Eat before cardio

[Narkissos]

That's me nark..... Eat too much and have an unhealthy relationship with food....

Thanks for your comments

Don't get me wrong mate. I was not making a crack at you personally... as I know absolutely nothing about you.

I am simply summarizing my voluminous experience working with individuals/athletes.

You are entitled to disagree. That is the nature of message boards.

[gbrice75]

x3 for 'just do cardio'. The only people truly losing out are those who aren't doing anything.

To sum up my feelings on this: It's like I said before. I don't think an out of shape individual needs to worry about all of these 'minor' details. Starting doing some activity. Eat a reasonable diet. See results.

For a person who is very serious about bodybuilding goals, I still feel strongly that these 'minor' and/or 'overly complicated' practices will make minor differences. However when one achieves that level of fitness, a minor 'tweak' could be the difference between staying where he/she is, or reaching a new level.

[Narkissos]

Proeyen et. al. "Training in the fasted state improves glucose tolerance during fat-rich diet." J. Appl. Physiol. Sept 10, 2010

Abstract

Fat-rich energy-dense diet is an important cause of insulin resistance. Stimulation of fat turnover in muscle cells during dietary fat challenge may contribute to maintenance of insulin sensitivity. Exercise in the fasted state markedly stimulates energy provision via fat oxidation. Therefore, we investigated whether exercise training in the fasted state is more potent than exercise in the fed state to rescue whole-body glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity during a period of hyper-caloric fat-rich diet. Healthy male volunteers (18-25y) received a hyper-caloric (~+30% kcal/day) fat-rich (50% of kcal) diet for 6 weeks.

Part of the subjects performed endurance exercise training (4d/week) in the fasted state (F; n=10), whilst the others ingested carbohydrates before and during the training sessions (CHO; n=10). The control group did not train (CON; n=7). Body weight increased in CON (+3.0±0.8 kg) and CHO (+1.4±0.4 kg) (P<0.01), but not in F (+0.7±0.4 kg, P=0.13). Compared with CON, F but not CHO enhanced whole-body glucose tolerance and Matsuda insulin sensitivity index (P<0.05). Muscle GLUT4 protein content was increased in F (+28%) compared with both CHO (P=0.05) and CON (P<0.05).

Furthermore, only training in F elevated AMP-activated protein kinase α phosphorylation (+25%) as well as up-regulated fatty acid translocase/CD36 and carnitine palmitoyltransferase 1 mRNA levels compared with CON (~+30%, P<0.05). High-fat diet increased intramyocellular lipid but not diacylglycerol and ceramide contents, either in the absence or presence of training. This study for the first time shows that fasted training is more potent than fed training to facilitate adaptations in muscle and to improve whole-body glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity during hyper-caloric fat-rich diet.

[Narkissos]

Proeyen et. al. "Training in the fasted state improves glucose tolerance during fat-rich diet." J. Appl. Physiol. Sept 10, 2010

Abstract

Fat-rich energy-dense diet is an important cause of insulin resistance. Stimulation of fat turnover in muscle cells during dietary fat challenge may contribute to maintenance of insulin sensitivity. Exercise in the fasted state markedly stimulates energy provision via fat oxidation. Therefore, we investigated whether exercise training in the fasted state is more potent than exercise in the fed state to rescue whole-body glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity during a period of hyper-caloric fat-rich diet. Healthy male volunteers (18-25y) received a hyper-caloric (~+30% kcal/day) fat-rich (50% of kcal) diet for 6 weeks.

Part of the subjects performed endurance exercise training (4d/week) in the fasted state (F; n=10), whilst the others ingested carbohydrates before and during the training sessions (CHO; n=10). The control group did not train (CON; n=7). Body weight increased in CON (+3.0±0.8 kg) and CHO (+1.4±0.4 kg) (P<0.01), but not in F (+0.7±0.4 kg, P=0.13). Compared with CON, F but not CHO enhanced whole-body glucose tolerance and Matsuda insulin sensitivity index (P<0.05). Muscle GLUT4 protein content was increased in F (+28%) compared with both CHO (P=0.05) and CON (P<0.05).

Furthermore, only training in F elevated AMP-activated protein kinase α phosphorylation (+25%) as well as up-regulated fatty acid translocase/CD36 and carnitine palmitoyltransferase 1 mRNA levels compared with CON (~+30%, P<0.05). High-fat diet increased intramyocellular lipid but not diacylglycerol and ceramide contents, either in the absence or presence of training. This study for the first time shows that fasted training is more potent than fed training to facilitate adaptations in muscle and to improve whole-body glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity during hyper-caloric fat-rich diet.

Hypercaloric? Yes. Doesn't invalidate a hypocaloric application however.

Honestly, as much as we try to simplify nutrition discussions on the board, the study of nutrition really isn't at all simple. That's why noobs always get drawn back and forth between arguments and research... when they could simply be out there sprinting/jogging, eating clean, and looking/feeling great.

[Narkissos]

x3 for 'just do cardio'. The only people truly losing out are those who aren't doing anything.

To sum up my feelings on this: It's like I said before. I don't think an out of shape individual needs to worry about all of these 'minor' details. Starting doing some activity. Eat a reasonable diet. See results.

For a person who is very serious about bodybuilding goals, I still feel strongly that these 'minor' and/or 'overly complicated' practices will make minor differences. However when one achieves that level of fitness, a minor 'tweak' could be the difference between staying where he/she is, or reaching a new level.

Agreed.
And agreed.

[jimmyinkedup]

Good contributions Nark. Great to see you here and esp in this area.

[baseline_9]

Don't get me wrong mate. I was not making a crack at you personally... as I know absolutely nothing about you.

I am simply summarizing my voluminous experience working with individuals/athletes.

You are entitled to disagree. That is the nature of message boards.

Don't worry... I didn't think u were having a crack....

I wasn't joking when I said I had an unhealthy relationship with food tho lol

[Narkissos]

Good contributions Nark. Great to see you here and esp in this area.

Good to be here man.

My Fitness consultation business takes up 12-20 hours per day. So, I'm usually absolutely exhausted by the time I get in. I do subscribe to threads though, and read through my email when stuff from this section filters in.

Good to see the learning environment has been maintained by you guys.

Kudos.

[Narkissos]

Don't worry... I didn't think u were having a crack....

I wasn't joking when I said I had an unhealthy relationship with food tho lol

np mate. I'm out of the loop with regard to the forum personalities right now... so I didn't want to offend anyone accidentally.

[baseline_9]

np mate. I'm out of the loop with regard to the forum personalities right now... so I didn't want to offend anyone accidentally.

I just watched that video u posted... I couldn't get ur link to work but if it was the one that was on the BBC with regards to HIIT cardio increasing insulin sensitivity then that's the 1 I watched.....

Are we going to see more of u about on the board?

As far as your IF'ing experience I would love to hear/ read it.... Have u posted your experience anywhere..... I have actually seen u post on martins Facebook in the past too.

[RaginCajun]

I just watched that video u posted... I couldn't get ur link to work but if it was the one that was on the BBC with regards to HIIT cardio increasing insulin sensitivity then that's the 1 I watched.....

Are we going to see more of u about on the board?

As far as your IF'ing experience I would love to hear/ read it.... Have u posted your experience anywhere..... I have actually seen u post on martins Facebook in the past too.

same here

[gbrice75]

Bump. Great discussion yesterday. And Nark - looking fvcking sick in your new avy. I still hate you.

[bowldawg]

damn good information in this thread. Just finished reading Stubborn Fat Solution by Lyle McDonald and there was some pretty interesting information regarding HITT being detrimental to fat loss after a certain point. For me personally, fasted morning cardio LIC is much more effective for losong body fat in MY body so I guess everyone really needs to experiment on what works best for them. I know guys that are incredibly lean, but if I followed they're routine I'd be a total fat ass. Genitics suck!!

[gbrice75]

For me personally, fasted morning cardio LIC is much more effective for losong body fat in MY body so I guess everyone really needs to experiment on what works best for them. I know guys that are incredibly lean, but if I followed they're routine I'd be a total fat ass. Genitics suck!!

This post speaks volumes bro. 100% agreed.

[--->>405<<---]

good thread! i def prefer am fasted cardio moderate intensity..

did some this am and got the "phantom tingles" , anyone heard of this?

[Back In Black]

Interestingly, the OP hasn’t popped back in to clarify his question!

Some good points raised and I pretty much agree with all of them, depending on the individual and the current bf levels of said individual.Down to 12% or so, you just need to move, move, move.

I’ve tried cutting doing fasted and PWO LIC only. Also tried it doing a combination of HIIT and moderate intensity. But the best results I have had in terms of losing bf is doing fasted cardio as suggested by Lyle McDonald in his stubborn fat solution. That is :-

5 Mins warm up
5-10 mins of 10 second HIIT intervals
20-30 mins LIC
5 mins moderate intervals

Pre fasted cardio I would take caffeine, green tea, tyrosine and yohimbine HCL. Do this 2 mornings a week and also some PWO LIC for 20-30 mins and you are onto a winner.

I do find it interesting that those folk that lift in a fasted state (doing moderate intervals by lifting) refuse to do anything other thanLIC/moderate cardio. I know the mechanics are slightly different but this is still fasted interval training?!

Baseline alludes to the EPOC effect of HIIT and I agree. The risk of losing LBM from 45 mins fasted cardio is minimal compared to the benefit of the EPOC theory. Besides who does fasted cardio (or lifting) truly fasted? Most people will use BCAA’s at least meaning that, strictly speaking, you’re not really fasted.

I do believe that we overthink this whole thing though. Look at almost any track athlete, how many of those have a bf in excess of 10%? They don’t worry about LIC/moderate/HIIT. Their levels of fat are governed by eating clean and doing cardio (in conjunction with any lifting they do) They will do fasted and non fasted training.

Now, if the question relates to having a better cardio session for improved fitness, then I would always first, but about 2.5 hours pre cardio.

[gbrice75]

Interestingly, the OP hasn’t popped back in to clarify his question!

Some good points raised and I pretty much agree with all of them, depending on the individual and the current bf levels of said individual.Down to 12% or so, you just need to move, move, move.

I’ve tried cutting doing fasted and PWO LIC only. Also tried it doing a combination of HIIT and moderate intensity. But the best results I have had in terms of losing bf is doing fasted cardio as suggested by Lyle McDonald in his stubborn fat solution. That is :-

5 Mins warm up
5-10 mins of 10 second HIIT intervals
20-30 mins LIC
5 mins moderate intervals

Pre fasted cardio I would take caffeine, green tea, tyrosine and yohimbine HCL. Do this 2 mornings a week and also some PWO LIC for 20-30 mins and you are onto a winner.

I do find it interesting that those folk that lift in a fasted state (doing moderate intervals by lifting) refuse to do anything other thanLIC/moderate cardio. I know the mechanics are slightly different but this is still fasted interval training?!

Baseline alludes to the EPOC effect of HIIT and I agree. The risk of losing LBM from 45 mins fasted cardio is minimal compared to the benefit of the EPOC theory. Besides who does fasted cardio (or lifting) truly fasted? Most people will use BCAA’s at least meaning that, strictly speaking, you’re not really fasted.

I do believe that we overthink this whole thing though. Look at almost any track athlete, how many of those have a bf in excess of 10%? They don’t worry about LIC/moderate/HIIT. Their levels of fat are governed by eating clean and doing cardio (in conjunction with any lifting they do) They will do fasted and non fasted training.

Now, if the question relates to having a better cardio session for improved fitness, then I would always first, but about 2.5 hours pre cardio.

Great contribution Stem! Re: the bold - personally, I find the mechanics more than "slightly" different. That is unless I am doing a depletive style training, which would typically entail high reps, high overall volume, short rest periods and/or circuit training, creating a cardio-like environment.

[Back In Black]

I wasn't have a go, you understand, and I agree that the mechanics are slightly different but in my mind, the theory is still the same. It's still intervals and muscle is being broken down during the process (though not necessarily used for energy).

Unfortunately I get only 2 fasted morning cardio workouts and they are both on days where I lift later. TBH, I'm not sure I could handle more than 3 of them, together with lifting and PWO cardio. I know my limits now where I stop losing fat and start eating muscle. It only took me til I was 39!!!!!!!!

[gbrice75]

I wasn't have a go, you understand, and I agree that the mechanics are slightly different but in my mind, the theory is still the same. It's still intervals and muscle is being broken down during the process (though not necessarily used for energy).

Unfortunately I get only 2 fasted morning cardio workouts and they are both on days where I lift later. TBH, I'm not sure I could handle more than 3 of them, together with lifting and PWO cardio. I know my limits now where I stop losing fat and start eating muscle. It only took me til I was 39!!!!!!!!

Never thought you were brother.