Carnitine is Enemy in Red Meat, Not Fat

[Quester]

Study: L-carnitine in red meat, not fats, causes heart disease

Scientists say they have found that fats and cholesterol are not the main reason why red meat increases susceptibility to heart disease. According to scientists, a substance in red meat called L-carnitine is linked to the risk of heart disease.
In the study published online in the journal Nature on April 7, 2013, titled: "Intestinal microbiota metabolism of L-carnitine, a nutrient in red meat, promotes atherosclerosis," the researchers led by Dr. Stanely Hazen, head of preventive cardiology and chairman of the department of cellular and molecular medicine at the Lerner Research Institute of the Cleveland Clinic, found that the high incidence of heart disease among red meat eaters may be due to a relatively obscure substance called L-carnitine that helps transport fatty acids into the cell's mitochondria where energy is produced.
Although previous studies have linked heart disease with consumption of red meat, it remained uncertain which component of red meat was causing the damage. Researchers had suspected saturated fats and sodium in meat but the evidence was not conclusive. Hazen, investigating the possibly that an unsuspected substance was exposing red meat eaters to risk of cardiovascular disease, soon identified L-carnitine found in high levels in red meat, and a popular additive in energy drinks and supplements.
The discovery followed a previous study Hazen published in the journal Nature that identified a compound in the blood called trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO) which seemed to be a good predictor of the risk of heart disease. The substance was also found to be linked to heart disease in mice. TMAO is formed when intestinal bacteria breaks down certain substances such as the dietary fat choline in the gut.
Hazen suspected that intestinal gut may also be converting L-carnitine in red meat to TMAO. Choline has a chemical structure similar to L-carnatine.
Hazen and his Ph.D student Robert Koeth, conducted a study in which they fed steak to volunteers, mostly "young, hungry students," who were happy to be used as guinea pigs in the study.
Blood tests administered on the students after a meal of steak found a rise in TMAO levels showing that something in the meat was being converted into TMAO. Further investigation showed that L-carnitine was indeed being converted into TMAO. The researchers were also able to demonstrate that intestinal gut was responsible for converting L-carnitine in TMAO. After giving the meat eaters antibiotics that wiped out their gut bacteria they found that they did not have TMAO in their blood.
According to Nature, the researchers also reported that mice fed a diet supplemented with L-carnitine had much higher levels of TMAO than control animals and that the animals had twice the incidence of atherosclerosis compared to control animals.
The authors reported that the intestine of mice fed L-carnitine was able to adapt by becoming enriched with bacteria that convert L-carnatine to TMAO. The study also found that people who eat a lot of red meat are more efficient at converting L-carnitine to TMAO and that limiting consumption of L-carnitine rich food could lead to reduced ability to convert L-carnitine to TMAO.
Nature reports the study found that vegetarians and vegans have lower levels of bacteria that convert L-carnitine to TMAO.
The study has implications for the use of L-carnatine as an additive in energy drinks. It also has implications for the use of L-carnitine capsules as a supplement used by body builders.
According to The New York Times, the study could also have implications for the treatment of heart disease. Doctors may be prescribing antibiotics that target gut bacteria which produce TMAO from L-carnitine to reduce the risk of strokes, heart attacks and atherosclerosis in high-risk individuals.
The study noted that more research is needed to determine safe levels of L-carnitine in the diet. A portion of red meat may contain up to about 94mg of L-carnitine, while cheese and milk contain only about 3mg per serving.
Nutritionists say that in spite of the study linking L-carnitine and gut microbes to cardiovascular disease, the nutrient plays a vital role in helping the body to convert fat to energy. Thus, rather than recommend abstinence, experts recommend limiting intake of red meat.
According to nutritionists, red meat contributes valuable nutrients such as zinc, iron, B vitamins and vitamin D.
Although biochemists do not yet understand how TMAO causes atherosclerosis, Hazen explains that it is known that long-term ingestion of L-carnitine changes the way the body metabolizes cholesterol, causing more of it to be deposited on artery walls and less being eliminated.


Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/articl...#ixzz2Q0xGSnEX

[Quester]

Thoughts?

I heard this on the News the other night and now it is all over the place. Big changes expected...

[cj111]

No changes in my life, bring on the steak!

[--->>405<<---]

Interesting bit of irony considering L Carnitine is given to heart patients. Another interesting bit is the fact that i used injectable LCarnitine for 4 months or so until i developed weird heart beat skipping and decided to quit using it. I also was on peptides, i quit them as well.

I havent had a skipped heart beat since and its been prob 3 weeks ..

[zaggahamma]

Interesting bit of irony considering L Carnitine is given to heart patients. Another interesting bit is the fact that i used injectable LCarnitine for 4 months or so until i developed weird heart beat skipping and decided to quit using it. I also was on peptides, i quit them as well.

I havent had a skipped heart beat since and its been prob 3 weeks ..

yeh the reading i'm doing on it shows carnitine as an aid for health rather than the opposite...our body's make it ...some more than others like anything else...

would be real interesting if they had all that wrong

[austinite]

Does anyone have access to nature.com? The actual study details are there. But none of these show how many people participated, and they are just describing the effects found, no numbers/results at all. They forget to mention that L-Carnitine
prevents atherosclerotic disease.

94mg of L-Carnitine per serving? I guess I'm going to die tonight considering I take 3 to 5 thousand milligrams daily. Oh, by the way... don't eat certain fish either as they also contain trimethylamine N-oxide.

Not bunking this study, but I'm so tempted to pay the $32 to access the full study.

[Patryn]

our body's make it

The idea here is that our bodies produce enough for us to function efficiently. All of the excess which we are consuming is harmful.

[zaggahamma]

The idea here is that our bodies produce enough for us to function efficiently. All of the excess which we are consuming is harmful.

point taken

and i see cheese/milk has some as well

moderation moderation

[austinite]

Side Effects of Vitamin C:

Anemia
Bleeding gums
Decreased ability to fight infection
Decreased wound-healing rate
Dry and splitting hair
Easy bruising
Gingivitis (inflammation of the gums)
Nosebleeds
Possible weight gain because of slowed metabolism
Rough, dry, scaly skin
Swollen and painful joints
Weakened tooth enamel

[austinite]

The idea here is that our bodies produce enough for us to function efficiently. All of the excess which we are consuming is harmful.

That doesn't mean anything. We go to extreme doses with everything that our body produces enough of everyday. You can even LITERALLY breath too much.

[Patryn]

http://examine.com/blog/media-sensat...or-your-heart/

...Overall, what can we conclude from this study?

-There is a correlation between higher TMAO in serum and cardiovascular disease risk in humans.
-There appears to be microbial fermentation of dietary carnitine into TMAO in non-vegetarian humans.
-TMAO in serum from dietary carnitine causes atherosclerosis in APoE-/- mice.

What cannot be concluded from this study?

-TMAO in humans causes heart disease. ApoE-/- mice are used since it is easy to research pro-atherogenic cholesterol metabolism, but these are mice with a specific genetic fault. This research would have to be replicated in regular mice (and then in humans). Additionally, the human correlational research does suggest there is a link but cannot state that it is a causative link, and past research on Choline does suggest that TMAO is fairly rapidly excreted via the kidneys (suggesting some effects that are differential dependent on species).
-Carnitine causes heart disease, as the link between TMAO and heart disease is not fully established in humans.
-TMAO is bad. To nip this in the bud, most molecules have good and bad associated with them (good example: Cortisol) and it would be improper to conclude that TMAO must be avoided at all cost. To reiterate as well, the correlation between TMAO and cardiovascular disease could very well be a biomarker of some other lifestyle habits...

[austinite]

Yeah. Can't conclude anything. Regardless, until we see/read the actual study, all these internet articles are simply opinions. Not facts. There is a correlation between higher levels/intake of "Insert 100 thousand items here" and heart disease.

[DigitalGorilla]

I just posted the same stuff....its all over the news in NY.................L-Carnitine, Nutrient In Red Meat, Linked With Heart Disease

[Patryn]

Red Meat and TMAO: Cause for Concern, or Another Red Herring?

[zaggahamma]

Red Meat and TMAO: Cause for Concern, or Another Red Herring?

what, now fish?

[Quester]

The idea here is that our bodies produce enough for us to function efficiently. All of the excess which we are consuming is harmful.

I agree that excess is harmful but we don't yet know how much=excess. It is good to learn that red meat doesn't have to be demonized any longer. However, I don't see any reason to be consuming Carnitine and in fact I'll try to minimize my intake in the future. It's easily concluded that we get enough from our diet and supplementing with it is not smart. This study was conducted by people who have spent their whole professional lives in this field. They are putting their vast reputations at stake if there were any way prove them wrong. The Professional journal which published it would be discredited if it didn't review the work before putting it in print. This journal has no advertising, because there is no market-it is written for other professionals. All articles in it are subject to a blind (lol-it means the author isn't identified, hence impartiality) peer (minimum 6 members) review.

[Quester]

Of course, there is a lot more to come about this issue, more research, more peer review and more to be published. Therefore, there are a lot more things to be discovered before anybody should be jumping to any extreme, but that is what will happen. There are always compensatory factors which provide exemptions to the rules. For example, salt is bad but if you sweat lots and drink lots of water you might need to make sure you are getting enough. Additionally, there is always a trade off. Some things which are bad are considered less bad if they are a necessary accompaniment to something which results in an overall good. All that being the case, I'll be staying away from "excess" Carnitine.

[zaggahamma]

Of course, there is a lot more to come about this issue, more research, more peer review and more to be published. Therefore, there are a lot more things to be discovered before anybody should be jumping to any extreme, but that is what will happen. There are always compensatory factors which provide exemptions to the rules. For example, salt is bad but if you sweat lots and drink lots of water you might need to make sure you are getting enough. Additionally, there is always a trade off. Some things which are bad are considered less bad if they are a necessary accompaniment to something which results in an overall good. All that being the case, I'll be staying away from "excess" Carnitine.

love the avy

[austinite]

This study can suck my Carnitine!!

[MrMayhem]

This study can suck my Carnitine!!

Agreed. Agreed. A thousand times agreed with all u said here. I took L carnitine in large doses for a year or so, EVERYDAY and I had no weird side effects. In fact, I dont think Ive ever felt better.

[DigitalGorilla]

It says it leads to heart disease...so you wouldnbt feel that over night

[austinite]

^ I can name 1000 things that "lead" to heart disease. It really doesn't mean anything DG. Someone was bored and decided to spit this garbage out as a study. Why red meat? Why not talk about TMAO in everything else we consume, even in similar quantities? Because it wouldn't make for decent media coverage if we had to look at 100 items. So we focus on 1 item. Let's go with red meat. Because it's human nature to develop anxiety when presented with too many things to think about.

This study is beyond silly.

[DigitalGorilla]

Yea I dont agree. I mean we all have an opinion.... so Im not saying your wrong. I just choose to listen to this..mostly because I just know there is a link between certain things and red meat.... Even at my heaviest -350lbs - I never had high bp, high ch., or any ailment at all. And I went from 17 to 28 with out ever eating red meat.... I dont know if its the reason but I know there are too many coincidences for me... and since my parents both died younger than 50 from heart attacks....ill play it safe.

[DigitalGorilla]

ANd - i dunno about "bored" - my gf is a teacher and research ass. at Columbia - the school that gave info to this study in 2008 - and I know they dont do things out of boredom

[DigitalGorilla]

sorry I should say "A school" not "the school"

[austinite]

Sure. Nothing wrong at all with cutting it out. Just not for me.

Bored was the wrong word to use. Selective, rather. And quite unfair to be honest. If you're going to study TMAO conversion, do it across the board.

For example... this is the problem with L-Carnitine..... and here is a list of foods containing it.

[Quester]

^ I can name 1000 things that "lead" to heart disease. It really doesn't mean anything DG. Someone was bored and decided to spit this garbage out as a study. Why red meat? Why not talk about TMAO in everything else we consume, even in similar quantities? Because it wouldn't make for decent media coverage if we had to look at 100 items. So we focus on 1 item. Let's go with red meat. Because it's human nature to develop anxiety when presented with too many things to think about.

This study is beyond silly.

Other studies have suggested that bacteria in the gut of people who consume high levels of carnitine are responsible for the conversion to TMAO. TMAO is also found in fish, where it helps them live in the high pressure environment of the deep. It is too early to start making conclusions about TMAO being the culprit.
The results of the studies simply state that carnitine is associated with atherosclerosis. Perhaps carnitine is named because it was the one thing that, the scientists could say conclusively, led to atherosclerosis. I have to think that if there were more conclusions that could be made from this, the science community would have done it.

[Quester]

Carnitine is known to have positive effects, such as helping to break down fat. I am going to keep eating red meat two-three times a week. I will definitely avoid consuming extra.

[MajorPectorial]

Carnitine is known to have positive effects, such as helping to break down fat. I am going to keep eating red meat two-three times a week. I will definitely avoid consuming extra.

Im.gunna keep eating it all day for 3-7 days on then off etc etc (I do big cooks) pfft. They also say don't eat eggs n nuts if ur with child. My ex missus decided notbto with one out of five kids ... guess which ones allergic to.eyes n nuts. Poor kid couldn't walk.in a greasy spoon without a gas mask.on.

[austinite]

Carnitine is known to have positive effects, such as helping to break down fat. I am going to keep eating red meat two-three times a week. I will definitely avoid consuming extra.

I'm going to up my dose!

[Quester]

Lol