"Body Transformation" vs. Bulk / Cut

I'm the quintessential ecto / hard gainer/ skinny-fat, etc. type. My strategy has always been to try and bulk/add muscle and then cut/ lean up. It seems like it's more like an endless cycle of me being able to add strength and muscle, but only with a significant addition of extra fat, or being able to lose fat but lose muscle and strength at the same time. Over the years, the actual "transformation" I've experienced vs. the amount of work/diet I've put in has been lackluster at best. This is why I turned to AAS in the first place.

In preparation for my latest cycle I've been doing interval cardio 40 min. 6x/wk. with a very good / clean diet and lifting 4x/wk. Details and stats are here:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...EN-A-Diary-Log

Still I feel like I'm just on the rollercoaster of skinny/fat. I still have an inch or so of fat covering my mid-section, even though I've lost 20 Lbs. in 4 months, and am weak as can be. I'm literally back to barely being able to bench 135, and my jeans feel like they're ready to fall off. The best I have ever been able to attain is after my last cycle a year ago (which is my Avatar.) I want to get leaner before this cycle kicks in, but now I look like I've never touched a stack of weights in my life.

I'm hoping my new cycle will enable me to gain muscle, without much/any fat, and ideally losing fat. BUT, I'm now reading things that say "Transformation" is next to impossible, even for guys with better genes than mine. Strength gains and muscle are great, but not if I put on 20 lbs. of fat along with it. Am I just basically screwed to be ordinary forever??

You run more than you lift, that might explain the skinny fat. No one is screwed to be ordinary forever, obviously something youre doing isn't working properly, whether it be your training or your eating. So you might just need a new plan of attack?
Id start with saying youre doing excessive cardio, more cardio than lifting , I don't see why you would want to do that ?
How lean are you now? And when do you plan on starting your next cycle.

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

I'm the quintessential ecto / hard gainer/ skinny-fat, etc. type. My strategy has always been to try and bulk/add muscle and then cut/ lean up. It seems like it's more like an endless cycle of me being able to add strength and muscle, but only with a significant addition of extra fat, or being able to lose fat but lose muscle and strength at the same time. Over the years, the actual "transformation" I've experienced vs. the amount of work/diet I've put in has been lackluster at best. This is why I turned to AAS in the first place.

In preparation for my latest cycle I've been doing interval cardio 40 min. 6x/wk. with a very good / clean diet and lifting 4x/wk. Details and stats are here:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...EN-A-Diary-Log

Still I feel like I'm just on the rollercoaster of skinny/fat. I still have an inch or so of fat covering my mid-section, even though I've lost 20 Lbs. in 4 months, and am weak as can be. I'm literally back to barely being able to bench 135, and my jeans feel like they're ready to fall off. The best I have ever been able to attain is after my last cycle a year ago (which is my Avatar.) I want to get leaner before this cycle kicks in, but now I look like I've never touched a stack of weights in my life.

I'm hoping my new cycle will enable me to gain muscle, without much/any fat, and ideally losing fat. BUT, I'm now reading things that say "Transformation" is next to impossible, even for guys with better genes than mine. Strength gains and muscle are great, but not if I put on 20 lbs. of fat along with it. Am I just basically screwed to be ordinary forever??

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Read some books on bulking mate, maybe your carb sensitive, maybe look into a carb cycling diet for bulking.
The body is a complex machine, you have to find what will work best for you, just increasing calories while bulking isnt the best approach for some people. Eating more at particular times could maybe best for you. But I don't know you need to figure that out yourself.

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

I'm the quintessential ecto / hard gainer/ skinny-fat, etc. type. My strategy has always been to try and bulk/add muscle and then cut/ lean up. It seems like it's more like an endless cycle of me being able to add strength and muscle, but only with a significant addition of extra fat, or being able to lose fat but lose muscle and strength at the same time. Over the years, the actual "transformation" I've experienced vs. the amount of work/diet I've put in has been lackluster at best. This is why I turned to AAS in the first place.

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You and I have touched on this in the past. We're similar in many ways. The perpetual 'bulk/cut' strategy will never work for guys like us. NEVER.

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

Still I feel like I'm just on the rollercoaster of skinny/fat.

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With bulking and cutting, you don't just "feel" like you're on that rollercoaster; you ARE on it.

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

I still have an inch or so of fat covering my mid-section, even though I've lost 20 Lbs. in 4 months, and am weak as can be. I'm literally back to barely being able to bench 135, and my jeans feel like they're ready to fall off. The best I have ever been able to attain is after my last cycle a year ago (which is my Avatar.) I want to get leaner before this cycle kicks in, but now I look like I've never touched a stack of weights in my life.

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Have you had bloodwork done (when off cycle) to test for low T and other potential hormone-related issues?

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

I'm hoping my new cycle will enable me to gain muscle, without much/any fat, and ideally losing fat. BUT, I'm now reading things that say "Transformation" is next to impossible, even for guys with better genes than mine. Strength gains and muscle are great, but not if I put on 20 lbs. of fat along with it.

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Where are you reading this? Are the sources credible?

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

Am I just basically screwed to be ordinary forever??

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Depends on what you consider 'screwed', and 'ordinary'. Drugs aside, we're all 'screwed' by our genetic limitations. For some people, that hardly seems like being screwed. For guys like you - well let's just say I empathize completely. I've recently started to come to terms with the fact that I will never have the look I want... my body is simply not designed that way (genetics). All we can do is make the absolute best of what we've been given to work with, and that hardly has to be 'ordinary'. As much as I'm not happy with my physique, when I look around, I almost always have a better body than every guy in day to day life, including younger guys in their 20's. To add to that, I'm hardly 'in shape' right now. Once I'm really lean, I'll look far from ordinary. Will it be the look I want? No. But it'll be a helluva lot better than 99% of people around me, and that's something to be proud of.

Another thing you (and I/we all) have to remember is how we look to the 'untrained' eye. Of course it's easy for people like us to spot imperfections, flaws, things we think should look better (on our own and other's physiques) - we live and breath this shit. To the average everyday individual, we look WAY better than ordinary. For instance, I can't tell you how many times I've been complimented on my arms... by guys and girls alike, all ages. I look in the mirror, pics, etc. and scratch my head. I just don't get it. I don't see what they see - but there must be SOMETHING to it. They can't all be wrong. We're just used to seeing ourselves, and picking ourselves apart. You need to pick a goal ('lean bulk' or shred), dial it in, and stick with it 100% for an appreciable length of time (at least 3 months) to see what you can really do.

I have just reduced my cardio to 30 min. after each workout, and the intensity of my cardio will go down as well as my cycle ramps up. This is combined with the slight change in ratio's/calories and heavier lifting to accommodate my cycle.

I do the cardio because if I cut into my diet any more, I start getting tired, weak, and losing strength and muscle (even more than I am.) If I don't do cardio, my body just adapts to whatever cutting diet I put it on.

Guessing I'm (realistically) at 16-18%.
My new cycle has started. I started test a few days ago, and I pin my first Tren tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by 951thompson

look into a carb cycling diet for bulking.

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Never thought of carb cycling for bulking, I will search around.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

You and I have touched on this in the past. We're similar in many ways. The perpetual 'bulk/cut' strategy will never work for guys like us. NEVER.

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Was hoping you'd chime in GB. And, glad to know. I feel like the "re-composition" idea seems to be my personal best option as well.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

With bulking and cutting, you don't just "feel" like you're on that rollercoaster; you ARE on it.

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Good point.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Have you had bloodwork done (when off cycle) to test for low T and other potential hormone-related issues?

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I had a blood test a little over a year ago before my first "real" tren cycle. There was nothing out of ordinary for a 43 year old guy. I do feel less energy, tired, libido over the past few years, but I attribute it to not being 30-something anymore.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Where are you reading this? Are the sources credible?

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In a Book. ... and stuff... LOL another good point. As long as it's possible, I feel AAS assisted "recomposition" is my best strategy.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Depends on what you consider 'screwed', and 'ordinary'. Drugs aside, we're all 'screwed' by our genetic limitations. For some people, that hardly seems like being screwed. For guys like you - well let's just say I empathize completely. I've recently started to come to terms with the fact that I will never have the look I want... my body is simply not designed that way (genetics). All we can do is make the absolute best of what we've been given to work with, and that hardly has to be 'ordinary'. As much as I'm not happy with my physique, when I look around, I almost always have a better body than every guy in day to day life, including younger guys in their 20's. To add to that, I'm hardly 'in shape' right now. Once I'm really lean, I'll look far from ordinary. Will it be the look I want? No. But it'll be a helluva lot better than 99% of people around me, and that's something to be proud of.
Another thing you (and I/we all) have to remember is how we look to the 'untrained' eye. Of course it's easy for people like us to spot imperfections, flaws, things we think should look better (on our own and other's physiques) - we live and breath this shit. To the average everyday individual, we look WAY better than ordinary. For instance, I can't tell you how many times I've been complimented on my arms... by guys and girls alike, all ages. I look in the mirror, pics, etc. and scratch my head. I just don't get it. I don't see what they see - but there must be SOMETHING to it. They can't all be wrong. We're just used to seeing ourselves, and picking ourselves apart.

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Yeah, let's put it in context... I'm in better shape now than most 20-something's I know, and look the best I ever have, so there's that. As you said, we've spoken about it before. I just want to "look" like I work out.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

You need to pick a goal ('lean bulk' or shred), dial it in, and stick with it 100% for an appreciable length of time (at least 3 months) to see what you can really do.

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Well then I'm doing what I need to do. I've been cutting for 3 + months. Now starting a lean bulk / AAS cycle.

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Originally Posted by cj111

How lean are you now? And when do you plan on starting your next cycle.

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Guessing I'm (realistically) at 16-18%.
My new cycle has started. I started test a few days ago, and I pin my first Tren tomorrow.P.S., extensive details and pictures are in my log post:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...EN-A-Diary-Log

You said you was interested in the UD 2.0 why don't you try bulking on it, Lyle in the book sets out a plan for people looking to bulk on it.it's a recomp diet. You have the book, check it out.

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Originally Posted by 951thompson

You said you was interesting in the UD 2.0 why don't you try bulking on it, Lyle in the book sets out a plan for people looking to bulk on it.it's a recomp diet. You have the book, check it out.

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Because I'm looking at all the agony you're in doing it! LOL! J.K.
Well, It might have something to do with Cross-Fit, and that I have not read the book other than skimming yet, so I'm sure I'm missing a lot. I was involved with total body style workouts before (cross-fit) and I've found that while they're great for overall fitness, I respond better to more traditional bodypart per day routines as far as adding muscle, etc. which is my goal beyond just good fitness.
Not saying I WON'T do it, but with my current cycle etc., I don't want to change horses mid-stream.

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

Because I'm looking at all the agony you're in doing it! LOL! J.K.
Well, It might have something to do with Cross-Fit, and that I have not read the book other than skimming yet, so I'm sure I'm missing a lot. I was involved with total body style workouts before (cross-fit) and I've found that while they're great for overall fitness, I respond better to more traditional bodypart per day routines as far as adding muscle, etc. which is my goal beyond just good fitness.
Not saying I WON'T do it, but with my current cycle etc., I don't want to change horses mid-stream.

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Fair do, just a suggestion :)

Some good info at Lyle McDonalds website, he has bulking plans you could read, bodyrecompsion dot com

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

I had a blood test a little over a year ago before my first "real" tren cycle. There was nothing out of ordinary for a 43 year old guy. I do feel less energy, tired, libido over the past few years, but I attribute it to not being 30-something anymore.

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Age, in and of itself, has no bearing on well-being. Bodily/metabolic processes becoming less efficient over time (i.e. as we continue to age) do. So you can't just say "I'm getting older, this is what happens". You have to ask yourself WHAT is happening as you get older... and take measures to counter the negatives.

Re: nothing being "out of the ordinary" - that tells me labs showed your hormone levels to be within a 'normal' range. Normal doesn't equate to 'optimal'. Anything less than optimal, and you're shortchanging yourself, IMO. Time to go get tested again! ;)

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

In a Book. ... and stuff... LOL another good point. As long as it's possible, I feel AAS assisted "recomposition" is my best strategy.

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Probably. But the fundamental mechanics behind any cycle are what makes it work for you. AAS alone aren't magic. How many people have we seen on here run cycles and still look like shit? I'm not saying that's you; I'm just saying don't use AAS as your crutch. Use them to enhance an already optimized fully encompassed regimen.

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

Yeah, let's put it in context... I'm in better shape now than most 20-something's I know, and look the best I ever have, so there's that. As you said, we've spoken about it before. I just want to "look" like I work out.

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lol, me too brother. ;)

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Normal doesn't equate to 'optimal'.

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Another good observation... Let me see if I can find the thread with my results...

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

Probably. But the fundamental mechanics behind any cycle are what makes it work for you. AAS alone aren't magic. How many people have we seen on here run cycles and still look like shit? I'm not saying that's you; I'm just saying don't use AAS as your crutch. Use them to enhance an already optimi*ed fully encompassed regimen.

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I should have phrased it differently... By "asissted" I mean what you're saying. They definitely help, and my results with them have been far more than supplements, etc. but yeah, if diet rest and lifting aren't optimal, AAS will do little to nothing positive. I will say I'm super glad I came here and did some serious research before I really got serious about AAS.
I guess my reason behind this post was to re-affirm my belief that "recomp" is workable, and a good option, because "bulk/cut" doesn't seem to work for me. AAS simply help shorten the result time.

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Originally Posted by oatmeal69

I guess my reason behind this post was to re-affirm my belief that "recomp" is workable, and a good option, because "bulk/cut" doesn't seem to work for me. AAS simply help shorten the result time.

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Check out my Ask GB Anything thread - similar conversation going on right now between me and Goodluck (linked below for your convenience):

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...39#post6473839

Very cool.