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Thread: Roman's Nutrition Corner

  1. #1
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    Roman's Nutrition Corner

    I think there is a lot of misinformation about nutrition floating around out there. There is a lot more going on besides counting calories. We have plenty of diet threads already. And they are great for helping put together a nutrition plan.

    But I think we could also talk about how to fine tune a diet after we've already been at it for awhile. There are many things to consider when choosing a sources for your macros. Certain foods can have a tendency to slow down the metabolic process, others, speed it up.

    I don't profess to be an expert. There are many more knowledgeable than I. Which means I hope to learn something too.

    I don't want to lecture. I prefer an open discussion where we bounce ideas off one another, based on our experiences and direct knowledge.

    So I'll go first.

    My TDEE is around 3100 cals assuming a slightly elevated moderate activity level (1.65). My stats are 205lbs, 52 years old, male, 13% bf and six foot tall. You can recalculate my TDEE if you like. So at 3100 cals, for weeks, no movement on the scale. I made some changes to the GV of the carbs I eat (and protein source)-and even at 3400 cals a day, I'm now losing a couple of pounds a month. So from a purely caloric perspective, this doesn't make sense. I have an explanation based on detailed information and experience. But the general nutritionists will say I'm doing something wrong.

    So, imho, the source of the calories will have an impact on metabolic rate, and this is something we can discuss if you like.

    But I'd like to hear from you too. If we bounce ideas and experiences off each other, maybe we can learn something.

    For example, I keep hearing microwave popcorn is horrible for you, and I haven't done enough research to understand why. Do you?

    So let's open up the discussion.
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    I finaly went whole hog on the keto diet 8 weeks ago. uh the whole hog thing is kinda joke because I eat a pound of bacon for breakfast; yes, a pound, smoked bacon no added salt and it's from pastured pigs.
    I have tried most diets at this point: 303040, low fat med carbs high protein, low fat necessary protein by lean mass and all fruit and veggie carbs, carb cycling, protein cycling, clean fat diet whic is just low fat protein sources with lots of fish oil (blech!). I've been a competative powerlifter, semi-pro football player (semi-pro, you get a check, buy two beers with it and go to your regular job), I was a ranked amateur bowler. What I'm saying is I've been physically active and sports oriented my whole life but I've always, always had an adipose tissue issue; hehe, I get fat EASY. Getting it off was almost always a simple twist to my diet, some weeks of wind sprints, and do higher rep squats. The last 8 years not possible. 2 knee surgeries makes sprints as a fat man stupid painful. 3 shoulder surgeries have left me without the ability to reach back beyond my head so I can't back squat (this one makes me crazy) so my "go to" for fat loss hasn't worked. Diet alone never works and as I've aged beyond 45 (not tellign now far beyond) I've become carb sensitive. Bottom line is I've had to go to a total ketosis diet. While a pound of bacon may sound fun after 2 months it aint.
    I MISS carbs in general. Not kidding, my job is outside and my favorite thing was to take a whole watermelon to work and kill it for lunch; sigh
    While I've pushed my weight back down to a reasonable level, 268 this morning, my weights are ok in my opinion, I still dead 5 plates for 4-8 reps depending on the day, I bench 315-355 depending on the day, but the keto is starting to KILL MY MIND.
    Right now I'm listening to this woman, on youtube, that's been on a ketosis diet for 4 years; FOUR YEARS???
    Look, I'm a meat eater always will be but getting 3000 calories a day from meat and fat has become restritive to me at this point.
    So, I hope to see LOTS of different diet options and the good and the ugly.
    Nice post Times.

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    I have wondered a lot of these points as well. I can eat well above TDEE on a keto diet and not gain a pound but if I do the same thing with processed carbs then the fat packs on. I do know that there is a theory called the thermic effect of food:

    Thermic Effect of Food (TEF)

    The thermic effect of food (TEF, also known as specific dynamic action or SDA or Dietary Induced Thermogenesis or DIT) refers to the slight bump in metabolic rate that occurs after eating, due to processing and utilization of the ingested nutrients. For example, protein has to be broken down and processed in the liver which requires energy. As well, the simple act of eating protein stimulates protein synthesis in various tissues (organs, liver, muscle) as well. All of which takes energy. Carbohydrates get broken down to glucose, which goes through the liver, some processing, etc. Fat undergoes the least processing. There are exceptions such as medium chain triglycerides (MCTs) which undergo quite a bit of processing in the liver, causing a slight bump in metabolic rate (via TEF) in the process.

    As it turns out, different nutrients have different individual TEF’s. Protein turns out to have the highest, to the tune of 20-30%. Meaning that of the total protein calories you eat, 20-30% is lost in processing. Carbohydrate stored as glycogen requires about 5-6% of the total calories. Carbohydrate converted to fat (which generally doesn’t happen in very significant amounts) uses up ~23% of the total calories as TEF. Most fats have a tiny TEF, maybe 2-3% (because they can be stored as fat in fat cells with minimal processing).

    Since it’s usually impractical to sit and figure out the individual TEFs for each nutrient, the normal estimate used is 10% of total caloric intake. So if you consume 3000 calories per day of a relatively ‘normal’ mixed diet, you can assume that your TEF is about 300 calories per day or so. You also generally find that, with the exception of extreme diets (such as all protein), shuffling macronutrients has a pretty minimal overall impact on metabolic rate via TEF.

    For example, consider the difference in TEF for carbs versus fat: 5-6% vs. 3%. That means that, for every 100 calories of each you ate, you’d burn 5-6 or 3 calories. So if you replaced 100 calories of fat with 100 calories of carbohydrates, you’d burn a whopping 2-3 extra calories via TEF. If you replaced 1000 calories of fat with 1000 calories of carbohydrates, you’d burn 20-30 more calories. If you were able, by some means, to replace 2000 calories of fat with carbohydrates, you would burn 40-60 more calories via TEF. One study found that metabolism was about 4% higher (100 calories per day or so) for the higher carb versus the higher protein diet. That still only amounts to an extra pound lost per month or so. Nothing to write home about to be sure.

    About the only time that TEF can become considerable is when you replace carbohydrates or fat with protein. For every 100 calories of carbs/fat replaced with protein, you’d expect to burn about 25 calories more (30 cal for protein vs. 3-6 for carbs/fat). So a doubling of protein from 60 to120 grams/day might increase TEF by 80 calories/day. Triple it to 180 grams/day and TEF could increase by 150 calories. The 20-30% TEF of protein can become even more significant at extreme intakes. However, for the most part, such extreme intakes aren’t practical or used outside of the bodybuilding subculture. In all but the most extreme diets, protein stays fairly static and carbs and fats are shuffled around; the effect is typically minimal in terms of TEF.

    Finally, I should mention that some research has found that insulin resistant individuals may have an impaired TEF response to eating, with a rough 50% reduction occurring. This could conceivably become significant. For example, on a 3000 cal/day diet, the estimated TEF would be 300 calories. Cut that in half and you only get a 150 cal/day increase in energy expenditure via TEF. Over a month’s time that would amount to 4,500 calories or about 1.5 lbs difference. I’d assume that correcting the insulin resistance by losing fat, lowering insulin and various other interventions would correct this defect and allow TEF to work normally.
    Metabolic Rate Overview, Lyle Mcdonald

  4. #4
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    ^I went ten years ignoring the weights and the diet. Party Hearty! Drank booze and did all kinds of crazy shit. Got fat. Skinny fat. I have a natural tendency to be thin, so I'm the opposite of you, what you call a hard gainer.

    Bending over from a sitting position to tie my shoelaces was a chore. Damn stomach getting in the way. Sex was difficult too, as I would pour sweat and my arms would hurt from supporting my weight while in the missionary position.

    I got to the point I wasn't happy with myself. It affected me deeply. All my life I took pride in my physique, my endurance, and to be honest, I liked to fight. All of it was gone. For some reason, I'd describe my reaction, instead of shame, it was guilt.

    I started the Atkins diet. I lost a half a pound a day. After two months, I was down 30 pounds. Then I switched to more of a south beach diet. Smart carbs and more veggies and salads. I continued to lose until I could comfortably begin walking without my back killing me. Eventually I picked up the weights again and have been at it ever since.

    My point? I know from first hand experience that belief that only avoiding carbs aka "true atkins diet" is a good thing. and it is. however, I now know that there are other considerations. a pound of bacon a day while in ketosis will keep you in ketosis. and is a great source for calories. BUT it is a terrible source of saturated fats. if you want to live to a ripe old age, you need to make some changes. But you already know this down deep.

    We can talk about what ails you, the knees?
    Remedies include 5 grams of MSM forever
    HA knee injections "lube job for the knee"

    if you can fix your knees, would that help?

    and you say you are old. mate, I'm 52. horrible knees, bad back. but i don't give up. and it sounds like you don't either.

    but there comes a time in a man's life where he must recognize his own mortality and make certain changes, as i have.

    so maybe if you post your stats and your nutrition plan, with your exercise routines and the supps you take, we/I can take a look for improvements.

    I say this as i find it hard the only solution is a permenant ketosis diet. I believe there are other options.

    Others can jump in here too. This isn't my show. It's about you and how to make improvements.

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    Oh, afteer I got below lets say below 300 for a round number; HA, round, I kill me. The knee got better. it took 3 years of daily rehab for me to get a full range of motion out of it and the bowling actually spurred me on to do so. I just can't run because pounding hurts, treadmill at 3 miles an hour easy peasy, hell walking to my fishing hole a 2 mile walk, with equipment doesn't hurt, just that POUNDING, even a slow jog.
    For my diet nowreworkout, 40gms of whey then workout first thing in the morning
    breakfast: pound of smoked bacon, 6 eggs and a pot of coffee,
    sometime around lunch or so: boneless pork ribs, yummy actually, NO RUB, just some daves and smoke
    Dinner time: I'll have a smallish beef steak or three deer burgers, bout 12-14oz total
    Bed time: one scoop whey protein
    I'll toss in some green beans, not many, green salad, spinach, turnip greens and th elike, simple olive oil and balsamic vinegrette.
    Basic vitamin pak, liquid minerals, mario pasquale's fat supplements EPA, CLA, GLA AND DHA. Extra magnesium cause i cramp bout it for supplements.
    I like the effect of ketosis. I know I'm only losing bf because I get stronger in the gym.
    I do carb up every 19 days. I've done it twice now. I don't go 21 days cause the carb days are extra rest days. I lift 6 days a week cardio on 4 of them; the non-leg days.
    48
    5'10
    268
    I'm currently 8 weeks on cycle, eq, test e, very tame cycle.
    My workout is a standard powerlifting cycle of heavy, med, light weights, 3-5 rep range, 6-10, and 12-15
    I can do front squats but have not been able to go past 335 due to that shoulder not being able to keep elbows up so I pre-exhaust thighs, rep the front squats and go heavy on leg press. I bench, then dumbells, Deadlift, then pull ups with a whole 25 strapped to me ancillary arm work as energy allows, sometimes it's two exercises sometimes just one, all out same rep ranges.

    Total calories:
    660 50g fat 32g protein
    2080 204g 52g
    441 30g 36g

    3181 284g 120g

  6. #6
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    TR,

    Thank you for the initiative on this thread. This is a great idea as it will be mostly (I hope) based on the anecdotal evidence gathered by people themselves.

    At age 28 I decided to diet for the first time ever. I really had never had to being an incredibly active person. I did the SlimFast diet down to the letter, so basically, low fat high sugar :-) I did ONLY cardio and the result was astounding. I was within my goal weight in 4 months dropping almost 40lb. I lost muscle like crazy also but this is before I knew, or cared about this stuff at all. I of course gained all this back and more but now with even less muscle. I did this a few more times over the years and each time ending up with less muscle. Working 80h weeks probably did not help matters.

    Almost 10 years later I started lifting and reading. Reading everything I came across and really got into LCHF after a while. I was quite fanatic about it for a while until I realized that diets can have different goals and not being completely open minded will only hinder my progress so I ended up joining these forums. These days, if someone posts something that I do not know or seems different from what I have learned I never reply right away without at least considering their reasoning. This have taken my dietary knowledge to the next level, I think :-)

    What I have really learned about my body is that I pack on fat EXTREMELY easy, especially when eating fast processed carbs. If I eat slow complex carbs I seem to do better but still add fat very easy. If I eat Keto I drop fat like no tomorrow and combining this with some targeted carbs or carb cycling seems to work very well for my body type. I must however cycle with slow carbs or the fat comes creeping back on.

    I am right now bulking and did so the first two weeks with carbs and disaster struck. I really seem to have no ****ing clue how to bulk with carbs so I am back bulking using CKD. Already back to about 16% body fat (Started at ~13%). Now, I am not worried about as much as I could have been as I know I can burn that off, I have done that very successfully before.

    STATS:
    TDEE : ~2315
    AGE : 42
    H : 5'9
    W : 170
    BF : 16%

    Well, not sure that is what you had in mind TR but there it is, to start with anyhow.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by pushit_05 View Post
    I have wondered a lot of these points as well. I can eat well above TDEE on a keto diet and not gain a pound but if I do the same thing with processed carbs then the fat packs on. I do know that there is a theory called the thermic effect of food:



    Metabolic Rate Overview, Lyle Mcdonald
    I understand the thermogenic effect of food (TEF), but I am not sure that is it.

    But I don't think that is it. Something else is going on.

    I switched protein sources. I abandoned protein powder. I replaced it with liquid egg whites and this canned chicken form Costco. the Costco chicken says maybe 1 gram of fat for an entire can that has 50 grams of protein. and the liquid egg white has no carbs/fat, but has 50 grams of protein as well.

    I have also completely switched my carb source from grain based (slow burning) to fruit based (faster burning) [and some veggies]. I now have great energy levels, no longer dragging ass, perform very well in the gym.....

    By the time I get home from work, I have essentially eaten NO FAT and yet still consumed 2,300 calories before dinner. Protein intake is something like 250 grams of protein.

    My fiber intake is significant as well. prior to each blender meal; and I eat three per day; I consume psyllium husk fiber. to help absorb all the water from the blender meal. (egg white is 90% water)

    These are the changes I have made, and my metabolism has jumped. I now easily consume 10% more calories and am now losing a couple of pounds a month.

    I consume no processed food for the most part, only drink water and coffee, and almost no artificial sweeteners of any kind.

    Now, this phenomenon might only be me, as we are all unique. It would be interesting to see if anyone else has experienced the same thing?

    Either way, this works very well for me.

    It's interesting. I've been working at fine tuning my diet for quite awhile, and finally, things seem to be falling into place.

    Anyone else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tarmyg View Post
    TR,

    Thank you for the initiative on this thread. This is a great idea as it will be mostly (I hope) based on the anecdotal evidence gathered by people themselves.

    At age 28 I decided to diet for the first time ever. I really had never had to being an incredibly active person. I did the SlimFast diet down to the letter, so basically, low fat high sugar :-) I did ONLY cardio and the result was astounding. I was within my goal weight in 4 months dropping almost 40lb. I lost muscle like crazy also but this is before I knew, or cared about this stuff at all. I of course gained all this back and more but now with even less muscle. I did this a few more times over the years and each time ending up with less muscle. Working 80h weeks probably did not help matters.

    Almost 10 years later I started lifting and reading. Reading everything I came across and really got into LCHF after a while. I was quite fanatic about it for a while until I realized that diets can have different goals and not being completely open minded will only hinder my progress so I ended up joining these forums. These days, if someone posts something that I do not know or seems different from what I have learned I never reply right away without at least considering their reasoning. This have taken my dietary knowledge to the next level, I think :-)

    What I have really learned about my body is that I pack on fat EXTREMELY easy, especially when eating fast processed carbs. If I eat slow complex carbs I seem to do better but still add fat very easy. If I eat Keto I drop fat like no tomorrow and combining this with some targeted carbs or carb cycling seems to work very well for my body type. I must however cycle with slow carbs or the fat comes creeping back on.

    I am right now bulking and did so the first two weeks with carbs and disaster struck. I really seem to have no ****ing clue how to bulk with carbs so I am back bulking using CKD. Already back to about 16% body fat (Started at ~13%). Now, I am not worried about as much as I could have been as I know I can burn that off, I have done that very successfully before.

    STATS:
    TDEE : ~2315
    AGE : 42
    H : 5'9
    W : 170
    BF : 16%

    Well, not sure that is what you had in mind TR but there it is, to start with anyhow.
    do you have any issues with weight lifting while in keto?

    I can do one or the other, but not both at the same time. I get too grumpy.

    It doesn't effect your mood?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsjunk View Post
    Oh, afteer I got below lets say below 300 for a round number; HA, round, I kill me. The knee got better. it took 3 years of daily rehab for me to get a full range of motion out of it and the bowling actually spurred me on to do so. I just can't run because pounding hurts, treadmill at 3 miles an hour easy peasy, hell walking to my fishing hole a 2 mile walk, with equipment doesn't hurt, just that POUNDING, even a slow jog.
    For my diet nowreworkout, 40gms of whey then workout first thing in the morning
    breakfast: pound of smoked bacon, 6 eggs and a pot of coffee,
    sometime around lunch or so: boneless pork ribs, yummy actually, NO RUB, just some daves and smoke
    Dinner time: I'll have a smallish beef steak or three deer burgers, bout 12-14oz total
    Bed time: one scoop whey protein
    I'll toss in some green beans, not many, green salad, spinach, turnip greens and th elike, simple olive oil and balsamic vinegrette.
    Basic vitamin pak, liquid minerals, mario pasquale's fat supplements EPA, CLA, GLA AND DHA. Extra magnesium cause i cramp bout it for supplements.
    I like the effect of ketosis. I know I'm only losing bf because I get stronger in the gym.
    I do carb up every 19 days. I've done it twice now. I don't go 21 days cause the carb days are extra rest days. I lift 6 days a week cardio on 4 of them; the non-leg days.
    48
    5'10
    268
    I'm currently 8 weeks on cycle, eq, test e, very tame cycle.
    My workout is a standard powerlifting cycle of heavy, med, light weights, 3-5 rep range, 6-10, and 12-15
    I can do front squats but have not been able to go past 335 due to that shoulder not being able to keep elbows up so I pre-exhaust thighs, rep the front squats and go heavy on leg press. I bench, then dumbells, Deadlift, then pull ups with a whole 25 strapped to me ancillary arm work as energy allows, sometimes it's two exercises sometimes just one, all out same rep ranges.

    Total calories:
    660 50g fat 32g protein
    2080 204g 52g
    441 30g 36g

    3181 284g 120g
    I am in a similar boat. Back/knee problems. When I'm bulking, I can get up to 250, which is about my limit before back/knee pain gets to be too much. Soon, I will have my back (hopefully) fixed, and my right knee was fixed a couple of years ago. if all goes well, I might be able to push the 250 boundary a bit. But now I have my age to consider, so if that is a direction I want to go, I need to hurry.............

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsjunk View Post
    Total calories:
    660 50g fat 32g protein
    2080 204g 52g
    441 30g 36g

    3181 284g 120g
    am I reading this right? I'm used to seeing macros stated in P/C/F order, and it seems you are F/P format?

    you are eating 284 grams of fat and only 120 grams of protein?

    I've read all the anecdotal stories about the (inuit?) northern natives living for months at a time on only whale blubber and had great cholestoral. But I am concerned about your protein intake. Your strength is going up, I imagine, because you haven't been in the gym too long, but that doesn't mean you are not losing LBM.

    maybe switch to half a pound of bacon and make a blender drink of liquid egg white and a can of chicken for an easy fat free 100 grams of protein?

    or maybe two blender drinks for an easy 200 grams of protein?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    I have also completely switched my carb source from grain based (slow burning) to fruit based (faster burning) [and some veggies].
    I posted the TEF thing just cause it seemed like it would belong in this thread...I made the same switch as above and noticed the same thing. If you dropped protein maybe you had a lactose thing. I def hold more water with diary and do notice a slow down in fat loss. However I get 60+ grams protein a day from dairy just due to simplicity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    am I reading this right? I'm used to seeing macros stated in P/C/F order, and it seems you are F/P format?

    you are eating 284 grams of fat and only 120 grams of protein?

    I've read all the anecdotal stories about the (inuit?) northern natives living for months at a time on only whale blubber and had great cholestoral. But I am concerned about your protein intake. Your strength is going up, I imagine, because you haven't been in the gym too long, but that doesn't mean you are not losing LBM.

    maybe switch to half a pound of bacon and make a blender drink of liquid egg white and a can of chicken for an easy fat free 100 grams of protein?

    or maybe two blender drinks for an easy 200 grams of protein?
    Nope, you read that right other than greens and green beans I don't have carbs and I've been, seriously in the gym since late feb . I started just going, yoiiu know the drill, just get up and get there and do whatever yoiu can. Took a month or so but I found my rythm, 4 lift days, then a 5 day split routine. Then a serious change to my diet, NO soda pop since april, lost 25 pounds right off the bat from that alone. I went keto in june, started a cycle june 18th eq and test, as I said a very low sane cycle with lean slow muscle gain and fat loss the primary goals.
    I think we'd both agree there was, is, some muscle memory responsible for consistant strength gains.
    Oh, you forgot the whey protein I take; pre-workout 40g, before bed 40g.
    I'm keeping the overall protein low as I don't want to bounce out of ketosis from glucogenesis?
    I have been thinking about replacing half the bacon with a nice white fish though.

  13. #13
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    Why all the bacon hate? I eat bacon like Columbo popped Dbol .

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    He has a fair point as I haven't had any bloods done and I need to. I need to at least see where my cholesterol is I just don't want that question asked when my test comes back sky high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    do you have any issues with weight lifting while in keto?

    I can do one or the other, but not both at the same time. I get too grumpy.

    It doesn't effect your mood?
    First time I did this and the first week was just, honestly, ****ing horrible. This I have later learned is mostly sugar withdrawal in my case. I had decided I was going to run it until I became completely Keto adapted, meaning, not just in Keto but having my body adapt to it. It took 5 weeks of eating (I am a simple guy) Ground beef, butter, chicken, bacon, mayo, cheese, bratwursts and such things. Once I got adapted there was zero difference in how I felt and what I was performing. The difference was since I was cutting that I was dropping fat like crazy. It was kind of unreal at some weigh ins. After I became adapted I started eating some veggies and such but always keeping net carbs under 60g and my pee still smelled just as terrible (Never used keto stix, just pee or have my wife tell me my breath is horrendous, she keeps after me that way) so I was still in full Keto mood.

    My next test will be to do this while bulking but that will not happen until next year as I prefer to go from cut in Keto mode to Bulk as I will waste time on bulk otherwise keto adapting.

    Conclusion, once adapted it had zero effect on the volume or intensity in the gym. And once adapted, I was not grumpy or feeling bad at all, just full of energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsjunk View Post
    He has a fair point as I haven't had any bloods done and I need to. I need to at least see where my cholesterol is I just don't want that question asked when my test comes back sky high.
    I will bet my left nut on the fact that you will have a very difficult time finding anyone doing a serious Keto diet who is having ANY problems with their values whatsoever.

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    When I was 23 I went to prison, due to a drug addiction. When I was there I sat around played cards and ate top romin soups all day. When I got out I was 315 pounds. It took my around 3-4 yrs of dieting to cut down to 235, all natural. Didn't care if it was muscle or fast, was just looking at the scale. Then decided to start AAS again( took some cycles while in college, no idea what I was doing, just putting a lot of compounds in my body) to build up muscle. Now I stay around the 250-260 range, and a lot more a where of my diet and how it works. My proteins, I've cut out almost all powder form like TR has done. Only 1 quest bar in a.m. The rest is canned chicken, fresh fish, and lean meats. Carbs have been a working progress, I think I've got it figured out for me, it's a combination of fast and slow burning. Get about 3 cups of berries everyday, great for the fiber, slow carbs are a mix of brown rice, oats and sweet potatoes. Seemed that if a only did brown rice or only oats it wasn't working well. Now that it a mix, I've increased my carbs and still losing BF. Fats I play around with, bounce them high some days above 110g and others keep them below 60. Trying to cut out the natty PB but it's my weakness. This all seems to be working well for me

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    Sorry mates I haven't been keeping up with this thread. New job, lack of time, you know the drill.

    Here's a puzzler for you

    Fruits = simple carbs
    Grain = complex carbs

    now let's look at the burn rate

    GV
    Banana = 52
    Apple = 40 something

    Rolled Oats = 65

    do you see my point?

    Simple carbs by definition are easy to convert to sugar. Easier than complex carbs. here is the evolution:

    Sugar < simple carbs < complex carbs < starch < fiber

    So common sense would tell you the fruit should have a higher GV than the rolled oats, but that is not accurate.

    Puzzler

    Any ideas?

  19. #19
    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Or am I mistaken and rolled oats are simple carbs?

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    I am under the same impression you are and am confused by the whole thing.

    For instance look up things like Sponge Cake and Apple juice.

    Low to mid 40's...makes no sense

  21. #21
    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Some of our resident Nutrition gurus seem to be awol, and it would be nice to pick their brains on this one.

    Is it possible that fructose is a slow burning simple carb?

    When I have a mental fog at work from prolonged and intense analytics, eating a banana or an apple will usually kick in around 10 minutes. I don't get that with grain based carbs with a higher GV.

    I'll have to give this some thought. But I think the solution to this puzzler is a key in why I'm now losing weight now even though I've increased caloric intake by 300 cals/day over TDEE, when before, my weight was stable.

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    The Myth of the “Insulin or Sugar Crash” during exercise…

    I have been discussing this topic recently with a teammate (thanks for the mind fodder Jason!). There is an idea out there that people need to consume “slow burning” sugar (or carbohydrate) during exercise or else your body will experience a “sugar crash” and you will die… (ok-that last part is not really what people think)…but if nothing else, your race will be sabotaged by “quick burning”, “insulin spiking” types of sugar.

    I want to tell you all that this IS NOT TRUE and, in fact, THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE about what you should eat during exercise!!!

    First, I want to define the difference between a “simple” and “fast” vs. “complex” and “slow” sugar. “Simple” and “fast” do not mean the same thing. Simple means that the sugar is a monosaccharide or disaccharide- ok what the hell does that mean? It means that the sugar is made of one or two units of something. For instance, fructose is just one block of fructose and glucose is just one block of glucose. Sucrose is a disaccharide (or made up of 2 units of something). Sucrose is made up of a block of glucose and a block of fructose stuck together. According to the National Institute of health, a “complex” sugar is one that is made up of at least three “blocks” of something. (Carbohydrates: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia)

    Maltodextrin is by definition a “complex” carbohydrate because it is a polymer and made up of many “blocks” of glucose pieces stuck together (In turn, starch is a bunch of maltodextrin pieces stuck together and is also, obviously, complex) Here is why I have to define these terms though- Maltodextrin is a COMPLEX carbohydrate that acts like a “FAST BURNING” sugar…ok that is just crazy but it is true…

    So I obviously have to prove it. How quickly a sugar “burns” or is digested, absorbed and has an effect on your bloodsugar is described through the glycemic index (the higher the score, the more quickly the sugar is digested, absorbed and affects blood sugar). This index is subject to a lot of influencing factors, including whether or not you are consuming fat, protein and fiber with your carbohydrates- but putting that aside and just looking at the sugars- we get an idea of how quickly these sugars act. Here is a very rough (but hopefully ball park accurate list- it is tough to get this information because the glycemic index is almost always represented in real foods for practical reasons):

    Glucose 85-111
    Maltodextrin 105
    Honey 32-87
    Sucrose 58-65
    Lactose 46
    Fructose 12-25
    So you see now that maltrodextrin is a “complex” sugar that “burns fast” and fructose is a “simple” sugar that burns “slow” (However there are other problems with fructose in the way it is processed in the body that go beyond the scope of this article that don’t really make it glycemic index friendly in large quantities- but this is a separate issue).

    So getting back to what to consume during exercise.

    During rest, you can experience a “spike” in blood sugar and a subsequent rise in insulin that causes a “crash” or mild hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) a bit later. This is true, DURING REST. See graph below:
    Roman's Nutrition Corner-bglucose2.gif
    (source: http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/nut...0418-print.php)

    BUT…this graph is NOT TRUE when you are exercising or racing!!!! This is the myth that a lot of people carry around that is insane in the membrane. We have evolved (if you believe in that type of thing) to fight tigers and ligers and dinosaurs (right?) and that is why we have historically exercised. To do this our body produces an adrenaline response when we exercise, similar to a “fight or flight” response. When we exercise today our body thinks we need to fight something or hunt something so it is smart and increases our heart rate for the battle, shuts down our digestive system and shunts blood to muscles, adjusts our pupils so we can see better – and lots of other stuff too- but it also decreases insulin production out of our pancreases so we have consistently high bloodsugar levels for the battle with the dinosaur. And this is why you will not have an “insulin crash” during exercise!!! (this is also why you need to worry about sparing your glycogen stores during exercise- because that glycogen is getting broken down to keep blood sugar up but that is a separate discussion for another article as well)

    So why does this matter- it matters because sugars that are higher on the glycemic index typically absorb quicker than those lower on the index. Gastric emptying times (how fast the sugar gets out of your stomach) are shorter. And this matters A LOT during moderate to hard exercise. Remember how I said when you are fighting the dinosaur that your body shunts blood from your digestive system to your muscles for the battle?? That is also what happens when you exercise. So gastric emptying is a BIG DEAL!! It is an even bigger deal if you are racing or exercising hard- I am sure everyone who reads this has experienced that truth in all its vomiting glory at one point in their lives during a hard interval or race.

    Therefore, high glycemic sugar is where it is at for exercising and immediately after exercising (for quick absorption recovery purposes- beyond the scope of this discussion). Hammer Nutrition is super researchy with their products and they have found that maltodextrin has the fastest gastric emptying time. Hammer gels use maltodextrin almost exclusively (a little fruit juice too) as their carbohydrate source and that is why I use them – most nutrition companies do not use maltodextrin at this time because it is a more expensive ingredient to use than alternative sugar sources.

    Conventional wisdom is currently that one should eat low glycemic index foods during rest and prior to exercise and high glycemic (preferably maltodextrin for during) during and immediately following exercise.

    Now if someone tells you to eat whole wheat bread or some crazy sh#t like that during exercise to avoid the “sugar crash” you can call BS on them and know exactly why they are whack….

    REF: The Myth of the Insulin or Sugar Crash during exercise

  23. #23
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    I'll read this later tonight, after work, after gym, after cardio, and after dinner. =)

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