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Thread: How to cut on cycle questions - DIET

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    How to cut on cycle questions - DIET

    So I've recently changed my mind on how I'm gonna run my upcoming cycle. I was originally gonna run a lean bulk but decided I would rather cut. I've cut many times before off cycle and I've always been successful, but this will be the first time I've ever cut on cycle so I have a few questions. First some stats.

    32yr old male
    5'9
    215lb's
    ~15%BF - (I've been on a carb cycle for the last couple of weeks and won't be starting my cycle until I hit ~12% - shouldn't take me longer than 6 more weeks)
    Training - Many years
    Cycle Exp. Exp running Test P and Mast P - also clen and T3
    Goal - The only times I've ever got under 10%BF was natty and I was pretty small. I've got a good base now and I'd like to get below 10% - Pushing for 8%

    Also - Here's the Cycle I'll be running
    Test Prop - 200mg/EOD 8 weeks
    NPP - 100mg/EOD 8 weeks
    Var - 80mg/ED 8 weeks
    Clen w/KETO - 3weeks ON - 2 weeks OFF - 3 weeks ON
    Possible T3 80-100mcg/ED - 8weeks

    Stane - 12.5-25mg/ED
    HCG - 250iu 2x/wk
    NAC - 1800mg/ED
    Caber on hand

    PCT - Nolva/Clomid

    QUESTIONS

    In the past when I've cut I've either used a standard 500 calorie deficit 40/40/20, Carb Cycle, IF, or a combination Carb Cycle/IF approach.

    1. What has been your most successful dieting method for cutting on cycle?

    2. We all know on cycle we can get away with a greater deficit without losing LBM - I know this is gonna be highly based on the individual but what do you believe is the greatest deficit a person can run on cycle without losing LBM or at least keeping it to a minimum? I'm mainly looking for a starting point and realize this will require tweaking once started.

    3. Damn it. I had more but can't remember now. I'll ask them when I think of them.

    Thanks guys.
    Last edited by slfmade; 03-23-2014 at 09:46 PM.

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    Let's try a bump for the day crowd!!!!

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    Looks like you have your cycle ironed out.

    I will say this, if it ain't broke don't fix it!

    I will let the pros chime in but if it worked before, it will work again!

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    gonebluffn is offline Associate Member
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    I definitely wouldn't go over 500 , I tweak my protein up and lower carbs and fat intake. Is their a reason you are running Var EOD ?

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    Docd187123 is offline Banned
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    If you're using keto with clen there's no need to cycle off of it. I don't personally like clen but love T3 so I'd include that before clen any day.

    1) all my diets have been successful. It's not the diet that determines succes but the adherence to the few general guidelines/rules of nutrition. I've tried keto, carb cycling, IF, DCA/IIFYM, clean diets, dirty diets, you name it. I suggest NOT basing your macros off percentages of total calories as it can leave you deficient at times. Rather use these numbers based of BW and lbm:
    PRO: 1g/lb LBM minimum
    FAT: .3g/lb BW minimum

    Remaining cals can be more protein, more fat, carbs, or whatever combo of all 3.

    2) lbm will be lost during any cut, AAS or not. We simply attempt to minimize the loss. A 10% deficit is considered mild. 15-20% is moderate, and >20% is aggressive. The more aggressive the deficit the greater the possibility of losing LBM but the flip argument is you'd be dieting less. The deficit you run is dependent on you...can you handle extreme deficits mentally, can you maintain intensity with bigger deficits, are you prone to losing LBM faster on a greater deficit, etc. You could even try a PSMF-type diet and lose up to 2lbs of weight a week with relatively little muscle loss. It's up to you. Seeing your cycle i think you can get away with more moderate or aggressive deficit. I'd probably start around 15%.

    3) when you remember it lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonebluffn View Post
    I definitely wouldn't go over 500 , I tweak my protein up and lower carbs and fat intake. Is their a reason you are running Var EOD ?
    Nice catch. I meant ED...fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    If you're using keto with clen there's no need to cycle off of it. I don't personally like clen but love T3 so I'd include that before clen any day.

    1) all my diets have been successful. It's not the diet that determines succes but the adherence to the few general guidelines/rules of nutrition. I've tried keto, carb cycling, IF, DCA/IIFYM, clean diets, dirty diets, you name it. I suggest NOT basing your macros off percentages of total calories as it can leave you deficient at times. Rather use these numbers based of BW and lbm:
    PRO: 1g/lb LBM minimum
    FAT: .3g/lb BW minimum

    Remaining cals can be more protein, more fat, carbs, or whatever combo of all 3.

    That's pretty much how I do it. It just so happens that it's close to a 40/40/20. It's actually 45/35/20.

    2) lbm will be lost during any cut, AAS or not. We simply attempt to minimize the loss. A 10% deficit is considered mild. 15-20% is moderate, and >20% is aggressive. The more aggressive the deficit the greater the possibility of losing LBM but the flip argument is you'd be dieting less. The deficit you run is dependent on you...can you handle extreme deficits mentally, can you maintain intensity with bigger deficits, are you prone to losing LBM faster on a greater deficit, etc. You could even try a PSMF-type diet and lose up to 2lbs of weight a week with relatively little muscle loss. It's up to you. Seeing your cycle i think you can get away with more moderate or aggressive deficit. I'd probably start around 15%.

    I more than likely will run a more aggressive approach. I had never heard of PSMF, but looked into it and it looks interesting. My research took me to some Lyle Mcdonald books. I might have to buy a couple. I'll look into it more. Have you ever run UD2.0 on cycle?

    3) when you remember it lol
    See bolds

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    Have not done UD2.0 on cycle. I was bulking on my cycle so I was eating everything in sight lol. Lyle has a great book about modified fasting diets. I have it on PDF. Just remember to adjust your training and cardio if you run an aggressive deficit. Too much is counter productive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Have not done UD2.0 on cycle. I was bulking on my cycle so I was eating everything in sight lol. Lyle has a great book about modified fasting diets. I have it on PDF. Just remember to adjust your training and cardio if you run an aggressive deficit. Too much is counter productive.
    I'm assuming you're talking about "The rapid fat loss handbook"? I'm trying to find that one right now. Since last night I've been able to get UD2.0 and The stubborn fat loss solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slfmade View Post
    I'm assuming you're talking about "The rapid fat loss handbook"? I'm trying to find that one right now. Since last night I've been able to get UD2.0 and The stubborn fat loss solution.
    Yes that's the one. I found a free PDF link somewhere online. Just google the book title and PDF it should come up. Stubborn fat one is for when you're already pretty lean, rapid fat loss one is for PSMF-type diet, and UD 2.0 is his version of keto I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    If you're using keto with clen there's no need to cycle off of it. I don't personally like clen but love T3 so I'd include that before clen any day.
    I forgot to address this earlier.

    I personally love clen , and have used it more times than I care to admit. It's a part of every cut and prime I've done over the last several years. I've also used Keto multiple times. That being said I'm not 100% sure that keto fully upregulates B2 receptors. The is most certainly due to my lack of understanding the difference between Receptor desensitization and Receptor downregulation.

    All I know is that upon restart after 2 weeks off I feel sides again, but with continued use of keto and clen after a period of about 3 weeks, all sides are gone. From my experience keto seems to extend the amount of time I can be on by about 1 week before I need to take a break.

    Please impart your wisdom upon me. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by slfmade View Post
    I forgot to address this earlier.

    I personally love clen , and have used it more times than I care to admit. It's a part of every cut and prime I've done over the last several years. I've also used Keto multiple times. That being said I'm not 100% sure that keto fully upregulates B2 receptors. The is most certainly due to my lack of understanding the difference between Receptor desensitization and Receptor downregulation.

    All I know is that upon restart after 2 weeks off I feel sides again, but with continued use of keto and clen after a period of about 3 weeks, all sides are gone. From my experience keto seems to extend the amount of time I can be on by about 1 week before I need to take a break.

    Please impart your wisdom upon me. LOL
    This is AR-R 's post about keto:

    Quote Originally Posted by ar-r View Post
    Ketotifen has 2 primary effects. First off it is an h1 antihistamine. There are 2 types of antihistamines, h1 and h2. A primary difference is h1 antihistamines cross the blood brain barrier in research subjects and are known to induce drowsiness as a result of this. Ketotifen, being an h1 antihistamine is known to induce this effect. Secondly it is a mast cell stabilizer. Mast cells are cells that are rich in histamine. They are activated via calcium channel transfer; ketotifen blocks this calcium channel transfer. This is of particular note as clenbuterol , via cAMP, activates this calcium channel transfer.

    The synergy between clenbuterol and ketotifen in research subjects is complicated to say the least. I mean in all reality they BOTH exhibit antihistamine effects, yet while displaying a synergy at making the other more effective. Just as ketotifen prevents the down regulation of beta 2 receptors, clenbuterol prevents the very same effect in histamine receptors! Luckily for our purposes there is a definitive study which proves that the addition of ketotifen increases the effectiveness of clenbuterol in research subjects. There is also a study which proves its effects on prevention of down regulation of b2 adrenergic receptors. Sometimes science makes it a bit easier. Published, peer reviewed studies proving the effectiveness and synergy of 2 research compounds.

    Now I would like to address the myth regarding Benadryl and down regulation of b2 receptors. By the way that is exactly what it is, a myth. There is not one available study showing a synergy or effect like this when using Benadryl with clenbuterol or any other beta 2 adrenergic agonist. In fact the logic used to justify it, other than it (Benadryl) is an antihistamine as well, is total nonsense. The original proponent of this “theory” put out there that Benadryl, because of its effects on phospholipid membrane that many b2 receptors are embedded in. You see he felt that by “protecting” this membrane the b2 receptor could be prevented from down regulating. However nothing could be further from the truth, the down regulation of the b2 receptor has much to do with calcium channel transfer and direct b2 receptor stimulation. The h1 antihistamine effects and the mast cell stabilization effects of ketotifen essentially work to halt this upon administration to our research subject. In fact not only is it halted it is to a degree, undone. The only effect benadryl would exert based on its effects on the phospholipid membrane would be in the form of a direct impact on aldosterone , which induces sodium retention , potassium release, water retention , and effects blood pressure. One would think that since urinary retention and effects on potassium release are well documented as side effects of benadryl administration the person who came up with this “theory “might have put 2 and 2 together. Sadly he did not and the myth that bendaryl is useful for this purpose began and has taken on a life of its own.

    So what will ketotifen do with regards to our research that no other compound will? Well when administered with a beta 2 adrenergic agents such as clenbuterol or albuterol it will allow the compound to remain effective for a longer duration, at a lower effective dose. This eliminates the need for dangerously administering very high doses to research subjects which may come along with higher risks and undesirable side effects. It also allows us to administer the beta 2 agonist continuously without a reduction in effectiveness. This will lead to us observing much faster results in our research than if we were required to stop administration or adapt a 2 week on, 2 week off protocol to our research subjects.

    Ketotifen is a must have when using a beta 2 agonist in your research. Examples of these would be clenbuterol or albuterol. Its benefits are so great there is literally no reason not to use it in your research in these particular circumstances.


    Refs:
    *"Diphenhydramine Side Effects". Drugs.com. Retrieved 2009-04-06.
    *J Pharmacol Sci. 2004 Apr;94(4):449-58.Beta(2)-adrenergic receptor-mediated histamine H(1) receptor down-regulation: another possible advantage of beta(2) agonists in asthmatic therapy.Kawakami N, Miyoshi K, Horio S, Fukui H.Source Department of Pharmacology, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, The University of Tokushima, Tokushima, Japan.
    *Z Erkr Atmungsorgane. 1990;175(3):141-6.Effects of ketotifen and clenbuterol on beta- adrenergic receptor functions of lymphocytes and on plasma TXB-2 levels of asthmatic patients.Huszar E, Herjavecz I, Böszörmenyi-Nagy G, Slapke J, Schreiber J, Debreczeni LA. Source Experimental Physiological Research Unit of Koranyi National Institute for TB and Pharlmonology, Budapest/Hungary.
    *Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 1990 Sep-Oct;18(5):249-54.Does ketotifen act by directly stimulating beta-adrenergic system?Castillo JG, Santos F, Aguila R, Oehling A.SourceDepartment of Allergology and Clinical Immunology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Navarra, Pamplona, Spain.
    *Grahnén A; Lönnebo A, Beck O, Eckernäs SA, Dahlström B, Lindström B (May 1992). "Pharmacokinetics of ketotifen after oral administration to healthy male subjects". Biopharm Drug Dispos 13 (4): 255–262. doi:10.1002/bdd.2510130404. PMID 160011
    *Monroe, EW; Daly, AF; Shalhoub, RF (1997). "Appraisal of the validity of histmine-induced wheal and flare is used to predict the clinical efficacy of antihistamines". The Journal of allergy and clinical immunology 99 (2): S798–806. PMID 9042073.
    A receptor's sensitivity has to do with the degree of activation or activity that receptor has. A receptor can become desensitized or sensitized. Regulation refers to the number of receptors per cell. Up-regulation or down-regulation.

    How were you taking the clen and keto?

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    For the clen , I start at 40mcg and increase dose by 20mcg every 3 days until I hit 120mcg and stay there until end of 3 weeks.
    For Keto - I use 1mg/ED from start to finish

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    Quote Originally Posted by slfmade View Post
    For the clen , I start at 40mcg and increase dose by 20mcg every 3 days until I hit 120mcg and stay there until end of 3 weeks.
    For Keto - I use 1mg/ED from start to finish
    I haven't used keto but that looks like how I've seen it being used. Are you saying you come off after the 3wks then go back on after 2wks off bc of the sides? Which sides in particular?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    I haven't used keto but that looks like how I've seen it being used. Are you saying you come off after the 3wks then go back on after 2wks off bc of the sides? Which sides in particular?
    I come off because I stop experiencing any kind of sides after about 3 weeks. Sides include headaches, cramps, jitters. I actually run the keto full time until I'm completely done with clen ...even during my two weeks off just to make sure my B2R's are fully upregulated when I start back.

    Or. I guess what I should really be asking is. Just because I'm no longer experiencing sides....does this mean my B2R's are downregulated and the clen is no longer working like it should....or does it simply mean that my body is used to it but the clen is still working like it should.

    I don't want to think that just because I'm not feeling sides means that clen is no longer working. I know I'm not explaining this well.....Does that make any sense at all? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by slfmade View Post
    I come off because I stop experiencing any kind of sides after about 3 weeks. Sides include headaches, cramps, jitters. I actually run the keto full time until I'm completely done with clen ...even during my two weeks off just to make sure my B2R's are fully upregulated when I start back.

    Or. I guess what I should really be asking is. Just because I'm no longer experiencing sides....does this mean my B2R's are downregulated and the clen is no longer working like it should....or does it simply mean that my body is used to it but the clen is still working like it should.

    I don't want to think that just because I'm not feeling sides means that clen is no longer working. I know I'm not explaining this well.....Does that make any sense at all? lol
    It could be your body tolerating it much better after the initial 2wks. Such as is the case with prami, after running it for a week or two my body gets used to it and the sides are less pronounced by far. With the use of keto I doubt you're experiencing down regulation, that's what it's supposed to be preventing in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    It could be your body tolerating it much better after the initial 2wks. Such as is the case with prami, after running it for a week or two my body gets used to it and the sides are less pronounced by far. With the use of keto I doubt you're experiencing down regulation, that's what it's supposed to be preventing in the first place.
    Well, I'll give it a shot and see.
    Docd187123 likes this.

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