Insulin... The enemy while cutting?

**baseline_9** · 05-30-2013, 04:07 AM

Ok, guys.... This is a discussion thread about insulin (endogenous) will dieting....

Is insulin really the enemy while dieting?

Some would say that the presence of insulin stops fat mobilisation.... Is this true? Considering insulin is always going to be present I'd question that.....

I believe people over emphasise insullins roll in preventing fat loss.... And by that I'm talking about extended periods (weeks not hours).....

If you believe it is important to keep insulin levels suppressed then think about this.....

If a person was eating at TDEE - 500..... That would translate to roughly 1 lb of weight loss per week....

So lets imagine two people were eating the same diet yet we injected one of the people with insulin via a drip all day for a week....

Do you really think that person would not loose weight just because insulin was present....

Some would now say well they would loose the same weight but one would burn fat and the other would burn muscle.... Well insullin acts in the same way in preventing muscle breakdown as it does fatty acid breakdown.... So I'm not sure that theory holds up....

Anyway, discuss.....

**krugerr** · 05-30-2013, 05:31 AM

Good thread idea buddy. Be interested to see what peoples opinions are, I know too little about it to even hazard a real guess. From what you have written though, I would lean toward your theory, if the insulin is a constant drip supply then it'll have equal effect on both the fat and muscle breakdown, so they should lose equal weight in roughly the same proportion of fat/muscle.

Just an uneducated opinion though!

**gbrice75** · 05-30-2013, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

If a person was eating at TDEE - 500..... That would translate to roughly 1 lb of weight loss per week....

So lets imagine two people were eating the same diet yet we injected one of the people with insulin via a drip all day for a week....

Do you really think that person would not loose weight just because insulin was present....

All else being equal, I don't think the insulin subject would necessarily NOT lose weight; however, I don't know that their results would be identical either. Hormones play a far bigger role in our metabolic processes than they're often given credit for, and certainly more than we understand.

It's not the presence of insulin that halts fat mobilization and eventual oxidation; as you stated, it's always present. To what degree is it present - that's the variable. Surging levels of insulin (in response to spikes in BGL) will stop or at the very least hinder fat mobilization, that's a fact. Glucose is the simplest form of energy and when present, the preferred source (makes sense, seeing as it's metabolically inexpensive to use as compared to protein/muscle tissue, and even bodyfat stores) our bodies will use. Why burn fat when there's plenty of readily available energy right there for the taking? Unless, of course, the demand exceeds the supply.

Base - i'm just playing devil's advocate here to hopefully spark an interesting conversation and/or debate. As you know from our private conversations, I'm pretty burned out on the whole science side of things. I intend to spend more time doing, and less talking about this shit. lol

**jimmyinkedup** · 05-30-2013, 07:52 AM

Or might the result depend on individual factors such as say insulin resistance etc ? Not saying it does, just throwing that into the mix!

**--->>405<<---** · 05-30-2013, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I'm pretty burned out on the whole science side of things. I intend to spend more time doing, and less talking about this shit. lol

^^this i agree with. i know in UD2 and stubborn fat solution (i think) Lyle says the presence of insulin halts fat mobilization. to what extent and for how long i have no idea. personally i know what enables me to cut to single digit body fat and other than that i really dont care! this whole diet thing can be over-complicated and over thought to death! i used to do this and im tired of it.

i will say this: cycling carbs combined with fasting eod has proven to be very effective for myself with regards to cutting body fat. is this due to simply my caloric deficit created or does the lack of insulin assist in my ability to burn more fat than if i were eating more carbs and all day long? i think so. it certainly doesnt hurt!

**Tron3219** · 05-30-2013, 08:25 AM

Agreed, u can read 10 different studies or articles by well known nutritionalists and get 10 different answers. I believe there is no cookie cutter diet. Everyone's body responds differently to food, insulin and so many variables in virtually impossible to determine what works for x person. You simply have to experiment and see what works and tweak from there. Like myself I do not respond well to carbs while bulking or cutting, I'm doing a carb cycle now just for experimental purposes and my high days only have 150g carbs and seeing some decent results thus far. Where as I think sarge said he was loosing fat at 250g carbs. I've tried this and it doesn't work for me. So what I think it boils down to is not only insulin. It's a plethora of factors that can be ur foe while cutting.

**gbrice75** · 05-30-2013, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Or might the result depend on individual factors such as say insulin resistance etc ? Not saying it does, just throwing that into the mix!

Good point, and definitely worth considering IMO.

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

^^this i agree with. i know in UD2 and stubborn fat solution (i think) Lyle says the presence of insulin halts fat mobilization. to what extent and for how long i have no idea. personally i know what enables me to cut to single digit body fat and other than that i really dont care! this whole diet thing can be over-complicated and over thought to death! i used to do this and im tired of it.

i will say this: cycling carbs combined with fasting eod has proven to be very effective for myself with regards to cutting body fat. is this due to simply my caloric deficit created or does the lack of insulin assist in my ability to burn more fat than if i were eating more carbs and all day long? i think so. it certainly doesnt hurt!

Yep!

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Agreed, u can read 10 different studies or articles by well known nutritionalists and get 10 different answers. I believe there is no cookie cutter diet. Everyone's body responds differently to food, insulin and so many variables in virtually impossible to determine what works for x person. You simply have to experiment and see what works and tweak from there. Like myself I do not respond well to carbs while bulking or cutting, I'm doing a carb cycle now just for experimental purposes and my high days only have 150g carbs and seeing some decent results thus far. Where as I think sarge said he was loosing fat at 250g carbs. I've tried this and it doesn't work for me. So what I think it boils down to is not only insulin. It's a plethora of factors that can be ur foe while cutting.

Great post. Simply put, everybody has to find what works best for his/herself (and it will definitely vary from individual to individual) and stick with that until it ceases to work, then experiment further.

**Tron3219** · 05-30-2013, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Good point, and definitely worth considering IMO.

Yep!

Great post. Simply put, everybody has to find what works best for his/herself (and it will definitely vary from individual to individual) and stick with that until it ceases to work, then experiment further.

Man, gb mr politically correct this morning?! Lol

**gbrice75** · 05-30-2013, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Tron3219

Man, gb mr politically correct this morning?! Lol

Haha! Are you implying that I normally go around picking fights!? lol

**Tron3219** · 05-30-2013, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Haha! Are you implying that I normally go around picking fights!? lol

Not at all lol

**gearbox** · 05-30-2013, 10:02 AM

I have read many articles stating different things will work and why. All have science or participants to prove that it does also.
As said above the key to getting lean imo is doing what works best for you. The problem is YOU have to experiment with various diets/protocols to gain this knowledge. It will be frustrating and time consuming to do.

Regarding baseline op- I believe the results would vary depending on the person. Some no change between the two where others would lose or gain on a steady drip.
Losing fat is a lot like gaining muscle imo. Some do it a lot easier then others. You can go on the same bulking diet with a buddy who has the same stats and he is gaining a lot quicker then you. Wtf? Welcome to everyone is different.
some things we know to be true.
Spiked insulin can halt fat metabolism
The importance of Caloric expenditure for cutting or bulking
The importance of test levels for overall well being (actually all hormone levels)

So much more..
Gearbox

**Brazensol** · 05-30-2013, 07:20 PM

I agree with the one size does NOT fit all approach. You have to try different things and find what works for you. If you're lucky you'll find it fast. Or better yet many things will work for you and you get to choose and change things up. It's the really unlucky ones who can't seem to find anything that works well.

**gearbox** · 05-31-2013, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Brazensol

I agree with the one size does NOT fit all approach. You have to try different things and find what works for you. If you're lucky you'll find it fast. Or better yet many things will work for you and you get to choose and change things up. It's the really unlucky ones who can't seem to find anything that works well.

Those are the ones that are usually looking for a short cut, cause there diet, dedication, and training is slacking.

**baseline_9** · 05-31-2013, 10:04 AM

I'm on the fence with the whole 'find what works for you' thing....

Yes I agree that you have to find something that you can stick to..... But we are humans and generally we respond to the same things.... There will be outliers but in generall the bulk of people will respond to similar approaches...

I am starting to believe that insullin has no relevance to long term fat loss.... But I suppose my results will show as I'm eating a load of white and processed carbs right now and will continue to do so for now....