Dieting To Complete Transformation!!

**Papiriqui** · 12-04-2011, 12:52 AM

You guys go ahead, this is all a learning thread and everyone has their opinion regarding the same issues whether is cardio, diet, suplements, etc i respect them all equally, i just go with i believe is the best for me or whatever has or i think will work for me. So no offense taken. Both of you have been supportive, have great advices and opinions, they are certainly appreciated here

**--->>405<<---** · 12-04-2011, 07:14 AM

this is pretty good here pap

i tell u what im wondering (and let me say theres no way in hell id even consider not doing cardio) but according to my elliptical machine i burn approx 16 cals/minute for 45 mins = 720cals burned.. i do this 5-6 days/week which equals 3600-4320 cals/week roughly.. what im wondering is how many lbs of lbm i would have to increase from where im at to duplicate these 3500-4000cals and would i be able to continually increase that amt of lbm at a pace that would rival the xtra 3600-4320cals/week im burning due to my cardio? i wouldnt think so and even if i could if i continued to do the cardio it would just be more cals burned per week on top of that burned by accumulation of lbm...

**tbody66** · 12-04-2011, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

this is pretty good here pap

i tell u what im wondering (and let me say theres no way in hell id even consider not doing cardio) but according to my elliptical machine i burn approx 16 cals/minute for 45 mins = 720cals burned.. i do this 5-6 days/week which equals 3600-4320 cals/week roughly.. what im wondering is how many lbs of lbm i would have to increase from where im at to duplicate these 3500-4000cals and would i be able to continually increase that amt of lbm at a pace that would rival the xtra 3600-4320cals/week im burning due to my cardio? i wouldnt think so and even if i could if i continued to do the cardio it would just be more cals burned per week on top of that burned by accumulation of lbm...

I believe that is way over-simplification. Obviously we all wish we could just add lean body-mass to burn more calories and keep our bodyfat low. Muscle has a metabolic rate of approx. 15 cals per day at rest, but obviously if you are active you would burn even more. I have read anywhere from 6 - 37 cals mentioned in recent articles. I have even read articles that argue that gaining muscle is not a significant why to burn calories to burn fat. Calorie restriction and cardio have reportedly produced better results. I have always been of the opinion that if you were to change only one thing (diet/cardio/lift) to make a difference in your body composition, but you were to do it absolutely correctly that weight lifting makes the most dramatic short and long term difference in your appearance and your health. Diet would be the second most impactful and cardio last, again, this is just in my opinion. I absolutely believe that having all three dialed in makes the absolute most impact the quickest.

I am even going to be performing cardio myself to test the theory over the next few months, along with a strong lifting program and strict diet.

Both of you boys are making great progress and I wouldn't suggest you stop what is working for you at all!

**Sgt. Hartman** · 12-04-2011, 08:59 AM

Other than some stronger than necessary language and overtly personal attacks towards my personage

It was not meant in any way as a personal attack on you - rather an attack on the whole anti-cardio opinion.

I personally know people who have substantially more muscle than I do with single digit bodyfat that do even less cardio than I do

My point was not that it is impossible to become lean w/o cardio but rather that there are people who have massive amount of LBM that do cardio on a regular basis and that cardio does not equal LBM loss in any way. There are some people who can become very lean or maintain a fairly low BF% with little or no cardio. More power to them, but my point was large amounts of LBM and cardio are not mutually exclusive.

I wouldn't think I lack self discipline. I respect your opinion and most all of your posts, I am hurt by the weak minded reference and don't know (other than our disagreement over this topic) what would earn me this ire in your eyes. Please accept my apologies for presenting my opinion in an incomplete manner or in a way that seemed as if I believed it to be the only viewpoint with any validity.

I wasn't saying that you are weak minded, although when I re-read my post it did come across that way. I was making a reference to the fact that IMO weight training is the easy and fun part in all of this. Sticking to a strict diet and cardio program is extremely difficult and requires a lot mental discipline and fortitude. Anyone can go to the gym and lift heavy weights 5 days a week, that's fun and rewarding. But doing cardio 6 days a week while eating a calorie restricted diet requires a great deal of dedication and a mental edge that TBH some people just don't have.

The reason your post irritated me so much is b/c when I see you post these anti-cardio ideas it seems as though the point in posting them is not necessarily to help the OP but rather to persuade people to agree with the whole anti-cardio opinion. It seems that you're just trying to make a point and convince others of the validity of these ideas. Hopefully I'm wrong as I know that you have helped and continue to try to help many people on this board but that's the feeling I got from reading your post. Pap is having great success from his diet and cardio program and it is so easy to start doubting what you are doing, especially when it is so difficult to keep up consistently, the last thing he needs is hear that his efforts are counter-productive. He's a smart guy though and obviously has formed his own opinions and knows what works for him to reach his goals.

End of hijack - if you want to talk about it more just PM me and we'll get this thread back on track.

**baseline_9** · 12-04-2011, 09:38 AM

TB, are you trying to argue that increasing LBM to reduce bodyfat percentage (as total weight increases while Fst weight remains the same) is a more effective way of getting leaner than defecate calories and cardio?

I cant work out your point..... Kind of confused

**SlimmerMe** · 12-04-2011, 09:49 AM

I want to chime in here for a sec since Papi suggested he was up for discussion.

Cardio: from what all I have read here it seems that to lose muscle you would have to do an extreme amount of high intensity cardio over a long period of time.

On on a side note: Ss far as lifting being the fun part? opposite for me. I can do cardio everyday and love it! And I swear by it to lose the BF. And for me to really take off the BF? 2x's a day in shorter sessions.
My .02

**Papiriqui** · 12-04-2011, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by SlimmerMe

I want to chime in here for a sec since Papi suggested he was up for discussion.

Cardio: from what all I have read here it seems that to lose muscle you would have to do an extreme amount of high intensity cardio over a long period of time.

On on a side note: Ss far as lifting being the fun part? opposite for me. I can do cardio everyday and love it! And I swear by it to lose the BF. And for me to really take off the BF? 2x's a day in shorter sessions.
My .02

I wish i could do cardio twice a day! Only have time to do it once in the afternoon. Now i have 2 weeks which i can and will take full advantage of it, im actually getting to the gym now to do some fasted cardio!

**Back In Black** · 12-04-2011, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

TB, are you trying to argue that increasing LBM to reduce bodyfat percentage (as total weight increases while Fst weight remains the same) is a more effective way of getting leaner than defecate calories and cardio?

I cant work out your point..... Kind of confused

Base, I love the way you spell deficit. PMP every time.

Pap, over time you will learn what works best for YOUR body. After you've cut 2-3 times you will become exceptionally aware of what macro split, what weights routine, what cardio (type, intensity and length) and times of day to eat/perform are right for you. You'll also know how your body reacts to single cheat meals per week as opposed to none for a month or even what a cheat weekend will do to you.

What you have been doing is a relatively basic approach that you are already adapting and changing slightly to suit your lifestyle and requirements. That is what you need to continue doing. Hijacks are all very well and good, but your results are there and, as Tbody says, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

To everybody - choose your cardio wisely. Do a discipline that you dislike least. Get fitter and better - set yourself challenges. Don't worry so much about it destroying muscle, it can actually help with your lifting regime. Even if you don't start to enjoy it you'll find it alot more bearable. It's good for your heart too, you know!

**Sgt. Hartman** · 12-04-2011, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by SteM

Base, I love the way you spell deficit. PMP every time.

Pap, over time you will learn what works best for YOUR body. After you've cut 2-3 times you will become exceptionally aware of what macro split, what weights routine, what cardio (type, intensity and length) and times of day to eat/perform are right for you. You'll also know how your body reacts to single cheat meals per week as opposed to none for a month or even what a cheat weekend will do to you.

What you have been doing is a relatively basic approach that you are already adapting and changing slightly to suit your lifestyle and requirements. That is what you need to continue doing. Hijacks are all very well and good, but your results are there and, as Tbody says, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

To everybody - choose your cardio wisely. Do a discipline that you dislike least. Get fitter and better - set yourself challenges. Don't worry so much about it destroying muscle, it can actually help with your lifting regime. Even if you don't start to enjoy it you'll find it alot more bearable. It's good for your heart too, you know!

LMFAO! Defecate - "to eliminate or expel waste material from the digestive tract via the anus".

**Papiriqui** · 12-04-2011, 11:51 AM

Thanks SteM !! That's why i ask a lot of questions and like hearing everyone's opinion, that way i can choose whatever i think will best serve me, sometimes doesnt work but this is all trial and error until you find what really works for you, like you said. Well put Master Yoda!!

Just finished my fastes cardio, went awesome, didnt take the BCAA's and i didnt feel a thing, (SteM what are the consequences if i dont take bcaa pre fastes) like i said i ramped the intensity on everything, it felt hard but i pushed through! Feeling good today

Happy Sunday everyone

**Back In Black** · 12-04-2011, 01:14 PM

Consequences of no BCAA's pre fasted cardio, especially when doing interval training, is that you will burn more energy from muscle than you would if you took them. Bottom line - TAKE THEM BEFORE YOUR FASTED CARDIO.

**tbody66** · 12-04-2011, 01:18 PM

Sgt. Hartman: I am coming around to a broader thought process on this, thanks for taking the time to respond, I do respect and appreciate you and your views.

Base: I think you have something here, the defacator's weight loss guide, curious as to what that meal plan would look like, hay and bark???

Stem: I love the way you put it, post #208 was a fantastic, non-biased, accurate assessment of our discussion, thank you for being level headed and articulating our issue with balance!

Slim: I love you for being you, but still love a girl with muscle tone not just simple lack of fat! Keep lifting!

Papi: Great thread, great progress, thanks for letting us in on all you are going through on the way to where you are going.

**gbrice75** · 12-04-2011, 01:47 PM

Wow... A lot has transpired... and I'm late to the party.

There's really nothing I can add that hasn't already been discussed. Most of you already know my thoughts re: cardio. I do cardio, lots of it. Upping my cardio game helped me catapult past a slump that I wallowed in for nearly a year. It rounds out any training routine IMHO.

**Papiriqui** · 12-04-2011, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by SteM

Consequences of no BCAA's pre fasted cardio, especially when doing interval training, is that you will burn more energy from muscle than you would if you took them. Bottom line - TAKE THEM BEFORE YOUR FASTED CARDIO.

HAHAHA you got it buddy!

**Papiriqui** · 12-04-2011, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by SteM

As you get fitter your resting heart rate drops. That makes it more difficult to get your heart rate as high as you used to. That, coupled with the fact you are lighter, makes you burn less cals. But you now have less weight to lose so really don't worry about the few cals difference.

BCAA's do taste like ass you're right. I add a little no added sugar fruit cordial and a splash of water to mine.

Your protein shake should already contain some BCAA's, check how much. I don't add any to a post workout shke, I don't see the need. You could always have another 10g post workout without the shake and then go straight to a real meal.

I just looked it up because i had never heard of this before, where could i get it?? Grocery store?

**Papiriqui** · 12-04-2011, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Wow... A lot has transpired... and I'm late to the party.

There's really nothing I can add that hasn't already been discussed. Most of you already know my thoughts re: cardio. I do cardio, lots of it. Upping my cardio game helped me catapult past a slump that I wallowed in for nearly a year. It rounds out any training routine IMHO.

Thanks for stopping by GB and yes i agree with you, cardio makes it all better not to mention is good for you.

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 04:18 AM

Well Happy Monday to everyone, just got to the gym to do whatever leg exercises i can and the rest will be cardio!

**Back In Black** · 12-05-2011, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Papiriqui;5823***

I just looked it up because i had never heard of this before, where could i get it?? Grocery store?

It's probably something else you have a different name for over there. Maybe you call it a concentrate? Bottled fruit juice you add water too to make a long drink. Or something else low cal to mask the taste.

**--->>405<<---** · 12-05-2011, 06:25 AM

hey pap as far as the bcaas go i use body mortar and it has a lemonish flavor and its not bad at all.. actually kind of good .. i mix 1 scoop in a bottle with about 12 oz of water..shake for 60 secs and chug... easy .. i would have thought the nausea would have been more associated with the caffeine than the bcaa..

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

hey pap as far as the bcaas go i use body mortar and it has a lemonish flavor and its not bad at all.. actually kind of good .. i mix 1 scoop in a bottle with about 12 oz of water..shake for 60 secs and chug... easy .. i would have thought the nausea would have been more associated with the caffeine than the bcaa..

Well apparently not because yesterday i took the caffeine/green tea and it was perfectly fine!

I have to look that up 405, where do you get that?? Regular grocery store??

SteM we do have juice concentrates but i dont believe is the same, i looked it up and it gave me how to make it. I'll try looking for both of what you guys recommended if not i'll add like 3oz of the most natural orange juice i can find and some water.

**--->>405<<---** · 12-05-2011, 08:10 AM

no i got it from a health food store here in savannah ga.. the guy who owns it used to be a competitive bodybuilder.. i got the body mortar for like 40bucks rite when i started and i take 1 scoop before fastd cardio and i bet i still have 2 or 3 weeks left ..so thats like 15$/month or so...check it out..they can prob mail it to u

**--->>405<<---** · 12-05-2011, 08:13 AM

sry this is the rite one.. u may have to call.. im not very internet smart

**--->>405<<---** · 12-05-2011, 08:36 AM

i sent u a PM PAP lemme know if u get it.. im not great with computers

**gbrice75** · 12-05-2011, 08:47 AM

- GAL -->

**--->>405<<---** · 12-05-2011, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Re: BCAA's - my go-to is Purple Wraath

grape or purple lemonade??

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

i sent u a PM PAP lemme know if u get it.. im not great with computers

I got it bud, thanks!

**gbrice75** · 12-05-2011, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

grape or purple lemonade??

Grape all the way. That lemonade flavor is nauseating IMO!

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Grape all the way. That lemonade flavor is nauseating IMO!

Im opening the laptop now to look into it, price wise i dont know, the bcaa i use from infinite labs is not cheap and the container is reaaaaaally small, so it might not be much of a damage.

**--->>405<<---** · 12-05-2011, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Grape all the way. That lemonade flavor is nauseating IMO!

good deal thx

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 09:48 AM

Yeah i can get it for $50.99 with 90 servings, not bad. The 1 i buy has 20 servin for 20.00 so is about the aame price. Purple wrath i'll take it just this 2 weeks and on weekends when i do fastes cardio, normally i dont so it will last me for quite sometime!

**SlimmerMe** · 12-05-2011, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by tbody66

Slim: I love you for being you, but still love a girl with muscle tone not just simple lack of fat! Keep lifting!

I am LIFTING! and lifting and lifting and appreciate reminding me to lift more Tbody~

Originally Posted by gbrice75

**tbody66** · 12-05-2011, 10:13 AM

Another great day, keep it up! Let us know how the leg/cardio goes.

**SlimmerMe** · 12-05-2011, 10:18 AM

and ps: we love you for being you too Tbody.......(I don't have an edit button otherwise I would have added this to my post above Papi)

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 10:20 AM

Well first day of leg/cardio. Did leg extension, seated leg curls, 3 calves macines including leg press, leg press, dont know the name but i did the machine for inside and outside of thigh. Cardio did 20 mins in bike HIIT of course. Some more cardio later in the afternoon!

Tomorrow will be the first day of fasted cardio in the am and also cardio in the pm. Should be a good week for the scale

**SlimmerMe** · 12-05-2011, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Papiriqui

Well first day of leg/cardio. Did leg extension, seated leg curls, 3 calves macines including leg press, leg press, dont know the name but i did the machine for inside and outside of thigh. Cardio did 20 mins in bike HIIT of course. Some more cardio later in the afternoon!

Tomorrow will be the first day of fasted cardio in the am and also cardio in the pm. Should be a good week for the scale

and watch the BF melt off......Glad to hear this plan Papi~

**tbody66** · 12-05-2011, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Papiriqui

Well first day of leg/cardio. Did leg extension, seated leg curls, 3 calves macines including leg press, leg press, dont know the name but i did the machine for inside and outside of thigh. Cardio did 20 mins in bike HIIT of course. Some more cardio later in the afternoon!

Tomorrow will be the first day of fasted cardio in the am and also cardio in the pm. Should be a good week for the scale

I haven't seen a pic of your calves, so don't know what you need there, but curious as to if you are doing 21's there ( toes in/toes out/toes straight ) ? Also the tempo for the calf exercises should be different. Those machines that you don't know the name of are probably pink they are called "For Girls Only"

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 10:27 AM

This is only for the next 2 weeks though, since i have 4 stitches in my right forearm i really cant lift anything, not even do cardio where i move my arm, stationary cardio ONLY!! So since i cant lift weights might as well do extra cardio!! I think i might be getting addicted to cardio lol. Body fat wise i really wont know except for mirror since i dont do fat caliper, i do bodpod every 8 weeks, so it'll be a while before i get my bf checked, although i cant wait to go to the bodpod

**Papiriqui** · 12-05-2011, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by tbody66

I haven't seen a pic of your calves, so don't know what you need there, but curious as to if you are doing 21's there ( toes in/toes out/toes straight ) ? Also the tempo for the calf exercises should be different. Those machines that you don't know the name of are probably pink they are called "For Girls Only"

HAHAHA yeah is kind of for girls only but it does work, specially the inside of the leg! Hey real men wear pink baby!! LMAO

No T i am not doing 21's, as matter of fact, first time i hear it. I do believe my calves need a major improvement, even though they are far greater than when i started doing legs, i dont know about 6-8 months ago i started doing legs consistenly, before that it was never!

Now i am a leg freak, my hams are definitely there, my glutes look waaaaay better, my quads as well, all with a bit of fat over it

The problem with pictures is i dont have anyone to take them for me!!

**tbody66** · 12-05-2011, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Papiriqui

HAHAHA yeah is kind of for girls only but it does work, specially the inside of the leg! Hey real men wear pink baby!! LMAO

No T i am not doing 21's, as matter of fact, first time i hear it. I do believe my calves need a major improvement, even though they are far greater than when i started doing legs, i dont know about 6-8 months ago i started doing legs consistenly, before that it was never!

Now i am a leg freak, my hams are definitely there, my glutes look waaaaay better, my quads as well, all with a bit of fat over it

The problem with pictures is i dont have anyone to take them for me!!

Hit your calves every other day and alternate how you perform the exercises. IE: mon: twenty-ones, you do this with heavy weight ( I use the leg press machine and just do toe presses) start with your toes in/heels out (I keep knees locked) and do seven reps, slow and steady with the weight coming into the shin for a brief pause and full stretch then toes away as far as you can with a brief pause at the top, again for seven full reps, then turn your toes out and your heels in and do the same thing for seven more reps then toes straight above the heels for the last seven You should be able to use 150 lbs to start with (depends on your equipment obviously) if they are too easy up the weight, do three sets of these. Wed: Lighten the weight up but stick with toe presses, on these you will keep the toes straight up and down five sets of 25 reps each, a little faster pace here but still with a pause at top and bottom. Alternate this every other day and watch your calves grow.

The next time you find another male using those leg machines you were talking about, ask him to take your picture, I'm sure he won't mind