Carbs when cutting, want to avoid keto as much as possible

[Savage12]

Hey guys decided to take 405's advice and cut since im at 14% bf. 5'7" , 165lbs as of now at about 2000 cals cutting. 250g protein, 150g carbs, 45g fat. Goal: 5-6% bf

I wondering if it's good to keep my carbs as is, or should I drop them more?

I know as my bf gets lower i will need to, but i tried keto once and hated it. Way too much muscle loss, and I seem to be losing bf with the carbs I have in place now without sacrificing workout intensity. Haven't done much cardio either which is a good sign.

Any vets out there with dieting opinions please chime in, anything to help my goal of 5-6%% BF is greatly appreciated.


>>>Side note: I know I could afford to more mass, I and I am going to aim for that once summer is over. I carry all of my bf around my mid section, never had visible abs and I want to change that. Arms and the rest of body are extremely lean ans vascular.

[jypoll]

if you keep them as high as is, your fat loss will take a little longer, BUT you will preserve more muscle. it all depends on how much muscle you are prepared to sacrifice.

[Back In Black]

Can I just say, those are the macro's I use to get to about 9% at 170lbs. So I reckon you are a little high. 220, 130 and 40 may be a better way.

[gbrice75]

if you keep them as high as is, your fat loss will take a little longer, BUT you will preserve more muscle. it all depends on how much muscle you are prepared to sacrifice.

There's no reason to believe any lean tissue will be wasted during his cutting efforts if he does it right, even with lowering carbs. At 14%, there's plenty of fat for his body to utilize before 'feeling' the need to dip into muscle.

Glucose > Glycogen > Fat > Lean Tissue is generally the 'pecking order' for our bodies' fuel usage, again, assuming mistakes aren't being made such as drawn out HIIT cardio sessions while fasted, etc.

[Savage12]

so what do you guys feel would be better macro ratios? Im still losing bf well right now so I dont see much need to speed it up. it's only been a week.

[--->>405<<---]

so what do you guys feel would be better macro ratios? Im still losing bf well right now so I dont see much need to speed it up. it's only been a week.

^^ good point.. If its working stay with it til it stops or slows.. Have a plan on the ready.. I had good success with

300g pro
100g carbs

At 2000 cals itd be a decent split IMO .. Once ur progress slows down.. When u get to 12% or less u may wanna consider cycling ur carbs.. Some do better on strait low carb or even moderate carbs..

The good thing about keepn ur carbs around 20% total cals is it creates an environment conducive to fat mobilization which will become an obstacle as u get leaner

[jpowell]

hey, i was always told if your still losing don't adjust. sorta like if it aint broke don't fix it.
imo i think you'd be good staying where your at, but monitor it closely. and make adjustments soon as your numbers stay the same.

[jypoll]

There's no reason to believe any lean tissue will be wasted during his cutting efforts if he does it right, even with lowering carbs. At 14%, there's plenty of fat for his body to utilize before 'feeling' the need to dip into muscle.

Glucose > Glycogen > Fat > Lean Tissue is generally the 'pecking order' for our bodies' fuel usage, again, assuming mistakes aren't being made such as drawn out HIIT cardio sessions while fasted, etc.

i dropped from 25-14 or so in 3 months with a few different dieting techniques, i was really good about what i ate but i was at a large defecit upto 30-35% at times and my big three each dropped about 25% for 1rm. I couldve done it slower and would have saved more but unless your cutting really slow your gonna lose atleast a little lean mass. at least imo

[Savage12]

Appreciate the quick feedback guys. 405, how long should I wait before I declare that ive slowed down or stalled fat loss? Week? two weeks? Right now things are moving along nicely so we'll see what happens

[Turkish Juicer]

There's no reason to believe any lean tissue will be wasted during his cutting efforts if he does it right, even with lowering carbs. At 14%, there's plenty of fat for his body to utilize before 'feeling' the need to dip into muscle.

Glucose > Glycogen > Fat > Lean Tissue is generally the 'pecking order' for our bodies' fuel usage, again, assuming mistakes aren't being made such as drawn out HIIT cardio sessions while fasted, etc.

Right on.

[--->>405<<---]

Appreciate the quick feedback guys. 405, how long should I wait before I declare that ive slowed down or stalled fat loss? Week? two weeks? Right now things are moving along nicely so we'll see what happens

im assuming u do weekly (or at least every 2 weeks) bodyfat% checks or use a tape? in case u rnt, and i have a bad memory so if i should know..sorry, u should find somewhere u can get it checkd or get urself some calipers.. at 14% id give it 2 weeks (3tops) and if nothing changes re-evaluate.. just be sure ur not going strictly by the scale.. it can be misleading.. calipers, tape, mirror, scale.. the more u use the better

[gbrice75]

i dropped from 25-14 or so in 3 months with a few different dieting techniques, i was really good about what i ate but i was at a large defecit upto 30-35% at times and my big three each dropped about 25% for 1rm. I couldve done it slower and would have saved more but unless your cutting really slow your gonna lose atleast a little lean mass. at least imo

I don't mean to hijack the OP's thread, so sorry in advance OP, but were you always in the 30-35% deficit range? Did you carb cycle? Did you refeed?

I'm not saying you did anything wrong, because I obviously don't know the details of your diet, but this is exactly what I mean about doing things right.

I dropped from ~15% to ~9% in roughly 3 months (granted, not as drastic a drop as you, but then again it's much easier to drop from 25 to 14 than it is from 15-9), had absolutely no strength loss - in fact, I made strength gains in most lifts, and could not detect any muscle loss whatsoever.

Trust me, bodyfat can be cut with very little to no muscle loss at all. Losing muscle becomes much more of an issue when you're looking to drop down into single digits, simply because there just isn't much fat there to be utilized, and what is there is the 'stubborn' fat that your body will desperately fight to hold on to.

[Savage12]

Okay good. ya i dont use the scale much, the mirror is huge for me. after all its what people see


also guys ive been feeling a little flat, is this common whe you drop your carbs? just something i have to push through until a lower bf makes me look bigger?

[gbrice75]

also guys ive been feeling a little flat, is this common whe you drop your carbs? just something i have to push through until a lower bf makes me look bigger?

Definitely. Low carbs generally leads to depleted glycogen stores. Glycogen is nothing more than glucose + water molecules which gets stored in muscle cells and the liver. Water being the key here. More water = fuller looking muscles. A carb refeed will work wonders for you if you're looking flat.

[Savage12]

thanks gbrice, so the flatness doesnt mean muscle loss correct? i dont mind being a little flat so long as i dont lose muscle. guess ita just something you must go through. ill wait until i get down to 10% to do a refeed unless i should before then

[--->>405<<---]

thanks gbrice, so the flatness doesnt mean muscle loss correct? i dont mind being a little flat so long as i dont lose muscle. guess ita just something you must go through. ill wait until i get down to 10% to do a refeed unless i should before then

flatness doesnt mean muscle loss necessarily no.. espec cuz ur on low carbs.. carbs keep ur muscles full of glycogen which is an energy source they use to do stuff like lift weight i think for every 1g glycogen ur muscles hold 3-4g water.. basically when u run a low carb diet ur body uses up the glycogen in ur muscles (along with the water) and then is forced to start burning fat for fuel.. this is why low carb diets work.. u want to refeed fairly often.. depending how low ur carbs are.. when i ran at 100g carbs i did a refeed every 14days @250-300g carbs for that one day only.. be sure to keep ur fats low on that day as well..

do not attempt to wait til u get to 10% to do a refeed.. (just felt i needed to re-iterate)

[Savage12]

appreciate the help gbrice and 405, very informative posts.

its only been a week so ill keep my carbs around 150g/ed for another week then do a refeed and possibly drop to 100g the following week

im just trying to be patient and not rush things since its a few months before summer.

[--->>405<<---]

at 150g u may not need a refeed..

[Savage12]

Alright, well ill just have to wait and see where my body is in a few weeks and go from there.

ill make sure to refer to this thread when i hit sticking points. if you have any more tips my ears are open and ready to soak in the info

[Savage12]

Apologize for the double post, but I had some questions for gbrice and 405. How do you feel about carb cycling? I've been reading through Ronnie's Slingshot carb cycling and wondered if you guys prefer a certain method.

[--->>405<<---]

carb cycling is what im doing now.. at 14% u could continue on low carb or cycle ur carbs really.. its just a little more complicated..havent read ronnies slingshot method..

im doing a 7day carb cycle..

3moderate (@150g)
3low (@50g veggie carbs only)
1high (@300g)
repeat.. (these were the carb numbers i ran with my weight and bf.. urs may be a little difft but follow the same pattern)

is a pretty good method.. u may wanna save this for when u get a little leaner:

1. to give u time to research and learn about it
2. give urself time to build workouts that make sense with each day
3. as a next step when u hit a plateua

if ur losing bf now with low carbs i wouldnt change it until ur progress slows or stops..

[Savage12]

Appreciate the help 405. I'll wait till I get a little bit lower in bodyfat to try carb cycling as you suggested.

BUT, I am going to incorporate 2x/week refeeds on my squat and deadlift days. And then low carb (100g/ed) the rest of the week.

Once I hit 10-12% Ill start to carb cycle.

[--->>405<<---]

Appreciate the help 405. I'll wait till I get a little bit lower in bodyfat to try carb cycling as you suggested.

BUT, I am going to incorporate 2x/week refeeds on my squat and deadlift days. And then low carb (100g/ed) the rest of the week.

Once I hit 10-12% Ill start to carb cycle.

2x per week is prob unnecessary.. once per week may even be unnecessary depending how many carbs u eat the rest of the week per day.. at 100g per day u could go 14days .. i do understand the logic behind elevating ur carbs on heavy lift days to fuel ur workout and recovery.. i would suggest putting the xtra carbs in pre and post workout meals.. on 2000cals per day cut i wouldnt go over 150g carbs on those 2 days.. i would try to limit it to one..

personally i do legs 4x per week now and 2 of those days have zero starchy carbs.. IMO u would be fine at 100g...

[Savage12]

Man you've been a huge help 405! Ill keep the 150g day to just my deadlift day since they wipe me out more than squats do. Looking ripped in your avi bro good job!

[--->>405<<---]

glad to help

[Savage12]

Hey 405, had another question. How would macro split like say decreasing protein to 40% upping fat to 40% and keeping carbs at 20% work? Im more at 60/20/20 i think its too much protein.

I think I may need more fat my lifts are suffering a little bit. What do you think?

I am making good progress so i dont want to screw with it, but i hate the strength drop and endurance issue

[--->>405<<---]

Typically 60/20/20 will be more protein than u really need.. But.. Calories have to come from somewhere and IMO when cutting at low cArbs protein kept high is ur best bet.. Unless u consider keto but i havent done it..

Ur loss of strength and/or energy is due to lack of carbs most likely.. For myself burning fat was more important than feeling or being strong in the gym.. If i were to choose between the 2 id prob add some more carbs in and not fat..

Everyone is difft.. It may take a couple weeks to adjust to lower carbs.. How many r u eating per day rite now?

Also keep in mind extra protein will help preserve LBM while cutting..

[Savage12]

Okay well i'll wait it out and see then. Right now im at 100g/ed.

It may have been the cardio I was doing now that I evaluate this last week. It was a little too intense for the amount of carbs and training I am doing. Today I kept it to just 60min of low intensity (walking) for a few miles.

I felt more fresh when done than when I was running. I'll stick with the macros I have and check back in soon.

[Savage12]

Just a little update, been about 2 weeks and ive seem to have stalled just a bit. 405, would you reccomend dropping carbs by lower than 100g/ed?

[--->>405<<---]

whats ur cals and macro split ur running? as well as ur weight and bf%?

[Savage12]

60/20/20 right now. 2000cals (300g protein, 100g carbs, 45g fat) bf is down to about 11-12% from 14%. Abs are coming through well

[--->>405<<---]

total weight?

[Savage12]

160.5lbs as of this morning. I was thinking possibly its a good idea for a carb up here on Friday during my leg day to boost metabolism but ill wait until then to decide since it might have been because I was up really late so today was "off"

[--->>405<<---]

4.5lbs in 12 days.. whatr u complaining about dude?????

[Savage12]

Lol not complaining man just feeling bloated is all.looking a tad puffy but like I said it was prolly my night out

[--->>405<<---]

if ur feeling bloated then tomorrow drink 3 gallons of water... thats 384oz... i drank 320 today and i dont feel bloated

uve droppd almost 5 lbs in less than 2 weeks.. id suggest chekn ur bf% every week on the same day at the same time.. screw the scale.. if ur 12% u should be over the scale by now.. once u stall bf wise we can look at getn u on a carb cycle..thats ur next step IMO..

[Savage12]

Ya ill try and drink more I've barely hit a gallon. I don't use the scale at all....I checked when you asked. The mirror is slooot much more accurate. Thanks again man uve been a huge help

[--->>405<<---]

no prob bro.. glad to do it

[Savage12]

405, I think I want to give carb cycling a try man. Looking at what you posted above of 3 low carb days (veggies).
Thinking something like this:

Monday: 200g
Tues: 100g
Wed: 100g
Thurs: 100g
Fri: 50g
Sat: 50g
Sun: 50g


What do you think?

[--->>405<<---]

I think the carb cycle is a good approach..

Has ur progress slowed yet from ur current diet?