Keto diet on Cycle

**Granovich** · 08-08-2014, 07:04 PM

i was thinking of going on CKD diet.. my friend did it for 16 weeks while on AAS with amazing success. I researched it but i read 2 different things. one says 1g Protein per LEAN MASS lb ( which seems really low and will make me lose muscle), very low carbs and rest is just Fat with 500-1000 deficit of my TDEE.. now on Dave palumbo he says 1.5g protein per lb and 0.5g fat per lb which seems more reasonable. keep in mind im on
700mg test P
400mg tren A
60mg provirron ED
50mcg T3 ED
BF not sure about 15%. 202 lbs.
what do u think is better to get to single digits. also what about cardio
i been doing carb cycling with good success but i wanted to give this a try as it seems more drastic...
thanx

**Granovich** · 08-09-2014, 12:08 PM

Bump

**RaginCajun** · 08-09-2014, 01:51 PM

Hopefully tarmyg will chime in. I have zero experience with Keto

**Granovich** · 08-10-2014, 07:22 PM

i hope so too
thank you

**tarmyg** · 08-11-2014, 12:13 AM

During my last cut I ended up doing CKD because being in constant Keto made me stall. The body simply adapted to much. I am now running Keto while bulking and I am pre-empting the stalling by adding in a Carb-up day. The carb-up (while bulking or cutting) is highly individual and some need it as often as two times per week while others (read me) only need it once per week.

The difference in Pure Keto and the Palumbo is, as you pointed out the amount of protein one eats. Basically, your body needs energy from somewhere. I have never compared studies or anecdotal evidence on High Fat compared to High Protein in terms of muscle loss. It seems Palumbo basically took Keto and said "This will make you lose muscle unless you eat enough protein" to which many seem to agree.

You will need to play with this. I would start on pure Keto and when you feel yourself losing energy you add carb-up days but not for the first 14 days as for some it can literally take this long to become Keto adapted. You could also just buy some ketostix and use those.

Ask me at the end of this year and I can tell you more exactly how Keto diet and Bulking with Test-E works, at least for my body :-)

If you want to play this safe you could always just do 40/40/20 which people have done for decades and know works and since you are in a cycle already might be the smarter choice and do this Keto thing next time when you have had a chance to look into it more.

**jimmyinkedup** · 08-11-2014, 09:02 AM

I have tried both and prefer higher fats, lower protein than palumbo. Somewhere in between Duchaine and Palumbo works well for me. Have to have your carb load days IMO (not a ckd if you dont actually) This is where Lyle Mcdonald shines. Id go to his site and do some reading. Dont get stuck n a set one You can adjust macro spilt and carb load frequency ad find what works best for you This isnt a one shot nail it deal IMO. You have to find what works best for you and that may take a few goes at it.

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

I have tried both and prefer higher fats, lower protein than palumbo. Somewhere in between Duchaine and Palumbo works well for me. Have to have your carb load days IMO (not a ckd if you dont actually) This is where Lyle Mcdonald shines. Id go to his site and do some reading. Dont get stuck n a set one You can adjust macro spilt and carb load frequency ad find what works best for you This isnt a one shot nail it deal IMO. You have to find what works best for you and that may take a few goes at it.

yah i was thinking somewhere in the middle protein wise. and make rest fat and very minimal carb. and on carb load days from my reading i found out its 10g per KG
which is 90*10=900g over 24-32 hrs seems like crazy alot but i guess body needs it.
im gonna be doing cardio everyday post workout for an hr medium intensity

**tarmyg** · 08-11-2014, 09:28 AM

This is what it looked like for me today:

Kcal: 2,687
Carbs: 12g
Fats: 156g
Protein: 303g

**tarmyg** · 08-11-2014, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Granovich

yah i was thinking somewhere in the middle protein wise. and make rest fat and very minimal carb. and on carb load days from my reading i found out its 10g per KG
which is 90*10=900g over 24-32 hrs seems like crazy alot but i guess body needs it.
im gonna be doing cardio everyday post workout for an hr medium intensity

Where did you get this 10g/kg from?

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by tarmyg

During my last cut I ended up doing CKD because being in constant Keto made me stall. The body simply adapted to much. I am now running Keto while bulking and I am pre-empting the stalling by adding in a Carb-up day. The carb-up (while bulking or cutting) is highly individual and some need it as often as two times per week while others (read me) only need it once per week.

The difference in Pure Keto and the Palumbo is, as you pointed out the amount of protein one eats. Basically, your body needs energy from somewhere. I have never compared studies or anecdotal evidence on High Fat compared to High Protein in terms of muscle loss. It seems Palumbo basically took Keto and said "This will make you lose muscle unless you eat enough protein" to which many seem to agree.

You will need to play with this. I would start on pure Keto and when you feel yourself losing energy you add carb-up days but not for the first 14 days as for some it can literally take this long to become Keto adapted. You could also just buy some ketostix and use those.

Ask me at the end of this year and I can tell you more exactly how Keto diet and Bulking with Test-E works, at least for my body :-)

If you want to play this safe you could always just do 40/40/20 which people have done for decades and know works and since you are in a cycle already might be the smarter choice and do this Keto thing next time when you have had a chance to look into it more.

thank you for the reply. i thought its best if i run something in middle like 1.25g protein per lb and rest is fat. and do carb up first time in 2 weeks then depending on how i feel ( every 1 week or so) i'll add some cardio hopefully speed the process and 50mcg T3. test and tren should help retain muscle. what you think ?

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by tarmyg

Where did you get this 10g/kg from?

read it online bunch of places. on articles made about Keto and one website had a calculator which counts where you should be and it was 10-12g per KG of your body weight

**tarmyg** · 08-11-2014, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Granovich

thank you for the reply. i thought its best if i run something in middle like 1.25g protein per lb and rest is fat. and do carb up first time in 2 weeks then depending on how i feel ( every 1 week or so) i'll add some cardio hopefully speed the process and 50mcg T3. test and tren should help retain muscle. what you think ?

Sounds like a good start to me as long as you monitor and adjust accordingly. How far are you into your cycle?

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 10:11 AM

2 weeks only so its just start but i did a deload before it and load before so i did 8 weeks of test/npp gained some mass. im looking into be in single digits and about
200 lbs

**davesah1** · 08-11-2014, 10:15 AM

I go with TKD, CKD will maximize fat loss but hold you back on gains. Depends on your goals.

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by davesah1

I go with TKD, CKD will maximize fat loss but hold you back on gains. Depends on your goals.

could u give me more explanation please. im very interested in gain part plus fat loss... how is TKD better

**spacemon** · 08-11-2014, 10:36 AM

have you checked out ketogains ?
Just wanted to point you there in case you havent....

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by spacemon

have you checked out ketogains ?
Just wanted to point you there in case you havent....

No i havent, whats that ?

**spacemon** · 08-11-2014, 11:18 AM

Its just a sub reddit based on weight lifting and keto with skd or tkd. Read the faq for a ton of good info

**davesah1** · 08-11-2014, 11:21 AM

Because your feeding your muscles carbs pre and post workout so it keeps the intensity and pumps in the gym and leaves your muscles looking fuller, whereas on CKD I found I would have a rough time in the gym the last couple days before my carb up and look flat. If your going for single digit body fat making gains might be out the question depending on how steep you caloric deficit is. I like to do one day of no carbs and cardio to get into ketosis faster and follow TDK protocol. But I don't cut to get into single digits.

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by davesah1

Because your feeding your muscles carbs pre and post workout so it keeps the intensity and pumps in the gym and leaves your muscles looking fuller, whereas on CKD I found I would have a rough time in the gym the last couple days before my carb up and look flat. If your going for single digit body fat making gains might be out the question depending on how steep you caloric deficit is. I like to do one day of no carbs and cardio to get into ketosis faster and follow TDK protocol. But I don't cut to get into single digits.

Thank you for the info bro.
I think my best option to cut that much is to go with CKD and do cardio to get into ketosis quick. And just follow the plan and carb up then if i hit my goal i can switch to TKD and hit TDEE to try to lean bulk.
How much protein do u go
1g per lb or more
And how much fat ?

**davesah1** · 08-11-2014, 12:02 PM

I don't remember the exact number but it was a 40/60 protein to fat ration I think. There was an online keto calculator to find you adequate protein intake given your LBM and just ate a little above that. Yeah CKD will work fastest but you can't really do HIT cardio on it as legs day will be a pain in the ass or vice versa. Good luck man. I was not on gear when I did this back I the day btw.

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by davesah1

I don't remember the exact number but it was a 40/60 protein to fat ration I think. There was an online keto calculator to find you adequate protein intake given your LBM and just ate a little above that. Yeah CKD will work fastest but you can't really do HIT cardio on it as legs day will be a pain in the ass or vice versa. Good luck man. I was not on gear when I did this back I the day btw.

Ya thats what i did
The calculator said 160g do im doing 200g and lowering the fat to match 500 deficit. Also my cardio is low intensity for an hr on treadmill. Im gonna do 5 times weekly cuz i do legs twice a day now to catch up as i started doing 4 years later than my upper body. Carbs 0-25g from vegetables no starch .
Does it look good ?

**davesah1** · 08-11-2014, 01:11 PM

yup thats looks fine.
Are you going to be doing the light weight high rep full body workout before you begin your refeed as some protocols advocate?
I used to that and begin my refeed after during the late afternoon and the day after.

**jimmyinkedup** · 08-11-2014, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by davesah1

yup thats looks fine.
Are you going to be doing the light weight high rep full body workout before you begin your refeed as some protocols advocate?
I used to that and begin my refeed after during the late afternoon and the day after.

Depletion workout very important IMO ...

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 04:31 PM

i didnt know that. i will do a full bodyworkout , hypertrophy style and higher reps. before carbing up for 24 hrs then return to CKD...
what you guys think about cardio ... im thinking of doing 40% protein, rest is all fat. i think that should be enough protein. i heard too much protein can knock u out of Ketosis as well.

**davesah1** · 08-11-2014, 04:45 PM

it can, your body can breakdown the protein to make glucose, but this shouldnt be that big of an issue with ample fats and a caloric deficit. The first day after refeed you can try and eat a 30/70 protein to fat ratio to help get back to ketosis as well as take ALA. This helps a lot with getting and staying in ketosis. They also sell keto test strips at stores like CVS that you can piss on to see if you are in ketosis.

**Granovich** · 08-11-2014, 05:15 PM

yeah i heard of those strips, i will go get some and try them. and get some ALA supplement. so 30/70 first day then maybe go 40/60 ratio
sound like great plan. thanx boss

im gonna do all that and cardio as well to speed it up. low intensity and long duration so i dont lose muscle mass

**davesah1** · 08-11-2014, 05:21 PM

Looks like your ready to go and your welcome.

**GGot FFina?** · 08-13-2014, 11:50 PM

I run something similar every year before summer with great results.. 8 all protein meals a day, sunday eat everything you want. Started Jun 1st at 235 24%bf and now at 210 12.5%bf. Hope this helps a little

**Granovich** · 08-14-2014, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by GGot FFina?

I run something similar every year before summer with great results.. 8 all protein meals a day, sunday eat everything you want. Started Jun 1st at 235 24%bf and now at 210 12.5%bf. Hope this helps a little

so with eat everything u want. even fats ?
from my understanding of carb up , you need to keep minimal fat and high carbs and same amount of protein. how did urs work. any macros break down or just the amounts that u feel like it. cuz u gotta be at caloric deficit to burn fat
also where u on any AAS and how was your cardio ?