***Dieting 101: Carb Cycling***

[gbrice75]

Hey GB so on you low day what veggies woul you say stay away from I know carrots aren't very good but don't know of any others, I don't like veggies much the ones I can stand are broccoli,cauliflower,asparagus,any squash,artichokes, ca I just stic to those? Also started my log if you have some extra time your input is always welcome anything you see wrong I would like your opinion.thanks again man.

You can definitely stick with broccoli/cauliflower/asparagus/artichokes... I'd probably forfeit the squash personally. Any green or red lettuces, spinach, green beans, etc. are fair game too. Kale is excellent for you.

I'll have a look asap.

[Dougiefresh7707]

You can definitely stick with broccoli/cauliflower/asparagus/artichokes... I'd probably forfeit the squash personally. Any green or red lettuces, spinach, green beans, etc. are fair game too. Kale is excellent for you.

I'll have a look asap.

Yea I use alot of kale or spinach in my ground turkey I like it cuz you pack a ton in the pan and it cooks to like nothing so I dump even more in lol.

[Brazensol]

I am interested in starting carb cycling (for cutting) on this Monday. Does this look about right for me? I am going to use 450 for my calorie cut.

Weight:..........185
BF%:..............19.2
LBM.............150
TDEE............2250
Cal. Deficit...-450

Moderate Carb Days:

Protein....230
Carbs......130
Fat..........40

Low Carb Days:

Protein....230
Carbs......0
Fat..........40

Reload Day:

Protein....230
Carbs......345
Fat..........40

Thanks for looking!

[GANZZILLA]

I was interested in doing a bulk but what should my protein carbs and fats be. I'm 5'9 160 about 12% bf I train 6 days a week with cardio every other day.

[Brazensol]

GB - is your carb cycling diet set up to correspond with a 3 workout/week routine? If yes, would it still be effective with a 4 workout/week routine? I would be lifting on day 1 & 2 and day 5 & 6.

[gbrice75]

I am interested in starting carb cycling (for cutting) on this Monday. Does this look about right for me? I am going to use 450 for my calorie cut.

Weight:..........185
BF%:..............19.2
LBM.............150
TDEE............2250
Cal. Deficit...-450

Moderate Carb Days:

Protein....230
Carbs......130
Fat..........40

Low Carb Days:

Protein....230
Carbs......0
Fat..........40

Reload Day:

Protein....230
Carbs......345
Fat..........40

Thanks for looking!

Numbers look pretty good to me, although I'd bump fats up a bit. 50g or so. You probably don't need carbs to go above 300g on refeed day, but not a big deal really... matter of 200 calories, won't make or break anything.

I was interested in doing a bulk but what should my protein carbs and fats be. I'm 5'9 160 about 12% bf I train 6 days a week with cardio every other day.

I'd probably start at a 40/40/20 split @ around 2600 calories/day and tweak from there.

GB - is your carb cycling diet set up to correspond with a 3 workout/week routine? If yes, would it still be effective with a 4 workout/week routine? I would be lifting on day 1 & 2 and day 5 & 6.

When I was using carb cycling to cut, my workout schedule was 5x weekly. Definitely effective with the split you've laid out.

[Brazensol]

Thanks!

[Brazensol]

You mentioned that even on low carb days you will end up taking in low amount of carbs. My question is - how low is low enough for the diet to still be effective? Under 10 grams? Twenty?

[krugerr]

You mentioned that even on low carb days you will end up taking in low amount of carbs. My question is - how low is low enough for the diet to still be effective? Under 10 grams? Twenty?

Usually under 50g a day I found was effective for low carb days. This allowed me to not directly eat carbs, but still fit macros for the carbs in the other things, plus with enough veg it'll add up.

[Brazensol]

Fifty! That's easy! I was worried about 15g screwing it up. lol. Do grams from fiber count?

[Brazensol]

Ok, I went back and reread the cutting cycle info. I missed where he talked about the 50-100g of fibrous veggies not being a problem. Glad I reread it because I do like my veggies and not having them three days out of the week would have been tough. Just have to remember to avoid the starchy carbs.

[krugerr]

Ok, I went back and reread the cutting cycle info. I missed where he talked about the 50-100g of fibrous veggies not being a problem. Glad I reread it because I do like my veggies and not having them three days out of the week would have been tough. Just have to remember to avoid the starchy carbs.

Don't count fiver toward the carb macro, however your veggies will still have some carbs.
I eat typically 500g broccoli a day which is around 13g carbs and 17g fibre.

Write up a plan and post it up, be glad to take a look. I found it too me about 4 revisions to get my carb cycle to fit a simple shopping list and make it enjoyable. I just kept tinkering with other options to substitute if I got bored of a particular food. Until I arrived at the final revision which I feel I could eat everyday for 6 months and enjoy it.

So post it up and let's take a look!

[gbrice75]

You mentioned that even on low carb days you will end up taking in low amount of carbs. My question is - how low is low enough for the diet to still be effective? Under 10 grams? Twenty?

Usually, staying somewhere within 20-30g is sufficient to achieve a state of ketosis (after a few days). Although ketosis isn't our goal while carb cycling, it's a very 'safe' number to work with. In his book 'UD 2.0', Lyle McDonald notes that there is no appreciable difference between 20g and 50g carbs; however I still tend to err on the lower end.

Fifty! That's easy! I was worried about 15g screwing it up. lol. Do grams from fiber count?

Insoluble fiber doesn't count, however I personally count ALL fiber towards my total. This allows me 'think' I'm eating more, thereby keeping carbs in check. It's sort of my Jedi mind trick... Note - I'm not saying you should do this. It's just what I personally do.

Ok, I went back and reread the cutting cycle info. I missed where he talked about the 50-100g of fibrous veggies not being a problem. Glad I reread it because I do like my veggies and not having them three days out of the week would have been tough. Just have to remember to avoid the starchy carbs.

Eat them veggies! Fibrous veggies and starchy carbs aren't comparable in terms of how your body assimilates them.

[Ironman310]

Hey there what kind of cardio is best while carb cycling
Hiit it moderate (empty stomach ) thanks for all the advice

[gbrice75]

Hey there what kind of cardio is best while carb cycling
Hiit it moderate (empty stomach ) thanks for all the advice

All kinds... just do cardio!

[BuffMama]

Hi, just wanted to give feedback on carb cycling to bulk. I'm in week 3 and love it I'm gaining weight at a slow pace and that's good for me, I have a hard time putting on muscle so I'm very careful with my cals as to not put on fat. I'm impressed, Great stuff on this thread, thank you!

[gbrice75]

Hi, just wanted to give feedback on carb cycling to bulk. I'm in week 3 and love it I'm gaining weight at a slow pace and that's good for me, I have a hard time putting on muscle so I'm very careful with my cals as to not put on fat. I'm impressed, Great stuff on this thread, thank you!

Great job!! How long have you been at it (lifting, etc.) in general?

[BuffMama]

Great job!! How long have you been at it (lifting, etc.) in general?

Lifting 2 1/2 years, I've been working out 8 years doing whatever and finally found I love lifting did some figure shows in 2011, had a bad rebound and spent 2012 focusing on my diet through trial and error and a recovered metabolism I finally feel like I found my sweet spot. Eating lots of food gaining muscle and little fat

[gbrice75]

Lifting 2 1/2 years, I've been working out 8 years doing whatever and finally found I love lifting did some figure shows in 2011, had a bad rebound and spent 2012 focusing on my diet through trial and error and a recovered metabolism I finally feel like I found my sweet spot. Eating lots of food gaining muscle and little fat

Awesome! Always good to have another female member around who has competed... stick around, I'm sure you'll soon be helping and inspiring others around here, male and female alike!

[BuffMama]

Awesome! Always good to have another female member around who has competed... stick around, I'm sure you'll soon be helping and inspiring others around here, male and female alike!

I will stay around I'm Learning alot reading forums ive also been using anavar so I hope I can eventually help others with that and competing and nutrition

[Sub_Zero]

I seriously wish that majority of newbies would jump-start to this section rather than experimenting with AAS and the looking for someone to blame when things go out of hand Nevertheless, great post GB... really appreciate the info.
If it's not too much to ask i would like you to take a look at my stats and direct me whenever I'm on the right track:

Age: 24
Height: 6.0
Objective: Reach 80KG - 176LB while not going above 10%... Ideally not going above at all (Wishful thinking
Current: 74KG - 160LB (8%)
Calories: 3031
Protein: 341.9 - 53.66%
Carbohydrates: 200.9 - 31.52%
Fat: 94.4 - 14.82%

Training: 6 Days a Week
Intervals: 3 Day High Intensity (Weights (Drop-sets) + Resistance) (90 minutes) 3 Days Medium Intensity (Weights or Resistance) (60 minutes)

I'm was planning on incorporating sprint sessions during "3 Days Medium Intensity" days, however having doubts as it could promote additional calorie intake.

Also, out of pure curiosity, have you ever tried increasing fat intake while decreasing carbohydrates ? Theoretically, fast metabolism should recognize fat as alternative source of energy and mobilize it along with carbohydrates thus compensating energy depletion from lack of carbohydrates ? Any thoughts ?

Thanks

[gbrice75]

I seriously wish that majority of newbies would jump-start to this section rather than experimenting with AAS and the looking for someone to blame when things go out of hand Nevertheless, great post GB... really appreciate the info.

Thank you sir!

If it's not too much to ask i would like you to take a look at my stats and direct me whenever I'm on the right track:

Age: 24
Height: 6.0
Objective: Reach 80KG - 176LB while not going above 10%... Ideally not going above at all (Wishful thinking
Current: 74KG - 160LB (8%)
Calories: 3031
Protein: 341.9 - 53.66%
Carbohydrates: 200.9 - 31.52%
Fat: 94.4 - 14.82%

Protein is way high... I don't see the need. Your training is high output - so why not make your energy high input? 250g would be plenty. I'd take the remaining 400 calories and dump it all into carbs (100g more), or distribute it evenly between fat/carbs - 22g and 50g respectively.

Training: 6 Days a Week
Intervals: 3 Day High Intensity (Weights (Drop-sets) + Resistance) (90 minutes) 3 Days Medium Intensity (Weights or Resistance) (60 minutes)

I'm was planning on incorporating sprint sessions during "3 Days Medium Intensity" days, however having doubts as it could promote additional calorie intake.

Not sure I quite understand your routine, but like I said - it sounds like high output nonetheless.

Also, out of pure curiosity, have you ever tried increasing fat intake while decreasing carbohydrates ? Theoretically, fast metabolism should recognize fat as alternative source of energy and mobilize it along with carbohydrates thus compensating energy depletion from lack of carbohydrates ? Any thoughts ?

Thanks

Yes, and this is pretty much the idea behind keto dieting. I actually *do* run carbs relatively low, around 100g/day localized around my workout window with the remainder of meals just being protein/fat for the most part. Having said that, my caloric requirements are much less than that of yours.

[Sub_Zero]

Protein is way high... I don't see the need. Your training is high output - so why not make your energy high input? 250g would be plenty. I'd take the remaining 400 calories and dump it all into carbs (100g more), or distribute it evenly between fat/carbs - 22g and 50g respectively.

I see... this would provide additional energy throughout the day and it could be used throughout my Thur/Fri/Sat sessions where my training is based on average output: making it more dynamic. I'll definitely give a try and assess my performance based on it throughout the week.

Yes, and this is pretty much the idea behind keto dieting. I actually *do* run carbs relatively low, around 100g/day localized around my workout window with the remainder of meals just being protein/fat for the most part. Having said that, my caloric requirements are much less than that of yours.

At what body-fat & would you advice to attempt this approach as it certainly doesn't sound easy. Moreover, how are your energy levels fluctuating throughout the day based on on lower carbohydrates and higher fat intake ?

Also, what is your opinion on 6 meals per day vs 3 meals per day ?

Thanks

[gbrice75]

At what body-fat & would you advice to attempt this approach as it certainly doesn't sound easy. Moreover, how are your energy levels fluctuating throughout the day based on on lower carbohydrates and higher fat intake ?

I don't think you need to be at any specific level of BF to run a keto diet, although I tend to think results would be more favorable (i.e. more fat/less muscle lost) at higher bodyfat percentages. I don't know if I'd attempt it at <10% because I'd be more concerned about burning LBM at that point.

Personally, I've never done well on keto diets. I've run one twice and never quite felt right. I lost a lot of weight, but not much bodyfat. Looked small, felt weak. But I will say that at the time, my fats probably weren't high enough. When you take carbs out of the equation, your body needs energy from somewhere. If fat isn't sufficient, the only thing left is dietary protein and/or LBM.

Also, what is your opinion on 6 meals per day vs 3 meals per day ?

Thanks

Go with whatever works best for you, makes you feel the best, and suits your lifestyle. In terms of metabolism, there is no difference. People who eat smaller, more frequent meals are NOT speeding up their metabolism, that's a debunked myth.

[Sub_Zero]

"Ketogenic" diet is definitely an interesting subject and worth researching/experimenting, however an I'm still new to this I think for the time being I'll stick "Atkins" and see how far I can push it.
To my surprise, my younger brother managed to push his BF% down to 5% while maintaining majority of LBM while he was on "Atkins" diet. He stats: 6.2ft, 180lb
I would guess that if applying appropriate proportions in terms of P/C/F ratio, one should be able to push BF% even further down simply because liver will be breaking down fat into acids and utilize as an energy. This would also promote an increase in free test levels (especially from saturated fat) - another great benefit. Personally, I would move towards such diet gradually by slowly reducing carbs and increasing fat. The reason for that is that your body would gradually adjust to new source of energy rather than having a shock therapy and burn some LBM before adjusting to to ketonic acids. Hmmm... and the energy levels ? You got me thinking GB, you got me thinking... I need to do some research on this subject and do some tests in order to have an opinion, because right know it's a pure game of logic. Damn... you learn something new every day LOL !!!!

[Jack Mehoff]

So if I'm cutting i should avoid fruits? Is this because of the sugars turning into fats?

[gbrice75]

"Ketogenic" diet is definitely an interesting subject and worth researching/experimenting, however an I'm still new to this I think for the time being I'll stick "Atkins" and see how far I can push it.

I wouldn't use Atkins in conjunction with a weight training regimen. As far as I remember, there is no recommendation for macros, no concern for types of foods eaten (i.e. Atkins lets you have at it with all the nastiest, artery clogging shit if you wish), etc. There are MUCH better keto diets out there designed to compliment weight training. Research CKD (Cyclic Ketogenic Diet) and also look up Dave Palumbo and his approach. Atkins, IMO, wasn't designed with an active lifestyle in mind.

To my surprise, my younger brother managed to push his BF% down to 5% while maintaining majority of LBM while he was on "Atkins" diet. He stats: 6.2ft, 180lb

Impressive. Honestly, I can't imagine he ran a 'cookie cutter' Atkins diet. Most guys have a hard time getting below 8% without losing LBM running a carb rich diet, let alone keto.

I would guess that if applying appropriate proportions in terms of P/C/F ratio, one should be able to push BF% even further down simply because liver will be breaking down fat into acids and utilize as an energy. This would also promote an increase in free test levels (especially from saturated fat) - another great benefit.

This would definitely make a difference. However, I'd still incorporate a carb refeed day, once every 10 days at least. Likely once/week. (the basis of CKD, hence, 'cyclic')

Personally, I would move towards such diet gradually by slowly reducing carbs and increasing fat. The reason for that is that your body would gradually adjust to new source of energy rather than having a shock therapy and burn some LBM before adjusting to to ketonic acids. Hmmm... and the energy levels ?

I don't think it really matters tbh. Our bodies don't need dietary carbohydrates at all, so I wouldn't 'waste' time doing this gradually. Just cut carbs and your body will burn what glycogen stores are left, then if calories are on point and dietary fats are high enough, should settle in to a decent fat/ketone burning state.

You got me thinking GB, you got me thinking... I need to do some research on this subject and do some tests in order to have an opinion, because right know it's a pure game of logic. Damn... you learn something new every day LOL !!!!

Let me know what you wind up deciding on, and how you make out!

So if I'm cutting i should avoid fruits? Is this because of the sugars turning into fats?

No, and no. Excess calories are stored as fat, not just those from sugar. However, due to surges in insulin and other factors, I try to keep them minimal and localized around my workout window in an effort to maximize their efficiency.

[CLiQx]

I was always curious how to properly moderate carb intake... Great read

[gbrice75]

I was always curious how to properly moderate carb intake... Great read

Glad you're finding the post useful, and welcome to the board!

[athletic.guy]

lol... someday you might budge!



Thanks brother. Like you, I always found hitting my protein macro with whole foods tough too... and at times, I'd be 50/50 powder/whole food. Then I found the holy grail: liquid egg whites!!!

I drink about a carton a day (not all at once) which provides roughly 100g quality (some consider gold standard) protein. Because of this, I now use very little protein powder these days.

DUDE.... you drink raw egg whites ???

[gbrice75]

DUDE.... you drink raw egg whites ???

Liquid, not raw. Cartoned egg whites are pasteurized, therefore not raw. The pasteurization process kills off harmful bacteria and as far as I can tell, the Avidin that binds up some of the protein in actual raw eggs and makes their content less bio available.

[pjbandit]

How do you account for sugar alcohols in your carb counting?

[gbrice75]

How do you account for sugar alcohols in your carb counting?

I don't... but with that in mind, I try to keep intake minimal.

[Garcia13]

Great read!

[gbrice75]

Great read!

Glad you enjoyed it!

[BennyBenny]

Hey! I have found this to be very interesting. I currently am doing amatuer bikini competitions and have my first figure show coming up here in the spring! What about lean bulking? my last prep I bulked a bit higher than i wanted (im 5'4 and show at 112lbs) I bulked up to 133lbs and it was not a great number to have to go down from and i retained a TON of water and had to deplete way too long this time to get all the water off. i dropped a solid 13-15 in water weight within the show prep remaining two weeks and it was mighty unnerving coming up to those last few days and still looking bloated! Do you have any advise on a lean bulk where i can maintain more of a leanness? my measurements are pretty close but i need to focus on legs. BUUUUUT i want to maintain some sort of lean midsection this time and really want to solve the extreme water retention issue!

Let me know if you have any words!

[run_n_fool]

Liquid, not raw. Cartoned egg whites are pasteurized, therefore not raw. The pasteurization process kills off harmful bacteria and as far as I can tell, the Avidin that binds up some of the protein in actual raw eggs and makes their content less bio available.

I've heard raw eggs were something like 50% bio available. You think that cartoned egg whites are fully bio avail? That'd be great news to me, but just wanted to confirm that before I start chugging them down. They are super cheap at Costco ...

[Back In Black]

I've heard raw eggs were something like 50% bio available. You think that cartoned egg whites are fully bio avail? That'd be great news to me, but just wanted to confirm that before I start chugging them down. They are super cheap at Costco ...

Yes, pasteurised eggs are as close to 100% as you will get.

[gbrice75]

Hey! I have found this to be very interesting. I currently am doing amatuer bikini competitions and have my first figure show coming up here in the spring! What about lean bulking? my last prep I bulked a bit higher than i wanted (im 5'4 and show at 112lbs) I bulked up to 133lbs and it was not a great number to have to go down from and i retained a TON of water and had to deplete way too long this time to get all the water off.
i dropped a solid 13-15 in water weight within the show prep remaining two weeks and it was mighty unnerving coming up to those last few days and still looking bloated! Do you have any advise on a lean bulk where i can maintain more of a leanness? my measurements are pretty close but i need to focus on legs. BUUUUUT i want to maintain some sort of lean midsection this time and really want to solve the extreme water retention issue!

Let me know if you have any words!

Hey there, I assume you are/were working with a coach? If so, is it the same coach this time around? I'm just curious as to what he/she thought about this.

To be honest, I wouldn't be overly concerned with water retention so long as you *can* dry out when it counts. I agree thought that it shouldn't take forever to accomplish. I'd be interested to hear your regimen to drop the water weight?

Do you have a tendency to retain water beyond what you might consider the 'average'? Women are obviously very different than men with particular regard to hormonal impact on water retention, so you girls definitely have it worse.

I'd like to help but would need to know what you were doing prior (i.e. your 'bulk') and then what changes were made during prep.

I've heard raw eggs were something like 50% bio available. You think that cartoned egg whites are fully bio avail? That'd be great news to me, but just wanted to confirm that before I start chugging them down. They are super cheap at Costco ...

I can't say it any better than what you've already quoted. What you say about raw eggs is correct, and as stated, cartoned egg whites are not raw, they've been heated to a point where the avidin is destroyed thereby increasing bioavailability by nearly double.

[run_n_fool]

Does drinking the whites give you the trots? I did it for the first time in a while yesterday and basically had a completely liquid BM like an hour later.