Calorie intake - Training days v Rest days

**Super-Chump** · 07-17-2012, 05:48 AM

Hey guys,

Using a few different methods to calculate my TDEE my requirements are about 3300-3400 to maintain. This calculation takes into consideration the 1-1.5 hours of weight training I do 4 times (sometimes 5) a week. However, when I calculated the requirements for a rest day, one of the calculations was only ~2500 calories. The others calculations were about 3000-3200. I assume the first figure (2500) doesn't take into account the fact that my body is still using energy to repair muscle tissue. I'm confused about exactly how much I should be eating on rest days. Going by what my body is telling me, 3000 calories seems ample on my rest days. The reduction in calories is primarily from carbs. By the way I am bulking so I aim for a 500-800 calorie surplus.

So my question is what are peoples opinions and experiences with their calorie intake on rest days. Should you reduce your carbs on rest days? And how much of a difference is there between your calorie requirements for a rest day v a training day?

Thanks in advance

**--->>405<<---** · 07-17-2012, 06:24 AM

super ur TDEE is a daily energy expenditure (on average) based on a weekly amt of activity. if ur bulking and ur TDEE is say 3000cals, that 3000cals is how many cals ur body requires daily to maintain itself based on the amt of exercise u do for the entire week. with this in mind i would suggest u set ur caloric goal and stick to it 7days per week. its what i do. like u said on "off" days ur body is repairing itself from ur workouts. and also as u prob know we grow when were resting NOT when were lifting

to eliminate the confusion in the future just remember what i said first. TDEE is a daily expenditure based on WEEKLY activity. therefore theoretically u could eat the same amt every day.

when cutting u may want to incorporate a difft strategy. cycling carbs and therefore by default cycling cals. but cutting is a whole difft animal than bulking

hope this helps!

**Super-Chump** · 07-17-2012, 06:45 AM

Thanks 405 that was very useful info! (not trying to be sarcastic)

**gbrice75** · 07-18-2012, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

super ur TDEE is a daily energy expenditure (on average) based on a weekly amt of activity. if ur bulking and ur TDEE is say 3000cals, that 3000cals is how many cals ur body requires daily to maintain itself based on the amt of exercise u do for the entire week. with this in mind i would suggest u set ur caloric goal and stick to it 7days per week. its what i do. like u said on "off" days ur body is repairing itself from ur workouts. and also as u prob know we grow when were resting NOT when were lifting

to eliminate the confusion in the future just remember what i said first. TDEE is a daily expenditure based on WEEKLY activity. therefore theoretically u could eat the same amt every day.

when cutting u may want to incorporate a difft strategy. cycling carbs and therefore by default cycling cals. but cutting is a whole difft animal than bulking

hope this helps!

With all due respect, I disagree. TDEE is exactly what it's acronym implies - total daily energy expenditure. If I workout 4 days a week and my TDEE on those days is 3000 calories and 2200 on off days, we cannot assume my calories should be the same for 7 days. We can argue that my weekly energy expenditure would be 18,600... and plan identical calories for 7 days based on that, but then you risk underfeeding on workout days, and so on... but I digress.

When bulking, my days were set up as follows:

Monday (workout): 275g protein, 450g carbs, 60g fat = 3440 calories (roughly 900-1000 cals over maintenance)

Tuesday (cardio only): 275g protein, 150g carbs, 60g fat = 2800 calories (roughly 400 cals over maintenance, deficit created by reduced carb intake)

Wednesday (workout): same as Monday

Thursday (cardio only): same as Tuesday

Friday (workout): same as Monday

Sat (cardio only) same as Tuesday

Sunday (rest) fibrous veggies only

Note that even on rest days, calories were still over maintenance (therefore aiding in muscle repair) but not nearly as high as on lifting days. Keeping calories as high as I had them (granted, 900-1000 over maintenance is higher than most) would be a surefire way to add bodyfat fast. The logic that you need to maintain higher carbs on rest days for muscle repair is flawed IMO, as the abundance of carbs in general (workout days) will be more than sufficient to keep muscle fed.

My .02

**--->>405<<---** · 07-18-2012, 11:31 AM

GB now maybe im misunderstanding the logic behind TDEE and if so ive been living a misunderstanding for almost an entire year (since i originally started my cut last september).

TDEE: total daily energy expenditure of 1.55 (activity multiplier) assumes u workout 3-5 days per week

Calculate your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure). This will tell you the average number of calories you burn based on your BMR and your daily activity level.

Sedentary = BMR X 1.2 (little or no exercise and a desk or still standing job)
Lightly active = BMR X 1.375 (light exercise or sports one to three times per week)
Moderately active = BMR X 1.55 (moderate exercise or sports three to five times per week)
Very active = BMR X 1.725 (hard exercise or sports six to seven times per week)
Extremely active = BMR X 1.9 (hard daily exercise or sports and a physical job, or twice a day training for an athletic event such as for a marathon or intense competition)

So the figure you come up with will be the average # of calories you burn daily. This number is crucial to us so we can adjust caloric intake in order to bulk (add mass) or cut (reduce body-fat) or even to maintain if that is your goal.

ok so if my BMR = 2000cals and i work out 5 x per week then i multiply 2000cals x 1.55 = 3100cals (this is the number of cals i require daily to maintain my weight based on weekly activity) - i see nothing referencing "off" days. the "off" days are assumed in the multiplier itself (2 "off" days at 5 x work out per week).. to me this means i burn 21,700cals per week due to the fact that my BMR is 2000cals and i work out 5 times each week.. if this formula was to represent a daily expenditure only i see no reason to make reference to how many days per week u work out.. it would simply be 1.55 multiplier for a day of moderate exercise or sports..

therefore every day of the week i require 3100cals to maintain my weight..

how is this incorrect?

**Times Roman** · 07-18-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

GB now maybe im misunderstanding the logic behind TDEE and if so ive been living a misunderstanding for almost an entire year (since i originally started my cut last september).

TDEE: total daily energy expenditure of 1.55 (activity multiplier) assumes u workout 3-5 days per week

Calculate your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure). This will tell you the average number of calories you burn based on your BMR and your daily activity level.

Sedentary = BMR X 1.2 (little or no exercise and a desk or still standing job)
Lightly active = BMR X 1.375 (light exercise or sports one to three times per week)
Moderately active = BMR X 1.55 (moderate exercise or sports three to five times per week)
Very active = BMR X 1.725 (hard exercise or sports six to seven times per week)
Extremely active = BMR X 1.9 (hard daily exercise or sports and a physical job, or twice a day training for an athletic event such as for a marathon or intense competition)

So the figure you come up with will be the average # of calories you burn daily. This number is crucial to us so we can adjust caloric intake in order to bulk (add mass) or cut (reduce body-fat) or even to maintain if that is your goal.

ok so if my BMR = 2000cals and i work out 5 x per week then i multiply 2000cals x 1.55 = 3100cals (this is the number of cals i require daily to maintain my weight based on weekly activity) - i see nothing referencing "off" days. the "off" days are assumed in the multiplier itself (2 "off" days at 5 x work out per week).. to me this means i burn 21,700cals per week due to the fact that my BMR is 2000cals and i work out 5 times each week.. if this formula was to represent a daily expenditure only i see no reason to make reference to how many days per week u work out.. it would simply be 1.55 multiplier for a day of moderate exercise or sports..

therefore every day of the week i require 3100cals to maintain my weight..

how is this incorrect?

I've noticed this too.
405, tbh, the TDEE calculator here isn't the greatest. on the one hand, it is a daily estimate, yet incorporates weekly activity, so the units of measure do not match up. for the tdee to be accurate, it would need seperate daily calculations, since a day at the gym can't really borrow against yesterdays' surplus, unless the surplus was stored as fat. if one were to continue with this tdee calculator, to be precise, you'd have to do a work around for (in)active days. There may be a mathmatical solution based on aproximations and estimates if one really wanted to be precise. Or one could go out and get a tdee that calculates DAILY activity, not weekly activity.

**gbrice75** · 07-18-2012, 11:48 AM

^^ you've read enough of my posts in the past to know i'm not a fan of any of the TDEE formulas... at all. Now you know why. They are WAY too subjective. What you consider 'moderately active' may be worlds apart from what somebody else does. Moderate exercise 3-5 times per week - but I work with weights 3 days per week, and do intense cardio the other 3 days - so what's moderate? Too many variables IMO. I can almost guarantee you 9 out of 10 people will come out on the high side, because everybody likes to think they're doing the most intense workouts ever, when the truth is they're not.

I've been preaching a much simpler approach to finding one's TDEE for a couple years now, and although I've changed my mind with many things in this game as we all continue to learn, this is one I have yet to see reason to change, because it works.

LBM x 15 = starting point. Monitor. Adjust. Dial In. Stick to it. WIN

**gbrice75** · 07-18-2012, 11:49 AM

PS - the "^^" in my post was for 405 - Roman snuck in and posted before I could reply!

**--->>405<<---** · 07-18-2012, 12:26 PM

alright we have some learning going on

it appears my understanding of the formula in the sticky is not incorrect but the sticky itself. maybe it should be removed and replaced???

i remember from UD2.0 Lyle addresses "maintenance" cals as bodyweight x 14-16 (depending on metabolic rate) but i dont recall him pointing it to LBM.

me at 191 and 10%bf would be 171.9lbs LBM x 15 = 2578cals now would i eat this everyday for maintenance and would this be the same on workout days and non workout days?

i do recall u not liking the TDEE formulas used here but i thought it was due to misperception of activity level (as in moderate for one is not moderate for another) and not because it averages cals out daily based on weekly activity. i suppose i shouldve dug a bit deeper with u on this awhile ago

**gbrice75** · 07-18-2012, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

alright we have some learning going on

it appears my understanding of the formula in the sticky is not incorrect but the sticky itself. maybe it should be removed and replaced???

I wouldn't complain. Although I guess it's good for new members to have something to reference. Personally I find it convoluted and too open to interpretation.

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

i remember from UD2.0 Lyle addresses "maintenance" cals as bodyweight x 14-16 (depending on metabolic rate) but i dont recall him pointing it to LBM.

I wouldn't pretend for a single second to be more knowledgeable than Lyle, but I can tell you from personal experience that LBM x 15 has put me nearly spot on for my TDEE. It has also been very close to accurate for quite a few clients i've worked with.

Now don't misunderstand me - it's generally a crude estimate at best, which is why I always tell people to monitor and adjust, which is a responsible habit for ANY diet plan.

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

me at 191 and 10%bf would be 171.9lbs LBM x 15 = 2578cals now would i eat this everyday for maintenance and would this be the same on workout days and non workout days?

You have to take it for what it is. Obviously it doesn't consider activity, or at least activity level. Personally I've found that it was a good TDEE for me for workout days, meaning on non-workout days (assuming I was cutting), i'd reduce. Now if you are a guy who trains, does HIIT, plays basketball 4 nights a week and hikes on the weekends, chances are this will be way low. This works well for your 'average joe'. Somebody who trains, does moderate cardio, but lives an otherwise sedentary lifestyle.

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

i do recall u not liking the TDEE formulas used here but i thought it was due to misperception of activity level (as in moderate for one is not moderate for another) and not because it averages cals out daily based on weekly activity. i suppose i shouldve dug a bit deeper with u on this awhile ago

My main beef has been the subjectivity, but I just don't like them in general to begin with. A person who is new to this whole game is already intimidated by the gym, having to eat right, stick to a regimen, etc. The last thing they need to be doing is convoluted math calculations to figure out their calories.

**JohnnnyBlazzze** · 07-18-2012, 01:22 PM

Good stuff here!

**Times Roman** · 07-18-2012, 01:34 PM

I was talking to my son just recently about the subjectivity aspect of the activity multiplier. I feel GB is right that we all have a tendency to overstate our activity a bit, and therefore we are eating too many cals, especially if trying to cut. Anyways, I'll bow out now, since i'm not an expert in this area and usually have to bug GB if I need clarification on anything.

Cheers!

**--->>405<<---** · 07-18-2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I wouldn't complain. Although I guess it's good for new members to have something to reference. Personally I find it convoluted and too open to interpretation.

yeh ive just gotten used to 800-950cal deficit below the number and it has workd and does work.. this is why i never really investigated further.

I wouldn't pretend for a single second to be more knowledgeable than Lyle, but I can tell you from personal experience that LBM x 15 has put me nearly spot on for my TDEE. It has also been very close to accurate for quite a few clients i've worked with. i think when im done with this cut i will incorporate ur tdee for maintenance. its funny last time i did maintenance i went as high as 3000-3500 cals per day and only put on about 10lbs in 8 weeks. with no cardio. i suppose i was not as diligent as i shoulda been but coming off that LOOOONNNNNGGG cut i needed a break! i was thinking 2500cals this time to see how i fare.. maybe i was on to something!

Now don't misunderstand me - it's generally a crude estimate at best, which is why I always tell people to monitor and adjust, which is a responsible habit for ANY diet plan.

You have to take it for what it is. Obviously it doesn't consider activity, or at least activity level. Personally I've found that it was a good TDEE for me for workout days, meaning on non-workout days (assuming I was cutting), i'd reduce. Now if you are a guy who trains, does HIIT, plays basketball 4 nights a week and hikes on the weekends, chances are this will be way low. This works well for your 'average joe'. Somebody who trains, does moderate cardio, but lives an otherwise sedentary lifestyle.

what would u consider a good starting formula x LBM for strictly maintenance with a guy lifting 3days per week and cardio 3 days per week?? the same as above? and this is for 7days per week...

My main beef has been the subjectivity, but I just don't like them in general to begin with. A person who is new to this whole game is already intimidated by the gym, having to eat right, stick to a regimen, etc. The last thing they need to be doing is convoluted math calculations to figure out their calories.

this is the reason i gave for thinking the sticky should be modified/replaced..

**gbrice75** · 07-18-2012, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

what would u consider a good starting formula x LBM for strictly maintenance with a guy lifting 3days per week and cardio 3 days per week?? the same as above? and this is for 7days per week...

I'd still go with lbm x 15 ... remember that it's nothing more than a starting point. I'd monitor closely for a couple of weeks and if I were losing weight, the first thing i'd do is bump calories on workout days (assuming the weight loss wasn't causing me to become super ripped, in which case i'd continue forging ahead) and see how that fairs. Eventually, you'll be at a point where you're maintaining your current weight with little to no change in body composition.

As mentioned earlier, when you have a good idea of what your weekly maintenance is, you can take that number and divide it evenly by 7 - however I find that the former is geared more towards maintaining gains and keeping bodyfat low.

**--->>405<<---** · 07-18-2012, 02:52 PM

good deal. im still working around macro split for true maintenance. was thinking

2500cals
300g pro
200g carbs
60g fat

to start.. i like ur idea of bumping cals on workout days if im losing weight. and the statement about becoming super ripped is funny LOL

im glad this thing about tdee came up..

**gbrice75** · 07-19-2012, 09:02 AM

^^ pretty close to mine as well... i'm a bit lower... probably 275g protein/150g carbs.

**AXx** · 07-19-2012, 07:55 PM

Love it!!!! I think a lot of people could benefit from this!!! I learned something but somehow my TDEE and LBMx15= The same thing!!

Cheers guys, y'all are awesome.

**gbrice75** · 07-20-2012, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by 3Js

Love it!!!! I think a lot of people could benefit from this!!! I learned something but somehow my TDEE and LBMx15= The same thing!!
Cheers guys, y'all are awesome.

This means you've chosen the right activity multiplier for your level. Good job, 90% of people don't!

**--->>405<<---** · 07-22-2012, 12:21 PM

Bump!

**thex95** · 07-22-2012, 12:58 PM

Thanks for the bump on this good sir! Awesome thread read

**Dean18** · 08-26-2012, 11:30 AM

Love following your discussion and logic. So if I calculate TDEE at 15X LBM and I want to cut I just drop cals by what %, and if I do a lean bulk cycle I raise them by what %. Will the macros ratios stay the same?

**mockery** · 08-26-2012, 11:56 AM

You have to take it for what it is. Obviously it doesn't consider activity, or at least activity level. Personally I've found that it was a good TDEE for me for workout days, meaning on non-workout days (assuming I was cutting), i'd reduce. Now if you are a guy who trains, does HIIT, plays basketball 4 nights a week and hikes on the weekends, chances are this will be way low. This works well for your 'average joe'. Somebody who trains, does moderate cardio, but lives an otherwise sedentary lifestyle.

im lazy and a computer geek so the lbm x 14 is perfect for me 2300ish , so i could carb cycle 3 low (1800) one high(2300-2600). in 4 day sets. i work out 6 days a week. with slow tut protocols. where does this leave me? lean weight gain or cutting ( i know id have to do it for 2-3 weeks and see what happens ) but on paper...

in theory im tryin to mimic franks zane approach to gaining weight with out "bulking" using carb cycling.

**Times Roman** · 08-26-2012, 12:18 PM

I am a little confused about one aspect of this conversation.

workout days have a higher activity level than non workout days. therefore, just to maintain, caloric intake needs to be greater on workout days than on non workout days, if we want to be absolutely precise and "break even" on our caloric intake and caloric burn on a daily basis.

so the lbm x 15 rule of thumb, is that just a better estimate of the weekly caloric needs? I don't see how that can improve my knowledge of what i need to consume on a work out v. non work out day.

Or are we saying lbm x 15 is just a bettter estimate of stasis allowing us to avoid the subjectivity of the "activity multiplier" over the course of a week?

**mockery** · 08-26-2012, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I am a little confused about one aspect of this conversation.

workout days have a higher activity level than non workout days. therefore, just to maintain, caloric intake needs to be greater on workout days than on non workout days, if we want to be absolutely precise and "break even" on our caloric intake and caloric burn on a daily basis.

so the lbm x 15 rule of thumb, is that just a better estimate of the weekly caloric needs? I don't see how that can improve my knowledge of what i need to consume on a work out v. non work out day.

Or are we saying lbm x 15 is just a bettter estimate of stasis allowing us to avoid the subjectivity of the "activity multiplier" over the course of a week?

make your own daily multiple , take lbm x 14 then add on the amount of cardio you did that day and another 230 for resistance training. if you wanna break even. lbm x 14 could be enough on a work out day, and then rest days you would probably lower it by 20% BUT u need to find what works for you. so run lbm x 14 for two weeks and monitor how your weight shifts up or down. and adjust there in small increments up or down depending on your goal, we are trying to achieve a much more personal goal set apposed to the old school tdee.

going to get your RMR tested could further pin point your daily calorie needs knowing your specific resting metabolic rate then on work out days add in the amount of cardio you do and resistance training being more accurate with your daily calories. the concept of -500 cut doesnt seem to work well as 405 taught me -900 works well. + 500 surplus might just cause to much fat gain so why not start at a surplus of +50 or 100 and go from there if you are not gaining weight adjust till you do.

Think of it this way, you gain 5 lbs of muscle in a year with say 5 lbs of fat along side that. you have gained 10 lbs, and that is your natural genetic limit for the year .. ( 1/2 lb lbm a month ) why would you need a even higher surplus of calories that will just cause you to gain more fat .. if you know the most you can gain is 10 lbs 5 lean 5 fat. target Ur surplus so you are gaining 0.25 weight a week. anything higher will more then likely go to fat. Just my opinion on this.

# obviously gear will change this a bit but not much if you lose your gains after a cycle

# some could gain as much as 12lbs LBM a year 1x12, but thats very rare and mythed. 5lbs is reasonable. and you ask any competing body builder and he would say, man i wish i grew 5 lbs every year lbm.

**gbrice75** · 08-27-2012, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Dean18

Love following your discussion and logic. So if I calculate TDEE at 15X LBM and I want to cut I just drop cals by what %, and if I do a lean bulk cycle I raise them by what %. Will the macros ratios stay the same?

What i'd do (assuming you haven't already figured out your own TDEE by previous trial and error) is start at LBM x 15 for a good 3 weeks or so and monitor yourself closely. This should tell you what you need to do to achieve your goals. i.e. you might find you're already dropping weight. Assuming it's a healthy loss (1-2lbs/week) and there are no obvious 'bad' signs (complete lack of energy, strength/muscle loss, etc) you may be able to stay right there. It'd be safe to assume that your TDEE is a bit higher. However if LBM x 15 has you maintaining (seldom will this be the case right down to the letter), i'd suggest reducing by 300-500 calories/day to start a cut.

**Dean18** · 08-27-2012, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

What i'd do (assuming you haven't already figured out your own TDEE by previous trial and error) is start at LBM x 15 for a good 3 weeks or so and monitor yourself closely. This should tell you what you need to do to achieve your goals. i.e. you might find you're already dropping weight. Assuming it's a healthy loss (1-2lbs/week) and there are no obvious 'bad' signs (complete lack of energy, strength/muscle loss, etc) you may be able to stay right there. It'd be safe to assume that your TDEE is a bit higher. However if LBM x 15 has you maintaining (seldom will this be the case right down to the letter), i'd suggest reducing by 300-500 calories/day to start a cut.

Thanks, GB! This helps a lot, I had been using the formula mentioned earlier in the thread and the calories were too high. One more question if you don't mind. what percentage of macros do you use? and do they stay the same no matter what your goal, only adjusting calories?

**gbrice75** · 08-28-2012, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dean18

Thanks, GB! This helps a lot, I had been using the formula mentioned earlier in the thread and the calories were too high.

I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by Dean18

One more question if you don't mind. what percentage of macros do you use?

Typically for a cut i'll carb cycle, so it varies from day to day. But if I were to run a straight caloric deficit 7 days a week (I am actually doing that now), i'll typically go with something along the lines of 55/25/20 or 55/30/15.

Originally Posted by Dean18

and do they stay the same no matter what your goal, only adjusting calories?

Definitely not. While overall calories is the biggest factor, I do change up my macros. For instance, carbs and fats are protein and muscle sparing, so there isn't the need to have protein as high in a bulking diet. Furthermore, carbs are the 'workhorse' of building muscle, so we want them higher. I'll generally go with a 40/45/15 for bulking. It all can vary slightly, and I definitely make some adjustments along the way.

**Dean18** · 08-28-2012, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I'm not surprised.

Typically for a cut i'll carb cycle, so it varies from day to day. But if I were to run a straight caloric deficit 7 days a week (I am actually doing that now), i'll typically go with something along the lines of 55/25/20 or 55/30/15.

Definitely not. While overall calories is the biggest factor, I do change up my macros. For instance, carbs and fats are protein and muscle sparing, so there isn't the need to have protein as high in a bulking diet. Furthermore, carbs are the 'workhorse' of building muscle, so we want them higher. I'll generally go with a 40/45/15 for bulking. It all can vary slightly, and I definitely make some adjustments along the way.

Thanks again, I have the macros about right for my cut, but I never would have known to boost carbs and cut back on protein for a bulk. Could explain why I didn't see the results I wanted from my last bulk. I was doing very high protein and lower carbs.

**mockery** · 08-28-2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dean18

Thanks again, I have the macros about right for my cut, but I never would have known to boost carbs and cut back on protein for a bulk. Could explain why I didn't see the results I wanted from my last bulk. I was doing very high protein and lower carbs.

From the best of my knowledge you cant be running high protein all the time. You need to do delaods and cut back half the amount of protein. but on a bulk u need the calories to stay the same so you need to switch in the carbs.

as for not gaining on a bulk, its more of a issue of if you were eating enough calories in general. I will bulk on high amount of protein for example but its not cost efficient and you have to eat whole foods even more so and limit protein shakes as much as possible. Gbrice would have the name for this, carbs are great im just carb sensitive now so i have to do what works for me. Plus im never allowing myself to bulk much higher then my current weight only a few pounds and i have to monitor this closely, trial and error i am my own test group. i will deload protein again in 4 weeks or so, and at this point im curious to see what will happen with the introduction of high carbs.

The only thing i can add onto what Gbrice has said is this: Dont give up ur bulk or cut if you find after 2-3 weeks you are not seeing the changes nessary dont quit !! ADJUST accordingly and trouble shoot.

**gbrice75** · 08-29-2012, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dean18

Thanks again, I have the macros about right for my cut, but I never would have known to boost carbs and cut back on protein for a bulk. Could explain why I didn't see the results I wanted from my last bulk. I was doing very high protein and lower carbs.

Personally, my protein macro hardly changes. I keep it pretty consistent - between 250g - 300g, usually falling somewhere in the middle. Fats range between 45-60g. Carbs are the only macro I really manipulate based on my goals.

With regards to high protein/lower carbs and bulking - you have to remember that protein doesn't need to be super high. Most guys are already consuming too much protein, and those additional calories could be coming from a much more useful source (carbs). More protein isn't necessarily going to equal more muscle; if it were that simple, all we'd have to do is eat 500g protein/day and train hard, and we'd all look like beasts. But that's not the case. Carbs are the workhorse. They're the actual energy source. Simple analogy is that of building a house: protein is the raw material to build the house (muscle), carbs are the 'workers' who use the raw material to build. You can have TONS of materials but if you don't have enough workers, you're not going to get anywhere fast. You only need 'enough' raw materials. More workers = faster building. Now realize this is a crude example because we have to pay attention to bodyfat, etc. So it's not as simple as building a house, but hopefully you get the correlation.

Originally Posted by mockery;6134***

From the best of my knowledge you cant be running high protein all the time. You need to do delaods and cut back half the amount of protein. but on a bulk u need the calories to stay the same so you need to switch in the carbs.

This is why I never run high protein. I just don't see how it's necessary. As such, I rarely need to deload.

**mockery** · 08-29-2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Personally, my protein macro hardly changes. I keep it pretty consistent - between 250g - 300g, usually falling somewhere in the middle. Fats range between 45-60g. Carbs are the only macro I really manipulate based on my goals.

With regards to high protein/lower carbs and bulking - you have to remember that protein doesn't need to be super high. Most guys are already consuming too much protein, and those additional calories could be coming from a much more useful source (carbs). More protein isn't necessarily going to equal more muscle; if it were that simple, all we'd have to do is eat 500g protein/day and train hard, and we'd all look like beasts. But that's not the case. Carbs are the workhorse. They're the actual energy source. Simple analogy is that of building a house: protein is the raw material to build the house (muscle), carbs are the 'workers' who use the raw material to build. You can have TONS of materials but if you don't have enough workers, you're not going to get anywhere fast. You only need 'enough' raw materials. More workers = faster building. Now realize this is a crude example because we have to pay attention to bodyfat, etc. So it's not as simple as building a house, but hopefully you get the correlation.

This is why I never run high protein. I just don't see how it's necessary. As such, I rarely need to deload.

Other then being on aas, I agree no point going over 200g protein

**gbrice75** · 08-29-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by mockery

Other then being on aas, I agree no point going over 200g protein

Well, I wouldn't go that far. It all depends on LBM bro. 200g of protein for a 200lb male at 10% bf is going to be too low IMO. I'd have him at 275g minimum. What I'm referring more to is the kids who are 165lbs @ 16% bodyfat with 350g protein.

**Dean18** · 08-29-2012, 03:53 PM

You guys are great, I have learned more from GB et. al. in a few days than all of the complicated stuff I have read for years. The simple explanation of how carbs are used in bulking makes more sense than anything I have heard to date. I always thought carbs did nothing but make you fat. My cut is going well 8lbs in 3 weeks. Now I can't wait to hit it hard with my next bulk.