**Discussion: Fat gain but no muscle gain**

[gbrice75]

I wanted to start a thread to discuss this very unwanted occurrence. When we work for gains, we want quality LBM with very little body fat. However, it's not always that easy for some people. Some seem to just add body fat, but no muscle. They're eating a relatively clean diet - so why would this happen? Another way to pose the question is - what mechanisms need to be in place in order to grow muscle? Off the top of my head:

> sufficient calories. We know we need to eat at a caloric surplus to grow muscle.

> sufficient stimulus. Your muscles need a reason to grow. You can eat at a surplus all day and night, with the cleanest foods ever, but if you're not stimulating your muscles to grow and creating an anabolic environment, you'll never grow muscle... and what do you think will happen with all of those additional calories?? Bingo!! They are stored as body fat!!

> hormone balance. Low testosterone levels will make muscle building a difficult and inefficient process. Elevated cortisol levels will speed up unwanted fat gain. I'm just scratching the surface here, but you get the idea.

> insulin sensitivity/resistance. People who are very sensitive to insulin tend to build muscle much more easily than those who aren't so sensitive. Those who are insulin resistant have a difficult time building muscle but seem to easily store body fat (I fit in this category).

I believe one or a combination of the above are the culprit for adding body fat but not getting the benefit of muscle mass increase. I know there is much more. Please use this thread to discuss and offer your own insight.

[tall76]

Stress level??
Sleep patterns?? First hand experience with this one after my son was born and my precious 8 hrs of sleep plus a 1 hr nap were taken from me!!! (it's worth it tho to see this lil man grow up)

Maybe even how specific foods affect each individual. I could be crazy but I swear when I'm getting my alotted carbs from sweet potato i hold less fat than when I'm using brown rice??

And being in a calorie surplus sometimes more is not better. For example 2000 calls over maintenance is insane

[--->>405<<---]

The concept of eating a caloric surplus is very foreign to me.. Ive never gotten past the cutting stage im looking forward to doing it though... And will be following this thread to try to learn... Could it be possible that macro percentages not being rite for the individual would be a contributing factor?

[tall76]

yes- I believe macro percentage has to be changed in bulk phase but I don't know if there is any magic breakdown that will work for everyone. Some people I know go way up on carbs, some way up on fats, some on everything. It depends on ur body type as well. I'm such an ecto the only way I gain is to go wayyy hi on the carbs.

@405- it's not easy!!! I've done 3 competitions and I have found that being on a really strict diet is easier for me than to have to crush food every 3 hrs when I haven't felt hungry and in weeks. Plus it is hard to eat a ton of cals if ur still eating clean foods- and I dissapoint myself if I don't get all the cals in each day but sometimes u just can't eat anymore

[--->>405<<---]

I hear ya tall! 3 contests is pretty good man i know u guys r on a whole other level.. I just wanna look good walking down the beach LOL.. eating has never been a prob for me but after being on 2200 cals/day for 3 months i believe it would be tuff to get it all down especially if u had to consume say 3500-4000cals .. Thats alot of chikn sweet pot oats and cott cheese i do look forward to getn to eat more carbs though.. I think i crave them the most.. Prob cuz iv only been getn 100G/day..

The idea of eatn alot of carbs is gonna be a hard one to get over cuzbi associate them with fat but i know in bulking carbs are key to gaining muscle.. Just not sure why that is?? Anyone?? I have a trndency to wanna pile in protein like its magic food ...

[tbody66]

GB I love you! However two days from Christmas starting this thread. Seriously! Maybe that's why your stress levels are crazy. Here it is Christmas Eve and big day with family and friends all planned out around different scenarios and situations involving food and now I have to see the "Let's talk about how you'll Gain more fat over the holidays you already fat loser! As if I couldn't heap enough guilt on you already" thread!

Now that I've made you feel bad, here's my take on it. All people on the planet are cyclical in three areas physical/emotional/spiritual, and all three of those "wheels" are spinning all of the time and we remain constantly fixed on a point of each wheel and the three wheels all turn at different speeds and are connected and affect the other areas. I'm hoping I'm painting this mental picture for you clearly(please let me know if it is just confusing) So on any given day we are at a high or a low or medium in any of the three areas, rarely are all three categories at their lowest or at their highest simultaneously and outside stressors can affect the speed at which they may turn. It's like somedays we all go to the gym and the weights all feel heavy and nothing seems to go right and we don't seem to make any progress. The same can be said for our emotional side where we just feel "blah" without there being any particular reason or sometimes we are doing everything right but just don't sense God's presence in our lives.

I said all of that to say this, the times in our lives when nothing seems to be going right in a particular area are the most important times to put the effort in in that specific area, because those are the dormant states where what we plant ends up producing the most results when are "wheel" comes back on the top side. It's always hardest to keep on when we aren't feeling or seeing any result from our efforts. Since I know this to be true I would conclude and contribute that some of what causes what you are talking about is just a natural "cycle" in our physical "wheel" and if you just keep on keeping on your efforts could, quite possibly, begin having the desired affect. Like just being consistent and breaking through a plateau. I'm not saying this if your diet and exercise programs aren't in check, but if you know what your doing makes sense and should work it could just be a matter of trudging ahead. Something else to consider is if you are "out of balance" in any of the other areas, believe it or not our attitudes, relationships and other events affect us physically. I guess to put it into context, and I'm sure you'll understant this, if your life isn't right in your household the stress can definitely take it's toll in every other area of your life. My lengthy .02.

[SlimmerMe]

Great thread Gbrice and love the above Tbody. Very well said and so true. BALANCE is a juggling act.

[cue_artist]

GB I really like your threads. Do u really think that a person really needs to be on a very huge caloric surplus when bulking? I have had great success bulking with a caloric intake of 2750 calories/day and incorprating some carb cycling with it. I truely feel that a person could gain a great amount of mass without that much calories provided that a person would keep the body in an anabolic environment 24 hours. I usually use test boosters , bcaa 's , multivitmans, and essential minerals.

[MR-FQ320]

what about the personal natural plateux that can only be broken with AAS ? (if you wish to keep on building raw muscle that is ), we all know there is a point in our genetics or DNA, where it will be impossible to build more muscle naturally, of course each person is different, but if this wasnt true then AAS wouldnt be such a big thing and a 'natural' would be in the running for a pro contest.

[tbody66]

GB I really like your threads. Do u really think that a person really needs to be on a very huge caloric surplus when bulking? I have had great success bulking with a caloric intake of 2750 calories/day and incorprating some carb cycling with it. I truely feel that a person could gain a great amount of mass without that much calories provided that a person would keep the body in an anabolic environment 24 hours. I usually use test boosters , bcaa 's , multivitmans, and essential minerals.

Of course this is the most ideal, but hardest to balance.

what about the personal natural plateux that can only be broken with AAS ? (if you wish to keep on building raw muscle that is ), we all know there is a point in our genetics or DNA, where it will be impossible to build more muscle naturally, of course each person is different, but if this wasnt true then AAS wouldnt be such a big thing and a 'natural' would be in the running for a pro contest.

Most people don't train hard enough with the balance of proper diet/cardio/weight training to ever reach this point. I believe that it probably doesn't occur in people until they are in their mid to late thirties and after 10 plus years of proper and progressive training.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Of course this is the most ideal, but hardest to balance.


Most people don't train hard enough with the balance of proper diet/cardio/weight training to ever reach this point. I believe that it probably doesn't occur in people until they are in their mid to late thirties and after 10 plus years of proper and progressive training.

I totally agree with this. The terms genetic potential and natural limit are way overused. I highly doubt any of us ever reach a point where it is impossible to gain new muscle tissue as long as diet, training, and hormone levels are all optimal. If all those things are in line then why would there ever be a point at which we couldn't gain another half pound of muscle, even if it takes 6 months to do it, that's still progress and not a "limit". I think you reach a point of diminishing returns, ie. your training and diet have to be 100% dialed in and you only gain a pound or 2 a year? It would be very hard to stay motivated under those circumstances. That's where exogenous hormones come in, better living through pharmacology.

This is gonna be a good thread and I have some thoughts I'd like to add, but guys, it's Christmas Eve! Hope everyone has a great Christmas and Happy New Year!

[gbrice75]

Stress level??
Sleep patterns?? First hand experience with this one after my son was born and my precious 8 hrs of sleep plus a 1 hr nap were taken from me!!! (it's worth it tho to see this lil man grow up)

Maybe even how specific foods affect each individual. I could be crazy but I swear when I'm getting my alotted carbs from sweet potato i hold less fat than when I'm using brown rice??

And being in a calorie surplus sometimes more is not better. For example 2000 calls over maintenance is insane

All great points, sleep being a major one of them. I know from first hand experience - I get 6 hours tops, on my best night. Most of the time that's broken sleep. Needless to say, I am being cheated somewhat.

Stress is another one. High stress = elevated cortisol. Nuff said.

Agreed about caloric surplus. Actually, it takes very little surplus to build muscle. The 'more is better' approach simply doesn't apply. More = fat is more like it.

The concept of eating a caloric surplus is very foreign to me.. Ive never gotten past the cutting stage im looking forward to doing it though... And will be following this thread to try to learn... Could it be possible that macro percentages not being rite for the individual would be a contributing factor?

To a degree, yes. For instance, fat being too high (other than keto) would be a major one for me. I don't like fats being more than 20% of total calories, and prefer to keep it closer to 15%. Remember that of the 3 macros, fat is most likely to be stored as body fat.

But for the most part, macro manipulation plays a small part at best, IMO.

The idea of eatn alot of carbs is gonna be a hard one to get over cuzbi associate them with fat but i know in bulking carbs are key to gaining muscle.. Just not sure why that is?? Anyone?? I have a trndency to wanna pile in protein like its magic food ...

Remember that protein is used to build muscle, i.e. it is the building block. It needs something to do the work though, and that's where carbs come in. They cause insulin to be released, and insulin shuttles nutrients into cells. Think of building a house - protein as the raw materials, carbs as the workers that use the materials to build.

GB I really like your threads. Do u really think that a person really needs to be on a very huge caloric surplus when bulking? I have had great success bulking with a caloric intake of 2750 calories/day and incorprating some carb cycling with it. I truely feel that a person could gain a great amount of mass without that much calories provided that a person would keep the body in an anabolic environment 24 hours. I usually use test boosters , bcaa 's , multivitmans, and essential minerals.

Definitely not! As stated above, it really doesn't take much of a surplus to build muscle. Your body will use what it needs, and that's it. The rest is waste/stored as bodyfat.

[tbody66]

Merry Christmas all, may you have the most blessed ending to your year on the way to an even more blessed 2012!

[GirlyGymRat]

Gbrice. What does a person do who has to take meds with 20 g of fat 3 times a day for 60 g of fat daily? Any thoughts on what a person in this situation might do? Would you suggest they make 20g of fat as a meal? Severly limit carbs?

[tbody66]

I would think a low-carb diet would be a sensible approach to a person in this situation. Have they tried that before?

[GirlyGymRat]

I would think a low-carb diet would be a sensible approach to a person in this situation. Have they tried that before?

No. This is recent change for person.

[--->>405<<---]

Gbrice. What does a person do who has to take meds with 20 g of fat 3 times a day for 60 g of fat daily? Any thoughts on what a person in this situation might do? Would you suggest they make 20g of fat as a meal? Severly limit carbs?

depending on their TDEE and BMR u could figure out how far 60g fat/day is over their daily need.. for example with my diet i eat 55g fat everyday.. what i would do with that is just eat 3 meals/day having the 20g fat split equally between my 3 meals and carbs geared around workout.. if u get their weight and bf u could figure out how damaging or not it would be... for me doing it like that i would just reduce one of the other 2 macros to compensate for the extra 5g fat im eating which is 45 cals or 11g pro/carb...

[GirlyGymRat]

depending on their TDEE and BMR u could figure out how far 60g fat/day is over their daily need.. for example with my diet i eat 55g fat everyday.. what i would do with that is just eat 3 meals/day having the 20g fat split equally between my 3 meals and carbs geared around workout.. if u get their weight and bf u could figure out how damaging or not it would be... for me doing it like that i would just reduce one of the other 2 macros to compensate for the extra 5g fat im eating which is 45 cals or 11g pro/carb...

looks like 60 g is twice as much of daily need. i think tbody's recommendation to limit carbs is an option. I don't think we would recommend limiting protein.

[GirlyGymRat]

depending on their TDEE and BMR u could figure out how far 60g fat/day is over their daily need.. for example with my diet i eat 55g fat everyday.. what i would do with that is just eat 3 meals/day having the 20g fat split equally between my 3 meals and carbs geared around workout.. if u get their weight and bf u could figure out how damaging or not it would be... for me doing it like that i would just reduce one of the other 2 macros to compensate for the extra 5g fat im eating which is 45 cals or 11g pro/carb...

i also like your suggestion to eat the fat meal times...and carbs for pre workout. thx!!!