Postworkout Shake Questions

**Wolv256** · 06-06-2012, 09:09 PM

I've always filled a protein shake in a shaker when I go to workout and sip on it between sets. It sounds like most of you wait until you're all done working out and then drink it. Do you think this makes a difference and which way is preferrable? If I should wait til I'm all done, what is the downside to drinking between sets? I know you don't need it instantly and have a decent sized window to recover. I know creatine breaks down in water and should be drunken quickly when mixed, but I don't take that with my postworkout drink, I take that at a different time.

Also, I've always just taken protein and sometimes glutamine and BCAA's as a postworkout drink. But, now I'm hearing about adding dextrose and maltodextrin to it. They're cheap and the science sounds legit, so I think I'll try adding them. Do you guys all agree they should be added? And does anyone have an opinion of dextrose/maltodextrin vs. waxy maize?

Also, would a protein/dextrose/maltodextrin mix be valuable after strenuous activity like playing 3 hours of basketball or is it just limited to weight training? The concept of "supplementing" a sugar sounds strange to me, but when you actually look at it, it makes sense.

Thanks,

**Sgt. Hartman** · 06-06-2012, 09:21 PM

Maltodextrin/dextrose/waxy maize are all a waste of time and money imo.

You'd be better off just hitting your macros for the day then worrying about what's in your post wo shake.

**bobjack** · 06-06-2012, 09:33 PM

your not gonna go catabolic while working out bro.. just drink it afterwards its actually recommended to drink it atleast 30 mins after workout to let your natural HGH hormones do some work.

a lot of sides to this, that's my opinion

most important thing is hitting your macros

**MuscleInk** · 06-06-2012, 09:51 PM

Interesting question! I used to drink protein shakes 3-4 times a day and cycled through various protein products. Then I started reading blogs by pro athletes (competitive body builders mostly) and talking to them in the gym about protein shakes. I've heard the same thing from more than a dozen serious competitors and they all say the same thing: there is NO repla***ent for proper nutrition. The best protein sources come from fish, chicken, pork, and beef and no powder in a can no matter who makes it can compare with or replace a solid diet.

Having said that, most of these guys agree that IF (emphasize that.....if, if, if) you need to drink a protein shake, the best time is during or no later than 30 minutes after a workout and shakes that spike your insulin the most (usually the ones with the sweetest artificial sweetener: maltodextrin) are best because the spike in insulin actually pushes more protein into your cells where it is needed and used most efficiently during or immediately after a workout. Most protein shakes consumed outside of this time frame (during or immediately after a workout) do little more than increase fat - which I'm guessing is not your objective! Lol

Most serious athletes don't drink the protein shakes and if they do, its during the times I suggested. Think about it....if these guys aren't putting a lot of this crap in their bodies (ya, they do get paid nicely to endorse it sometimes) and most of us are trying to look half as good as the serious competitors, why are we consuming it? Answer: good marketing! Lol

I still drink a protein shake during a workout (and one after sometimes if I'm hungry and can't get to REAL food right away) so I wont tell you it's wrong. I vary my use with waxy maize. If your protein shake has maltodextrin then adding waxy maize probably has marginal benefits at best.

IMO: stick to your BCAAS, drink a protein shake during or after a workout and maximize your nutritional demands around that.

One last thought....I get asked a lot about casein consumption before bed. My belief is again, if you eat enough calories in the right protein:fat:carb ratios, casein isn't going to do much to promote protein synthesis or ward off catabolism.

That's my two cents!

**laidstallion1992** · 06-06-2012, 09:58 PM

my favorite post workout is dark matter plenty carbs spikes insulin hard does have waxy maize creatine and other fun stuff but i'm not gonna say much more because ^^^that guy (muscleink) hit the nail on the head

**MuscleInk** · 06-06-2012, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by laidstallion1992

my favorite post workout is dark matter plenty carbs spikes insulin hard does have waxy maize creatine and other fun stuff but i'm not gonna say much more because ^^^that guy (muscleink) hit the nail on the head

Thanks bro. Much of my experience is trial and error: a lot of trying and much more error!! Lol

Now I just try to emulate what the big pros are doing. I'm a work in progress! Lol

**Bevsta123** · 06-06-2012, 10:32 PM

I use to take my PWO shake after my workouts. only thing is it use to make me feel sick and i wouldnt be able to have my next meal for the next few hrs so i changed it up, instead of a shake, i just have a propper meal after the workout then half a hr after my meal ill have a shake, i feel much better after workouts now and it feels like im making a bit more gains but thats just my personal opinion

**MuscleInk** · 06-06-2012, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Bevsta123

I use to take my PWO shake after my workouts. only thing is it use to make me feel sick and i wouldnt be able to have my next meal for the next few hrs so i changed it up, instead of a shake, i just have a propper meal after the workout then half a hr after my meal ill have a shake, i feel much better after workouts now and it feels like im making a bit more gains but thats just my personal opinion

Ya, I've had that happen too. A few times after a workout my appetite is flat but that can also be PWO stims too. That's why weight loss pills with stims work so well - they nuke your appetite. I've seen that with adderrall. Great PWO (but I'm not encouraging people to adopt this bad habit!) but you'll kill your calorie intake!

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-07-2012, 12:10 AM

Just go with grounded oats, whey and 5gr of creatine mono for your PWO shake. Adjust the amount of oats and whey in accordance with your daily macros. That's all you need, really.

**MuscleInk** · 06-07-2012, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

Just go with grounded oats, whey and 5gr of creatine mono for your PWO shake. Adjust the amount of oats and whey in accordance with your daily macros. That's all you need, really.

I love throwing oats in a shake. Sometimes I'll add olive oil for extra calories and good fat. Gives it a bit of a nutty taste for some reason.

**gbrice75** · 06-07-2012, 08:56 AM

IMO it really doesn't matter whether you have a shake intra-workout or PWO. Personally, I like it PWO.

Don't bother with dextrose/malto - I see no benefit to purposely consuming pure sugar. Go with a good complex carb such as oats and you'll be gtg.

**Wolv256** · 06-07-2012, 09:58 PM

Maltodextrin's only like $2.50/lb and Dextrose is only like $5.00/lb. They're not expensive (yes, slightly overpriced for sugar, but not a budget breaker by any means) and putting a scoop of something else into your shake isn't a big deal at all. I mean, they're basically food, not supplements. I'm just wondering if they are a good idea nutrition wise or not. Sounds like oats are slightly cheaper and probably similiar in effect, but I'm just wondering people's opinion of them.

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-08-2012, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Wolv256

Maltodextrin's only like $2.50/lb and Dextrose is only like $5.00/lb. They're not expensive (yes, slightly overpriced for sugar, but not a budget breaker by any means) and putting a scoop of something else into your shake isn't a big deal at all. I mean, they're basically food, not supplements. I'm just wondering if they are a good idea nutrition wise or not. Sounds like oats are slightly cheaper and probably similiar in effect, but I'm just wondering people's opinion of them.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Oats is a source of complex carb; whereas, dextrose and maltodextrin are nothing but bunch of sugar molecules attached to each other.

Oats do have a nutritional value as a matter of fact (vitamins, minerals, fiber, enzymes); whereas, bunch of sugar does NOT.

Oats is a healthy choice not only because of its nutritional value but also primarily because it is low GI, meaning your body will NOT experience a metabolic syndrome every and each time you eat oats as opposed to the massive insulin spike and hence the metabolic syndrome that your body experiences when you feed yourself with simple, processed sugars, which is as good as poison if you ask me.

**dooie** · 06-08-2012, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Wolv256

I've always filled a protein shake in a shaker when I go to workout and sip on it between sets. It sounds like most of you wait until you're all done working out and then drink it. Do you think this makes a difference and which way is preferrable? If I should wait til I'm all done, what is the downside to drinking between sets? I know you don't need it instantly and have a decent sized window to recover. I know creatine breaks down in water and should be drunken quickly when mixed, but I don't take that with my postworkout drink, I take that at a different time.

Also, I've always just taken protein and sometimes glutamine and BCAA's as a postworkout drink. But, now I'm hearing about adding dextrose and maltodextrin to it. They're cheap and the science sounds legit, so I think I'll try adding them. Do you guys all agree they should be added? And does anyone have an opinion of dextrose/maltodextrin vs. waxy maize?

Also, would a protein/dextrose/maltodextrin mix be valuable after strenuous activity like playing 3 hours of basketball or is it just limited to weight training? The concept of "supplementing" a sugar sounds strange to me, but when you actually look at it, it makes sense.

Thanks,

just a quick question, what is your thinking behind adding carbs to your PWO shake?, if you are playing 3 hours of basketball i would be drinking lots of water and a good carb drink with electrolytes in it! but if your just training at the gym, you wouldnt have depleted your glycogen stores anyway, even if you did, your not going to train that same muscle group within the next 8-24 hours anyway so your stores will be replinished through your diet!
also studies show that protein elevates insulin by itself, you dont even need carbs PWO, spiking insulin isnt what its all cracked up to be! and can be bad for you!

in saying all this
there is no negative to adding (complex)carbs PWO, as if you dont eat many carbs in your diet, its the best time to eat them (other than breakfast) but it all depends on your goals!

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-08-2012, 07:23 AM

^^^ It is true that a serving of whey concentrate alone causes insulin spike (by 27%, whey isolate and/or liquid AA should spike it even more).

One true advantage of CHO intake along with protein right after lifting and/or an intense cardio session that follows would be suppression of the major catabolic hormone, cortisol.

Ramussen studies have demonstrated this to be the case over the years, as those studies should be investigated by curious forum members.

**gbrice75** · 06-08-2012, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Oats is a source of complex carb; whereas, dextrose and maltodextrin are nothing but bunch of sugar molecules attached to each other.

Oats do have a nutritional value as a matter of fact (vitamins, minerals, fiber, enzymes); whereas, bunch of sugar does NOT.

Oats is a healthy choice not only because of its nutritional value but also primarily because it is low GI, meaning your body will NOT experience a metabolic syndrome every and each time you eat oats as opposed to the massive insulin spike and hence the metabolic syndrome that your body experiences when you feed yourself with simple, processed sugars, which is as good as poison if you ask me.

x2, amen.

**Wolv256** · 06-08-2012, 11:51 AM

Ok, so basically you want about 40-60g of protein and 80-100g of carbs in your PWO shake. That's a lot different then the simple 25g of protein that I was doing. I guess not one can agree whether the carbs should be complex (ground oats) or something sugary like dextrose/maltodextrin, so I'll have to try both and see which I prefer.

So that makes about 480-720 calories per shake as opposed to the 100 I was taking. So I assume you all then wait about 2 hours to eat your PPWO meal, since you've basically just eaten a meal within your shake? I've always tried to rush home and eat, but underthis scenario it seems like you'd wait a little bit to eat. Do you agree or do you eat your PPWO right away?

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-08-2012, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Wolv256

Ok, so basically you want about 40-60g of protein and 80-100g of carbs in your PWO shake. Those amounts solely depend on your nutritional needs, determined by body weight and goals. I never intake more than 25gr of whey and 50gr of CHO in my PWO shake because I know how to eat a meal, and I like eating whole meals throughout the day. That's a lot different then the simple 25g of protein that I was doing. I guess not one can agree whether the carbs should be complex (ground oats) or something sugary like dextrose/maltodextrin, so I'll have to try both and see which I prefer.As a matter of fact, there are only a few members on this board who would argue for the benefits(!) of consumption of simple sugars in general, which we generally tend to disagree with. It is an extremely unhealthy and even unnecessary practice from various standpoints.

So that makes about 480-720 calories per shake as opposed to the 100 I was taking. So I assume you all then wait about 2 hours to eat your PPWO meal, since you've basically just eaten a meal within your shake?Few people stuff their faces with so many calories from a PWO shake here, so you would have to find and ask them if they actually wait for 2 hours to eat PWO meal after their monster shake. I've always tried to rush home and eat, but under this scenario it seems like you'd wait a little bit to eat. Um, yeah, it will be pretty hard to eat an actual meal after drinking that shake. Do you agree or do you eat your PPWO right away? Depends on the phase. If you are cutting, meaning you will be creating a calorie deficit, your body will be able to burn more fat if the gap in between meals is considerably long, which equally goes for your PWO meal too; that is, if you don't drink a PWO shake and eat 2 hrs after your workout, your body will continue to mobilize and burn fat for those extra 2 hrs. This, on the other hand, would be a pretty bad idea for bulking.

Eat meals, not shakes.

**< <Samson> >** · 06-08-2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

Eat meals, not shakes.

This needs to be burned into everyone's head.

Shakes are damn near pure crap. I listened to the Ronnies and tried to consume mad amounts of whey and other weight gaining garbage, it did next to nothing. Just made me gassy as hell and bloated.

I got a ton of this crap for free and now I only drink one medium shake a day.

I consumed a ton before and gained near nothing wondering why. Your body is not stupid, it can't just use mega tons of this garbage.

Food over shakes any day.

For PWO, oats, yogurt and some powder. - the rest of the day is real food.

**--->>405<<---** · 06-08-2012, 04:17 PM

i pretty much only use whey mixd in oats pwo for flavor.. i also have an 8oz chicken breast pwo... i dont know about yall but i like to eat and i get HUNGRY A LOT

as for sugar and insulin spikes PWO.. i disagree even when bulking.. but as for cutting itll eliminate ur ability to mobilize fat.. end of story..

**< <Samson> >** · 06-08-2012, 04:50 PM

I dunno bro, I been reading a lot on insulin spikes.

But I never had issues with it. I always had a bit of dairy in my cutting diet and I got to pretty nice n' low Bf%

Of course I have no evidence of this except my own experience.

**--->>405<<---** · 06-08-2012, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by samson_420

I dunno bro, I been reading a lot on insulin spikes.

But I never had issues with it. I always had a bit of dairy in my cutting diet and I got to pretty nice n' low Bf%

Of course I have no evidence of this except my own experience.

curious to what uve read would u mind sharing?

**< <Samson> >** · 06-08-2012, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

curious to what uve read would u mind sharing?

Lol, your post and quite a few others on here.

**Times Roman** · 06-08-2012, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by bobjack

your not gonna go catabolic while working out bro.. just drink it afterwards its actually recommended to drink it atleast 30 mins after workout to let your natural HGH hormones do some work.

a lot of sides to this, that's my opinion

most important thing is hitting your macros

this is a very contraversial subject, with scientific data on both sides.
from personal experience, i do know that the protein shake with the dextrose helps me to stay intense and not fade as I slowly go through my routines. but you need to make sure that what ever is in your shake IS IN your macros for the day!

another way of saying this is that my workouts are more intense with the shake than without the shake

**--->>405<<---** · 06-09-2012, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by samson_420

Lol, your post and quite a few others on here.

Ive read a fair amt about bodyfat and how to lose it and what its comprised of by a very reputable author.. (Lyle MacDonald).. Wat i said about insulin and its affect on fat mobilization is in one of his books.. Theres a lot more to it than wat i posted but the short of it is insulin stops fat mobilization.. Thats something u dont want while cutting.. Only during the carb loading phase of a carb cycle is sugar/simple carbs recommended and only for the purpose of preventing bloating..

**< <Samson> >** · 06-09-2012, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

Ive read a fair amt about bodyfat and how to lose it and what its comprised of by a very reputable author.. (Lyle MacDonald).. Wat i said about insulin and its affect on fat mobilization is in one of his books.. Theres a lot more to it than wat i posted but the short of it is insulin stops fat mobilization.. Thats something u dont want while cutting.. Only during the carb loading phase of a carb cycle is sugar/simple carbs recommended and only for the purpose of preventing bloating..

I listen to what people have say especially after gaining this much weight from not listening to other people's recommendations.

But, some things I form my own conclusions on. There are more than a few ways to cut. For me cutting without sugars would be very tough. Dairy is packed with it and it's a staple in my diet.

My best cuts were from low Carb, high protein & high fat. I shed of pounds while keeping muscle like no other. Main sources of food were dairy and meat.

Sugars and carbs have to be source specific. You can't compare soda to milk.

**JohnnnyBlazzze** · 06-09-2012, 09:37 AM

No milk, milk is for babies.

**gbrice75** · 06-11-2012, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by johnnnyblazzze

No milk, milk is for babies.

One of the worst myths out there! Milk is for babies. Milk will make you 'soft', etc. Horseshit I say!!! There is absolutely nothing wrong with milk so long as you can handle dairy. Milk doesn't make you soft, body fat does. The idea that milk somehow builds 'different' muscle than chicken for instance... is ridiculous! Your body uses the aminos it needs to build muscle. Meat provides them. So does milk.

It's funny... most of the guys who preach this (not saying you Johnny) use whey for 50% of their diet. Let's not forget the casein, cottage cheese, and greek yogurt they eat throughout the day. Where the F do you think this all comes from!?!?!

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-11-2012, 09:08 AM

^^^ Milk is also known for increasing IGF-1 levels, whether the subject is a baby or an adult, results are all the same.

**Wolv256** · 06-11-2012, 12:18 PM

Understood that you wanna eat meals. But, I'm talking about following the recommended nutrition stuff here that says eat about 8 times a day. That gets hard to do. Are you guys saying that you really don't drink postworkout shakes at all? I'd still be eating like crazy, it's not like I'm low on real food. I'd just be drinking about 40-60 grams of protein and 80-120 grams of carbs right after lifting and then eating a real meal about 2 hours later. What benefit would you see eating another meal instead of the postworkout shake that is convienient? And don't say price, because a scoop or two of bulk protein powder and some oatmeal isn't that much more than some chicken breast. Again, not arguing, just trying to hear your logic. An yes, everything depends on your goals, just trying to figure out best practices and why.

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-11-2012, 01:06 PM

OP, no one told you not to drink shakes in this thread.

You are taking it to a completely different level when you construct a sentence like this ''Are you guys saying that you really don't drink postworkout shakes at all?.'' That is one statement I can assure you no one has ever spilled out in this forum.

The most valuable advice that is given to you in this thread was to drop simple sugars and switch to complex carbs for your PWO shakes, and the logic behind this was explained.

It is not a great idea to rely on several shakes throughout the day. Solid food (whole meals) consist of macro-nutrients and have their priority in nutritional regimen for various reasons. If you are eating several meals a day and hitting your daily caloric needs with all the macros in place, then I don't see why we should continue with this discussion.

**< <Samson> >** · 06-11-2012, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

One of the worst myths out there! Milk is for babies. Milk will make you 'soft', etc. Horseshit I say!!! There is absolutely nothing wrong with milk so long as you can handle dairy. Milk doesn't make you soft, body fat does. The idea that milk somehow builds 'different' muscle than chicken for instance... is ridiculous! Your body uses the aminos it needs to build muscle. Meat provides them. So does milk.

It's funny... most of the guys who preach this (not saying you Johnny) use whey for 50% of their diet. Let's not forget the casein, cottage cheese, and greek yogurt they eat throughout the day. Where the F do you think this all comes from!?!?!

I totally agree. . . This is exactly how I feel about dairy.

If all your #'s are in check you can use dairy just fine. I lost plenty of weight in the past on a high dairy diet and I have used dairy in a very clean bulk in the past.

It all depends on how your body handles dairy really. I do just fine to a point, if my dairy gets to high I just get bloated like no other.

**gbrice75** · 06-11-2012, 01:44 PM

I know this goes against the grain of this board in general, but personally I haven't seen a bit of difference in real food vs. shakes. I spent a week (granted, not an inordinary amount of time, but more than most) doing a shake only diet, and my results were neither greater or less than my typical diet of roughly 70% food 30% shakes.

These days, I'm about 60/40 in favor of real food, mainly for satiation reasons. I shoud also note that my shakes are always accompinied by real food; e.g. my protein smoothies are always blended with cottage cheese and/or egg whites, etc.

**JohnnnyBlazzze** · 06-11-2012, 02:00 PM

I was actually quoting Pumping Iron on the milk is for babies lol.

If I do include dairy it is cottage cheese as my last meal for the casein. 1% or even 2% has minimal sugar. If you're main goal is cutting BF% down I don't understand why milk would need to be included? There's plenty of foods out there that are better sources of carbs and protein and lean that don't contain the amount of sugar that milk does. I haven't looked at nutrition facts for milk in a long time but the other day I looked at my roommates 1% milk and in 1 serving of 8oz it contained 15g of sugar. If you're drinking 2 servings of milk a day that's about the same sugar content as eating a snickers bar. When bulking I would be more open to include milk into my diet, but cutting I don't believe it's necessary or needed.

**gbrice75** · 06-11-2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by johnnnyblazzze

I was actually quoting Pumping Iron on the milk is for babies lol.

I kind of figured... the famous Arnold line!

Originally Posted by johnnnyblazzze

If I do include dairy it is cottage cheese as my last meal for the casein. 1% or even 2% has minimal sugar. If you're main goal is cutting BF% down I don't understand why milk would need to be included?

It most definitely wouldn't... and shouldn't, IMO.

Originally Posted by johnnnyblazzze

There's plenty of foods out there that are better sources of carbs and protein and lean that don't contain the amount of sugar that milk does.

Agreed

Originally Posted by johnnnyblazzze

I haven't looked at nutrition facts for milk in a long time but the other day I looked at my roommates 1% milk and in 1 serving of 8oz it contained 15g of sugar. If you're drinking 2 servings of milk a day that's about the same sugar content as eating a snickers bar. When bulking I would be more open to include milk into my diet, but cutting I don't believe it's necessary or needed.

Agreed 100%. I wasn't making a case for why milk should or shouldn't be included in a diet, only disputing that Arnold quote which so many people have adopted as law.

Personally, I try to keep sugar intake low, particularly on a cutting regimen, and that means no milk for me.

**JohnnnyBlazzze** · 06-11-2012, 02:55 PM

Agreed. I keep my sugar intake as low as possible and it has rendered me the best results.

**DeadlyD** · 06-11-2012, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

Just go with grounded oats, whey and 5gr of creatine mono for your PWO shake. Adjust the amount of oats and whey in accordance with your daily macros. That's all you need, really.

spot on Turkish! agree 100%

**< <Samson> >** · 06-11-2012, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by DeadlyD

spot on Turkish! agree 100%

What's funny about this, is that it really is all you need period in a lean PWO shake.

All the other shit is just fatty filler. I'm used to the other crap in my shakes though.

When I go on a full cut all the other crud is gonna go.

**Wolv256** · 06-11-2012, 10:23 PM

Alright guys, to update after experimenting I'd say you guys are right. I'd go with 40-60 grams of protein powder and a cup of oatmeal (80-100 grams carbs) after. When I was just drinking the protein it was fine to drink between sets, however after adding the oatmeal, it felt like a gut bomb to sip on during. However, to chug the whole thing afterwards definitely made me feel more energetic when done then the protein alone. I don't know if this is the so-called insulin spike or what, but I'm a believer. I'll probably try blending the oats into a powder though, since just throwing them in there makes a huge mess. Haven't tried the sugars yet (dextrose/maltodextrin), but I ordered a small batch to try next week, although I probably lean towards oatmeal instead. The concept of purposely pounding sugar seems counterintuitive, but worth a shot I guess.
It's also nice to know you've gotten some calories right after working out with the carbs, to know you actually have some time to prepare a decent meal and not feel like you gotta pound a steak right away.
Thanks.

**gbrice75** · 06-12-2012, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Wolv256

However, to chug the whole thing afterwards definitely made me feel more energetic when done then the protein alone. I don't know if this is the so-called insulin spike or what, but I'm a believer.

It's not an insulin spike per se - oats are a slow, steady burning source that provide stable energy levels.

Originally Posted by Wolv256

Haven't tried the sugars yet (dextrose/maltodextrin), but I ordered a small batch to try next week, although I probably lean towards oatmeal instead. The concept of purposely pounding sugar seems counterintuitive, but worth a shot I guess.

Expect to feel a fast energy rush, and possible crash shortly there after. Personally, I hate it... it's an awful - and very prominent feeling, IMO.