Seperating FATS and CARBS

**Armdaddy** · 11-28-2012, 01:52 AM

So I have watched all of Milos Sarcev's videos on dieting and I feel I have learned a lot. However I would like some feedback and reassurance. In the video he suggests that fats and carbohydrates should be consumed separately -- arguing that your body's preferred use of energy is carbs and the left-over fat will be stored as just that -- fat. I should add that my goal in this diet is to drop body fat % before I ask questions.

So how important is it to separate fats and carbs?

Then another think Milos stresses is that carbs should be taken mostly when you know you will be needing and using the energy. But sometimes I come home after work at like 5:00 p.m. and I still have like 3-4 meals I need to get in if I am to meet all my macros. I am an ectomorph if I may add.

Can I get away with eating carbohydrates late at night when I will be inactive and still lose body fat %?

**krugerr** · 11-28-2012, 02:26 AM

Eating carbs at night has no bad effect at all, infact, some diets prefer this as your insulin sensitivity is lower.
Carb Back Loading - a good book to read regarding diet buddy. It really advocates eating the majority of your calories in the evening, stressing that all carbs are eaten after training. The book explains it much better than I could ever hope too.

Good luck
Krugerr

**MR-FQ320** · 11-28-2012, 03:48 AM

I regard Milos diet video to be an old school bulk type diet, if your wanting to cut bf there are better dieting techniques in my opinion.

**jimmyinkedup** · 11-28-2012, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by krugerr

Eating carbs at night has no bad effect at all, infact, some diets prefer this as your insulin sensitivity is lower.
Carb Back Loading - a good book to read regarding diet buddy. It really advocates eating the majority of your calories in the evening, stressing that all carbs are eaten after training. The book explains it much better than I could ever hope too.

Good luck
Krugerr

Good post.

OP - The only time i separate cabrs and fats is when im taking slin - which i am right now. Even then there are incidental fats consumed. Im fact the majority of the time I try to make sure i have pro/carb/healthy fats in every meal with the exception of my post workout shake.

**--->>405<<---** · 11-28-2012, 07:56 AM

personally IMO a good rule of thumb for separating carbs and fats comes into play over the course of the entire day. in an example of a carb cycle diet for instance.

say on day 1 u eat 50g carbs from veggies only, on this day it would be more acceptable to have fat cals higher than u would on a carb day. maybe 25-30% total cals from fat.

then on day 2 u are on a high carb day (say 350g), u would want to keep total fat grams a lot lower. less than 20% (prob shoot for 10-15% total cals from fat). IMO and in my experience this is where the difference is regarding keeping them separate and not so much between meals.

**kaptainkeezy04** · 11-28-2012, 08:08 AM

I think the argument is that carbs cause insulin spikes, and when your insulin is spiked, your body will store anything consumed. The truth is that unless you're about to walk on stage in a speedo, you don't need to worry about the very minor insulin spike your body gets when you ingest carbs. If you're injecting insulin on the other hand, i would stay far away from fats.

**Armdaddy** · 11-28-2012, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

personally IMO a good rule of thumb for separating carbs and fats comes into play over the course of the entire day. in an example of a carb cycle diet for instance.

say on day 1 u eat 50g carbs from veggies only, on this day it would be more acceptable to have fat cals higher than u would on a carb day. maybe 25-30% total cals from fat.

then on day 2 u are on a high carb day (say 350g), u would want to keep total fat grams a lot lower. less than 20% (prob shoot for 10-15% total cals from fat). IMO and in my experience this is where the difference is regarding keeping them separate and not so much between meals.

Interesting. Well I must admit this makes it about 10x easier for me to cook and eat my food. It was a real pain separating fats/carbs.

So what I am getting from all of these posts is that it doesn't matter when I eat my carbohydrates as long as my fat/carb ratio is on point throughout my day? I mean if I load carbs at night when I will be inactive and go to bed without using them.. won't they turn into fat? I'm already a skinny guy but i'm trying to drop body fat %, here and i'm finding it increasingly difficult to find the right diet. Every time I think i have found the answer, it gets shot down haha. So what is the trick to dropping the body fat relative to diet?

**--->>405<<---** · 11-28-2012, 09:38 AM

there are many ways to get lean. different things work for different people. this is why u get so many opinions. what works well for u may not work well for me. also the leaner u get the harder it gets to continue dropping body fat.modifications have to be made. from my experience it is becoming more apparent that its better to make small changes over a period of time. this will allow ur progress to continue. as opposed to going balls to the wall right off the rip.

when u throw everything at fat loss at one time it leaves u with less places to make adjustments when progress slows.

i am finding alternate day fasting as well as carbless periods are very effective.

as far as ur carbs go, i would recommend keeping them around ur workouts. pre-workout carbs IMO are superior to PWO. i would also suggest reducing/eliminating carbs on days where u dont lift + doing good amts of cardio on those days. (think twice a day sessions)..

**krugerr** · 11-28-2012, 09:51 AM

ADF was going to be my next step once this plateaus. Or possibly a 5/2 (days) split fast.

As 405 said, it is quite specific once you get to the lower bf ranges. Anything down to about 15% should be easy with a basic controlled diet and a bit of cardio.

**gbrice75** · 11-28-2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by krugerr

Eating carbs at night has no bad effect at all

Blanket statement much? I'm not a fan of absolutes. IMO this boils down to the individuals goals, and more importantly, the individual him/herself. When I'm cutting, I do not have carbs in my bedtime meal... in fact I don't have carbs in my last few meals. I still believe in nutrient timing. It's what carb cycling is essentially based on. If nutrient timing had no place, carb cycling diets would be next to useless - yet they are an extremely popular (and potent) dieting technique, and have been for a long time.

Re: separating fats/carbs - I don't completely separate them, I believe in a well balanced macro profile most of the time, however my general rule of thumb, particularly when cutting, is if one is moderate, the other should be low.

Originally Posted by krugerr

As 405 said, it is quite specific once you get to the lower bf ranges. Anything down to about 15% should be easy with a basic controlled diet and a bit of cardio.

THIS I do agree with. People with relatively high bodyfat (i'd make the argument that this is higher than 15% for males though) can simplify things and still see results... i.e. calorie restriction, cardio, weight training, etc. without MUCH detail to some of these other 'techniques'. When looking to get shredded, nutrient timing et al. comes much more into play.

**krugerr** · 11-28-2012, 10:54 AM

Yea, I'll agree my statement was a little absolute lol. I meant it in that I don't think carbs in your evening meal will have a detrimental effect on your physique. It does of course depend on the diet you're aiming for, as you said, carb cycling.

I think 15% should be achievable through the more basic modifications, I came to this just through my readings on the forums. Although I don't have first hand experience at this as I am still in my cutting phase! I'll defer to you for this one!

**gbrice75** · 11-28-2012, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by krugerr

Yea, I'll agree my statement was a little absolute lol. I meant it in that I don't think carbs in your evening meal will have a detrimental effect on your physique. It does of course depend on the diet you're aiming for, as you said, carb cycling.

I think 15% should be achievable through the more basic modifications, I came to this just through my readings on the forums. Although I don't have first hand experience at this as I am still in my cutting phase! I'll defer to you for this one!

"SHOULD" being the operative word, lol!

**Armdaddy** · 11-28-2012, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Blanket statement much? I'm not a fan of absolutes. IMO this boils down to the individuals goals, and more importantly, the individual him/herself. When I'm cutting, I do not have carbs in my bedtime meal... in fact I don't have carbs in my last few meals. I still believe in nutrient timing. It's what carb cycling is essentially based on. If nutrient timing had no place, carb cycling diets would be next to useless - yet they are an extremely popular (and potent) dieting technique, and have been for a long time.

Re: separating fats/carbs - I don't completely separate them, I believe in a well balanced macro profile most of the time, however my general rule of thumb, particularly when cutting, is if one is moderate, the other should be low.

THIS I do agree with. People with relatively high bodyfat (i'd make the argument that this is higher than 15% for males though) can simplify things and still see results... i.e. calorie restriction, cardio, weight training, etc. without MUCH detail to some of these other 'techniques'. When looking to get shredded, nutrient timing et al. comes much more into play.

Hey thank you so much for your input, this post really helped me out. Separating the fats and carbs every meal is going to make me pull my hair out, I think I will just make sure I have a good balance throughout my day as you suggested. I will stick to carbs in the mornings always, and then PRE and POST workout. On my days off from training I will just eat carbs in the mornings and maybe some before work or any demanding activity I might do. I know this is very vague but do you think I am on the right track? Also I should add that I work out 3-4 days a week so I would have quite a sum of low-carb days.

**gbrice75** · 11-28-2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Armdaddy

Hey thank you so much for your input, this post really helped me out. Separating the fats and carbs every meal is going to make me pull my hair out, I think I will just make sure I have a good balance throughout my day as you suggested.

Yep. Your main concern should be overall calories - make sure that's in check and you should be able to reach your goals. Once you know that's on track, you can start manipulating smaller things (such as nutrient timing) to really dial in to a sweet spot. Calories in/out is the biggest factor, but not the only one.

Originally Posted by Armdaddy

I will stick to carbs in the mornings always, and then PRE and POST workout.

Pretty much what I do when cutting, although my workouts are first thing in the morning - so I'll have pre/pwo (meals 1 and 2) with carbs, and a PPWO (meal 3) with carbs as well, then that's it for the day. 3-4 more meals left with trace carbs.

Originally Posted by Armdaddy

On my days off from training I will just eat carbs in the mornings and maybe some before work or any demanding activity I might do. I know this is very vague but do you think I am on the right track? Also I should add that I work out 3-4 days a week so I would have quite a sum of low-carb days.

Won't really know until you try it out for a few weeks. Keep it consistent so you can make changes and know what is/isn't working. Personally, i'm a fan of carb cycling full on/off days. I'd have several consecutive days without any carbs followed by a refeed day, then a few consecutive moderate days. I am assuming your primary focus right now is fat loss?

**jimmyinkedup** · 11-28-2012, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Blanket statement much? I'm not a fan of absolutes. IMO this boils down to the individuals goals, and more importantly, the individual him/herself. When I'm cutting, I do not have carbs in my bedtime meal... in fact I don't have carbs in my last few meals. I still believe in nutrient timing. It's what carb cycling is essentially based on. If nutrient timing had no place, carb cycling diets would be next to useless - yet they are an extremely popular (and potent) dieting technique, and have been for a long time.

Re: separating fats/carbs - I don't completely separate them, I believe in a well balanced macro profile most of the time, however my general rule of thumb, particularly when cutting, is if one is moderate, the other should be low.

THIS I do agree with. People with relatively high bodyfat (i'd make the argument that this is higher than 15% for males though) can simplify things and still see results... i.e. calorie restriction, cardio, weight training, etc. without MUCH detail to some of these other 'techniques'. When looking to get shredded, nutrient timing et al. comes much more into play.

Carb cycling has nothing to do with nutrient timing G .....
Macro manipulation - yes.
Nutrient timing is an inaccurate stretch imo ....

**Armdaddy** · 11-28-2012, 11:36 AM

Yes my primary focus right now is fat loss. So you would have days where you don't have any carbs, not even in the mornings or anything? Since my split looks like this

mon - on
tues- off
wed- on
thurs off
fri - on
sat - off
sun - off

would you recommend having 0 cabrs sat and sunday and then "refeeding" mondays?

Also, can you go into a little bit of detail with the term "refeeding" I have a very vague understanding of it.

**gbrice75** · 11-28-2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Carb cycling has nothing to do with nutrient timing G .....
Macro manipulation - yes.
Nutrient timing is an inaccurate stretch imo ....

Meh... I'd prefer not to derail this thread with our ongoing debate (not saying that's your intention either btw), although I suppose it loosely fits the topic. I just don't want to turn it into a 'nutrient timing - yay or nay thread'. Suffice it to say I feel nutrient timing and macro manipulation go hand in hand... we manipulate macros based on what? Time. Or rather, opportune times.

**jimmyinkedup** · 11-28-2012, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Meh... I'd prefer not to derail this thread with our ongoing debate (not saying that's your intention either btw), although I suppose it loosely fits the topic. I just don't want to turn it into a 'nutrient timing - yay or nay thread'. Suffice it to say I feel nutrient timing and macro manipulation go hand in hand... we manipulate macros based on what? Time. Or rather, opportune times.

LOL agreed. You now how long it can go on if you and I get into that debate brother. Suffice it to say I always respect what you have to say G and learn a lot from it brother.

**gbrice75** · 11-28-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

LOL agreed. You now how long it can go on if you and I get into that debate brother. Suffice it to say I always respect what you have to say G and learn a lot from it brother.

Likewise my friend! Gotta hit you with a PM in a few anyway.

**jimmyinkedup** · 11-28-2012, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Likewise my friend! Gotta hit you with a PM in a few anyway.

Always room in the inbox for a message from you G !

**--->>405<<---** · 11-28-2012, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Carb cycling has nothing to do with nutrient timing G .....
Macro manipulation - yes.
Nutrient timing is an inaccurate stretch imo ....

personally i agree with GB and would like to hear ur logic on how cycling carbs such as: training day = carbs, non-training day = no carbs does not have to do with nutrient timing. considering a carb is a macronutrient and ur timing when u eat them based on activity. now it is daily timing and not necessarily (but can be) hourly timing, but timing nonetheless..??

**jimmyinkedup** · 11-28-2012, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

personally i agree with GB and would like to hear ur logic on how cycling carbs such as: training day = carbs, non-training day = no carbs does not have to do with nutrient timing. considering a carb is a macronutrient and ur timing when u eat them based on activity. now it is daily timing and not necessarily (but can be) hourly timing, but timing nonetheless..??

Ultimate Diet 2.0 - Lyle McDonald
Its about caloric surplus and deficits more than anything else. Macro manipulation to create glycogen depletion play a part as well.
Nutrient timing is the thought that taking nutrient in around certain periods of activity or inactivity can make an overall difference ion body composition. ie: hi gi carbs post work out , ie: no carbs after 2pm etc ... (which btw i think is BS)
I dont view them as the same.
You can eat all 4000 cals from 8-2 ...you can spread them out from 8 - midnight - it doesnt matter 4000 cals = 4000cals. If you look big picture ....total cals longer term ...the same caloric deficit created using carb cycling will result in the same caloric deficit using traditional cut which results ultimately in the same fat lost. You just cant trick the body. I think you can use a carb cycle to prime the body to foster a state of anabolism WHEN caloric intake is then abruptly and consistently increased longer term. But for fat loss I think its a fad that overall - as i said , if you look at long term caloric intakes - it would all work out the same.

**--->>405<<---** · 11-28-2012, 03:19 PM

well i can say speaking for myself i ran a straight low carb diet at 2150cals and my progress stopped at prob 16%bf. i implemented a carb cycle with roughly the same weekly cals and the fat loss resumed. i think where the disagreement is would be the definition of "nutrient timing" and "macro-nutrient manipulation". to me manipulating the ingestion of carbs to specific days and/or times of day is nutrient timing.

i will say also that i am currently on a totally difft diet altogether where i only eat carbs at specific times and im having great results. my total cals on training days are around 3400-3500 and non-training days 1000-1200 (a combined 4400-4700cals over 2 days which averages to 2200-2350cals per day) and im leaner than ive ever been!

to me this is the epitome of nutrient timing. the results are speaking for themselves. i will be posting some pics later down the road when they are a bit more substantial.

**gbrice75** · 11-28-2012, 03:24 PM

Let the derailment ensue.... lol

**--->>405<<---** · 11-28-2012, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Let the derailment ensue.... lol

LOL.. yeh it happens! although technically i think it falls under the topic just not the title.. after all, separating carbs and fats would be a nutrient timing issue!

**Armdaddy** · 11-29-2012, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Let the derailment ensue.... lol

Haha got a laugh out of this one. On a serious note, I got a lot of good info through your guys posts and I think I will look a little more into carb loading before I decide exactly how I want to tackle my problem.

**gbrice75** · 11-30-2012, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Armdaddy

Haha got a laugh out of this one. On a serious note, I got a lot of good info through your guys posts and I think I will look a little more into carb loading before I decide exactly how I want to tackle my problem.

Glad to hear it! Debates are great because they allow others to really listen and learn, absorb everything, and then decide what makes the most sense for them to try for themselves.