New Concept? - Carb Cycle Paired with IF???????

[slfmade]

So I've recently been thinking a lot about whether to run and "IF" diet for my cut or a "carb cycle". I started to wonder if the 2 could be combined for a synergistic (sp?) type of effect.

Though I'm certain I haven't invented the concept; I haven't ever heard of it being done before so I thought I might get your thoughts. It's very possible the reason nobody has ever posted this kind of diet before is because it's retarded and wouldn't work, so this is a shot in the dark but I thought I would get your thoughts.

I haven't decided on my workout yet (Will more than likely be HIT) so this is still very rough. Every workout (except leg day) will end with 20min HIIT, and nonlift/cardio days will be 1 hour fasted LIC. My goal would be to lose 15lbs of BF in 10 weeks and preserve as much LBM as possible. There will be no AAS - ONLY Clen/Keto ran straight for 10 weeks. This would put me at about 170lbs, 8-9% BF given that no LBM is lost.

The Diet will be as descibed below but in "IF" Style. All food will be split into 3 meals during an 8 hours feeding window followed by an 16 hour fast. Schedule as follows:

1:30 p.m. Meal 1
6:30 P.m. Meal 2 (Preworkout)
7:30 -8:30 Workout
9:00 p.m. Meal 3
**9:30 p.m. - 1:30 p.m. = FAST**

The Majority of all carbs will be consumed pre and post workout!

Mon - High Carb (Leg Day) **At TDEE - 2500Calories F-47g, C-254g, P-266g Split (17,40,43)**

Tues - Cardio Only (Low-Carb) **700 Below TDEE - 1800 Calories F-64g, C-50g, P-256g Split (32,11,57)**

Wed - Lift (Mod-Carb) **700 Below TDEE - 1800 Calories F-34g, C-152g, P-220g Split (17,34,49)**

Thurs - Cardio Only (Low-Carb) **700 Below TDEE - 1800 Calories F-64g, C-50g, P-256g Split (32,11,57)**

Fri - Lift (Mod-Carb) **700 Below TDEE - 1800 Calories F-34g, C-152g, P-220g Split (17,34,49)**

Sat - Cardio Only (Low-Carb) **700 Below TDEE - 1800 Calories F-64g, C-50g, P-256g Split (32,11,57)**

Sun - Rest Day (Low-Carb) **700 Below TDEE - 1800 Calories F-64g, C-50g, P-256g Split (32,11,57)**

If for any reason you need my stats and exact meals let me know, but this is more to serve as a "could this type of diet work" type of thread.

[baseline_9]

Yeh carb cycling while IF'ing makes sense... MB talks about this and it's how you should be doing it.

I have just started an IF diet with the same meal set up as you and will have 4 high carb days (350g) and 3 low carb days (as low as possible)....


As far as cardio I would not be doing it PWO while doing IF.... It is completely against the objectives of IF'ing...

Keep your cardio durrin the fasted state....


I'm interested to see how u get on as I'm just starting myself.

[--->>405<<---]

cool concept slf.. yeh i was confused about what to do with protein as well on carb cycle.. obviously weve both learned to keep it the same everyday curious as to ur low carb day whether theyre gonna be carbs from veggies only? 50g?

as far as cardio goes i love fasted cardio's effects on fatloss for sure i am curious as to what u would do if u do ur cardio in the am fasted on an if diet at say 5am and cant eat for 6 more hrs?? i drink bcaa's prior to all my fasted cardio but i also eat protein and carbs rite after.. would another bcaa drink suffice to preserve LBM for 6hrs til ur first meal??

base im not questioning ur knowledge on the subject im asking the question in hope of acquiring more knowledge for myself

[baseline_9]

I believe that doing some form of high intensity cardio in the morning (assuming your fast ends mid afternoon) will be most beneficial....

Increasing metabolism and burning calories durring the fast is the key to burning fat with IF... In my opinion

[FireGuy]

I would widen the splits on the carb cycle. They are too close IMHO.The lows and moderates arent low enough to deplete and the highs are not enough to supercompensate. I would go 25 or even 0 on the lows 75-125 on the moderate and 300-350 on the highs.

[--->>405<<---]

u wouldnt be concerned with catabolism between am fasted at say 05:00 and first meal at 13:00 ??

[baseline_9]

u wouldnt be concerned with catabolism between am fasted at say 05:00 and first meal at 13:00 ??

No, since you will be taking plenty of BCAA's durring that period anyway

This is just my opinion but I think most people are a bit too scared of the catabolic devil that will eat your muscle as soon as you even move if your fasted... My views have changed and after reading martins material....

[--->>405<<---]

No, since you will be taking plenty of BCAA's durring that period anyway

This is just my opinion but I think most people are a bit too scared of the catabolic devil that will eat your muscle as soon as you even move if your fasted... My views have changed and after reading martins material....

where can i get hold of this?

[baseline_9]

where can i get hold of this?

Leangains dot com

[slfmade]

Great info guys....I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. Would love to get some more thought from you guys on what the ideal setup would be. This took me a while to put together and get my meals laid out. I don't wanta be putting 20 different proposed plans together before getting it right. LOL

To answer you 405....Yes all my carbs on low carb days were coming from Broccoli and Asparagus with a bit bell peppers and onions mixed it. Complex carbs sources were oats and brown rice only on moderate and high carb days.

[baseline_9]

Great info guys....I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. Would love to get some more thought from you guys on what the ideal setup would be. This took me a while to put together and get my meals laid out. I don't wanta be putting 20 different proposed plans together before getting it right. LOL

To answer you 405....Yes all my carbs on low carb days were coming from Broccoli and Asparagus with a bit bell peppers and onions mixed it. Complex carbs sources were oats and brown rice only on moderate and high carb days.

I will post you my plan in a bit, see what you think

[slfmade]

Good deal - That would help a lot

[baseline_9]

20 mins of interval training (spin bike) Mon-Fri as soon as I wake (07.00)

I do 1 'True HIIT' workout each Saturday morning fasted which takes around 35 mins....



On Training days (Mon Tue Thu Fri) I will eat as follows.... On non training days I will remove all added carbs (oats and rice)

Training will be a moderate volume high intensity 4 day split... Intensity will increase over 6 week and then drop off.

10g BCAA's @ 07.00, 09.00, 12.00

02.00 – Meal 1

100g Chicken Breast 30.7, 0, 1.7
100g Brown Basmati Rice 9.6, 67.7, 2.7
40.3, 67.7, 4.4

17.00 – Pre Workout Meal

200g Chicken Breast 61.4, 0, 3.4
100g Brown Basmati Rice 9.6, 67.7, 2.7
30g Blend Protein 23.3, 0.9, 1.3
50g Oats 5.5, 30.2, 4
99.8, 98.8, 11.4

21.00-22.00 – PWO Meal

30g Blend Protein 23.3, 0.9, 1.3
50g Oats 5.5, 30.2, 4
150g Lean Beef 43, 0, 5
200g Brown Basmati Rice 19.2, 135.4, 5.4
300g Cottage Cheese 27.6, 13.5, 1.8
100g Raspberries 1.2, 4.9, 0.3
119.8, 184.9, 17.8

259.9, 351.4, 33.6 – 2747.6

[slfmade]

So you're doing no moderate carbs days correct? Just High on lift and low on non-lift? Are you keeping those raspberries and cottage cheese on non lift? Would a casein shake but a good substitution for the cottage cheese? Obviously my macros will all be different from yours so I'll figure this all out. So that I don't have to do a bunch of math....do you know what your carb intake and total calories would be on your non-lift days?

[baseline_9]

So you're doing no moderate carbs days correct? Just High on lift and low on non-lift? Are you keeping those raspberries and cottage cheese on non lift? Would a casein shake but a good substitution for the cottage cheese? Obviously my macros will all be different from yours so I'll figure this all out. So that I don't have to do a bunch of math....do you know what your carb intake and total calories would be on your non-lift days?

Yeh im just going high and low... Gonna see how it works, keeps it simple at least and allows for a higher carb intake when you need it most.

I will aim to keep my carbs below 50g on non lifting days which will be no problem for me TBH.... I will have a bit of broccoli soup on off days which will increase my carbs slightly...

Id estimate that on low carb days the calories will be about 1400 below what they are above... I may increase my fats slightly on non training days...

[slfmade]

This is similiar to what I've been doing the last 2 weeks. Lift days I do 500 Over TDEE, Non-Lift are 500 Under TDEE, but I have no Low Carbs days. Lift days are 320g of Carbs and non-Lift are about 150g of carbs. Doing this I've gained 2 lbs in 2 weeks and lost a little bit of BodyFat (which reminds me...I need to update my log). This is however for lean gains. In 3 weeks I plan on starting this new plan for my cut.

How are you running the calories in comparison to your TDEE? I'm assuming to cut you would need to be at a calorie deficit which I'm certain you are on your low carb days, but how does your calories look in comparison to your TDEE on your lift days? Are they over or at TDEE?

[baseline_9]

This is similiar to what I've been doing the last 2 weeks. Lift days I do 500 Over TDEE, Non-Lift are 500 Under TDEE, but I have no Low Carbs days. Lift days are 320g of Carbs and non-Lift are about 150g of carbs. Doing this I've gained 2 lbs in 2 weeks and lost a little bit of BodyFat (which reminds me...I need to update my log). This is however for lean gains. In 3 weeks I plan on starting this new plan for my cut.

How are you running the calories in comparison to your TDEE? I'm assuming to cut you would need to be at a calorie deficit which I'm certain you are on your low carb days, but how does your calories look in comparison to your TDEE on your lift days? Are they over or at TDEE?

Im around about my maintenance calorie intake for the week.... Cardio will push me below... i will adjust the diet from here on out depending on body composition

[slfmade]

Im around about my maintenance calorie intake for the week.... Cardio will push me below... i will adjust the diet from here on out depending on body composition

Sounds Good. Assuming a person's macro split was good. What would be the lowest caloric deficit a person could do without losing LBM on this type of diet? Just asking because I've only got 10 weeks to drop 4-5% also assuming clen/keto was ran straight for 10 weeks. Sorry for 20 questions...just wanta make sure I get this as perfect as possible. I don't have a lot of time for trail and error with this cut.

[baseline_9]

Sounds Good. Assuming a person's macro split was good. What would be the lowest caloric deficit a person could do without losing LBM on this type of diet? Just asking because I've only got 10 weeks to drop 4-5% also assuming clen/keto was ran straight for 10 weeks. Sorry for 20 questions...just wanta make sure I get this as perfect as possible. I don't have a lot of time for trail and error with this cut.

I would keep a deficit to 500 below mtnce and increase this with cardio....

I think you could go lower for short periods of time but would be careful with big deficits over extended periods

[slfmade]

So would my plan work if I changed it to at TDEE on leg day and 500 cals below TDEE every other day while cycling between High and low carbs between Lift and Non-Lift sound like a decent plan?

[baseline_9]

So would my plan work if I changed it to at TDEE on leg day and 500 cals below TDEE every other day while cycling between High and low carbs between Lift and Non-Lift sound like a decent plan?

I think I get what you mean.... And TBH there is no right or wrong answer... we are talking about micromanaging something that is simple really...

Keep your carbs around your lifting, keep your weekly deficit around 3500-7000 cals (including cardio)

[slfmade]

Got it. Thanks

[baseline_9]

I want to go really low carb (20-50g)on non training days as I know I can drag myself though those days and be a bit hungry.... The benefit of this is that it allow me to go relatively high carb (350g) on training days which makes me feel great and will hopefully keep my training sessions intense.

Now all i need to do is stop myself from starting a cycle LOL

[baseline_9]

Got it. Thanks

Id like to see GB's input... Will drop him a PM

[slfmade]

Id like to see GB's input... Will drop him a PM

I linked this thread in on his "Ask GB Anything" thread, but I know he's been super busy lately. I would be interested to see his thoughts as well.

[RaginCajun]

i like where this thread is going. i have been doing something similar to this and really like it. i am curious to see how yall enjoy it. cheers!

[gbrice75]

Id like to see GB's input... Will drop him a PM

I linked this thread in on his "Ask GB Anything" thread, but I know he's been super busy lately. I would be interested to see his thoughts as well.

Thanks for valuing my input guys!

slf, you already know I like the idea from when we touched on it briefly a few days back... I haven't read the other responses above so if i'm being redundant, I apologize in advance!

Carb cycling and IF work very much via the same mechanism, i.e periods of depletion and periods of replenishment. With IF you're following a consistent pattern of X amount of hours of depletion/fat burn followed by X amount of hours of replenishment and potential growth. With a carb cycle, at least the way I like doing them, it's basically the same except the periods are longer. A few days around/a bit under maintenance with minimal carb intake, a few days of zero (starchy) carb intake well under maintenance, and a single day carb refeed a bit over maintenance.

Synergistically,I believe they could work very well together as a potent 1-2 punch. Bear in mind that carb cycling is more often geared towards reducing bodyfat (at least in my experience), while IF is more often geared towards making gains but keeping bodyfat very low. However, I have run IF (Leangains variety) as a cutting diet and still liked it a lot!

Any updates on this slf? Are you planning to run it soon?

[slfmade]

Any updates on this slf? Are you planning to run it soon?

I like to start my planning early. I still have 2 1/2 weeks left on my lean bulk. I'll be starting this after some more tweaking on either March 5th or 12th. I'm still trying to decide whether to take a week off between the bulk and the cut. I've been hitting it pretty hard since Nov 1st and contemplating whether it's time to take a rest week and take a break from the 5th to the 12th or if I want to get the most out of it and start March 5th. Either way my last week will have to end on May 14th.

If I start Mar 5th...it'll give me 10 weeks to cut, or if I start the 12th...9 weeks.

P.S. I'm still looking for someone to help me create a HIT routine or take on a remote trainer role for the "Get Slfmade shredded" charity! LOL Any takers?

[gbrice75]

I like to start my planning early. I still have 2 1/2 weeks left on my lean bulk. I'll be starting this after some more tweaking on either March 5th or 12th. I'm still trying to decide whether to take a week off between the bulk and the cut. I've been hitting it pretty hard since Nov 1st and contemplating whether it's time to take a rest week and take a break from the 5th to the 12th or if I want to get the most out of it and start March 5th. Either way my last week will have to end on May 14th.

If I start Mar 5th...it'll give me 10 weeks to cut, or if I start the 12th...9 weeks.

Given the relatively short time frame, i'd start right away. A week off sounds good now, but you might kick yourself down the road, especially if you're not happy with how you look after 9 weeks. True 1 more week won't be the make or break, but at least you'll be able to say you did everything you could.

P.S. I'm still looking for someone to help me create a HIT routine or take on a remote trainer role for the "Get Slfmade shredded" charity! LOL Any takers?

lol, I wish I could bro, I just don't have the time to make that commitment. Hell, check my log - I can't even commit to myself these days!!!

You should look into total body workouts a few times a week, with just a single working set (after warmups). You can include drop sets, negatives, static holds, rest/pause etc. - anything to increase the intensity and make that single set REALLY count. Or, have you ever heard of the doggcrapp training routine? Google 'doggcrapp' and click the first link that comes up.

[slfmade]

Given the relatively short time frame, i'd start right away. A week off sounds good now, but you might kick yourself down the road, especially if you're not happy with how you look after 9 weeks. True 1 more week won't be the make or break, but at least you'll be able to say you did everything you could.



lol, I wish I could bro, I just don't have the time to make that commitment. Hell, check my log - I can't even commit to myself these days!!!

You should look into total body workouts a few times a week, with just a single working set (after warmups). You can include drop sets, negatives, static holds, rest/pause etc. - anything to increase the intensity and make that single set REALLY count. Or, have you ever heard of the doggcrapp training routine? Google 'doggcrapp' and click the first link that comes up.

You're right about the week off. I'm sure I'll just jump straight into it. I'm a little burned out on full body workouts...The program Tbody has me on now is a full body style workout that mainly involves 1-2 movements per exercise with 3 sets and rep ranges 12-20. I feel like the movements at the beginning of the routine get a good workout, but smaller areas like the arms that are last in the routine get neglected.

TBH...I'm a bit confused in what you said. Seems like doing Full Body with the intensity that you've described (forced negatives, static pause, etc) would need a greater resting period than 48 hours (assuming I did the program as you said...a few days a week). I was under the impression that the higher intensity the program, the greater the rest periods should be. Did I misunderstand something somewhere?

I looked into Doggcrapp here a while back but didn't give it much thought as it seemed like everyone was praising HIT as the best mass building program. I'll look into it again.