Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 47
Like Tree7Likes

Thread: protein absorbtion?

  1. #1
    woody127's Avatar
    woody127 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    136

    protein absorbtion?

    Is there actually any protein that is ...should I say wasted. e.g if you have 45g of protein every 3 hours are you actually using it all. If training hard and carbs and fats are up to scratch.

  2. #2
    Khazima's Avatar
    Khazima is offline Knowledgeable Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    2,058
    No it's never wasted, but it's suggested that there are optimal amounts to spike muscle protein synthesis at one time, depending on the leucine content of the source of protein. A protein source with 3.6g leucine is recommended every 4-5 hours for an optimal spike in muscle protein synthesis.

  3. #3
    woody127's Avatar
    woody127 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    136
    Cool thanks

  4. #4
    Synhax is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    201
    depends on your body needs, if you have excess protein and your body doesnt need it, it can convert it to fat or excrete it from the body... but its safe to say if your consuming that much protein regularly then at least you wont go catabolic and your muscle growth needs will be met. Its better to go over your body requirement than under just to be safe, dont want to lose them gainz

  5. #5
    JohnnyKirk's Avatar
    JohnnyKirk is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    138
    They say you cannot absorb more than 30 gr of protein at a time. Is that true?

  6. #6
    Khazima's Avatar
    Khazima is offline Knowledgeable Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    2,058
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyKirk View Post
    They say you cannot absorb more than 30 gr of protein at a time. Is that true?
    No it's a myth, plenty of discussions have been had on the forum about it. Your body will 'absorb' everything you eat but there's a thresh-hold of how much you can spike muscle protein synthesis. So basically having any more than X amount of protein (refer to post #1) Will not have any more benefits than consuming Y amount of protein at one time.
    JohnnyKirk likes this.

  7. #7
    Cody95's Avatar
    Cody95 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    627
    Quote Originally Posted by woody127 View Post
    Is there actually any protein that is ...should I say wasted. e.g if you have 45g of protein every 3 hours are you actually using it all. If training hard and carbs and fats are up to scratch.
    . ..
    Last edited by Cody95; 03-15-2015 at 07:30 PM.

  8. #8
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Cody95 View Post
    Protein is never wasted. You can consume 100g in one sitting and your body will still absorb every bit of it.
    I'm not saying that going over is bad at all(like stated above itll help prevent catabolism(but that's what 100% casein does overnight - it's a very slowly digested protein leaving your body in a more anabolic state as you sleep)!

    However if your supposed to take in 250g of protein a day abd you do 350g I bet your passing out some! It's not all absorbed.... Look at your piss and if it's really bubbly its your body secreting protein through urine or both but usually urine...
    Synhax likes this.

  9. #9
    Synhax is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    201
    Quote Originally Posted by Cody95 View Post
    Protein is never wasted. You can consume 100g in one sitting and your body will still absorb every bit of it.
    Um no thats not true at all, if your body doesn't actually need that much protein it will either convert it to fat and store it or excrete it out of the body, it will not necessarily use every gram you give it, and 100g in one sitting is alot of protein at once, most likely some if it will be wasted.
    NACH3 likes this.

  10. #10
    Synhax is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    201
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    I'm not saying that going over is bad at all(like stated above itll help prevent catabolism(but that's what 100% casein does overnight - it's a very slowly digested protein leaving your body in a more anabolic state as you sleep)!

    However if your supposed to take in 250g of protein a day abd you do 350g I bet your passing out some! It's not all absorbed.... Look at your piss and if it's really bubbly its your body secreting protein through urine or both but usually urine...
    THIS^

    Also, you can convert the excess protein to fatty acids and sugars and store it rather than expel all of it from your body.

  11. #11
    Cody95's Avatar
    Cody95 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    627
    Quote Originally Posted by Synhax View Post

    Um no thats not true at all, if your body doesn't actually need that much protein it will either convert it to fat and store it or excrete it out of the body, it will not necessarily use every gram you give it, and 100g in one sitting is alot of protein at once, most likely some if it will be wasted.
    I'm not talking about the general population, I guess I should have been more specific. I'm simply saying if you eat "larger" amounts of protein, your body will still absorb it and not waste it like the "myth", Of course that depends on the person, if an average person eats 100g protein, it may not all be absorbed, for a bodybuilder like myself, my body will easly absorb and utilize the protein, again it depends on the person and their level of activity, ect.. I was just using the 100g protein as an example. Like I said I should have been more specific.
    Last edited by Cody95; 03-15-2015 at 07:27 PM.

  12. #12
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    And THIS^^^ like w/all macros(c/f/p) if your body can't use it as an energy it all gets stored as fat, until burned off!

  13. #13
    Cody95's Avatar
    Cody95 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    627
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    And THIS^^^ like w/all macros(c/f/p) if your body can't use it as an energy it all gets stored as fat, until burned off!
    Ah, maybe I should just edit it. I was simply stating that your body can absorb more protein then the 30g "myth" or 45g, whatever it is now a days.

  14. #14
    human project's Avatar
    human project is offline Knowledgeable Member~Recognized Member Winner - $100
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,909
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3

    I'm not saying that going over is bad at all(like stated above itll help prevent catabolism(but that's what 100% casein does overnight - it's a very slowly digested protein leaving your body in a more anabolic state as you sleep)!

    However if your supposed to take in 250g of protein a day abd you do 350g I bet your passing out some! It's not all absorbed.... Look at your piss and if it's really bubbly its your body secreting protein through urine or both but usually urine...
    When I use to use insulin and was always checking my blood sugar I found that the bubbly piss has a lot to do with blood sugar level.... Now that being said if my blood sugar was super high I'm sure my protein intake was also very high but I always thought the bubbles were from carbs

  15. #15
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by human project View Post
    When I use to use insulin and was always checking my blood sugar I found that the bubbly piss has a lot to do with blood sugar level.... Now that being said if my blood sugar was super high I'm sure my protein intake was also very high but I always thought the bubbles were from carbs
    Could be a combo?! It does make sense regarding sugar levels as well... I personally don't have any experience w/slin... But I wouldn't be surprised if it's a combo of all macros(I would think) due to each being able to be stored away if not burned off, then some amount of each could be secreted, also?...

  16. #16
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by Synhax View Post
    Um no thats not true at all, if your body doesn't actually need that much protein it will either convert it to fat and store it or excrete it out of the body, it will not necessarily use every gram you give it, and 100g in one sitting is alot of protein at once, most likely some if it will be wasted.
    While the pathways to convert protein to fat do exist in the body you're more likely to get struck by lightning twice....in the same day....in the same location

  17. #17
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    Could be a combo?! It does make sense regarding sugar levels as well... I personally don't have any experience w/slin... But I wouldn't be surprised if it's a combo of all macros(I would think) due to each being able to be stored away if not burned off, then some amount of each could be secreted, also?...
    Bubbly piss doesn't mean wasted protein.

  18. #18
    woody127's Avatar
    woody127 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post

    I'm not saying that going over is bad at all(like stated above itll help prevent catabolism(but that's what 100% casein does overnight - it's a very slowly digested protein leaving your body in a more anabolic state as you sleep)!

    However if your supposed to take in 250g of protein a day abd you do 350g I bet your passing out some! It's not all absorbed.... Look at your piss and if it's really bubbly its your body secreting protein through urine or both but usually urine...
    Very good info . cheers mate

  19. #19
    woody127's Avatar
    woody127 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    And THIS^^^ like w/all macros(c/f/p) if your body can't use it as an energy it all gets stored as fat, until burned off!
    Precisely... To much = spillover

  20. #20
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Bubbly piss doesn't mean wasted protein.
    What does it mean? It's something(that the body is expelling!)

    Your body can not absorb all macros, hence them getting stored as fat/sugars etc if not used as fuel!!
    Last edited by NACH3; 03-17-2015 at 07:48 AM.

  21. #21
    mauler's Avatar
    mauler is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    in a taco
    Posts
    268
    Quote Originally Posted by Cody95 View Post
    I'm not talking about the general population, I guess I should have been more specific. I'm simply saying if you eat "larger" amounts of protein, your body will still absorb it and not waste it like the "myth", Of course that depends on the person, if an average person eats 100g protein, it may not all be absorbed, for a bodybuilder like myself, my body will easly absorb and utilize the protein, again it depends on the person and their level of activity, ect.. I was just using the 100g protein as an example. Like I said I should have been more specific.
    ahh man nice advise and totally agree. we are not average men so why eat like one hahahahaha

  22. #22
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    What does it mean? It's something(that the body is expelling!)

    Your body can not absorb all macros, hence them getting stored as fat/sugars etc if not used as fuel!!
    Absorption is not the same as utilization, you're confusing the two terms here. Absorption means that once something has been digested mechanically and chemically by your teeth and enzymes, the nutrients pass into the blood stream. Utilization refers to what they end up being used for.

    Protein will never be stored as fat in any realistic scenario. He pathways exist for it to happen but like I said earlier the chances of it happening are so small you're better off playing mega millions and hoping to win the jackpot.

    Carbs are very rarely stored as fat. This myth was started from research on rats who process carbs much differently than humans. In humans it's a distant concern.

    Dietary fat is the only macro that's always stored as fat.

    Your body most certainly will digest and absorb as well as utilize all macros provided you're healthy and no medical issues.

    Bubbly urine is simply the by product of a hun protein diet. There's more nitrogen in the body that needs to be processed and expelled as well as other nutrients.
    Mr.BB and Khazima like this.

  23. #23
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Absorption is not the same as utilization, you're confusing the two terms here. Absorption means that once something has been digested mechanically and chemically by your teeth and enzymes, the nutrients pass into the blood stream. Utilization refers to what they end up being used for.

    Protein will never be stored as fat in any realistic scenario. He pathways exist for it to happen but like I said earlier the chances of it happening are so small you're better off playing mega millions and hoping to win the jackpot.

    Carbs are very rarely stored as fat. This myth was started from research on rats who process carbs much differently than humans. In humans it's a distant concern.

    Dietary fat is the only macro that's always stored as fat.

    Your body most certainly will digest and absorb as well as utilize all macros provided you're healthy and no medical issues.

    Bubbly urine is simply the by product of a hun protein diet. There's more nitrogen in the body that needs to be processed and expelled as well as other nutrients.
    I agree... There is a precise difference in utilization and absorption! That's why I'm saying it's impossible to absorb all your macros(why we all eat more than the usual person(this does not mean we are utilizing every macro we take in)!

    I really don't believe that you think you believe that carbs don't get stored as fat... What myth is this?

    Too much of any(macro) if not utilized will be stored away until one goes on a caloric deficit to utilize that stored fuel first... The more we take in over our TDEE the more it could be stored away, and spill over is gonna happen!
    Last edited by NACH3; 03-17-2015 at 08:20 AM.

  24. #24
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    I agree... There is a precise difference in utilization and absorption! That's why I'm saying it's impossible to absorb all your macros(why we all eat more than the usual person(this does not mean we are utilizing every macro we take in)!

    I really don't believe that you think you believe that carbs don't get stored as fat... What myth is this?


    Absorption happens right after digestion. Absorption means the nutrients get into your blood stream, which again barring any medical or GI issues, happens at almost a 100% efficiency rate. We do absorb and utilize almost everything, macro and calorie wise, we eat.

    The creation of fat from carbohydrates is de novo lipogenesis or DNL. DNL is much more prevalent in rats bc they process carbs differently than humans do. This idea that if too many carbs are eaten they'll convert to fat is based off fat models and studies not humans. It's not that common In humans. You need to be in a hypercaloric state and eat enough carbs that you fully replenish glycogen stores as well as exceed your energy needs for the day.

    Here's one study showing 500g of carbs taken

    Am J Clin Nutr. 1987 Jan;45(1):78-85. Links
    Carbohydrate metabolism and de novo lipogenesis in human obesity.

    Acheson KJ, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
    Respiratory exchange was measured during 14 consecutive hours in six lean and six obese individuals after ingestion of 500 g of dextrin maltose to investigate and compare their capacity for net de novo lipogenesis. After ingestion of the carbohydrate load, metabolic rates rose similarly in both groups but fell earlier and more rapidly in the obese. RQs also rose rapidly and remained in the range of 0.95 to 1.00 for approximately 8 h in both groups. During this time, RQ exceeded 1.00 for only short periods of time with the result that 4 +/- 1 g and 5 +/- 3 g (NS) of fat were synthesized via de novo lipogenesis in excess of concomitant fat oxidation in the lean and obese subjects, respectively. Results demonstrate that net de novo lipid synthesis from an unusually large carbohydrate load is not greater in obese than in lean individuals.



    Too much of any(macro) if not utilized will be stored away until one goes on a caloric deficit to utilize that stored fuel first... The more we take in over our TDEE the more it could be stored away, and spill over is gonna happen!
    This is an overly simplistic and not a fully accurate description of what happens. Too much protein will never be stored away to create fat. Try as hard as you might this is not going to happen in humans.

    Too many carbs can in certain circumstances be stored as fat but this is not as common as it's made out to be.

    All the fat you eat will be stored as fat.

  25. #25
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    Check this out... Just googled it....

    Everyone knows that overeating leads to excess weight. This concept comes in many flavors these days, though. Some people think that carbohydrates are the culprit. Others think it's sugar. Some people think that eating lots of protein couldn't possibly make them gain weight. Hmmm...

    The only way to determine the answer to this enigma is to go inside the human body and take a look at how fat gets there in the first place. Let's follow a bite of pepperoni pizza and see what happens to its sugar, fat and protein. Open wide!

    The food enters your mouth:

    Saliva contains enzymes that break any starch in the food down to sugar.

    This, along with any fat and water in the food, travel to the stomach, which churns them up.

    Pepsin (an enzyme that digests protein) and hydrochloric acid further break down the food, turning it into a substance called chyme.

    The mixture enters the duodenum, (the place where the gall bladder secretes its bile).

    This bile dissolves the fat in water, thinning it out and making it easier to absorb.

    Enzymes from the pancreas enter the duodenum and further break down the sugar, fat and protein.

    Now everything is dissolved and is in fluid form, so it is absorbed through the lining of the small bowel. Fat, sugar and protein wave good-bye to each other and go their separate ways.

    What happens to the sugar:

    It also goes directly into the blood stream, and several different organs take the sugar they need as it passes by.

    Some is stored in the liver as glycogen.

    Whatever is left is converted to fat and stored in fat cells with the excess fat above.

    What happens to the fat:

    First, it goes into the blood stream and travels to the liver.

    The liver burns some of the fat, converts some to other substances (one is cholesterol) and sends the rest to fat cells, where they wait until they are needed.

    What happens to the protein:

    It is broken down into building blocks known as peptides.

    Then, it is further broken down and it becomes amino acids.

    The amino acids are absorbed through the small intestine's lining and enter the blood stream.

    From here, some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores.

    Excess amino acids are converted to fats and sugars and follow the paths described above.

    This is such a simple concept, but many people still believe that consuming lots and lots of protein will put muscle on their bones. Don't be fooled by this notion! Even excess protein turns to fat.

    Here is a picturesque illustration of the real cause of weight gain. Eating too much food! Dietary fat is obviously the substance most often stored as fat in the ends, but no matter what you eat, your body takes whatever it can't use and sends it to fat cells. If you don't burn it off or expel it, it hangs around in your fat cells, no matter what it consists of.



    Maia Appleby is a certified personal trainer and weight loss consultant at a fitness center in south Florida. For more of her articles, along with weight loss and fitness tips, news and resources, visit her websites: Shape Up Shop - Fitness, Athletic & Recreation Equipment | treadmills, ellipticals, exercise bikes and Inch-Aweigh - Weight loss treadmills :: discount Proform, Nordictrack, Reebok, elliptical trainers with payment plans and best prices.

    [Nutrition Home][1stholistic.com Home][Healthy Recipes Home][Holisticonline.com Home]







    1stholistic.com and Holisticonline.com are developed and maintained by ICBS
    Send mail to: [email protected] with comments about this web site.
    Copyright © 1998-2013 ICBS Terms of Use
    All Rights Reserved.
    Last edited by NACH3; 03-17-2015 at 09:36 AM.

  26. #26
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    Check this out... Just googled it....

    Everyone knows that overeating leads to excess weight. This concept comes in many flavors these days, though. Some people think that carbohydrates are the culprit. Others think it's sugar. Some people think that eating lots of protein couldn't possibly make them gain weight. Hmmm...

    The only way to determine the answer to this enigma is to go inside the human body and take a look at how fat gets there in the first place. Let's follow a bite of pepperoni pizza and see what happens to its sugar, fat and protein. Open wide!

    The food enters your mouth:

    Saliva contains enzymes that break any starch in the food down to sugar.

    This, along with any fat and water in the food, travel to the stomach, which churns them up.

    Pepsin (an enzyme that digests protein) and hydrochloric acid further break down the food, turning it into a substance called chyme.

    The mixture enters the duodenum, (the place where the gall bladder secretes its bile).

    This bile dissolves the fat in water, thinning it out and making it easier to absorb.

    Enzymes from the pancreas enter the duodenum and further break down the sugar, fat and protein.

    Now everything is dissolved and is in fluid form, so it is absorbed through the lining of the small bowel. Fat, sugar and protein wave good-bye to each other and go their separate ways.

    What happens to the sugar:

    It also goes directly into the blood stream, and several different organs take the sugar they need as it passes by.

    Some is stored in the liver as glycogen.

    Whatever is left is converted to fat and stored in fat cells with the excess fat above.

    What happens to the fat:

    First, it goes into the blood stream and travels to the liver.

    The liver burns some of the fat, converts some to other substances (one is cholesterol) and sends the rest to fat cells, where they wait until they are needed.

    What happens to the protein:

    It is broken down into building blocks known as peptides.

    Then, it is further broken down and it becomes amino acids.

    The amino acids are absorbed through the small intestine's lining and enter the blood stream.

    From here, some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores.

    Excess amino acids are converted to fats and sugars and follow the paths described above.

    This is such a simple concept, but many people still believe that consuming lots and lots of protein will put muscle on their bones. Don't be fooled by this notion! Even excess protein turns to fat.

    Here is a picturesque illustration of the real cause of weight gain. Eating too much food! Dietary fat is obviously the substance most often stored as fat in the ends, but no matter what you eat, your body takes whatever it can't use and sends it to fat cells. If you don't burn it off or expel it, it hangs around in your fat cells, no matter what it consists of.



    Maia Appleby is a certified personal trainer and weight loss consultant at a fitness center in south Florida. For more of her articles, along with weight loss and fitness tips, news and resources, visit her websites: Shape Up Shop - Fitness, Athletic & Recreation Equipment | treadmills, ellipticals, exercise bikes and Inch-Aweigh - Weight loss treadmills :: discount Proform, Nordictrack, Reebok, elliptical trainers with payment plans and best prices.

    [Nutrition Home][1stholistic.com Home][Healthy Recipes Home][Holisticonline.com Home]







    1stholistic.com and Holisticonline.com are developed and maintained by ICBS
    Send mail to: [email protected] with comments about this web site.
    Copyright © 1998-2013 ICBS Terms of Use
    All Rights Reserved.
    She's right about the digestion part but wrong on the rest of it. Google lyle mcdonald, will brink, alan aragon, etc and you'll get much more accurate info. I'll link some stuff if I have time later

  27. #27
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220

  28. #28
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Lyle QnA:


    Question: I have done a lot of study in diets and nutrition but to this day I have not been able to get any concrete evidence on what happens with excess protein in the body and I’m hoping you can help.
    To make things simple, lets take a theoretical diet consisting of 5000 calories of pure protein for a 60kg, 175cm female.
    Many people claim that excess protein will get wasted while others say that all excess calories eventually end up being stored as fat.
    I have done my own research on the breakdown of protein into amino acids and I understood it as: some of the amino acids are wasted while others will go through the cycle of conversion and will still be used by the body for energy.
    Answer: Ok, first things first. The example given above is absurdly non-physiological. The satiating power of protein would make such a high protein consumption impossible. That is, 5000 calories of pure protein is 1250 grams of pure protein. Can’t be done. Beyond that, while the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.
    Let me put this in perspective. Despite a lot of claims to the contrary, the actual conversion of carbohydrate to fat in humans under normal dietary conditions is small approaching insignificant (a topic I discussed at least briefly in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation).
    Make no mistake, the conversion of carbs to fat (a process called de-novo lipogenesis or DNL) can happen but the requirements for it to happen significantly are fairly rare in humans under most conditions (to discuss this in detail would require a full article, interested readers can search Medline for work by Hellerstein or Acheson on the topic).
    At least one of those is when daily carbohydrate intake is just massive, fulfilling over 100% of the daily maintenance energy requirements. And only then when muscle glycogen is full. For an average sized male you’re looking at 700-900 grams of carbohydrate daily for multiple days running.
    Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.
    I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.
    What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, it’s a slow process and isn’t complete.
    So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that ‘excess protein just turns to fat’, it’s really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those won’t apply to 99.9% of real-world situations.

  29. #29
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220

  30. #30
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    More Lyle


    How We Get Fat Part 3: Back to Nutrient Intake, Oxidation and Storage
    Now, here’s where people got confused by Excess Protein Intake and Fat Storage – Q&A, and where they would have been unconfused by clicking the linked article on Nutrient Intake, Oxidation and Storage. In fact, I’d suggest you go read it right now, it’s not that long and since I’m not going to retype all of it here (that’s why I wrote it the first time), it’d be a good idea. I’ll wait.
    However, since I know most of you will have just ignored my suggestion to actually read that piece, I’m going to summarize a few points from it (as well as from the Q&A):
    Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such
    When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat
    Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such
    When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)
    Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn’t impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree
    Let’s work through this backwards. When you eat dietary fat, it’s primary fate is storage as its intake has very little impact on fat oxidation (and don’t ask me a bunch of questions about “But people say you have to eat fat to burn fat?” in the comments. That idea is fundamentally wrong but would take an entire article to address). It also doesn’t impact greatly on the oxidation of the protein or carbohydrates.
    Carbohydrates are rarely converted to fat (a process called de novo lipogenesis) under normal dietary conditions. There are exceptions when this occurs. One is with massive chronic overfeeding of carbs. I’m talking 700-900 grams of carbs per day for multiple days. Under those conditions, carbs max out glycogen stores, are in excess of total daily energy requirements and you see the conversion of carbohydrate to fat for storage. But this is not a normal dietary situation for most people.
    A few very stupid studies have shown that glucose INFUSION at levels of 1.5 total daily energy expenditure can cause DNL to occur but this is equally non-physiological. There is also some evidence that DNL may be increased in individuals with hyperinsulinemia (often secondary to obesity). There’s one final exception that I’ll use to finish this piece.
    But when you eat more carbs, you burn more carbs and burn less fat. And that’s why even if carbs aren’t directly converted to fat and stored as such, excess carbs can STILL MAKE YOU FAT. Basically, by inhibiting fat oxidation, excess carbs cause you to store all the fat you’re eating without burning any of it off. Did you get that? Let me repeat it again.
    Carbs don’t make you fat via direct conversion and storage to fat; but excess carbs can still make you fat by blunting out the normal daily fat oxidation so that all of the fat you’re eating is stored. Which is why a 500 cal surplus of fat and a 500 cal surplus of carbs can both make you fat; they just do it for different reasons through different mechanisms. The 500 calories of excess fat is simply stored; the excess 500 calories of carbs ensure that all the fat you’re eating is stored because carb oxidation goes up and fat oxidation goes down. Got it? If not, re-read this paragraph until it sinks in.
    Oh yeah, the same holds for protein. Protein isn’t going to be converted to and stored as fat. But eat excess protein and the body will burn more protein for energy (and less carbs and fat). Which means that the other nutrients have to get stored. Which means that excess protein can still make you fat, just not by direct conversion. Rather, it does it by ensuring that the fat you’re eating gets stored.
    Of course protein also has the highest thermic effect, more of the incoming calories are burned off. So excess protein tends to have the least odds of making you fat under any conditions; but excess protein can make you fat. Just not by direct conversion to fat; rather it’s indirectly by decreasing the oxidation of other nutrients.
    Ok, is the above clear enough? Because I can’t really explain it any simpler but will try one last time using bullet points and an example. Let’s assume someone is eating at exactly maintenance calories. Neither gaining nor losing fat. Here’s what happens with excess calories. Assume that all three conditions represent identical increases in caloric intake, just from each of the different macros. Here’s what happens mechanistically and why all three still make you fat:
    Excess dietary fat is directly stored as fat
    Excess dietary carbs increases carb oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat
    Excess dietary protein increases protein oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat
    Got it? All three situations make you fat, just through different mechanisms. Fat is directly stored and carbs and protein cause you to store the fat you’re eating by decreasing fat oxidation.
    And I’d note again, since someone will invariably misread this that that doesn’t mean that a low-carb and/or low-protein diet is therefore superior for fat loss. I’m not saying that and don’t think that I am. Because in such a situation, while you may be burning more fat, you’re also eating more dietary fat. So net fat balance can be unchanged despite the dicking around with macronutrient content. It still comes down to the deficit.
    .
    The Obvious Question: Why Not Just Eat Zero Dietary Fat?
    And now I’ll answer the question that I know every person who has read (and hopefully understood) the above is asking: so if carbs and protein are rarely converted to and stored as fat, and make you fat by decreasing fat oxidation and causing all ingested dietary fat to get stored as fat, can’t I eat as much as I want of protein and carbs so long as my dietary fat intake is zero?
    And the asnswer is still no. Remember how I teased you above with one other exception, when carbs are converted to fat for storage? That exception is when dietary fat is below about 10% of total daily calories. Under that condition, the body ramps up de novo lipogenesis. So you still get fat.
    Because the body is usually smarter than we are. Under conditions where dietary fat intake is ‘adequate’ (meaning 10% of total calories or more), the primary fate of that fat is storage and protein and carbs are used for other things. And when dietary fat is too low, the body will start converting ingested carbs (and probably protein, though it would still be rare) to fat for storage.
    Oh yeah, the other question you’re going to ask in the comments “What about alcohol?” That’s going to require a full article so be patient. I know that’s another thing lacking on the Internet but so be it.
    And I really hope that clears things up. If it doesn’t, read this piece and the linked articles until it is.

  31. #31
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    I'll read them when I get some more time... Thx for posting em!

    I read the first linked study(which is only been the first of its kind and s very small controlled group)... Which was based on gaining bf% rather than being stored away, or in excess is expelled...

    Just so we are clear I do in fact agree to a point but it's proven that all macros(in excess will be either expelled or stored, to a degree... One can't utilize all 500g of protein(depending on weight obviously) hence why it's Stored or/and expelled....

  32. #32
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    I'll read them when I get some more time... Thx for posting em!

    I read the first linked study(which is only been the first of its kind and s very small controlled group)... Which was based on gaining bf% rather than being stored away, or in excess is expelled...

    Just so we are clear I do in fact agree to a point but it's proven that all macros(in excess will be either expelled or stored, to a degree... One can't utilize all 500g of protein(depending on weight obviously) hence why it's Stored or/and expelled....
    What do you think being stored away is? It's gaining body fat. Your body has adapted to not expel nutrients I healthy individuals. This is an evo-lutionary adaptation.

    In theory yes but in practice that's not how it works. As I've said several times, only dietary fat is stored as fat. Everything else gets used except in very certain circumstances. What you're talking about as proof is based on rat models and/or infusion studies where the nutrients were infused directly into the bloodstream bypassing the whole digestive system. So unless you're talking about rats or infusion has been proven contrary to what you're saying here.

    One CAN utilize 500g of protein regardless of bodyweight. Do you have any idea how long it would take the body to digest all that and then absorb and utilize it after digestion? It would take 5+hrs for it to digest. The ileal tract is the digestive system's natural brake. It slows and speeds up digestion based on meal volume and macro composition. Protein takes an incredibly long time to digest especially 500g of it. What happens is the amino acids get used to replace what's lost from proteolysis, gets used to build new muscle tissue, or gets converted to glucose to be used as energy via gluconeogenesis. Unless you mean stored in muscle tissue as muscle protein does not get stored anywhere else nor does it get expelled via your urine.

  33. #33
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Bubbly piss doesn't mean wasted protein.
    Im on my mobile but here's a fact about expelling protein via urine!


    LINK
    What does protein in urine mean?
    It just means that some of the proteins you've ingested are being pushed out of your body as waste. Well, you'll most always have some protein in your urine, as trace amounts of protein are excreted in your urine as part of normal urine production. The concern is when you have TOO MUCH protein in your urine. This is a symptom known as proteinuria.

    What are the signs of protein in urine?
    How can you tell when you have too much protein in your urine? One of the tell-tale signs of too much is when your urine is very foamy, frothy or bubbly. Another way to diagnose proteinuria would be through a urinalysis.

    What causes the protein in urine?
    What is most likely happening is your body is not breaking down certain proteins properly, or you have been ingesting too much protein for your body to absorb and utilize. When your kidneys are filtering your blood, excess chemicals, minerals, etc are removed. In this case, your body could not metabolize these proteins for one reason or another, so they are expelled from your body in your urine.

    When you have a high concentration of protein in your urine, the protein reacts with the air as you urinate, and you notice it when it hits the water, creating foamy or bubbly urine you may see from time to time.

    Sometimes you may experience this foamy urine or bubbly urine after eating a lot of fish, chicken and other meats. These meats contain muco-proteins. People who take a lot of protein supplements, such as whey protein powder, may see this bubbly urine as well. Why is this? Well, if your body is not breaking down these proteins efficiently, the protein is usually expelled from your body in your urine. The proteins, when combined with the air, then produce a foamy or bubbly urine. Proteinuria caused by eating too much protein in your diet is, of course, temporary, and the proteinuria should diminish as you reduce the amount of protein you are consuming.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    607
    So doc, what happens if i take 600g of carbs and 10g of dietary fat a day and my maintenance is 300g of carbs? I just gain 10g of fat?

  35. #35
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    Im on my mobile but here's a fact about expelling protein via urine!


    LINK
    What does protein in urine mean?
    It just means that some of the proteins you've ingested are being pushed out of your body as waste. Well, you'll most always have some protein in your urine, as trace amounts of protein are excreted in your urine as part of normal urine production. The concern is when you have TOO MUCH protein in your urine. This is a symptom known as proteinuria.

    What are the signs of protein in urine?
    How can you tell when you have too much protein in your urine? One of the tell-tale signs of too much is when your urine is very foamy, frothy or bubbly. Another way to diagnose proteinuria would be through a urinalysis.

    What causes the protein in urine?
    What is most likely happening is your body is not breaking down certain proteins properly, or you have been ingesting too much protein for your body to absorb and utilize. When your kidneys are filtering your blood, excess chemicals, minerals, etc are removed. In this case, your body could not metabolize these proteins for one reason or another, so they are expelled from your body in your urine.

    When you have a high concentration of protein in your urine, the protein reacts with the air as you urinate, and you notice it when it hits the water, creating foamy or bubbly urine you may see from time to time.

    Sometimes you may experience this foamy urine or bubbly urine after eating a lot of fish, chicken and other meats. These meats contain muco-proteins. People who take a lot of protein supplements, such as whey protein powder, may see this bubbly urine as well. Why is this? Well, if your body is not breaking down these proteins efficiently, the protein is usually expelled from your body in your urine. The proteins, when combined with the air, then produce a foamy or bubbly urine. Proteinuria caused by eating too much protein in your diet is, of course, temporary, and the proteinuria should diminish as you reduce the amount of protein you are consuming.
    Remember I said in healthy individuals....someone with proteinuria is not a healthy individual.

    Also

    What is proteinuria?

    Proteinuria means you have protein in your urine.

    The kidneys act as filters and keep protein in your body. Very little or no protein normally appears in the urine.

    Protein in the urine may be an early sign that the kidney's filters have been damaged by disease, allowing protein to leak into the urine.
    ^^^^ from kidney.org

  36. #36
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by EquilibriumZ View Post
    So doc, what happens if i take 600g of carbs and 10g of dietary fat a day and my maintenance is 300g of carbs? I just gain 10g of fat?
    No bc when dietary fat intake is under ~10% of energy intake de novo lipogenesis ramps up. This is one of the exceptions I noted above.

    There also is no "maintenance" of carbs but I think I understand what you're trying to say.

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123
    No bc when dietary fat intake is under ~10% of energy intake de novo lipogenesis ramps up. This is one of the exceptions I noted above. There also is no "maintenance" of carbs but I think I understand what you're trying to say.
    Oh i see, ya my maintenance i meant TDEE.

    So what's is the most important part of diet besides getting the macros? Meal timing for efficiency (muscle spikes, forgot term lol)?

  38. #38
    Docd187123 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by EquilibriumZ View Post
    Oh i see, ya my maintenance i meant TDEE.

    So what's is the most important part of diet besides getting the macros? Meal timing for efficiency (muscle spikes, forgot term lol)?
    Most important part of diet is getting in your calories and macros which are dictated by your stats and goals followed by eating diverse foods so as to get a full range of micros. Meal timing is important but it's also highly individualistic as some people can train fasted fine some train in a post-prandial state better. Meal timing won't affect your body comp but it can affect your training intensity so time your meals in such a way as to maximize gym performance.

    I also try to stay away from telling people which specific foods to eat as they have intolerances to certain foods or just not like them. Consistency is another very important concept in diet and many ppl cannot be consistent if they hate what they're eating everyday.

  39. #39
    NACH3's Avatar
    NACH3 is offline VET
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baking chicken
    Posts
    19,418
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Remember I said in healthy individuals....someone with proteinuria is not a healthy individual.

    Also



    ^^^^ from kidney.org
    Proteinuria is simply too much protein one has taken in(resulting in foamy bubbly urine)... Most all BBers(or athletes)will consume more protein than they need! This does not mean they are unhealthy by pissing it out! It happens! It's just reality... I'm not saying it's the best decision but I would rather take in more than less and secrete some as it states there's always some protein in urine(how much is obviously dependent on persons height/weight)

    Also you were the one who brought up the 500g dose of protein earlier then you want to go back and say how hard it would be to not only consume that much but digesting it and utilizing it would be damn near impossible...which = spill over.... More common then ya think...
    Last edited by NACH3; 03-17-2015 at 01:29 PM.

  40. #40
    woody127's Avatar
    woody127 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post

    What does it mean? It's something(that the body is expelling!)

    Your body can not absorb all macros, hence them getting stored as fat/sugars etc if not used as fuel!!
    I also know of people who have been to the doctors and the doctor as said there's a lot of protein in there urine lmao
    NACH3 likes this.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •