Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 53
  1. #1
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579

    Post workout 'window'

    I remember reading somewhere about this 'window' that we have to get nutrients in post workout.. And then I remember reading somewhere else that that's just a myth. I don't much care because my diets spot on and I have my regular shake on time PWO. But just for general knowledge sake i'd like some clarity on that!

  2. #2
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
    --->>405<<--- is offline Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,836
    PWO window = BULLSHIT

    Clear enuff?

  3. #3
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<---
    PWO window = BULLSHIT

    Clear enuff?
    Exactly the kind of answer I like.

  4. #4
    Bulkn's Avatar
    Bulkn is offline Productive Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Australia!
    Posts
    926
    Do you have anything to back that up 405? Any studies or something i can have a read through?

  5. #5
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    CANADA
    Posts
    13,200
    this is an excellent read..start here Bulkn..

    The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths
    by Dave Barr

    http://www.t-n a t i o n.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_top_10_post_workout_nutrition_myths
    Last edited by MickeyKnox; 09-08-2012 at 08:04 PM.

  6. #6
    LT75's Avatar
    LT75 is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    249
    Some studies have shown pre-workout nutrition is more important than post workout.

  7. #7
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    CANADA
    Posts
    13,200
    Quote Originally Posted by LT75 View Post
    Some studies have shown pre-workout nutrition is more important than post workout.
    totally agree bro. pre workout meals are twice a effective at stimulating muscle growth.

  8. #8
    stpete is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kitchen, Gym, Kitchen....
    Posts
    13,716
    It's always worked well for me. And besides, i'd probably faint if i didn't get a meal in within an hour or so after my workout. I'm freakin starving within 30 minutes of leaving the gym.

  9. #9
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyKnox
    this is an excellent read..start here Bulkn..

    The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths
    by Dave Barr

    http://www.t-n a t i o n.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_top_10_post_workout_nutrition_myths
    Wow !! I book marked that in my iPhone. Amazing read I highly suggest it.

    Especially the part where he says "Canadian men are hung like moose."lolol

  10. #10
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    CANADA
    Posts
    13,200
    Quote Originally Posted by GreMos View Post
    Wow !! I book marked that in my iPhone. Amazing read I highly suggest it.

    Especially the part where he says "Canadian men are hung like moose."lolol
    i know! and it comes complete with claim references for Bulkn to peruse while he's on the toilet (lol)

  11. #11
    Live for the PUMP's Avatar
    Live for the PUMP is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    West Coast Desert Rat
    Posts
    1,686
    I don't know If I would call it a "window". It is IMO the most important meal of the day. I don't wait more than 30 mins after a workout to get carbs/protein. Immediately preferably.

  12. #12
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by Live for the PUMP
    I don't know If I would call it a "window". It is IMO the most important meal of the day. I don't wait more than 30 mins after a workout to get carbs/protein. Immediately preferably.
    I have to disagree.. The most important meal of any day for anybody anywhere in any lifestyle is breakfast. IMO anyway.

    But i do respect your opinion! And would like you to elaborate on this as too why?

  13. #13
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    CANADA
    Posts
    13,200
    i think the most important meal of the day, is the one you're eating...it could be your last.

  14. #14
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyKnox
    i think the most important meal of the day, is the one you're eating...it could be your last.
    Well that was dark and depressing. And for someone who's TRYING TO DIET AND LEAN UP it sure makes me wanna throw that out the window. THANKS. Just kidding hahaha

  15. #15
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    CANADA
    Posts
    13,200
    haha

  16. #16
    Live for the PUMP's Avatar
    Live for the PUMP is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    West Coast Desert Rat
    Posts
    1,686
    Quote Originally Posted by GreMos View Post
    I have to disagree.. The most important meal of any day for anybody anywhere in any lifestyle is breakfast. IMO anyway.

    But i do respect your opinion! And would like you to elaborate on this as too why?
    Ok, I agree Breakfast is most important meal. (Don't think I've missed one in 31 yrs) But PWO is the same idea. Both situations Glycogen levels are depleted. I do highly value eating PWO meal immediately after workout, where as breakfast no big deal to have some coffee and relax first.

  17. #17
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by Live for the PUMP

    Ok, I agree Breakfast is most important meal. (Don't think I've missed one in 31 yrs) But PWO is the same idea. Both situations Glycogen levels are depleted. I do highly value eating PWO meal immediately after workout, where as breakfast no big deal to have some coffee and relax first.
    Well not exactly.. While sleeping you don't have the opportunity to nourish yourself therefore you're catabolic too the max. You're catabolic throughout a workout and after too unless you're on tons of gear.. But you can easily have a very good pre-workout meal which is supposedly more effective than post.

    A friend of mine took second place in a provincial competition for woman's and she told me the same thing. She highly believes in pre workout liquids.. Although she didn't cite any studies so these statements haven't been validated.

    So.. If you have a great pre workout carb up, I don't see why your glycogen levels would be THAT depleted.

    Correct me if I'm wrong! I'm not stating these are facts just reiterating what I read and what not.

  18. #18
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by stpete
    It's always worked well for me. And besides, i'd probably faint if i didn't get a meal in within an hour or so after my workout. I'm freakin starving within 30 minutes of leaving the gym.
    I wish.. I eat my regular meals all day long and I'm pissed the next one has come around. I'm NEVER hungry but I force myself to eat 6-7 meals a day. I literally only get hungry at the 5-7 hour mark. That's how fvcked my fata$$ metabolism is.

    But! I never miss a meal even though I have to force it.

  19. #19
    gearbox's Avatar
    gearbox is offline Knowledgeable Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5,357
    I do not have studies in front of me. But the supplement industry has glued in our minds we need a shake asap after work out or we will see not grow.
    Every study I have read shows your body is craving nutrients up to 5 hours after work out. You can go hm shower then get your meal on. A shake is a horrible pwo imo cause its digested in less then 1.5 hours where as eggs take 4 hours and red meat even longer. So I eat oats (complex carb) and a lean steak and my body is breaking it down for the next 6+ hours all the protein aminos found in meat etc.
    However, some ppl are on strict diets and eat small meal often. Like Pete said he is starving after a work out, I typically as too. But taking a shower first is not going to make a difference on my gains.
    Your bed time meal- this would depend on your fitness goals. And as said above your body is not in a catabolic state if you eat the right foods before you go to bed. Obviously quantity ans macro break down is diff depending on goals.
    Again morning meal- cortisol levels are at its peak in the morning so I would get a well balanced meal quickly. (If your running gear the advise changes imo)
    But a Morning meal is extremely important.
    I would not be abke to pick the most important meal because every meal is important throughout the day. And making sure we balance our Marcos.
    What good is a pre or pwo meal if we eat crap before and after or do not eat at all.

  20. #20
    Back In Black's Avatar
    Back In Black is offline Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    17,182
    There is no most important meal of the day. Unless you eat only 1 meal per day.

    Get your diets dialled in an no one meal is more important than the other. It takes a loooooong time for your body to go catabolic. It would much rather feed off fat than muscle for fuel.

    As for using whey and/or fast digesting carbs at breakfast and/or workout? I've never noticed any difference in using chicken and oats other than I don't get sweats/nausea using real food.

    HIT YOUR MACRO'S AND CALS PERFECTLY! Then you needn't worry about what hype over supplements and the studies the supplement companies pay for in this billion dollar industry!!!!!
    NO SOURCES GIVEN

  21. #21
    baseline_9's Avatar
    baseline_9 is offline The Transformer ~VET~Recognized Staff Winner - $100
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    UK Get in the diet forum!
    Posts
    7,901
    Quote Originally Posted by SteM View Post
    There is no most important meal of the day. Unless you eat only 1 meal per day.

    Get your diets dialled in an no one meal is more important than the other. It takes a loooooong time for your body to go catabolic. It would much rather feed off fat than muscle for fuel.

    As for using whey and/or fast digesting carbs at breakfast and/or workout? I've never noticed any difference in using chicken and oats other than I don't get sweats/nausea using real food.

    HIT YOUR MACRO'S AND CALS PERFECTLY! Then you needn't worry about what hype over supplements and the studies the supplement companies pay for in this billion dollar industry!!!!!
    Solid post....

    Way too much bioscience going on in this thread lol

  22. #22
    951thompson's Avatar
    951thompson is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,405
    Nuim
    Last edited by 951thompson; 09-10-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  23. #23
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9

    Solid post....

    Way too much bioscience going on in this thread lol
    Bro science goes on in every thread I think I've ever read... :P

    But I agree. Good knowledge in that post.

  24. #24
    AXx's Avatar
    AXx
    AXx is offline AR's hose draggin' post whore~Recognized Member Winner - $100
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    5,178
    Quote Originally Posted by gearbox
    I do not have studies in front of me. But the supplement industry has glued in our minds we need a shake asap after work out or we will see not grow.
    Every study I have read shows your body is craving nutrients up to 5 hours after work out. You can go hm shower then get your meal on. A shake is a horrible pwo imo cause its digested in less then 1.5 hours where as eggs take 4 hours and red meat even longer. So I eat oats (complex carb) and a lean steak and my body is breaking it down for the next 6+ hours all the protein aminos found in meat etc.
    However, some ppl are on strict diets and eat small meal often. Like Pete said he is starving after a work out, I typically as too. But taking a shower first is not going to make a difference on my gains.
    Your bed time meal- this would depend on your fitness goals. And as said above your body is not in a catabolic state if you eat the right foods before you go to bed. Obviously quantity ans macro break down is diff depending on goals.
    Again morning meal- cortisol levels are at its peak in the morning so I would get a well balanced meal quickly. (If your running gear the advise changes imo)
    But a Morning meal is extremely important.
    I would not be abke to pick the most important meal because every meal is important throughout the day. And making sure we balance our Marcos.
    What good is a pre or pwo meal if we eat crap before and after or do not eat at all.
    I humbly agree

    Quote Originally Posted by SteM
    There is no most important meal of the day. Unless you eat only 1 meal per day.

    Get your diets dialled in an no one meal is more important than the other. It takes a loooooong time for your body to go catabolic. It would much rather feed off fat than muscle for fuel.

    As for using whey and/or fast digesting carbs at breakfast and/or workout? I've never noticed any difference in using chicken and oats other than I don't get sweats/nausea using real food.

    HIT YOUR MACRO'S AND CALS PERFECTLY! Then you needn't worry about what hype over supplements and the studies the supplement companies pay for in this billion dollar industry!!!!!

    Solid post.

  25. #25
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
    --->>405<<--- is offline Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulkn View Post
    Do you have anything to back that up 405? Any studies or something i can have a read through?
    looks like everything has been covered already..

    i suppose i could browse the internet to find articles that back-up my claim but anyone can do that to back up anything. IMO better is my own personal experience. over the past year my stats have gone from:

    213lbs 22%bf (166.14lbs LBM) TO
    202lbs 10%bf (181.8lbs LBM)

    a decrease in 12%bf and increase of 15.66lbs LBM. (most of which was done after eliminating protein powder from my diet and replacing it with meat PWO. and i usually dont begin eating until 1hr PWO..sometimes longer..)

    my around workout meal schedule looks like this:

    0730-0830 meal 1

    1200-1300 lift

    1400 meal 2 (PWO) which as of late consists of ground beef (slow digesting protein) and whole wheat pasta (while bulking and oats while cutting -->> we wont even get into my 4 in a row carb cycle days of meat and broccoli only).. .

    i suppose one could argue my results would have been better had i succumbed to what i consider to be the BS logic of insulin spikes and the one hr window of opportunity. i suppose we will never know! but ill take what i got!

  26. #26
    gbrice75's Avatar
    gbrice75 is offline AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    17,457
    Quote Originally Posted by baseline_9 View Post
    Solid post....

    Way too much bioscience going on in this thread lol
    x3, great post. Stem, you still have my vote for the next round of Monitor's come promotion time!

    OP - read my 'cutting 101' sticky - I address the PWO window quite a bit. http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.UE4VJ7KPXIQ

    Quote Originally Posted by 951thompson View Post
    Check this link out, its an interesting read-
    Bro, I know we've butted heads a bit in another thread so please don't take this as me gunning for you - but I've mentioned to you before that posting links to other sites is against the rules, and ask that you please edit your post. I don't care if you type out the link or use 'dot com' to be honest; I know it sounds silly, but rules are rules.

  27. #27
    951thompson's Avatar
    951thompson is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75

    x3, great post. Stem, you still have my vote for the next round of Monitor's come promotion time!

    OP - read my 'cutting 101' sticky - I address the PWO window quite a bit. http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.UE4VJ7KPXIQ

    Bro, I know we've butted heads a bit in another thread so please don't take this as me gunning for you - but I've mentioned to you before that posting links to other sites is against the rules, and ask that you please edit your post. I don't care if you type out the link or use 'dot com' to be honest; I know it sounds silly, but rules are rules.
    Yeah sure it slipped my mind, my apologies.

  28. #28
    gearbox's Avatar
    gearbox is offline Knowledgeable Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5,357
    Quote Originally Posted by 951thompson

    Yeah sure it slipped my mind, my apologies.
    See this what makes this forum great. No defensiveness or arguing.
    Props to you thompson

  29. #29
    Times Roman's Avatar
    Times Roman is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Back from Afghanistan
    Posts
    27,383
    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    PWO window = BULLSHIT

    Clear enuff?
    Mate,
    Please understand i respect you and Gbrice and the rest. Your knowledge is good, no arugment there. But i have actually read books and articles, and actual studies, albeit several years old, that cited the anabolic window and the benefits of the 2:1 infusion during this time.

    I've asked several times, since i've never seen any data on your side of the discussion, but I've asked for some data so i can see for myself, but for some reason, after I ask, the thread just kind of dies after that.

    Again, I'm not trying to argue, as several knowledgable people, yourself included, have taken this position. I would just like to see the clinical data that supports this position and refute the position of the anabolic window.

    Can you help me out?

    Thanks mate!

  30. #30
    951thompson's Avatar
    951thompson is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by gearbox

    See this what makes this forum great. No defensiveness or arguing.
    Props to you thompson
    Thank you for that sir :-)

  31. #31
    951thompson's Avatar
    951thompson is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,405
    I retract my statement
    Last edited by 951thompson; 09-10-2012 at 12:39 PM.

  32. #32
    GreMos's Avatar
    GreMos is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by 951thompson
    I retract my statement
    Damnit I didn't even get to read it

  33. #33
    gbrice75's Avatar
    gbrice75 is offline AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    17,457
    Quote Originally Posted by 951thompson View Post
    Yeah sure it slipped my mind, my apologies.
    Thanks brother, appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gearbox View Post
    See this what makes this forum great. No defensiveness or arguing.
    Props to you thompson
    x2

    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    Mate,
    Please understand i respect you and Gbrice and the rest. Your knowledge is good, no arugment there. But i have actually read books and articles, and actual studies, albeit several years old, that cited the anabolic window and the benefits of the 2:1 infusion during this time.

    I've asked several times, since i've never seen any data on your side of the discussion, but I've asked for some data so i can see for myself, but for some reason, after I ask, the thread just kind of dies after that.

    Again, I'm not trying to argue, as several knowledgable people, yourself included, have taken this position. I would just like to see the clinical data that supports this position and refute the position of the anabolic window.

    Can you help me out?

    Thanks mate!
    TR - I will try and dig some studies up to cite. I just never seem to spend enough CONSISTENT time on the board nowadays to follow through / follow up. I will try!

  34. #34
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
    --->>405<<--- is offline Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    Mate,
    Please understand i respect you and Gbrice and the rest. Your knowledge is good, no arugment there. But i have actually read books and articles, and actual studies, albeit several years old, that cited the anabolic window and the benefits of the 2:1 infusion during this time.

    I've asked several times, since i've never seen any data on your side of the discussion, but I've asked for some data so i can see for myself, but for some reason, after I ask, the thread just kind of dies after that.

    Again, I'm not trying to argue, as several knowledgable people, yourself included, have taken this position. I would just like to see the clinical data that supports this position and refute the position of the anabolic window.

    Can you help me out?

    Thanks mate!
    hey TR no problem man! here is an article from Lyle MacDonalds website (bodyrecomposition) addressing pre workout vs post workout nutrition. i think its important to note that what is not said (reference to an anabolic window in which nutrient intake is critical) IMO is as important as what is said.

    Pre- vs. Post-Workout Nutrition – Q&A

    Question: If protein and other nutrients take time to be broken down and utilized, does it really matter whether or not you have a PWO meal, if you’ve had a large meal relatively soon before your training? In other words, can a Pre-workout meal be just as beneficial as a post-workout meal (if not better)? Isn’t it important to have AA in your blood stream when training? And if there is a designated time for digestion, wouldn’t the other nutrients effectively help recovery, even though they were consumed before hand?
    Answer: As usual this is going to be one of those longish ‘it depends’ kinds of answers and I’m probably going to go way off track in trying to answer it. As I discussed in The Protein Book, some recent research certainly suggested that pre-workout nutrients (carbs and protein, and I’ll assume the combination from here on out) were superior to post-workout nutrients in terms of promoting protein synthesis.
    Other research wasn’t so positive but it did look like having nutrients in the system during/immediately after workout might be better than waiting until afterwards. Some of it depended on the form of nutrients (especially protein consumed); in one study immediate pre-workout essential amino acids (EAA’s) were better than post-workout EAA’s. In another, a whole protein taken right before training wasn’t superior to post-workout; this may have been an issue of digestion time.
    I would note that protein synthesis isn’t the only goal here; maintaining high levels of training intensity during a workout is also key and pre- and/or during-workout nutrition can benefit folks there as well. A complication of that research was that most of it was done fasted, that is first thing in the morning, after folks hadn’t eaten for many hours. While that is relevant to some people (e.g. those who train first thing in the morning), many if not most trainees will have eaten something prior to the immediate pre-workout period. This complicates issues.
    And the general picture that seems to be developing is that if someone is in the ‘fed’ state, that is they have eaten within a few hours of their workout, pre-workout nutrients don’t seem to provide any major benefit. This mainly has to do with the slow digestion time of whole foods. A relatively ‘normal’ whole-food meal is still releasing nutrients (carbs and protein) into the bloodstream as much as 4-5 hours after you eat it.
    So if you’ve eaten within 2-3 hours of your workout, you already have nutrients in the system and probably don’t have much of a need to eat anything right beforehand. On the other hand, if it’s been 4 or more hours since your last meal (e.g. you eat lunch at 1pm and don’t get to the gym until 5-6pm), consuming something immediately before your workout is probably a good idea. Not only will you get some protein into the system that will be available during and right after training, a small amount of carbs will ensure that blood glucose is normalized so that you can have your best workout.
    Depending on what type of training you’re doing, you may also find that during and post-workout nutrition is also beneficial. The length of the workout, type of workout, etc. all go into this determination.
    So again, the answer is that it depends. Certainly there is some logic to having nutrients in the system during and right after training by consuming something right before workout. But this is complicated by whether or not you’ve eaten a whole-food meal in the few hours before your training. As above, if you’ve eaten within 2-3 hours, I wouldn’t bother with anything before your workout.
    If it’s been 3-4 hours since your last meal, I’d suggest at least experimenting with eating something maybe 30 minutes before workout (this could be a protein bar, a small carb/protein drink) to normalize blood glucose and get some amino acids into the system is probably a good idea.
    About 0.3-0.5 g/kg (0.14-0.23 g/lb) of both carbs and protein would be a good starting place. For a 180 lb lifter that’s 25-40 grams of carbs and protein combined about 30 minutes before your workout (to give the nutrients time to get into your system).
    I would mention that a small percentage of people seem to get rebound blood sugar issues from consuming rapidly digesting nutrients right before a workout; if you’re one of them you’ll want to wait until you start warming up to eat anything. Exercise blunts insulin response and waiting until your warm-up to start eating anything limits the possibility of a negative blood glucose response.
    I should also mention that one or two recent studies have intriguingly suggested that training in a completely fasted state might have benefits in terms of activation of some of the molecular markers involved in growth and adaptation to training. So far nobody has looked to see if this truly impacts on growth down the road so I’m remaining on the fence until more research becomes available. My gut hunch says that having nutrients in the system will be superior to not having them available but if research comes out against that, I’ll happily change my mind.
    Hope that answers your question.

  35. #35
    Times Roman's Avatar
    Times Roman is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Back from Afghanistan
    Posts
    27,383
    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    PWO window = BULLSHIT

    Clear enuff?
    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    !TR - I will try and dig some studies up to cite. I just never seem to spend enough CONSISTENT time on the board nowadays to follow through / follow up. I will try!
    Thanks Gbrice!

    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    hey TR no problem man! here is an article from Lyle MacDonalds website (bodyrecomposition) addressing pre workout vs post workout nutrition. i think its important to note that what is not said (reference to an anabolic window in which nutrient intake is critical) IMO is as important as what is said.

    Pre- vs. Post-Workout Nutrition – Q&A

    Question: If protein and other nutrients take time to be broken down and utilized, does it really matter whether or not you have a PWO meal, if you’ve had a large meal relatively soon before your training? In other words, can a Pre-workout meal be just as beneficial as a post-workout meal (if not better)? Isn’t it important to have AA in your blood stream when training? And if there is a designated time for digestion, wouldn’t the other nutrients effectively help recovery, even though they were consumed before hand?
    Answer: As usual this is going to be one of those longish ‘it depends’ kinds of answers and I’m probably going to go way off track in trying to answer it. As I discussed in The Protein Book, some recent research certainly suggested that pre-workout nutrients (carbs and protein, and I’ll assume the combination from here on out) were superior to post-workout nutrients in terms of promoting protein synthesis.
    Other research wasn’t so positive but it did look like having nutrients in the system during/immediately after workout might be better than waiting until afterwards. Some of it depended on the form of nutrients (especially protein consumed); in one study immediate pre-workout essential amino acids (EAA’s) were better than post-workout EAA’s. In another, a whole protein taken right before training wasn’t superior to post-workout; this may have been an issue of digestion time.
    I would note that protein synthesis isn’t the only goal here; maintaining high levels of training intensity during a workout is also key and pre- and/or during-workout nutrition can benefit folks there as well. A complication of that research was that most of it was done fasted, that is first thing in the morning, after folks hadn’t eaten for many hours. While that is relevant to some people (e.g. those who train first thing in the morning), many if not most trainees will have eaten something prior to the immediate pre-workout period. This complicates issues.
    And the general picture that seems to be developing is that if someone is in the ‘fed’ state, that is they have eaten within a few hours of their workout, pre-workout nutrients don’t seem to provide any major benefit. This mainly has to do with the slow digestion time of whole foods. A relatively ‘normal’ whole-food meal is still releasing nutrients (carbs and protein) into the bloodstream as much as 4-5 hours after you eat it.
    So if you’ve eaten within 2-3 hours of your workout, you already have nutrients in the system and probably don’t have much of a need to eat anything right beforehand. On the other hand, if it’s been 4 or more hours since your last meal (e.g. you eat lunch at 1pm and don’t get to the gym until 5-6pm), consuming something immediately before your workout is probably a good idea. Not only will you get some protein into the system that will be available during and right after training, a small amount of carbs will ensure that blood glucose is normalized so that you can have your best workout.
    Depending on what type of training you’re doing, you may also find that during and post-workout nutrition is also beneficial. The length of the workout, type of workout, etc. all go into this determination.
    So again, the answer is that it depends. Certainly there is some logic to having nutrients in the system during and right after training by consuming something right before workout. But this is complicated by whether or not you’ve eaten a whole-food meal in the few hours before your training. As above, if you’ve eaten within 2-3 hours, I wouldn’t bother with anything before your workout.
    If it’s been 3-4 hours since your last meal, I’d suggest at least experimenting with eating something maybe 30 minutes before workout (this could be a protein bar, a small carb/protein drink) to normalize blood glucose and get some amino acids into the system is probably a good idea.
    About 0.3-0.5 g/kg (0.14-0.23 g/lb) of both carbs and protein would be a good starting place. For a 180 lb lifter that’s 25-40 grams of carbs and protein combined about 30 minutes before your workout (to give the nutrients time to get into your system).
    I would mention that a small percentage of people seem to get rebound blood sugar issues from consuming rapidly digesting nutrients right before a workout; if you’re one of them you’ll want to wait until you start warming up to eat anything. Exercise blunts insulin response and waiting until your warm-up to start eating anything limits the possibility of a negative blood glucose response.
    I should also mention that one or two recent studies have intriguingly suggested that training in a completely fasted state might have benefits in terms of activation of some of the molecular markers involved in growth and adaptation to training. So far nobody has looked to see if this truly impacts on growth down the road so I’m remaining on the fence until more research becomes available. My gut hunch says that having nutrients in the system will be superior to not having them available but if research comes out against that, I’ll happily change my mind.
    Hope that answers your question.
    405,
    I understand the narrative. I've read other similar narratives before. But I wanted to take this out of the realm of simple narrative's, which quite often, no matter how respected the author is, are still matters of opinion, and get down to the nitty gritty of the actual clinical data, and finally put this debate to rest.

    Here's the other matter. I have posted clinical data supporting the anabolic window in a thread about six months ago, very detailed, very convincing, BUT, the data is several years old, and i'm thinking maybe there has been more recent data since 2003 that may supercede this data due to new and improved understand/information?

    My problem, like so many, is trying to seperate the BS data manufactured by the supplement industry and the data recorded by bona fide scientific studies. Hopefully the data that arises from my query will be sufficient to end this "endless" debate.
    Last edited by Times Roman; 09-10-2012 at 02:14 PM.

  36. #36
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
    --->>405<<--- is offline Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    Thanks Gbrice!



    405,
    I understand the narrative. I've read other similar narratives before. But I wanted to take this out of the realm of simple narrative's, which quite often, no matter how respected the author is, are still matters of opinion, and get down to the nitty gritty of the actual clinical data, and finally put this debate to rest.

    Here's the other matter. I have posted clinical data supporting the glycemic window in a thread about six months ago, very detailed, very convincing, BUT, the data is several years old, and i'm thinking maybe there has been more recent data since 2003 that may supercede this data due to new and improved understand/information?

    My problem, like so many, is trying to seperate the BS data manufactured by the supplement industry and the data recorded by bona fide scientific studies. Hopefully the data that arises from my query will be sufficient to end this "endless" debate.
    fair enuff

    not only do i respect the opinion of the author of the above narrative i have also read several of his books and successfully applied his knowledge to myself to achieve single digit body fat %.

    the anabolic window of opportunity is not enuff of an issue with me to apply myself any further.. i will be interested in seeing what u come up with!

    i would be interested in reading ur post from 6 months ag o if u can make it available..

  37. #37
    gbrice75's Avatar
    gbrice75 is offline AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    17,457
    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    I've read other similar narratives before. But I wanted to take this out of the realm of simple narrative's, which quite often, no matter how respected the author is, are still matters of opinion, and get down to the nitty gritty of the actual clinical data, and finally put this debate to rest.

    Hopefully the data that arises from my query will be sufficient to end this "endless" debate.
    TR - I don't have time to sift through it all now, but i'm pretty sure Martin has studies posted or at least referenced on Leangains with specific regards to the PWO window hype. I personally hate his site because it's laid out terribly, but there is some good, compelling info in there if you can find it.

  38. #38
    Times Roman's Avatar
    Times Roman is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Back from Afghanistan
    Posts
    27,383
    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    fair enuff

    not only do i respect the opinion of the author of the above narrative i have also read several of his books and successfully applied his knowledge to myself to achieve single digit body fat %.

    the anabolic window of opportunity is not enuff of an issue with me to apply myself any further.. i will be interested in seeing what u come up with!

    i would be interested in reading ur post from 6 months ag o if u can make it available..
    that's assuming i can even find it! 6 months of posting is a lot to look through. what i did is went to the back of the book where all the clinical data was, then i believe i looked it up on the internet, and posted several.

    this is the book that supports the anabolic wiindow position:
    http://www.amazon.com/Nutrient-Timin.../dp/1591201411

    the thing that made me respect the book was all the cites of clinical data, and not from a narrow few studies, but hundreds of them. And before I adopted their position, I actually looked the clinical data up on the internet and verified.

    But I am always a little skeptical with anything. Two things I see that couuld change my mind....

    1) More recent data that introduces knowledge that supercedes this data from around 2003
    2) Somehow determine that the clinical studies I reviewed were financed by the supplement industry, which taints their findings.

    If it is requested of me, i can put together a new thread, and I will cite various clinical studies that support the anabolic window position, and we can debate anew.

    Not trying to be difficult. But if you know what i do for a living, you'd know I'm very analytical, and have a strong desire to verify data.

  39. #39
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
    --->>405<<--- is offline Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,836
    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    TR - I don't have time to sift through it all now, but i'm pretty sure Martin has studies posted or at least referenced on Leangains with specific regards to the PWO window hype. I personally hate his site because it's laid out terribly, but there is some good, compelling info in there if you can find it.
    yeh i lookd thru there but like i told u before its ridiculous to navigate

  40. #40
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
    --->>405<<--- is offline Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,836
    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    that's assuming i can even find it! 6 months of posting is a lot to look through. what i did is went to the back of the book where all the clinical data was, then i believe i looked it up on the internet, and posted several.

    this is the book that supports the anabolic wiindow position:
    http://www.amazon.com/Nutrient-Timin.../dp/1591201411

    the thing that made me respect the book was all the cites of clinical data, and not from a narrow few studies, but hundreds of them. And before I adopted their position, I actually looked the clinical data up on the internet and verified.

    But I am always a little skeptical with anything. Two things I see that couuld change my mind....

    1) More recent data that introduces knowledge that supercedes this data from around 2003
    2) Somehow determine that the clinical studies I reviewed were financed by the supplement industry, which taints their findings.

    If it is requested of me, i can put together a new thread, and I will cite various clinical studies that support the anabolic window position, and we can debate anew.



    Not trying to be difficult. But if you know what i do for a living, you'd know I'm very analytical, and have a strong desire to verify data.


    from what i know of u TR, difficult doesnt even come to mind! u seem like a patient, peace keeping type of guy (which is a good quality IMO)

    what do u do for a living?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •