KelKel's Get massive not fat thread

Kelkel this quote intrigued me 'I've quoted this for years longer than I've been here. It's why I never really believed in bulking. I just don't want the fat. Ever.'

Taken from Austinites OTC fat burner thread, I didnt want to derail his excellent thread (you may have said something in Marcus's thread also)and I thought it should be out in the open for all to read.

I would just like to expand on the previous quote and hear your thoughts on how personally achieve this, and in particular getting massive without getting fat.

kel doesnt do cardio or count cals.. he is an anomaly..

You can do intermittend fasting and carb cycling, it works great.. and its possible bulk and stay 10% year around..

Atm. I get 80% of my carbs immdiately after work out and I only eat protein and fat in my last 2 meals ;)

It is possible to not gain that much fat while bulking!! ;)

Im not saying it is the absolute best method to bulk, but it works great and makes life easy because you only eat during a 6 hour window post workout.. ;)

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Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

kel doesnt do cardio or count cals.. he is an anomaly..

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If he's a natural genetic freak, then thats me ****ed, coz i sure as hell aint, i gotta work dam hard for everything :-)

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Originally Posted by smileybeast

You can do intermittend fasting and carb cycling, it works great.. and its possible bulk and stay 10% year around..

Atm. I get 80% of my carbs immdiately after work out and I only eat protein and fat in my last 2 meals ;)

It is possible to not gain that much fat while bulking!! ;)

Im not saying it is the absolute best method to bulk, but it works great and makes life easy because you only eat during a 6 hour window post workout.. ;)

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thanks, Im already carb cycling. I guess this is working for you right? how much do you weigh?

FYI Intermittent fasting has been proven not to be good for bulking( this months Flex magazine-uk edition)

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Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

kel doesnt do cardio or count cals.. he is an anomaly..

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THIS!

he is allergic to the C-word

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Originally Posted by MR-FQ320

FYI Intermittent fasting has been proven not to be good for bulking( this months Flex magazine-uk edition)

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You're joking, right?

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thanks, Im already carb cycling. I guess this is working for you right? how much do you weigh?

FYI Intermittent fasting has been proven not to be good for bulking( this months Flex magazine-uk edition)

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It works great, I take blueberries and raspberry smoothie with applejuice together with my creatine postwork. It is lots of good carbs when my body actually needs it, and thats pretty much my whole carb intake on the most days...

I am on 72 kg atm. 8% bodyfat (while bulking)

I have even had some cheat meals lately, cake with family and icecream with my GF, but it doesn't cause that much of a trouble since im fasting 18 hours of the day anyway...

Im going to bulk up to 80 kg the next 8 months, training high volume 4-split for 2 hrs everyday ;)

I have not been writing much about my IF, but its based on leangains.com theory, check it out you may learn something cool!! ;)

Good luck with your lean bulk!!

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

You're joking, right?

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No, although I should have read it through, it's talking about cutting not bulking - but does go on to say how it stops muscle growth. I might have to type it all out if youi like :-) If i cant find a link

Second page

One article hardly "proves" anything, especially when the source is Flex Magazine, or any other bbing mag for that matter.

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Originally Posted by gbrice75

One article hardly "proves" anything, especially when the source is Flex Magazine, or any other bbing mag for that matter.

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You dont like Flex's nutritional advice ? The science part of it seemed logical enough.

I'm guessing you like IM?

hes just saying one persons views or opinion based off scientific facts does not prove any theory, for every article you read i can find one that "proves" the opposite

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Originally Posted by largerthannormal

hes just saying one persons views or opinion based off scientific facts does not prove any theory, for every article you read i can find one that "proves" the opposite

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Yeah, i guess, I never read up on IM, thats the first article I read, I know Kruegger switched from IM to carb cycling because his losses plateauxed, two and two together =........

But my other point is, how can you expect to grow if you starve your body for 16 hours a day?

I keep typing IM - imean IF

Double post

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Originally Posted by MR-FQ320

But my other point is, how can you expect to grow if you starve your body for 16 hours a day?

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You are hardly starving yourself.... If you eat your total macros for the day it doesn't matter when you eat them. here is a question for you..... Do you sleep 4-5 different times a day for 1.5-2 hours? Hell no that would be crazy. so why Should you have to spread your meals out???? Of course what works well for one wont work for everyone, but if you eat right and eat your macros from good food sources, work your ass off in the gym and do IF or carb cycling you can grow. throw in austin's otc fat loss sups, along with some bcaa's while fasting you will grow.

With regards to IF - I think it's a great tool for staying lean and cutting. Although I have no evidence for this, I just feel that it wouldn't be able to support huge amounts of lean muscle. I think you would plateau quickly with mass gaining.

I'm not taking anything away from it though, I've just yet to see a truly big monster that uses IF. They all eat small and regular. IF is definitely a great tool to stay lean year round.

Heath 48: I'm sorry your arguement has not won me over on IF, I dont think the body can adapt that quickly to conditions of feeding/fasting, muscles need to a constant supply of fuel to grow, another study showed that protein intake is best taken in smaller amounts more frequently to get the most availability from it - ergo eat little and often.

With IF are you supposed to train in fasted or fed state?

I love carb cycling- I have not got a bad word to say about it - It's magic !

I'm glad you chimed in kreugger :-)

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Originally Posted by MR-FQ320

I'm glad you chimed in kreugger :-)

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Any time! Lol.

I can see carb cycling having more potential for both bulking and cutting. Personally I'm preferring it so far to IF. It's more versatile. Just my 2cents.

Ps - stop spelling my name wrong! ;) lol.

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Originally Posted by krugerr

Any time! Lol.

I can see carb cycling having more potential for both bulking and cutting. Personally I'm preferring it so far to IF. It's more versatile. Just my 2cents.

Ps - stop spelling my name wrong! ;) lol.

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Oops sorry dude lol

You may build muscle but not bulk. How many lbs a year do you put on? You have to eat tons of food, way beyond your guys "macro counting" to truely gain size. Is that you in your avy ?

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Originally Posted by smileybeast

You can do intermittend fasting and carb cycling, it works great.. and its possible bulk and stay 10% year around..

Atm. I get 80% of my carbs immdiately after work out and I only eat protein and fat in my last 2 meals ;)

It is possible to not gain that much fat while bulking!! ;)

Im not saying it is the absolute best method to bulk, but it works great and makes life easy because you only eat during a 6 hour window post workout.. ;)

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Originally Posted by BG

You may build muscle but not bulk. How many lbs a year do you put on? You have to eat tons of food, way beyond your guys "macro counting" to truely gain size. Is that you in your avy ?

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I'm done with bulking diets, but ^ this statement is very true. You're not going to put on large amounts of mass without eating like a beast. It's how the body works.

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Originally Posted by MR-FQ320

Heath 48: I'm sorry your arguement has not won me over on IF, I dont think the body can adapt that quickly to conditions of feeding/fasting, muscles need to a constant supply of fuel to grow, another study showed that protein intake is best taken in smaller amounts more frequently to get the most availability from it - ergo eat little and often.

With IF are you supposed to train in fasted or fed state?

I love carb cycling- I have not got a bad word to say about it - It's magic !

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#1 that is your opinion doesn't mean its right hahaha
#2 If you eat during a 6 hour period you don't digest all that food the second you stop eating.... your body is still breaking down food for another 6 hours or more.
#3 "this study" and the 100 other ones for that matter that say small meals/amounts of protein.. what is your/their idea of small amounts of protein?
#4 as far as training fasted or fed I have done both and can personally say that for me it depends on the time of day it is. In the morning i train fasted and take bcaa's pre and intra workout. If i train at night I personally like training fed. like i said everyone is different.

All in all no one can "win" you over just try it, see if it works. I like it opposed to carb cycling, and opposed to eating all day. it keeps me honest to my diet. And as far as huge guys doing IF? the reason why is at 275 pounds and 10% BF they would be eating around 4000 calories a day. try eating that in 4-6 hours lol

smiley, one of kel's legs weigh 72 kg.
Now...shhhhh everyone. Let's hear from "the man". ;)

Ok, MR-FQ pm'd me and advised me of this thread. I pm'd back with this response that I've pasted below:

Oh boy. I am probably the last person here you want to talk to about diet. I have never counted a calorie, carb or gram of protein in my life. Ever. I will probably have to have a ghost writer for this. It's why I barely ever venture into the nutrition forum. Training would be more my forte and we talk about that in Marcus's Diary.

It very well may be a short thread!

kel

I seriously do appreciate the compliment but what I said above holds true. I've never counted any of those things. I'm a natural ectomorph and any gains I make are just solid. It's been that way all my life. Matter of fact back when I used to compete I would even gain weight going into a show as that was really the only time I cycled then (pre-contest,) the opposite of most people. Remember back then cycling was not a year round sport as it can be for many now.

I honestly do not give much credit to AAS for building what I have so far. It's been a lifestyle of discipline and training. I never depended on AAS to do this for me nor did anything I've ever done compare to some of the amazing cycles guys do today. Although I'd like to see what one would do just once as I do think about competing again one day, maybe. In my opinion, way to many people only really train hard when cycling. This is bullshit and not the way to make slow and steady gains. You can make great and continued progress when off cycle.

I told this story here before but to sum up, I met Shawn Ray years ago in Atlantic City when he won Nationals and we spent a good amount of time talking before and after the show and even communicated for awhile afterward. He made the comment which was also quoted in mags later on that went something to the effect of: "the day I count calories, carbs, etc is the day I quit, as it will take the fun out of it." It always seemed to ring true for me as well. For me my constant goal has been simply to gain LBM. I've never "bulked" in the classic sense.

Anyway, we have plenty of diet guru's here that are far more qualified than I am to answer those type questions. I am not in the same realm as them when it comes to that stuff. Training I'll help anyone with but I'd prefer you post those questions in "Marcus's Diary" so he and I can both chime in and help.

Told ya it would be a short thread.....

kel

How many truly massive guys (like the thread title says) are advocates of any of the IF or IIFYM type diets? None that I know of.....

IF has its place for some people imo but there's a reason it's always the ripped guys who aren't carrying a ton of mass that are the IF fans.

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Originally Posted by Heath48

#1 that is your opinion doesn't mean its right hahaha
#2 If you eat during a 6 hour period you don't digest all that food the second you stop eating.... your body is still breaking down food for another 6 hours or more.
#3 "this study" and the 100 other ones for that matter that say small meals/amounts of protein.. what is your/their idea of small amounts of protein?
#4 as far as training fasted or fed I have done both and can personally say that for me it depends on the time of day it is. In the morning i train fasted and take bcaa's pre and intra workout. If i train at night I personally like training fed. like i said everyone is different.

All in all no one can "win" you over just try it, see if it works. I like it opposed to carb cycling, and opposed to eating all day. it keeps me honest to my diet. And as far as huge guys doing IF? the reason why is at 275 pounds and 10% BF they would be eating around 4000 calories a day. try eating that in 4-6 hours lol

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Hate to break it to you but the guys that are at 275lbs are eating WAYYYY more than 4000 cals a day. I eat almost eat that every day and prob go over that some days and still cant break 200lbs..... Hell Id be happy with 190 @ 10% at this point.

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Originally Posted by canesfan804

Hate to break it to you but the guys that are at 275lbs are eating WAYYYY more than 4000 cals a day. I eat almost eat that every day and prob go over that some days and still cant break 200lbs..... Hell Id be happy with 190 @ 10% at this point.

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Isn't THAT the truth. Steroids alone won't make you big - nutrition will. Not everyone needs (or should eat) 5000-8000 cals like the big pros do but too many guys simply don't eat enough or eat poorly and the bulk they accumulate more often than not is fat. :(

Oh and just to be clear I do like IF and used it to cut BF for about 8-10 weeks and saw a huge difference. As for trying to bulk on IF maybe if you weigh 180 @ 6' tall you can put a touch on but I had a hard time getting all my meals in once I upped the calories back up. Thats why I have gone back to carb cycling I dont want to bulk anymore just grow at a nice steady rate, even if its slower....

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Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Isn't THAT the truth. Steroids alone won't make you big - nutrition will. Not everyone needs (or should eat) 5000-8000 cals like the big pros do but too many guys simply don't eat enough or eat poorly and the bulk they accumulate more often than not is fat. :(

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Yea MI I couldnt imagine eating what all those guys eat. I mean I can hit that calorie mark but its gonna be cheese cake and blackberry cobbler a la mode!!! Not gonna be much muscle off that. LOL

My feeling is that change is good on several fronts.

(1) As we all know the body can easily reach a state of stasis where most any change in training will cause an improvement for a period of time.
(2) Its so easy to get bored with something that any new particularly novel change will cause a major improvement through a placebo effect.

These are several of the things I feel contribute to the IF craze.

In addition to this so many people who try to eat like a pro are simply not doing the other things needed to take advantage of eating every few hours. Its really easy to get a stale stomach/digestive tract when you eat 6-8 times per day. IMHO to implement a super high protein 6-8 meal approach you will often need to stay on top of digestive enzymes as well as supps to maintain digestive flora, add to this the need to maintain a high level of activity and a brutal workout schedule and its easy to see why so many are not having success by eating like an IFBB pro while training like a casual lifter.

Conversely doing an IF feed you smash your gut for a 6 hour window use what you need then have 18 hours to pass the excess, this means if you are overeating in comparison to your needs you will have a lot less trouble dealing with the oversupply of nutrition.

Conversely if you really are taking an all inclusive approach to gaining mass and are using this technique, then assuming that you have the metabolism either naturally or with AAS usage to support the amount of protein you intake and have the lifestyle and workout schedule to support 6-8 meals a day then I feel you will see your best results by eating 6-8 meals per day.

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Originally Posted by canesfan804

Hate to break it to you but the guys that are at 275lbs are eating WAYYYY more than 4000 cals a day. I eat almost eat that every day and prob go over that some days and still cant break 200lbs..... Hell Id be happy with 190 @ 10% at this point.

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huh. How tall are you?

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Originally Posted by canesfan804

Hate to break it to you but the guys that are at 275lbs are eating WAYYYY more than 4000 cals a day. I eat almost eat that every day and prob go over that some days and still cant break 200lbs..... Hell Id be happy with 190 @ 10% at this point.

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ok smart ass i was making a point that its alot of calories to fit into a small window. that would be a general calculation seeing i was making an example based on 275 pounds at 10% bodyfat

247.5 LBMx 15=3712.5 calories so that would be a rough estimate to make an example out of.

the point is the OP originally said that being HUGE and doing IF is not effective and i attempted to give a general reason as to why it wouldn't work. next time i will be sure to consult with you on how many calories the imaginary 275 pound guy that we know nothing about would consume in a day

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Originally Posted by austinite

huh. How tall are you?

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I think him and gix share jeans. :)

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Originally Posted by canesfan804

Yea MI I couldnt imagine eating what all those guys eat. I mean I can hit that calorie mark but its gonna be cheese cake and blackberry cobbler a la mode!!! Not gonna be much muscle off that. LOL

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Mmmmm cheese cake. I could put down 8,000 cals a day with my sweet tooth but is look like the guy on the left:



Attachment 140907

guys theres no right or wrong answer. we all have our own opinions.. do what works for you and your goals..

personally i agree that if u want to grow like a pro and carry the size of a pro u probably have to diet, take drugs, and lift like a pro.. thats why they do what they do, because it works. the competition at that level has no room for major mistakes.. :)

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Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

guys theres no right or wrong answer. we all have our own opinions.. do what works for you and your goals..

personally i agree that if u want to grow like a pro and carry the size of a pro u probably have to diet, take drugs, and lift like a pro.. thats why they do what they do, because it works. the competition at that level has no room for major mistakes.. :)

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Actually, this would be the right answer.

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Originally Posted by MR-FQ320

You dont like Flex's nutritional advice ? The science part of it seemed logical enough.

I'm guessing you like IM?

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It's not Flex in particular, although I tend to question everything I read in any bodybuilding mag (whose prime focus is to sell you supplements, not help you achieve your goals so you don't need their mags anymore).

IM? It's the only way for me! :lol:

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Originally Posted by largerthannormal

hes just saying one persons views or opinion based off scientific facts does not prove any theory, for every article you read i can find one that "proves" the opposite

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^^ bingo

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Originally Posted by MR-FQ320

Yeah, i guess, I never read up on IM, thats the first article I read, I know Kruegger switched from IM to carb cycling because his losses plateauxed, two and two together =........

But my other point is, how can you expect to grow if you starve your body for 16 hours a day?

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Define 'starve'. Literally, research what it really means to 'stave' the body, then come back to whether you really think that can happen in 16 hours.

But to answer the question - you're overfeeding in the 'feeding' window. IF (depending on how you run it) can be looked at as daily cutting/bulking cycles. You're eating a hyopcaloric diet in the fasting phase, and a hypercaloric one in the feeding phase. Daily.

Having said all of this - I am not necessarily an advocate of IF'ing to gain mass, nor have I ever tried personally. So I don't want it to come off as if I'm arguing that it's great for gaining, because I can't personally make that claim. What I did take issue with was the blanket statement "IF has been proven not to be good for bulking....". As I said, one article or person's opinion doesn't sum up a complete (and popular) approach to dieting. I'm not a fan of 'absolutes' like this.

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Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

How many truly massive guys (like the thread title says) are advocates of any of the IF or IIFYM type diets? None that I know of.....

IF has its place for some people imo but there's a reason it's always the ripped guys who aren't carrying a ton of mass that are the IF fans.

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That's a fair observation, not one I can really argue with - but they do exist. Serge Nubret was a fan:

http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/...-nubret-03.jpg


http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/...ce75/serge.jpg

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Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

guys theres no right or wrong answer. we all have our own opinions.. do what works for you and your goals..

personally i agree that if u want to grow like a pro and carry the size of a pro u probably have to diet, take drugs, and lift like a pro.. thats why they do what they do, because it works. the competition at that level has no room for major mistakes.. :)

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^^ this. Pretty much /endthread!

Never bought a bb magazine