I'm wondering how many people take this supplement after a work out? I usually eat 8oz chicken breast with half of cup of brown rice after my workout.., Is this good or should I pick up some dextrose from the store?
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I'm wondering how many people take this supplement after a work out? I usually eat 8oz chicken breast with half of cup of brown rice after my workout.., Is this good or should I pick up some dextrose from the store?
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
I personally see ZERO need/benefit to purposely ingest pure sugar. I've heard (and argued) the insulin spike debate, ad nauseum. If protein synthesis only occured within the first 30 - 60 mins PWO, then I'd get it. Since that's not the case (and that's 100% fact), I'll stick with eating food PWO.Originally Posted by getfit28
Anabolic Member
From my understanding it is good because its a simple carb that enters system quickly thus you're body produces insulin. Insulin is an anabolic hormone and again from my understanding when insulin levels are spiked it helps "shuttle" nutrients to muscles faster. It also restores glycogen loss in muscles from workout.
I prefer just eating brown rice or cooked oats. I know it doesn't get in my system as fast but it is more satisfying for me because it fills me up and it gets the job done. Also ingesting that much sweetness put a hurt on my stomach.
Associate Member
A banana with protein shake or a full meal never used it but if u are a hard gainer give it a try
Knowledgeable Member
It is amazing how the supplement industry never talks about the ''double edge sword'' effect of insulin that it doesn't only shuttle nutrients to priorly torn muscle fiber cells (which is the anabolic effect of this naturally occurring hormone) but it also encourages current fat reserves to be preserved by also shuttling calories to the fat cells (which is the catabolic process)... Anabolism & Catabolism are apparently more complex metabolic states than your average supplement industry owned fitness magazine reader can comprehend.
Anabolic Member
2 part question
Would slower burning carbs be better then simple? So instead of spiking its a slower more gradual increase.
If a person is sub 10% bf I would assume simple carbs would be ok because of the small amount of fat compared to muscle.
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
Ain't that a bitch!?
Further, fat oxidation ceases in the presence of insulin in the bloodstream.
Knowledgeable Member
i used to think that you needed high glycemic carbs post workout as well. after switching to the diet that im currently on now (less the 40g carbs, and they are from almonds, which increase insulin sensitivity and reduce insulin secretion) i have gotten good gains and not gained near as much body fat, even with a 1000 cal increase over tdee (for over 12 weeks now)
Knowledgeable Member
Response in bold.
Knowledgeable Member
It is most certainly a bitch, especially for those who are aware of the very nature of this ugly game of money making
Last edited by Turkish Juicer; 04-17-2013 at 12:54 PM.
Knowledgeable Member
Unless some new research has come to light that I haven't seen, showing that post-workout carbs reduce the GH response, this article is incorrect.
Here's something I wrote about this a while back, admittedly written from a recovery and anabolism perspective.
Post-Workout nutrition and Hormones
Q: According to several nutrition "experts," eating carbs after a workout will significantly reduce the growth hormone response to exercise, not to mention the other anabolic hormones. You recommend a carb and protein drink immediately after training, even when dieting. Won't that negate the GH response I've worked so hard to generate during my workout and negatively affect my fat loss?
A: This question brings up a couple of interesting points that need to be addressed once and (hopefully) for all.
First, I want to talk about the GH response to exercise - it's just not all that spectacular. While I think a healthy GH response after exercise is good, I don't think it will make or break your fat loss efforts. Check out this data...
While the GH increase from training is pretty big in untrained subjects (10 fold increase), it's not quite as big in trained guys (4-5 fold increase) (1,2,3,4).
Either way, the GH increase is very brief. It's at its peak immediately after exercise, is double about 15 minutes after exercise, and is back down to baseline at 30-60 minutes after exercise (2,3).
The GH release you get during the first few hours of sleep time is about a 20-fold increase in GH, while the normal GH pulses that occur during the day are between 10 and 15 fold (5). Not only are these pulses larger than the post-exercise pulse, but they last longer, too (1-3 hours).
So, hopefully from that data, you see that even if carbs did decrease the GH response to exercise, you're not missing out on all kinds of fat loss. GH pulses after exercise are small, very brief and inferior to normal daily GH pulses.
So if you had to make the choice, would you be willing to sacrifice muscle tissue in the hopes of trying to maintain what amounts to be a minor increase in GH? I didn't think so!
Guess what, though. You don't have to make the choice.
Here's the kicker...
Carbs DO NOT decrease the normal GH pulse after exercise!
I don't know how or why this myth got started, but it's gotta be dropped. Maybe the myth exists because a few endurance studies showed that infusing or drinking carbs DURING endurance exercise increased blood insulin and decreased blood GH (6,7). But how relevant is that to weight trainers and to the post-workout period?
Actually, according to 2 studies, a post-workout meal of carbs and protein INCREASED the post-workout GH release when compared to fasting after the workout (2, 8). In the first study, a 50-g protein plus 100-g carb drink taken after training increased GH response to exercise vs. no beverage. In addition, in the second study, a 1.06 g/kg carb plus 0.4 g/kg protein beverage stimulated better GH release over the next 6 hours vs. no beverage. So much for the post-workout GH myth; it looks like post-workout nutrition actually can enhance the GH release so many cherish.
Let's talk about the other anabolic hormones, too. Insulin goes up from eating (no references needed), so post-workout nutrition clearly affects this big-time anabolic hormone, too!
Last but not least, what about the big T? Well, brother, that's where things get sketchy. Training increases blood Testosterone levels by a small percentage for a very short period of time. But this increase actually takes a dive later, despite what you do as far as nutrition. This dive persists for at least 8 hours and may persist for up to 24 hours before it recovers to its normal levels.
Why? Well, it seems that blood T levels drop off below baseline after training due potentially to T clearance from the blood. Now, no one can tell you whether that T is disappearing from the blood and going into muscle (this would be really cool) or just being metabolized in the liver and eliminated (not so cool). Remember, though, this is what happens without eating.
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately, depending on the fate of the T - muscle or elimination), eating during this post-workout time does tend to decrease T even further than just nothing alone. But it doesn't matter whether you eat right after training or up to 2 hours later, the T still goes down. Either way, once you finally eat, T decreases. So my advice would be to forget this small decrease in T and get anabolic with aminos, BCAA, carbohydrates, insulin, and GH.
The take home message is as follows: Post workout nutrition seems like it may actually increase GH response to exercise, NOT decrease it. And, to boot, insulin goes up.
Although we don't know what's really happening to T, it shouldn't be a problem. I'll be posting the data in ****** in the near future from trials in our lab.
References
1. Journal of Applied Physiology; 88 (3), 982-992, 1999.
2. Journal of Applied Physiology; 85 (4), 1544-1555, 1998.
3. European Journal of Endocrinology; 141 (1), 22-26, 1999.
4. European Journal of Applied Physiology; 78 (1), 69-76, 1998.
5. Science; 177, 1205, 1972.
6. Journal of Applied Physiology; 87 (1), 124-131, 1999.
7. European Journal of Applied Physiology; 80 (2), 92-99, 1999.
8. Journal of Applied Physiology; 76 (2), 839-845, 1994.
John Berardi, PhD, CSCS, Pn1
President, Precision Nutrition
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
Plenty of negatives associated with spiked insulin, but I guess the supplement industries can't sell you 'anti-sugar', so they'll keep those hushed.It is most certainly a bitch, especially for those who are aware of the very nature of this ugly game of money making
Not only fat oxidation cesases in the presence of insulin in bloodstream, GH pulse is also blunted by PWO sugars.
Knowledgeable Member
im sure gb and TJ may have read this, but just a piece of light reading for the OP
Coingestion of carbohydrate wi... [Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI
Knowledgeable Member
I posted the article above because the evidence it suggests actually contradicts with our current knowledge of PWO sugars and blunted GH pulse.Plenty of negatives associated with spiked insulin, but I guess the supplement industries can't sell you 'anti-sugar', so they'll keep those hushed.
No harm in playing devil's advocate I guess, nutrition science is a realm that seems to surprise us all with its new findings and I don't really mind being challenged and proven wrong, if it is the case.
Member
Thank you all.. a lot of good info as I want to learn the diet part 100%.. I got my cycles down pack after 8 years... Anyway, I will stick with what I'm taking now which is 54g carb (oats ) in the morning.. 81 carbs (oats) pre work out and 70g carbs (brown rice) post work out.. I'm 34 years old 5.7 ht bf around 14% 190lbs. (Currently on test n deca).... if I don't see a change (lean mass).. I will try something else... your thoughts please?????? Total daily macros 400-420 protein / 205 carbs/ 80-90 fats / 3500 cals... am I on track?????? Thanks
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
Seems like a helluva lot of calories for your stats (roughly 163lbs LBM) ... I could see if you were sub 10% but you're not... do you find yourself adding noticeable fat gains at this caloric intake? Are you eating like this 7 days a week, or cycling carbs, or something else?
Knowledgeable Member
i personally think you can cut your carbs in half and go down to 3000 cals as ur tdee is only about 2500. it would help with keeping the fat at bay.
what type of fats are you ingesting?
and at second look your protein seems to be pretty high.
The Transformer ~VET~Recognized Staff Winner - $100
Dextrose PWO is pointless.... Consuming dextrose PWO is a practice utilised by endurance athletes if they are to be performing again within the same day....
Don't quote me but I believe that glycogen stores will be 'replenished' (well free glucose will be stored) within 24 hours... So unless you train with weights twice a day there is no need to worry....
However, never to rule anything out I will make a suggestion for you...
If/ when dieting consume a COH and BCAA'S drink intra workout.... Creating an insulin spike here is (on paper) IMO the best place for an insulin spike for a few reasons...
1.Consuming a COH drink as soon as you start training will literally give you energy for your workout.... When in an energy deficit we want to try and utilise the energy we consume in the most productive way.... A dextrose shake at the start of a workout will provide a rapid release of free glucose which will be the main substrate for the heavy workout.... If these COH's were not ingested you 'could' be in a position where your body has to start breaking down LBM to release glucose (gluconeogenesis)....
2. The fact you 'have energy' to train will result in a more intense workout which overall will burn more calories which is the goal when cutting....
However I can't really think of any other times to want to consume dextrose....
Layne norton however has done some research into meal frequency and he suggests that a lower meal frequency (every 4-6 hrs) when combined with a COH + BCAA mixture in between meals may increase overall dietary induced protein synthesis
Don't be a 'Bro'..... Believe nothing....Question everything
Baseline - Working to phase out this generation of Bro-Scientists
Stop over thinking nutrition - If you want something to think about download Myfitnesspal and learn how to count macros
Member
You all are great.. Yes, I'm eating like this 7x a week all though a lot of times my calories are lower on the weekends as I don't eat as often.. No I don't see gaining any fat but instead I see it lowering. Originally I started with 300-400 complex carbs a day and that gave me some fat. Now that I lowered it to 205g a day I'm looking much better.. should I still cut this in half to 100g...... the fats I'm in taking are cheese and peanut butter and I'm guessing the spam I use to cook.... is this good?.. so should I also lower protein intake??? Please help.... I thought the more protein the better.. I just want to grow hard and lean mass
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
In that case, I wouldn't lower calories.
Nope, not if you're seeing results that you want
Cheese and Spam... lol. You could probably benefit from some Omega 3's... fish oil, etc.
Nah man, more protein doesn't necessarily = more gains. If that were true, we'd all be consuming protein and not much else.
General rule of thumb (that I go by): 1.5g protein/lb of LBM. 250g protein is probably plenty for you. Up it to 300 if it makes you feel (psychologically) better. The remainder of calories could be made up via additional carbs and/or fats... so overall caloric intake won't change, but macro profile will.
Member
Gbrice, thank you so much.. I will switch up my diet a little.. question though, how much fats should I intake daily?... also, if I can't make it to the gym till late night is it still ok if take my carbs @ pre and post work outs???
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
I generally like 15-20% of calories from fats, but this depends to some degree on total caloric intake. At 3500 calories, I'd shoot for about 20% which is roughly 75g of fat... you may even be able to go a little higher but I'd keep it under 100g personally.
Yep, definitely continue eating carbs around your workout window. Take in energy (carbs) based on activity. This is clearly a time you'll need it. Further, protein synthesis will be heightened several hours PWO, while you're sleeping - so feed that recovery and growth!
Member
Thank you bro.... you da man
Knowledgeable Member
[QUOTE=gbrice75;6500548]I generally like 15-20% of calories from fats, but this depends to some degree on total caloric intake. At 3500 calories, I'd shoot for about 20% which is roughly 75g of fat... you may even be able to go a little higher but I'd keep it under 100g personally.
QUOTE]
this is where gbrice and myself differ. i eat 29% fats and only 7% carbs. and this is while im bulking. the lack of carbs keeps insulin extremely quiet, so im not putting on a lot of fat. but becuase im eating 65% protein, protein synthesis is able to occur. im also eating 4000+ calories a day.
your diet is one of those things where ur gonna have to pay special attention to it until you figure your out. not one diet will work on everyone. dont be afraid to experiment with it. but if your going to switch it up. give it time, and an honest go at how its designed and discover for yourself if its something that works for you.
when im looking at a diet, these are the things i ask myself
1. what kind of reults did it produce (gain good lbm but also a lot of fat, gained fat and no lbm, lost fat and maintained lbm, etc. etc. etc.)
2. can i do this diet everyday without it becoming a pain in the ass?
3. does it fit my goals.
AR's Diet Pimp! ~HOF~
^^ agreed. Simply put, some people do well on higher fat type diets. I'm not one of them, but that doesn't mean it won't work for the next guy. As stated, you have to try various things until you find something that 'clicks'. The worst thing you can do though is jump from plan to plan, never really allowing the results (or lack thereof) to play out, therefore never really knowing what (if anything) it's doing for you. I'd recommend AT LEAST a month running the same plan before deciding it's not working.
Knowledgeable Member
feel special? u got my first like :P
Senior Member
Great info, everyone. I've been wondering about this. At my age, 51, the supposed manditory pwo insulin spike did nothing but increase my waist.
The Transformer ~VET~Recognized Staff Winner - $100
[QUOTE=Tron3219;6500604]
65% protein on a 4k diet... That's 650g.... Are you seriously eating this much protein....
Baseline - Working to phase out this generation of Bro-Scientists
Stop over thinking nutrition - If you want something to think about download Myfitnesspal and learn how to count macros
Senior Member
In Lyle McDonalds the protein book, he advises to eat simple carbs to spike insulin 30 mins pre workout, you do this to keep glycogen levels full, he claims this is optimal for muscle growth (0.22g per lb) along with protein. He also adds sipping a carb protein drink during training will keep glycogen levels high, which is also optimal for muscle growth.
He says the post workout phase is not as important, you should just return to your normal meal plan.
I don't understand why people buy powdered dextrose, just by some sherbet, gummy bears or something like them, they are made from pure dextrose. Don't waste your money on supplement form, it's cheaper and more enjoyable to eat in candy form.
Last edited by 951thompson; 04-18-2013 at 03:46 AM.
Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
951 please don't take this wrong way but recently it sounds that you have been completely brainwashed by Lyle and that his is not only the best way, but the only way. It may not be how you intend it to sound but that is exactly the way it is coming across. Do you read anything else by anybody else ever?
Also, can you give me an idea of the brands of sherbet and gummy bears that make their their products with only dextrose and no glucose or other ingredients?
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Senior Member
No of course that's not how I mean to come across, I read material from many other authors, but Lyles material happens to be what I am reading at the moment, he is also my favorite nutritionist. For me lyles protein book is like the bible of protein lol the information is all backed up by studies that can be referenced.
Dextrose is the main ingredient in most chalk like candy, love Harts, sherbet, gummy bears, jelly beans ect. Google it!
Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
I googled and tbh, what you said I'd not the case as far as I can see. Dextrose may well be in there but, for example gummy bears list of ingredients in order of most first
European Ingredients: Glucose syrup; sugar; gelatin; dextrose; fruit juice from concentrate: apple, strawberry, raspberry, orange, lemon, pineapple; citric acid, lemon, pineapple; citric acid; fruit and plant concentrates: nettle, apple, spinach, kiwi, orange, elderberry, lemon, mango, passionfruit, blackcurrant, aronia, grape; flavorings; glazing agents: white and yellow beeswax; carnauba wax; elderberry extract; fruit extract from carob; invert sugar syrup
Ingredients for love hearts
Ingredients:
Sugar,Tartaric Acid,Malic Acid,Stearic Acid,Sodium Bicarbonate,Modified Starch,Magnesium Stearate,Magnesium Carbonate,Flavourings,E163,E141,E100,E161b,E160c
How much dextrose?
Ingredients for Baratts Sherbet Dip
Ingredients:
Sugar, Treacle, Wheat Flour, Cornflour, Sodium Bicarbonate, Citric Acid, Tartaric Acid, Anti Caking Agent (E341c), Caramel, Liquorice Extract, Flavouring.
That's why I asked for specifics. It may be pure dextrose in gummy bears but it is the 4th ingredient and I'm pretty sure isn't what Lyle has in mind, although I haven't read his protein book. As you can see, sherbet has none though I have no doubt some sherbet MAY have but it will still have plenty of other ingredients. If you know of any specific brands, as requested, please let me know.
Don't get me wrong, I like Lyle and what he has to say and I'm sure he does back up everything he says with studies but there are so many conflicting studies out there that anybody could write a book referencing studies if that was all it took.
Personally I go nowhere near dextrose or any other simple sugar. I have no issues with my glycogen levels during a workout because of the quality of the rest of my diet/carbohydrate intake. I feel no need to instantly 'shuttle' nutrients into my system and risk shutting off fat burning and increasing potential for fat storage at the same time. I'd even venture to go so far as to say that Lyle will even change his mind about this in time to come.
If you haven't already I'd suggest Layne Norton and Martin Berkhan.
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Senior Member
You should look at the ingredients I guess for candy made from dextrose,Willy wonker products are high in dextrose.
The point Lyle makes is that when muscles are depleted all the nutrients will go to the muscles and only the muscles (worth mentioning fat consumption should be very low during the spike to prevent fat storage) the point is it does'nt matter if the spike comes from dextrose, glucose, sucrose, fructose, lactose or whatever. Lyle isnt telling you to go stuff your face with candy, what he is telling you is to go have around 30g (depending on body weight)of simple carbs.
I have read one of layns books, he is an interesting guy. Martin does not have any books published, I followed his leangains protocol for around a year (had some good success with leangains) I also read Alan Aragon, john Keither, bob pilons work also.
Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
I wasn't really asking where I could dextrose in the form of candy merely pointing out that your examples were seriously flawed.
The simple sugars argument is just that, an argument or differing opinions. Plenty of studies either way. For me it really isn't an option and I don't believe that the difference is anything more than negligible. I would rather keep my blood sugar stable and am happy that my pre workout meal(s) will be quite sufficient to keep all parts of my body filled with enough nutrients to make the whole 'anabolic window' an irrelevant point.
Obviously if its all gold to you then that's ok, but I was just pointing out your flaws in the candy suggestion and how you come across with Lyle.
Peace out, happy training
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Senior Member
Seems to me that you are picking at my comments, the fact remains most chalk like candies main ingredient is dextrose.
I wasn't really asking where I could dextrose in the form of candy merely pointing out that your examples were seriously flawed.
The simple sugars argument is just that, an argument or differing opinions. Plenty of studies either way. For me it really isn't an option and I don't believe that the difference is anything more than negligible. I would rather keep my blood sugar stable and am happy that my pre workout meal(s) will be quite sufficient to keep all parts of my body filled with enough nutrients to make the whole 'anabolic window' an irrelevant point.
Obviously if its all gold to you then that's ok, but I was just pointing out your flaws in the candy suggestion and how you come across with Lyle.
Peace out, happy training
Lyle McDonald knows more about this shit than you and I probably ever will, so I take what he says serious as he is a highly credible sports nutritionist.
I never mentioned the anabolic window, I also believe this to be a load of old baloney.
I am not saying you have to spike your insulin before during or after training, im pointing out this is optimal (from a credible source)
Lyle does'nt tell you to spike insulin in his keto book, that you be stupid, it would knock you out of ketotis.
This approach is for people on a typical carb bulking diet, people who are looking to build muscle.
What I pointed out is this is the most optimal way for strength athletes (according to Lyle)
I am in no way shape or form saying lyles way is the only way, I haven't and never will, I was just expressing my opinion the same as everyone else here. I have never forced my opinion on anyone else, I am here to learn and am open to other opinions and am open to changing mine should evidence come to light that would change my mind.
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^^ This.
I'm also a big fan of Lyle's work, and he happens to be my (current) favorite, if I had to choose one. However, that probably has a lot to do with the fact that I'm a nerd for this shit, and Lyle is the biggest nerd of all... but there are probably more practical approaches. By practical, I mean for people trying to live a 'normal' life, i.e. I am not planning to step on a stage, ever.
Talk to Baseline... he's a huge Layne guy.
Beach Bodybuilder ~Elite-Hall of Fame~
I'm picking where you are wrong that's all. You gave 3 examples of sweets high in dextrose yet 2 of them don't have any. Your chalky 'candy' statement may ring true in the states but that isn't where you or I live. I don't care to look into dextrose content of their candy be ause I know that isn't what you were referring to. Refresher sweets in the UK are chalky yet have no dextrose, they have maltodextrin but that is the 7th listed ingredient on there. Please, if you know of any that actually do have the main ingredient as dextrose then let me know.
I never mentioned keto I'm not sure why you would? Last time keto was discussed between us you never came back to the thread I don't think. Maybe you did and I missed it. Anyhow.......
Stick with your dextrose if it works for you I have no issue with that. All I was saying is that you come across as blinkered as every week it is Lyle says this and Lyle say that. Not trying to pick a argument just saying how I see it. We all have ways of doing things and most people think that there's is the best way despite not having tried other methods. Last year I got to 7% using Lyles stubborn fat solution but lost so much LBM that it is not something I will ever follow again. Maybe it works better for others but I am pleased I tried it (to a point). I still haven't worked out what's best for me other than consistency with my diet (not chopping and changing ever 6-10 weeks) and consistency in the gym (something I've been lacking over recent years).
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Senior Member
Thing is he does'nt back it up with just one study, he references about 6!
Senior Member
Willy wonker products are high in dextrose
The main reason I've probably been quoting Lyle lately is because I've been reading his books, so the info is fresh in my mind. Im sorry if that's the way it comes across, dont mean to irritate you lol
Just I've got alot of love for Lyle at the moment, his UD 2.0 is getting me ripped
I've been the same in the past, jumping from routine to routine, well it's been more of when I hit a Plato I would change routine. I stuck with leangains for a whole year, probably the longest I've followed just the one diet.
I am learning all the time, getting more knowledgable of how my body works by the day (alot of this is thanks to Lyle)
Senior Member
Just looked for candy made from dextrose,runts by Willy wonka (main ingredient dextrose)
Most of the Willy wonka products are made from dextrose.
But this wasn't really my main point, the spike is what's important by whichever simple carb.
On your point about me running away from the keto discussion. I made my point, you where wrong. Dont want to open an old can of worms but, Eggs and fatty meat is the staple of a keto diet (fact) I know because I've read the book and also I have followed it. (remember me telling you about me jumping from diet to diet, this was one of them. May I add I used to be obese so I've been on alot of diets)
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