works (I know it firsthand and I'm always up for good discussions like take place here) Ive realized personally that complicating or working so hard to supposedly "optimize" things has really turned out not to make a difference.

    Here some fuel for the debate fire - suppose eating prior to cardio provides you with the energy to increase the intensity of the cardio you do. Would that not result in increased fat loss? (again simply fuel for debate)
    Last edited by jimmyinkedup; 09-16-2011 at 12:41 PM.

  21. #21
    gbrice75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    My opinion now is more along the line that nutrient timing is essentially irrelavent. It doesnt matter when you eat calories or when you burn them , at the end of the day (metaphorically speaking because even the daily concept is uncessary- just a tangable way for us to measure) if you burn more calories than you take in you lose weight.
    This is exactly why I feel nutrient timing DOES matter! Since the 24 hour concept is useless with the exception of giving us a way to measure as you pointed out (which I agree 100% with, for the record), what then is the cutoff? 36 hours? 48? None of the above?

    I believe we are in caloric deficits, caloric surpluses, and caloric maintenance levels all throughout the 'day' (i.e. all the time), at different times of course. Therefore, if you are doing fasted cardio in the am, you can be certain that you are at a deficit, at that time. (even if you didn't do cardio then, it's pretty safe to assume you are in a deficit at that time due to the fast).

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    Here some fuel for the debate fire - suppose eating prior to cardio provides you with the energy to increase the intensity of the cardio you do. Would that not result in increased fat loss? (again simply fuel for debate)
    Absolutely!!! But that's the point - to make the cardio effective after fueling, you MUST increase the intensity. i.e. eating and then doing LIC is going to be very effective at burning any fat, it may even be counter productive. Eating and doing HIIT for instance? Hell, I wouldn't do HIIT fasted, ever.... so I would say most definitely, go for it.

    For the record, i'm not really hell bent one way or the other, just enjoying the debate.

    For me personally, I do best on am fasted cardio, low-med. intensity, steady state. 30-45 mins, with a second session PWO of a higher intensity, and/or HIIT for 20 mins, followed by med. intensity steady state. That's the formula that works for me. Everybody is different.
    Last edited by gbrice75; 09-16-2011 at 01:30 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    This is exactly why I feel nutrient timing DOES matter! Since the 24 hour concept is useless with the exception of giving us a way to measure as you pointed out (which I agree 100% with, for the record), what then is the cutoff? 36 hours? 48? None of the above?

    I believe we are in caloric deficits, caloric surpluses, and caloric maintenance levels all throughout the 'day' (i.e. all the time), at different times of course. Therefore, if you are doing fasted cardio in the am, you can be certain that you are at a deficit, at that time. (even if you didn't do cardio then, it's pretty safe to assume you are in a deficit at that time due to the fast).



    Absolutely!!! But that's the point - to make the cardio effective after fueling, you MUST increase the intensity. i.e. eating and then doing LIC is going to be very effective at burning any fat, it may even be counter productive. Eating and doing HIIT for instance? Hell, I wouldn't do HIIT fasted, ever.... so I would say most definitely, go for it.

    For the record, i'm not really hell bent one way or the other, just enjoying the debate. same here of course!!

    For me personally, I do best on am fasted cardio, low-med. intensity, steady state. 30-45 mins, with a second session PWO of a higher intensity, and/or HIIT for 20 mins, followed by med. intensity steady state. That's the formula that works for me. Everybody is different.
    So I think we agree the "day" concept is only prudent as it is a tangible way to measure. However my contention is that it doesnt matter when throiughout that day the calories are taken in or burned. The end result is the same. Also i dont think it matters hi or low intenstiy cardio post eating. For example if you do low intensity post eating or fasted you burn the same amount of calories. At the end of the "day" - you will lose the same IMO.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    So I think we agree the "day" concept is only prudent as it is a tangible way to measure. However my contention is that it doesnt matter when throiughout that day the calories are taken in or burned. The end result is the same.
    Let me hit you with this - if you consumed a decent amount of calories right before hitting the pillow (your most inactive time, so safe to say this would put you in a surplus at that point in time?), you feel the end result would be the same as when those same calories were consumed earlier in the day, while still being somewhat active?

    And when is 'the end'? What constitutes the end?

    lol, this is getting more philosophical on my part, sorry!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    Also i dont think it matters hi or low intenstiy cardio post eating. For example if you do low intensity post eating or fasted you burn the same amount of calories. At the end of the "day" - you will lose the same IMO.
    Calories, maybe - but we're concerned with burning bodyfat, not just calories indiscriminately, wouldn't you agree? i.e. calories burned doesn't always equate to fat burned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    Let me hit you with this - if you consumed a decent amount of calories right before hitting the pillow (your most inactive time, so safe to say this would put you in a surplus at that point in time?), you feel the end result would be the same as when those same calories were consumed earlier in the day, while still being somewhat active?

    And when is 'the end'? What constitutes the end?

    lol, this is getting more philosophical on my part, sorry!!



    Calories, maybe - but we're concerned with burning bodyfat, not just calories indiscriminately, wouldn't you agree? i.e. calories burned doesn't always equate to fat burned.
    If you are eating 500 under tdee to cut ...i do not believe it matters if you ate all your calories first thing in the am ...or right before bed. The outcome and total fat loss would end up being exactly the same. The way to burn bodyfat is to use more calories that you take in ...so if you take in 500 under maintenance - regadless of when you eat or what you do after eating - you will ultimately burn the same amount of bodyfat. There is no "idescriminant" burning of calroies. When you burn them means nothing. Its calories in vs calories out.
    Great discussion G !

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup View Post
    Great discussion G !
    x2! Would love to hear others chime in as well... not necessarily to debate myself or Jimmy (but feel free also), just to offer an opinion or yet another point of view. This is how we all learn new things guys. The principles I believe today differ greatly from what I firmly believed a year ago, 6 months ago, even 3 months ago.

    It's not flakiness guys, this game is a constant progression, learning new things, seeing things in a different light.

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    I'll bite.

    Question for Jimmy. Do you feel that AM fasted cardio does not change the ratio of carbs vs fats burned (in favor of more fats obviously), or do you think that it's irrelevant because a calorie is a calorie?

    IMO, whether or not fasted cardio is more beneficial is like most other things, individual dependant. For example, someone who is 20% BF is probably gonna see the exact same results no matter when they do their cardio. But, someone who is 10% trying to get to 8% who is still holding fat in a stubborn area, I feel, can benefit from fasted cardio. Mostly because fat mobilization can be a problem in these stubborn areas and if the body has any other fuel option to burn, it will burn that other option rather than mobilize that last bit of fat from the stubborn area. Then again, maybe some people don't have these stubborn areas and can achieve a very low BF via other forms of cardio because they lose fat evenly from all over the body.

    BTW, nice thread and thanks for not posting a bunch of useless studies. I'm sure we could all find countless studies that support whichever side we tend to agree with.

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    Good to see you back around Sgt, been wondering what happened to you! Excellent post, great question/position. Agreed about the studies; there are plenty to support both arguments. We're running with our own theories and experiences here. For once, screw the studies!

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    Here is my take: For those who are embarking on a new eating plan to lose BF, I suggest fasted cardio since it is DONE and over with thus guaranteed as opposed to LIFE getting in the way for a later cardio.

    Plus it raises the metabolism earlier in the day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman View Post
    I'll bite.

    Question for Jimmy. Do you feel that AM fasted cardio does not change the ratio of carbs vs fats burned (in favor of more fats obviously), or do you think that it's irrelevant because a calorie is a calorie?
    I now think more along the lines of a calorie is a calorie (it was far from always the case in my mind btw). Only in the context of this debate also - not with regard to nutritional value and healthy food choices.
    So what if you temporarily shift your energy source (bodyfat vs carbs) at one point vs another or even all at once as opposed to spread out throuhout the day? That is essentially irrelavant if you are in a caloric deficit as ultimately the way the body works and adapts you will be required to call upon the same amount of bodyfat for fuel regardless. The body is way ahead of us - as Gbrice pointed out we are at caloric deficits and surpluses throughout the day but IMO the timing of these is irerlavent. The need for energy ultimately remains the same - your body will draw upon whatever resource required whenever it is required. Whats the diff if you burn bodyfat in the am or in the evening or whenever for that matter. I no longer believe you can effectively "trick" the body doing fasted cardio. If the though process of fasted cardio holds true then how is it people who eat every 2 hours manage to efficiently lose bodyfat? (btw meal frequency necessity is another thing I no longer obsessively incorporate as i have in the past) Wouldnt they just primarily use the carbs for energy all day- robbing themselves of fat burning potential of fasted followed by activity? Of course not because the are inherently burning bodyfat because they use more calories than they take in. Are they hindering fatloss by supplying a steady stream of carbs? Of course not because they are burning more calories then they are taking in so the body utilizes the same amount of bodyfat either way.
    My thoughts on this and other topics have evloved and I have to be honest I have incorporated a less rigid meal frequency (just hit my daily macros- sometimes 3 meals sometimes 5 or 6) and less rigid emphaisi on cardio timing (sometimes fasted ,, sometimes post wo , sometimes after a meal , whenever) and it has actually made no difference. Could it be individual? Perhaps, however it should be said I am def an endomorph , i am insulin resistant , it seems at times that while i can build muscle fairly easily my body almost seems to want me to be fat! That being said these changes have had no adverse impact on me or my progress whatsoever. Given the conditions I described above, based on the premis by which fasted cardio is touted, I would tend to think fasted cardio would make a dramatic difference for me - but it currently doesnt. Now I am not currentlky in the realm of single digit bf% - in the past when i was i did fasted cardio and frwequent meals. This time as i approach single digits i will continue the way i am and should then be able to better compare but I strongly suspect it wont make any difference. So far there is no indication it will.
    Last edited by jimmyinkedup; 09-16-2011 at 10:14 PM.

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    IDK if I agree with a lot of what is said so far... I'll just go with the Dr's post to stay on topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Pepper View Post
    So after the last few weeks of tweaking my diet on this forum we all finally got it right, BIG thanks to all you guys who helped me. My personal trainer said she wanted to have a look at my new diet, so I gave her a copy. She went through the diet with two other PT's from the gym and the pt manager.

    Here's a link of my diet that you all helped me create for those that don't remember:

    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...)#.TnKUzSphjTo

    And here's the changes that they all came up with from my gym:



    Meal 1 –Should be consumed before morning walk to kickstart metabolism and get it started for the day. What you consume here, will be burnt during your walk Stupid. Also why are you walking? Are you 85 years old? HIIT or bust

    Fruit salad with berries and a tblsp Jalna yoghurt
    -strawberries
    -blueberries
    -banana
    -apple
    Definitely not precardio. This was a stupid thing to suggest.

    Meal 2
    High fibre:
    -porriage
    -1/4 cup high quality muslie (fruit free) with organic high fat yoghurt (ie, jalna/biodynamic)
    -eggs with mushrooms,tomato,avocado,and ¼ cup brown rice
    IF it fits your macros than it's great. Good luck getting it to fit your macros.

    Meal3
    150g chicken
    brown rice ½ cup
    almondsTake out the almonds
    broccoli, mushrooms, green salad mix

    Meal4
    200g Salmon (fresh),or tuna, eggs, baked beans,chicken
    sweet potato, cucumber, zucchini, mushrooms,green beans
    brown rice or dark rye bread (1slice) with tblspn of avocado
    Did they just throw every food they could think of in this meal? You need to limit this to a couple of sources, leave the veggies

    Meal5
    yoghurt (200g)with berries
    tbls of walnuts (chopped)
    Why someone would ever recommend eating dairy, fat, and sugar all in the same meal is beyond me. Let's break this down: SPike insulin + eat dietary fat - protein = insulin pushes fat sources into fat cells

    Meal6- No later than 7:15pm, your body wont absorb the nutrients properly if you eat later in the nightThat is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. What do they think that being in a horizontal position your body will now choose to throw away all food consumed? Link me to that study lol.
    5x eggs (2whole 3 whites)
    mushrooms, steemed green vegies, mixed salads
    herbs and spices.
    Not a bad meal but I prefer to eat red meat last. I find it increases quality of sleep, just my opinion.

    NOTE:
    I want you to try and get your energy and nutrients from whole and nutritious foods,
    its really important that you have your first meal before your morning walk as it will get your glucose stores up which sustain energy throughout the dayand the cardio your about to do. Let's spend all night depleting stores just to fill them back up before we try to burn fat., don’t worry! You will burn the calories of this meal on your walk anyway Correct! Prior meal + cardio = net loss of ZERO. See who said math isn't fun.. In this meal plan you are still consuming approximately the same amount of calories, but once again from a larger variety and more nutritious foods. With your protein shake id really like you to replace it with a mealHey at least you can take something away from this, however if you prefer the protein shake i would recommend a complete protein, called optifast.Yeah cuz other protein sources aren't complete?
    For more info on foods and things you might like to add into your diet have a look at ck.com
    The diet is superior to one on this board as far as variety of foods and nutrients. However good luck trying to get it to fit your macros.
    Every thursday/friday/saturday I go do muay thai on an empty stomach. This is the most intense cardio sessions I have ever done (probably). It's an hour of brutal work. You slow down and you get punched or kicked. How's that for some motivation. I have not lost a pound from doing this on an empty stomach. DO you know why? Because I spike my insulin levels prior to the workout by drinking a gatorade and some honey. There's no way I consume more than I burn but by spiking my insulin I don't burn through muscle/fat. The body does not burn fat when insulin is present. So now think twice about that pre-cardio meal.

    I will say that even when cutting carbs are not your enemy. Fat is your enemy. You want to watch insulin spikes/food combinations a lot more closely than when you are bulking but fat intake = fat gain. Your body will not turn protein to fat and your body will only turn carbs to fat if:
    1. You eat a MASSIVE amount of carbs or
    2. Your fat intake is less than 10% of your total caloric intake for a normal human being consumption (1000-2,000 cals)
    Even if your body decided to take in carbs or protein and turn it into fat it would take so much energy to do so that you would only get a fraction of what you ingested. Take in 100 cals of fat and you receive 100cals of fat storage. Simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimmerMe View Post
    Here is my take: For those who are embarking on a new eating plan to lose BF, I suggest fasted cardio since it is DONE and over with thus guaranteed as opposed to LIFE getting in the way for a later cardio.

    Plus it raises the metabolism earlier in the day.
    You bring up a good point Slimmer. While i dont think the fasted matters or when the increase in metabolism occurs as far as fatloss, I do agree that doing it in the am affords the opportunity to get it done regardless of what the rest of the day may bring. Also the "boost" you speak of is a nice way to start the day as well. I often still do this for those very reasons - just not because I think I burn more fat this way.

    Also I keep saying "am doing" and "still do". The fact is it what I WAS doing prior to tearing my acl & mcl early in July. Then we had a baby and i rushed my recovery - didnt rest properly and started rehabing too intensly (ironically primarily with cardio) - riding a bike. Now i may be facing surgery. So my experience with this concept of cardio timing and its insignificance has been temporarily derailed. Although as i said it was making no difference in my progress. Just doesnt feel right implying im doing this right now when the fact is im icing my knee on the couch as I type this!

    Oh and Dr Pep - sorry if this thread got derailed - twist seems to have brought it back to your specific diet .
    Last edited by jimmyinkedup; 09-17-2011 at 08:35 AM.

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    Low intensity AM cardio < HIIT later

    UNless you have an unreasonable amount of muscle or an unreasonably low bf then you should not be doing anything low intensity. If you have an unreasonably high bf then you should barely be doing anything medium intensity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    Low intensity AM cardio < HIIT later

    UNless you have an unreasonable amount of muscle or an unreasonably low bf then you should not be doing anything low intensity. If you have an unreasonably high bf then you should barely be doing anything medium intensity.
    ^^^Couldn't agree more. I get so sick of people who are >20% BF using the excuse of not wanting to burn up their LBM as an excuse to do lazy half ass cardio.

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    Yeah I personally dont think it makes any difference (from purely a fatloss perspective- cardio health etc aside) if your cardio is a leisurely walk in the park or interval sprints. When all is said and done (all things equal ie: macros and only them because body composition is our concern - not just total weight) if you take in the same amount of calories under your ACCURATE TDEE - regardless of what activites you do -you will lose the same amount of weight. The point can not be made that HIC increases metabolism more etc because if tdee is accurate your caloric intake would be adjusted according based on activity level. It really is as simple as calories in vs calories out. Insulin blahblahblah - our body produces insulin all day - after every meal for sure. To say we cant lose bodyfat due to the prescense of insulin makes no sesne whatsoever imo (no offence intended to those who believe thats the case). Whatever limitation on fatloss people believe that an insulin relase may cause will later be comepensated for allowing for an equal result. IMO your overall diet and macros should address any insulin resistance you do or do not have. When u do cardio is IMO moot.

    Im injured right now - i cant do cardio. I have a newborn baby and much less time. I have adjusted my calories and continued upper body training at home as best I can with my avail resources. After a couplke weeks of tweeking im losing bodyfat. I will lose bodyfat just as efficiently as I was. This is becauseas I have compensated for any decrease in activity or metabolism by an adjutment in calories. My body produces insulin all day. After i eat - hell after i chew a piece of gum - yet i can still burn just as much bodyfat.

    It wasnt all that long ago i was on the other side of most of these contentions - as many are. Debating vehemently all the points others bring up. Now I simply believe that as much as we want to complicate things and think we have found some magical "better" way- some things like this really are just this basic and simple. We so underestimate the bodies adapatation ability etc- you cant fool it.

    Anyway - I love a good discussion, carried on maturely, knowledgably and respectfully as exemplifed here. Always learning from this place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    Low intensity AM cardio < HIIT later
    Both > either by itself

    UNless you have an unreasonable amount of muscle or an unreasonably low bf then you should not be doing anything low intensity. If you have an unreasonably high bf then you should barely be doing anything medium intensity.[/QUOTE]

    Not sure I agree with this, but i'll withold judgement until I hear more. What would you deem low intensity. Please give me an example of low intensity on the stepmill, treadmill, and elliptical (speeds, inclines, levels, etc).

    PS - I absolutely agree with the point Sgt. Hartman made though in response to the above - fatso's worried about burning up LBM. Why would their bodies burn up LBM with all that stored energy just sitting there waiting to be burned? However we are assuming a proper diet is being followed. If said person is starving him or herself, we may be having a different conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    Both > either by itself

    Not sure I agree with this
    You can't say this^ and follow it with this:
    PS - I absolutely agree with the point Sgt. Hartman made though in response to the above - fatso's worried about burning up LBM. Why would their bodies burn up LBM with all that stored energy just sitting there waiting to be burned? However we are assuming a proper diet is being followed. If said person is starving him or herself, we may be having a different conversation.
    Speed, inclines etc is relevant to the user. 7mph run might be medium intensity for an athlete but high intensity for a regular guy.
    A walk is low intensity for someone who doesn't have any injuries and is not severely overweight.
    LI<60% hrm
    80>MI>60
    HI>80

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    I guess I shouldn't have made the blanket statement that HIIT>LIC cardio but in most cases it is, simply for the massive amount of calories burned, especially if EPOC is achieved.

    Example: I'm currently 198lbs at about 10%BF and this morning for cardio I did a 5 minute warm up followed by 1min at 4mph and 1min at 12mph for a total of 40 min or 20 sets/intervals. It was fukking excruciating. The treadmill said I burned almost 900 cal but I don't believe that b/c I'm currently in great CV condition, so let's say I burned 400cal during cardio and 300cal post cardio before I ate my next meal 2 hrs later - a total of 700cal. I would have to do LIC cardio (ie. walking on the treadmill) for literally hours in order to burn that same amount of calories. I'm not saying that I could not have achieved the same end result by lowering my calories for the day and doing LIC cardio but IMO, for me, I maintain LBM and burn through BF more efficiently when I keep my calories relatively high and use cardio to create a deficit. 40min of cardio vs 2+hrs of cardio is no contest to me.

    The point is, most people just need to stop making excuses and find a way to burn more calories, which is why I said HIIT>LIC.

    Edit: I did not do that cardio WO fasted, before anybody freaks out and tells me how much LBM I burned through. I ate 2 whole eggs, 1 cup of whites, 1 cup of oats, and a large handful of grapes before doing this cardio session.
    Last edited by Sgt. Hartman; 09-17-2011 at 05:34 PM.

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    Good point Twist, I should have asked for BPM/HR percentages.

    Sgt - now we're getting back into the never ending debate about cardio - LIC vs. HIC. HIC burns more overall calories, no doubt, and by default, likely more bodyfat. But does LIC cardio burn a greater percentage of bodyfat? Many say that is the case.

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    I do believe that LIC burns a higher % of fat but does that really matter when its burning so few total calories? LIC does burn a higher fat% but HIIT burns so many more total calories that the net fat calories burned are not comparable to the total burned from intense cardio. I agree with what Twist said in that unless you're already at a very low BF% or have just made a LBM gain that was very hard earned, intense cardio is the way to go. But, IMO, HIIT or intense cardio should not be done ED, which is where AM fasted cardio comes in.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have made the blanket statement that HIIT>LIC cardio but in most cases it is, simply for the massive amount of calories burned, especially if EPOC is achieved.

    Example: I'm currently 198lbs at about 10%BF and this morning for cardio I did a 5 minute warm up followed by 1min at 4mph and 1min at 12mph for a total of 40 min or 20 sets/intervals. It was fukking excruciating. The treadmill said I burned almost 900 cal but I don't believe that b/c I'm currently in great CV condition, so let's say I burned 400cal during cardio and 300cal post cardio before I ate my next meal 2 hrs later - a total of 700cal. I would have to do LIC cardio (ie. walking on the treadmill) for literally hours in order to burn that same amount of calories. I'm not saying that I could not have achieved the same end result by lowering my calories for the day and doing LIC cardio but IMO, for me, I maintain LBM and burn through BF more efficiently when I keep my calories relatively high and use cardio to create a deficit. 40min of cardio vs 2+hrs of cardio is no contest to me.

    The point is, most people just need to stop making excuses and find a way to burn more calories, which is why I said HIIT>LIC.

    Edit: I did not do that cardio WO fasted, before anybody freaks out and tells me how much LBM I burned through. I ate 2 whole eggs, 1 cup of whites, 1 cup of oats, and a large handful of grapes before doing this cardio session.
    Your calorie expenditure doesn't decrease as you get in better cardio shape. What changes is the energy source you are burning from. If you are in great CV shape you will burn more fat cals when doing higher intensity.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    Good point Twist, I should have asked for BPM/HR percentages.

    Sgt - now we're getting back into the never ending debate about cardio - LIC vs. HIC. HIC burns more overall calories, no doubt, and by default, likely more bodyfat. But does LIC cardio burn a greater percentage of bodyfat? Many say that is the case.
    LIC burns a higher % of fat.

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