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  1. #1
    fatluke_nofx is offline Associate Member
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    Hey 405: What is carb cycling

    Hey 405, ive done some reading about carb cycling but I still am not fully understanding, can you tell me some rough guidelines and what not. Maybe explain the jist of it and all--- if you have the time, I know the answers are out there for me to find for sure, but I head you talkin about it a lot so I bet you could explain it very well.

    Thanks man!

  2. #2
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    hey fatluke.. i suggest u do some more reading on ur own to get a good understanding of the carb cycle.. depending on ur bf% it may or may not be necessary.. not that its not effective but if ur higher in bf u could get by with a healthy deficit and a strait low carb diet and save the cycle for when progress slows or halts...

    the way i do mine is i establish my moderate day first.. my tdee is @3000cals so i start my moderate day at 2200cals (a good deficit) and i keep carbs what i consider moderate @150g.. 150g carbs = 600cals.. i run my fat at 20%total cals which at 2200cals is 440cals and @49g fat.. so:

    600cals (carbs) + 440cals (fat) = 1040cals

    2200 - 1040 = 1160cals

    1160/4 = 290 (grams protein)

    therefore my split is:
    2200cals
    290g pro
    150g carbs
    49g fat

    moderate day is done

    from here i simply reduce carbs down to 50g and i eliminate all "starches" and replace with 50g from green veggies only.. i leave fat and protein the same which puts macros at:

    290g pro
    50g carbs
    49g fat

    this by default reduces caloric intake by 400cals which puts me @1800cals on low days

    i do similarly for high days but instead add another 150g of starchy carbs which will bring my total cals up by 600cals to 2800..

    and there u have my method for designing my carb cycle diet.. all thats left is picking the rite food choices..

    after this u then decide how many days of each type of day u want to have in ur cycle.. for myself ive found 3days low, 1 high day, 3days moderate to be a good cycle.. so on a mon thru sun schedule itd look like this:

    mon low
    tue low
    wed low
    thu high
    fri mod
    sat mod
    sun mod

    then i structure my workout schedule accordingly.. in my experience ive found total body workouts to be very effective..

    monday and tues i do depletion workouts.. 5-6 sets x 15 reps (trying to be under tension for 45secs per set). this is very difficult and i usually feel light headed and nausea by the time its all done as well as depleted.. i use this to deplete muscle glycogen.. it takes @10-12 sets per bodypart in this style of workout i have learnd to deplete muscle glycogen.. sometimes theres still some left even after the 2 workouts..

    wed and thurs are a good time for fasted cardio..

  3. #3
    fatluke_nofx is offline Associate Member
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    sorry for the late reply- been busy at work. Thanks for the info dude, ive seen you mention it so many times around here and I just wanted to learn what your talkin about- and yea, Im still too high in bf% to be carb cycllin I think. But the sooner I start to fully understand it, the more prepared Im going to be when I need to do it.

    Thanks 405

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  6. #6
    williams1337 is offline New Member
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    This may be a daft question but how long should you carb cycle for?

    I'm guessing the answer is, start when progress slows or stops (say around 11%) then start carb cycling. Would you just do it for 1 week to boost progress, or keep going until desired % reached!?

    My first post!
    Thanks :-)

  7. #7
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    welcome to the site will! good question.. difft diets require difft things.. from wat ive read a good guideline to go by is 8weeks with a 2week break then another 8weeks.. this will help "reset" (if i can use that word) ur metabolism to a pre-diet state and help maintain decent results.. following the same logic one would also benefit by not bulking to a bf% above 15%..

    IMO (and also an authors opinion i read a lot of stuff by) carb cycling should not be the first approach to cutting (depending on the amt of bodyfat needed to be lost).. someone with 20%bf could lose a fair amt of fat from a less complicated dieting style.. such as: low carb.. it is better to keep it as simple as u can..

    if ur a bodybuilder (not necess a pro but a novice who knows what hes doing) and uve just come off a bulk and say ur around 15%bf due to ur bulk then a carb cycle mite be in order.. but the std guy whos just been lazy and has some fat to lose would do better to start simpler and cycle carbs when other approaches stop working or slow..

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    williams1337 is offline New Member
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    Thank you for been so welcoming, and for your excellent response. Some very helpful information :-)

    Ill give your tips a try when I feel my current reduced calorie diet progress slows!

    Thanks again

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  10. #10
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  11. #11
    mockery's Avatar
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    how did you come to teh idea of using a 800 deficit? for your maintenance?

    im reading lots and setting up my own to start monday

    my tde is 2900, so - 20% my low day would be 2300 and feed day would be 3500( +20%)

    should i be deducting 800 from my tde as well and use that as my bench mark?


    my goal is body recomp lose some fat and maintain muscle as well continuing to grow

    also how does this diet (carb cycling) change if im running a 8 week cycle of gear??

    thanks
    Last edited by mockery; 06-30-2012 at 11:47 PM.

  12. #12
    mockery's Avatar
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    or if i used your math for being 5'10 91kgs

    -800

    maintenance is 2100

    150c
    47 fat
    270 protein

    low 1700

    52 carbs
    47 fat
    270 protein

    high 2700

    300 carbs
    48 fats
    270 protein


    the thing im confused about is how much to take off my tdee, u did 800, my body fat is about the same in your starting pictures. and im 3-4 kilos more heavy then you with higher bf% yet my calories are lower then yours.. this stuff is confusing!!

    looking forward to ur reply cheers

  13. #13
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    my tdee when i started was 3100cals. i ran 2150cals (950cal deficit).

    i run 2200 now cuz i gained some lbm along the way. i think 800deficit is decent to start. u could always go 900 if u wanted to.

    use katch/mcardle formula for calculating tdee NOT harris/benedict! u will need ur bf%...

    to answer ur first question if memory serves correctly my man SteM helped me establish my deficit in the beginning and it worked so i stuck with it... 500 below ur calculated tdee using the formulas we have available is not enuff IMO..

    theres a difference in calculated tdee and true tdee. also at 22%bf i was not in jeopardy of losing muscle... i think a 500cal deficit is a good start for someone who knows their tdee from experience and not a formula. but i think u could run more depending on many factors. if ur @22% and using these formulas 800cal deficit is fine

  14. #14
    mockery's Avatar
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    i used the mifflin-st jeor formula that is on this site to determine my tdee

    whats a simple way to calculate bf%? say until i can get my hands on some calipers.

    This deficit worries me since i have only back in the gym since march, but i reckon if i can re comp and start at a lower bf % i might be better off especially if i start cycling 1-2 a year. im also on trt at 150 /2, 2x a week

  15. #15
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mockery View Post
    i used the mifflin-st jeor formula that is on this site to determine my tdee

    whats a simple way to calculate bf%? say until i can get my hands on some calipers.

    This deficit worries me since i have only back in the gym since march, but i reckon if i can re comp and start at a lower bf % i might be better off especially if i start cycling 1-2 a year. im also on trt at 150 /2, 2x a week
    theres no simple way. make an appt if u have to. in the mean time harris benedict will work because ive chekd it a lot over time and it comes pretty close to katch/mcardle. it is an inaccurate way to go about it but until u get ur bf chekd itll do

    no need to worry about the deficit. i told u what to run. (800-900cals below tdee). run it and dont think about it. it seems thinking is ur problem.. not the deficit!

  16. #16
    mockery's Avatar
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    i am a 100% over thinker lol. sorry i have that mentality branded into me " u have to eat to grow "

    looking forward to this

    with calories this low, doing 16/8 fasting will be EASY

  17. #17
    mockery's Avatar
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    thanks for sharing your experience.

    so this katch/mcardle method.. your tdee goes up as your bf% drops? i never thought of this but makes so much sense muscle is harder to maintain then fat lol. im thick sometimes

  18. #18
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mockery View Post
    thanks for sharing your experience.

    so this katch/mcardle method.. your tdee goes up as your bf% drops? i never thought of this but makes so much sense muscle is harder to maintain then fat lol. im thick sometimes
    katch/mcardle feeds LBM only. ur tdee goes up as ur LBM goes up. bodyfat has no bearing in equation whatsoever.

  19. #19
    mockery's Avatar
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    so if everything is correct 22-23% bf. crap i thought i was leaner lol. 155 lbm .... i better hit the gym and bet bigger and stronger lol.

    so if i am right 2938 or 2900 tdee with moderately active 4 days a week in the gym push pull. and on my feet in a kitchen 10 hours a day straight no break.

    so my original guess was correct?

    -800

    maintenance is 2100

    150c
    47 fat
    270 protein

    low 1700

    52 carbs
    47 fat
    270 protein

    high 2700

    300 carbs
    48 fats
    270 protein

  20. #20
    mockery's Avatar
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    oh i was using http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/ to help calculate my katch/mcardle method.

  21. #21
    Armhand is offline Junior Member
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    405's just brilliant! 405 by reading ur post, i can picture myself dieting precisely

  22. #22
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armhand View Post
    405's just brilliant! 405 by reading ur post, i can picture myself dieting precisely
    youre too kind man.. thanx though.. just sharing info..

  23. #23
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    800-1000 calorie reduction a day seems like it could really slow down your metabolism. I don't know this to be true but I would speculate it could. Then when you refigure your calories to bulk you put on a lot of fat not knowing your metabolism crashed. (sorry, I tend to overthink and micro everything)

  24. #24
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bucknut24 View Post
    800-1000 calorie reduction a day seems like it could really slow down your metabolism. I don't know this to be true but I would speculate it could. Then when you refigure your calories to bulk you put on a lot of fat not knowing your metabolism crashed. (sorry, I tend to overthink and micro everything)
    depending how u ran ur diet and ur macro split ur metabolism could slow down. a good way to avoid this is to refeed every 7-14 days (depending). personally i ran 950cal deficit for @6 months with no probs. i did a refeed every 14days and ate 100g carbs per day otherwise.

    carb cycling is another effective way to avoid metabolic slowdown. 3days per week i effectively ran a 1400cal deficit with no probs. the tdee formulas we have are good guesstimates. they are just that. guesstimates. u have to establish ur true maintenance cals thru trial and error and experience.

    for myself i would not run 500cal deficit because i have done well with a greater deficit.. i cut for about 7months with significant deficit and have since adjusted diet to where im now eating between 2800-3500cals per day with minimal fat gain over a 2 month period...

    thinking is a good thing just dont over think!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    depending how u ran ur diet and ur macro split ur metabolism could slow down. a good way to avoid this is to refeed every 7-14 days (depending). personally i ran 950cal deficit for @6 months with no probs. i did a refeed every 14days and ate 100g carbs per day otherwise.

    carb cycling is another effective way to avoid metabolic slowdown. 3days per week i effectively ran a 1400cal deficit with no probs. the tdee formulas we have are good guesstimates. they are just that. guesstimates. u have to establish ur true maintenance cals thru trial and error and experience.

    for myself i would not run 500cal deficit because i have done well with a greater deficit.. i cut for about 7months with significant deficit and have since adjusted diet to where im now eating between 2800-3500cals per day with minimal fat gain over a 2 month period...

    thinking is a good thing just dont over think!
    Great Explanation! I posted the following on the HRT Forum as I'm secondary hypo and havn't received a response yet. You seem like the exact person who could help.


    I started doing the slingshot carb cycle diet yesterday. I have my maintenance figured at 2700 a day. I have my calories reduced to 2300 a day.

    3 days of carbs at 150grams, 1 day at 300, 2 days at 150, 1 day 300.

    Here is my macro setup.

    Pro 250 grams
    Cho 150
    Fat 78

    Higher Carb Day

    Pro 210
    Cho 300
    Fat 30

    Good? Bad? Awful?

    I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this or not so apologies if not, but the slingshot thread said clen is a great fat burner. Do I have to ask my doc for this? Other ways to get it? etc...

    Thanks

  26. #26
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    yeh im also on TRT and this will help u preserve LBM during a cut. so u have that as an advantage.

    for starters:

    1. stats (age, weight, height, bf%)
    2. goals
    3. workout sched (including cardio)
    4. running 150g carbs per day unless ur bulking i see no need for a refeed. id consider 150g moderate.
    5. if ur cutting i recommend a cycle more like the one i posted above. one of the purposes of cycling carbs can be deplete muscle glycogen. IMO this is ur best bet for a cut. 150g carbs per day will NOT get that done.
    6. i believe AR-R (banner top right above) is a good place to get clen as a research chemical.
    7. depending on stats will determine whether or not a fat burner could be used. IMO they dont do as much as people like to think..

  27. #27
    bucknut24's Avatar
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    Age: 39
    Weight: 215
    Height: 6'1
    BF%: 15.2

    Goals:
    1. Get core bodyfat to a minimum and get under 10%. Tired of having the midsection puffiness. I have back problems and a pretty bad anteriorly tilted pelvis so I'm working on that too which causes the belly to push forward.
    2. Gain lean mass to 215 and staying under 10%.
    3. I did Bill Starr's 5x5 intermediate for 2 months to build some strength. I switched to upper/lower split 4 days a week. First workout of the week is strength based low reps (5-6) while the second workout for the upper or lower is more hypertrophy based with higher reps (10-12). Cardio: I have been doing 20-30 minutes twice a week after upper body low intensity. Two times a week on my off days I am doing 60-90 minutes low intensity cardio fasted with 20mg of yohimbine to target alpha 2 receptor (stubborn fat).
    4. I am trying to cut currently.

  28. #28
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    at 215 15.2%bf ur tdee is @3340cals

    id suggest if u carb cycle to run ur moderate days at 2500

    350g pro
    150g carbs
    56g fat

    high day
    350g pro
    300g carbs
    56g fat

    low day
    350g pro
    50g carbs (veggie only)
    56g fat

    day1: low
    day2: low
    day3: low
    day4: high
    day5: moderate
    day6: moderate
    day7: moderate (total days "starchy" carbs completed by meal 4 if u have 6 meals this day)

    day1 doesnt have to be a monday..

    id do cardio 5-6x per week am fasted or pwo for 45mins.. u can throw in some HIIT a day or 2 in place of moderate. id shoot for around 135 BPM on moderate days..

    a good fatburning session for ur HIIT is:
    5min warmup
    10 mins HIIT
    5 min complete rest
    20-40min moderate (135BPM)
    5min cooldown

    done fasted..

    id suggest startn a thread and posting ur diet. u can get to 10% or less if u follow this style diet properly IMO.. (ive done it)

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  30. #30
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    Bump!!

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  32. #32
    mockery's Avatar
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    405 , carb cycling on the lean gains IF protocol, and not the 24hour IF should i still have a high day on the 1 day a week i don't train? or just treat as another veggie only day?>

    mod mod low mod mod low high

    mod mod low mod mod low low

  33. #33
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    im not very well versed in Leangains IF. i understand the concept of IF but have yet to venture forth into the territory. logic would lead me to believe regardless of how big ur window is for eating ur caloric requirements daily or weekly would remain the same. the purpose of a high carb day during a carb cycle is to replenish depleted muscle glycogen as well as help the body recover from the stress put on it during the dieting phase of the cycle. IMO i cant see how being on an IF diet would change the benefit of the high carb day. so to answer ur question IMO YES keep the high carb day

  34. #34
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    What do you use as a post workout meal on a low day? Whey protein with a broccoli smoothie? I usually like to have some dextrose after a workout, So on a low day I would go 2 scoop of whey with some dextrose(sugar). What is your intake on this?

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    mockery's Avatar
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    What do you use as a post workout meal on a low day? Whey protein with a broccoli smoothie? I usually like to have some dextrose after a workout, So on a low day I would go 2 scoop of whey with some dextrose(sugar). What is your intake on this?
    low days are suppose to be fibrous carbs only, if you are training on a low day, wich im confused about it must be part of your diet regime. are you doing keto?

  36. #36
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_66 View Post
    What do you use as a post workout meal on a low day? Whey protein with a broccoli smoothie? I usually like to have some dextrose after a workout, So on a low day I would go 2 scoop of whey with some dextrose(sugar). What is your intake on this?
    my take on it is sugar PWO defeats the purpose of the low day. ur trying to deplete muscle glycogen so that u can burn as much fat as possible. fruit or starch or sugar will slow this process down.. period..

    insulin will prevent u from being able to mobilize any fat into ur blood for possibly hours. while cutting u will mainly just be trying to hang on to LBM. even if i supported the proposition of insulin spike PWO (which i do NOT) how much growth do u expect to achieve while in significant caloric deficit simply by introducing a sugar/insulin spike PWO??? itll do more harm than good IMO..

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mockery View Post
    low days are suppose to be fibrous carbs only, if you are training on a low day, wich im confused about it must be part of your diet regime. are you doing keto?
    I was thinking of doing 3 low, 3 main, 1 high. My workout regiment right now to fit my schedule is Mon/Tue off Thu/Fri/ off off. I'm going to do my high day on Sun to replenish and recover. thu and fri might have to be low day for me and I'm going to have to workout. I've never done carb cycling, I need to be enlighten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    my take on it is sugar PWO defeats the purpose of the low day. ur trying to deplete muscle glycogen so that u can burn as much fat as possible. fruit or starch or sugar will slow this process down.. period..

    insulin will prevent u from being able to mobilize any fat into ur blood for possibly hours. while cutting u will mainly just be trying to hang on to LBM. even if i supported the proposition of insulin spike PWO (which i do NOT) how much growth do u expect to achieve while in significant caloric deficit simply by introducing a sugar/insulin spike PWO??? itll do more harm than good IMO..
    Thanks! makes sense. I'm slowly learning I appreciate it!@

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_66 View Post
    I was thinking of doing 3 low, 3 main, 1 high. My workout regiment right now to fit my schedule is Mon/Tue off Thu/Fri/ off off. I'm going to do my high day on Sun to replenish and recover. thu and fri might have to be low day for me and I'm going to have to workout. I've never done carb cycling, I need to be enlighten.
    im clueless for this dieting stuff but learning more every day

    im training same days you are but will be adding another day in each week so the days i train "on" will always shift. im going mod mod low mod mod low high

    my high day cause my schedual is not set will fall on my day off, undecided if its best on a complete rest day or a Resistance training day.

  40. #40
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    ^^ a single low day will never allow you to sufficiently deplete glycogen stores. Aside from creating a bigger caloric deficit (assuming you're not compensating for the lower carb macro by upping the protein and/or fat macros), it's pretty much pointless IMO.

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