when lean bulking no carbs after 5 ???

[flyguy6661]

so lean bulking however i want to stay as lean as possible so i was thinking no carbs after 5 however from when i wake up till then il have 3 high carb meals, roughly 300g before 5pm. then after just protein/fats & greens ????

[Docd187123]

I thought the rule was no carbs after 5:03pm EST?

Lol, on a serious note, why do you believe having carbs after a certain time during the day would affect your lean bulking goal?

[Schwarzenegger]

I have carbs up until I sleep. Stomach is flat in the morning and muscles fuller

[hellomycognomen]

I thought the rule was no carbs after 5:03pm EST?

Lol!^^^^^

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I don't think it matters, I havent seen any articles validating excess fat storage with carbs before bed vs not.

However if your body has already replenished lost glycogen stores the following chain of events is very real:

Carbs --> insulin spike --> lipoprotein lipase --> fat storage and fat loss prevention

But if you eat proteins in your meals the protein will stimulate glucagon which directly counters insulin.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, looks like you have your diet set so whatever you eat Im sure its clean and healthy, I can't foresee you scarfing down king size snickers before bed. lol!

BTW greens are carbs........just saying.

-Cheers

[Docd187123]

Lol!^^^^^

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I don't think it matters, I havent seen any articles validating excess fat storage with carbs before bed vs not.

However if your body has already replenished lost glycogen stores the following chain of events is very real:

Carbs --> insulin spike --> lipoprotein lipase --> fat storage and fat loss prevention

But if you eat proteins in your meals the protein will stimulate glucagon which directly counters insulin.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, looks like you have your diet set so whatever you eat Im sure its clean and healthy, I can't foresee you scarfing down king size snickers before bed. lol!

BTW greens are carbs........just saying.

-Cheers

Im not sure I completely agree with this:

1) protein itself, especially whey, is highly insulinogenic so if insulin spikes are the reason for fat loss prevention than protein would do the same.

2) the concomitant intake of protein AND carbs will only serve to increase the insulin response to a meal more than eating carbs in isolation will.

3) the timeline of carbs to fat loss prevention is true but only half the picture and a small dot on the timeline. The body is ALWAYS alternating between fat loss and storage. Simple points in time are not important to control rather the trend over time is what's important.

4) in healthy individuals, no endogenous insulin response can effectively prohibit fat loss if in a caloric deficit. Cals > carbs or insulin when it comes to fat loss.

5) insulin isn't even the most important hormone in regards to fat storage. That spot is reserved for ASP (acylation-stimulating protein). Why people tend to focus solely on carbs or solely on one side of the equation i don't understand.

6) while Caucasian does counteract insulin in many ways it will only really affect liver metabolism not fat cell fuel metabolism:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 May;86(5):2085-9. Links
Physiological levels of glucagon do not influence lipolysis in abdominal adipose tissue as assessed by microdialysis.

Gravholt CH, Møller N, Jensen MD, Christiansen JS, Schmitz O.
Department of Endocrinology M and Medical Research Laboratories, Arhus University Hospital, Denmark. [email protected]
To determine whether glucagon stimulates lipolysis in adipose tissue, seven healthy young male volunteers were studied, with indwelling microdialysis catheters placed sc in abdominal adipose tissue. Subjects were studied three times: 1) during euglucagonemia (EG; glucagon infusion rate, 0.5 ng/kg.min); 2) during hyperglucagonemia (HG; (glucagon infusion rate, 1.5 ng/kg.min); and 3) during EG and a concomitant glucose infusion mimicking the glucose profile from the day of HG (EG+G). Somatostatin (450 microg/h) was infused to suppress hormonal secretion, and replacement doses of insulin and GH were administered. Sampling was done every 30 min for 420 min. Baseline circulating values of insulin, C-peptide, glucagon, GH, glycerol, and free fatty acids were comparable in all three conditions. During EG and EG+G, plasma glucagon was maintained at fasting level (20-40 ng/L); whereas, during HG, it increased (110-130 ng/L). Interstitial concentrations of glycerol were similar in the three conditions [30,870 +/- 5,946 (EG) vs. 31,074 +/- 7,092 (HG) vs. 29,451 +/- 6,217 (EG+G) micromol/L.120 min, P = 0.98]. Plasma glycerol (ANOVA, P = 0.5) and free fatty acids (ANOVA, P = 0.3) were comparable during the different glucagon challenges. We conclude that HG per se does not increase interstitial glycerol (and thus lipolysis) in abdominal sc adipose tissue; nor does modest hyperglycemia, during basal insulinemia and glucagonemia, influence indices of abdominal sc lipolysis.

[Schwarzenegger]

Im not sure I completely agree with this:

1) protein itself, especially whey, is highly insulinogenic so if insulin spikes are the reason for fat loss prevention than protein would do the same.

2) the concomitant intake of protein AND carbs will only serve to increase the insulin response to a meal more than eating carbs in isolation will.

3) the timeline of carbs to fat loss prevention is true but only half the picture and a small dot on the timeline. The body is ALWAYS alternating between fat loss and storage. Simple points in time are not important to control rather the trend over time is what's important.

4) in healthy individuals, no endogenous insulin response can effectively prohibit fat loss if in a caloric deficit. Cals > carbs or insulin when it comes to fat loss.

5) insulin isn't even the most important hormone in regards to fat storage. That spot is reserved for ASP (acylation-stimulating protein). Why people tend to focus solely on carbs or solely on one side of the equation i don't understand.

6) while Caucasian does counteract insulin in many ways it will only really affect liver metabolism not fat cell fuel metabolism:

This x2

Ya idk where dude got protein stimulates glucagon release. Protein alone mildly stimulates insulin release. Carbs stimulate an insulin spike.

Either way both stimulate insulin release in few or large amounts.

[--->>405<<---]

good points Doc

id also like to note im currently cutting and losing fat with carbs as high as 420g(high day) 320g (training day) 290g (non-training day)...

people tend to greatly over think their nutrition IMO.

cals in<cals out is the primary factor. adequate protein is another factor for preserving LBM.

[Docd187123]

good points Doc

id also like to note im currently cutting and losing fat with carbs as high as 420g(high day) 320g (training day) 290g (non-training day)...

people tend to greatly over think their nutrition IMO.

cals in<cals out is the primary factor. adequate protein is another factor for preserving LBM.

Those carbs are making you SWOLE brother. You're looking great

[hellomycognomen]

Ya idk where dude got protein stimulates glucagon release.

My source:






Nash Jocic is a pro whose opinion I value highly and respect. You may disagree that is fine.

In the end everyone is different and may do what they wish.

-Cheers

[Docd187123]

My source:






Nash Jocic is a pro whose opinion I value highly and respect. You may disagree that is fine.

In the end everyone is different and may do what they wish.

-Cheers

You're right that protein will stimulate a glucagon release but so will exercise and a drop in plasma glucose/insulin levels. My point was that worrying about insulin and glucagon in anyone but a physique competitor or unhealthy individual (diabetic, etc) is pointless since no amount of insulin response (again in a healthy person) will stop fat loss if eating in a calorie deficit with the right macros.

[slfmade]

Im not sure I completely agree with this:

1) protein itself, especially whey, is highly insulinogenic so if insulin spikes are the reason for fat loss prevention than protein would do the same.

2) the concomitant intake of protein AND carbs will only serve to increase the insulin response to a meal more than eating carbs in isolation will.

3) the timeline of carbs to fat loss prevention is true but only half the picture and a small dot on the timeline. The body is ALWAYS alternating between fat loss and storage. Simple points in time are not important to control rather the trend over time is what's important.

4) in healthy individuals, no endogenous insulin response can effectively prohibit fat loss if in a caloric deficit. Cals > carbs or insulin when it comes to fat loss.

5) insulin isn't even the most important hormone in regards to fat storage. That spot is reserved for ASP (acylation-stimulating protein). Why people tend to focus solely on carbs or solely on one side of the equation i don't understand.

6) while Caucasian does counteract insulin in many ways it will only really affect liver metabolism not fat cell fuel metabolism:

Do African and Asians counteract insult in only a few ways?

[Docd187123]

Do African and Asians counteract insult in only a few ways?

Lmao nice catch and damn autocorrect. Should read "while glucagon..."

[Schwarzenegger]

Well regardless of a pro's opinion glucagon is a hormone released when fasting. It promotes lipolysis, gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis (all catabolic pathways).

When u ingest protein, that stimulates an insulin release. So saying glucagon is released in response to protein is not entirely accurate but minorly correct in that glucagon is secreted in response to alanine and arginine peptides only (and other things just not any other protein peptides) and even then not in large amounts. There are still 19 other amino acids (protein) of the total 21 that is not accounted for by glucagon. The overall effect is an anabolic response due to insulin secretion upon introduction to the 19 other protein peptides.

As doc said earlier protein is insulinogenic. Insulin is anabolic. Glucagon is catabolic in a general sense. If protein was ingested and promoted a catabolic response, wouldn't make much sense, since protein is needed to repair muscle ie. An anabolic response.

So this is not an opinion, this is based on actual science and not broscience from a pro. I'm sure other things the pro says are legit as I havent seen the youtube vid yet.

This is the biochem they teach us in med school albeit in a simplified sense.

[hellomycognomen]

Doc & Schwarzenegger I appreciate the constructive advice, I am here to learn.

Thanks for your input.

-Cheers

[Docd187123]

Well regardless of a pro's opinion glucagon is a hormone released when fasting. It promotes lipolysis, gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis (all catabolic pathways).

When u ingest protein, that stimulates an insulin release. So saying glucagon is released in response to protein is not entirely accurate but minorly correct in that glucagon is secreted in response to alanine and arginine peptides only (and other things just not any other protein peptides) and even then not in large amounts. There are still 19 other amino acids (protein) of the total 21 that is not accounted for by glucagon. The overall effect is an anabolic response due to insulin secretion upon introduction to the 19 other protein peptides.

As doc said earlier protein is insulinogenic. Insulin is anabolic. Glucagon is catabolic in a general sense. If protein was ingested and promoted a catabolic response, wouldn't make much sense, since protein is needed to repair muscle ie. An anabolic response.

So this is not an opinion, this is based on actual science and not broscience from a pro. I'm sure other things the pro says are legit as I havent seen the youtube vid yet.

This is the biochem they teach us in med school albeit in a simplified sense.

This is a truly great post!!!

One thing I'd like to add about the glucagon response to protein is that it also due to create balance. Glucagon is in some ways the equal but opposite response to insulin. It plays a large role in plasma glucose control.

An example would be eating a high protein meal without carbs. protein is insulinogenic and it stimulates an insulin response from the body. But bc protein isn't rapidly converted to glucose like carbs are this leads to a potentially dangerous scenario...too much insulin and low blood glucose levels of left unchecked will lead to hypoglycemia and possible death. Glucagon counteracts this by not allowing glucose levels to drop too low (at least in healthy individuals).

[Docd187123]

Doc & Schwarzenegger I appreciate the constructive advice, I am here to learn.

Thanks for your input.

-Cheers

Not a problem brother. If you'd like an interesting read on the role of glucagon here's an article by an EXCELLENT author and a lead researcher in the field of metabolism, obesity, and nutrition:

Whole Health Source: Glucagon, Dietary Protein, and Low-Carbohydrate Diets

[Schwarzenegger]

Doc & Schwarzenegger I appreciate the constructive advice, I am here to learn.

Thanks for your input.

-Cheers

No problem man. We all here to learn day by day.

I watched the video, and everything he said in the video was correct up until 4:25 where he says high protein meal = high glucagon levels.

This is incorrect as I mentioned earlier. But everything else in the video he says is correct in terms of the actions of glucagon in regards to fat loss.

Only way to increase glucagon levels is to fast or inject it (only done for diagnostic tests).

[Schwarzenegger]

This is a truly great post!!!

One thing I'd like to add about the glucagon response to protein is that it also due to create balance. Glucagon is in some ways the equal but opposite response to insulin. It plays a large role in plasma glucose control.

An example would be eating a high protein meal without carbs. protein is insulinogenic and it stimulates an insulin response from the body. But bc protein isn't rapidly converted to glucose like carbs are this leads to a potentially dangerous scenario...too much insulin and low blood glucose levels of left unchecked will lead to hypoglycemia and possible death. Glucagon counteracts this by not allowing glucose levels to drop too low (at least in healthy individuals).

thanks doc. Ya its all about a balance.

hellomycognomen, its also not cut and dry like only insulin is secreted and no glucagon. Its a mix, for example, ingestion of high protein/carb meal = insulin 95% glucagon 5% release (i just made those #'s up but I'm sure u get it).

The same way testosterone is counteracted with estrogen in males and the ratio is maintained (high test/low estro)

But in fasting, for example, it would be the opposite (glucagon 95% insulin 5%, again made up #'s) until blood glucose levels rose by gluconeogenesis, lipolysis, and glycogenolysis. Then as blood glucose levels rise more and more insulin would be secreted to utilize the new glucose from whichever source.

Thank God the ratio doesn't reverse for testerosterone and estrogen to high estrogen and low test, hahah

Main point is your body is secreting hormones to maintain steady levels of glucose in the blood and secretes hormones to reduce glucose or increase glucose. Its a balancing act with ratios of each secreted in healthy individuals.

The true way to fat loss is cals in< cals out with high protein to maintain muscle as --->>405<<--- said earlier

[hellomycognomen]

Whole Health Source: Glucagon, Dietary Protein, and Low-Carbohydrate Diets

Just got done reading the article, highly educating, thanks man I appreciate the info.

-Respect


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thanks doc. Ya its all about a balance.

hellomycognomen, its also not cut and dry like only insulin is secreted and no glucagon. Its a mix, for example, ingestion of high protein/carb meal = insulin 95% glucagon 5% release (i just made those #'s up but I'm sure u get it).

The same way testosterone is counteracted with estrogen in males and the ratio is maintained (high test/low estro)

But in fasting, for example, it would be the opposite (glucagon 95% insulin 5%, again made up #'s) until blood glucose levels rose by gluconeogenesis, lipolysis, and glycogenolysis. Then as blood glucose levels rise more and more insulin would be secreted to utilize the new glucose from whichever source.

Thank God the ratio doesn't reverse for testerosterone and estrogen to high estrogen and low test, hahah

Main point is your body is secreting hormones to maintain steady levels of glucose in the blood and secretes hormones to reduce glucose or increase glucose. Its a balancing act with ratios of each secreted in healthy individuals.

The true way to fat loss is cals in< cals out with high protein to maintain muscle as --->>405<<--- said earlier

Right on man, thanks again for the knowledge.

-Respect

[Docd187123]

Just got done reading the article, highly educating, thanks man I appreciate the info.

-Respect


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Right on man, thanks again for the knowledge.

-Respect

I recommend you read anything with that author's name on it. His work is top notch.