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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    I did not compare "flat earthers" to "vegans" -- I compared "flat earthers" to "vegan MORALISTS" .. big difference. being vegan as simply a way of eating is one thing, but having far out there vegan idealogies and moral stands is a whole other thing all together (I know plenty of vegans who eat that way for their diet, and have no moral stand and do not think I'm immoral for eating meat)


    your statistics are counting veganism as a whole and a way of eating . again, vegan idealogy and vegan moralists are a very rare sub cult of vegans.
    its no different then some rare Christian cult and their whack job beleifs claiming they are the true representation of all of Christianity (billions of people), when the cult is really just a few hundred whack jobs that have went off the deep end.


    I'm totally fine with people going vegan in their diet (more meat for me) I think they are completely within reason. but 'vegan moralism" is a whole different thing and is essentially a religion and a world view, and not a nutrition debate or stand.
    FYI, I don’t preach vegan to my family or anyone.. If I’m asked, I’ll answer. I visit factory farms, slaughter houses and bare witness the animals going in to die, out of respect and a chance to give the poor animals some water and a second of compassion that they deserve.

    You didn’t compare, but it seems you’re putting us in the same group of people… And there is no ideology in anything I have said, everything I have said is factual, the stats I’ve given you are correct, there’s not one thing I’ve said in this conversation that isn’t current reality.

    Well it wouldn’t be more meat for you, supply and demand… All I’ve asked is for a moral justification for consuming flesh, that’s it. All you’ve come up with is tradition, religion and culture. All of which isn’t set in stone and changed year after year… I’ve debunked all three.

    I’ve been consistent in my argument.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    yeah I know.. that sounds totally whacky that those people would think the other people are immoral for doing what is perfectly natural and normal to them.

    thats why also to me it sounds totally whacky for a vegan to think a meat eater is selfish and immoral for eating a can of tuna . its laughable really.

    but I'm all for people believing any crazy shit they want to believe . so long as that belief does NOT infringe on the rights of another 'human' being
    (the minute you infringe on my rights and take my steak away I'll slit your damn throat
    Again, the difference is there is no victim in the scenario you presented. Its whacky to think that 56 billion land animals die a year to feed 7.6 billion humans… Where’s the whacky extreme?

    And it’s not a belief, it’s a reality. It’s happening! Religion is a belief, animals being killed for consumption happens every day, there’s evidence to prove this…

    Don’t worry no one will take your little steak knife away buddy… As I said, one day maybe not in your life time, everyone will be eating meat frown from a lab or some form of alternative as what we are doing is not sustainable and what we are doing to the animals is not justifiable.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couchlockd View Post
    Oh, make no mistake, it's flat as a pancake.

    I'm a once vegetarian now omnivore who believes the Earth is flat as well as believe plants have feelings.

    I enjoy all things food. Cows, chickens, chicken embryos, broccoli, kale, veggies and fish.

    I've said this before too, if I could I'd like to try human meat from an ifbb pro. I used to tell my dad when I was 12, that if he ever died, I'd eat his triceps and pecs before I call the meat wagon.

    Yes, I'm the total package.
    Damn.. You sure are dude!

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    everything I have said is factual
    you've said that eating meat is selfish and immoral behavior..

    please provide the facts that show this to be true.

    I mean if something was really that bad and wrong, why can I freely walk down the street into any store and buy meat to eat. I can't do that with cocoaine, or steroids , heck even alcohol has requirements.

    surely something that morally bad would be recognized as bad by the legal systems, societies, cultures etc.. but in fact, just the opposite is true.
    meat eating is actually looked at as a good thing in nearly every facet of life and society.

    every year in America we celebrate "turkey day" and flop a dead bird on the table and all give thanks to be able to eat its flesh.
    eating meat is seen as a 'good thing' .

    to prove that its morally wrong is going to be needed by YOU to provide. not me to need to be able to justify.
    the weight of evidence is on my side here.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    one day maybe not in your life time, everyone will be eating meat frown from a lab or some form of alternative.
    well I hope not.

    just shows how different our view points are. personally I like a little bit of blood in my meat. I want the dead animal carcass , I want its very soul. not some fake version of it grown in a lab.
    ^ I'm not alone here either. me and billions upon billions of other people feel and have felt the same way
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 01-11-2019 at 12:03 PM.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    you've said that eating meat is selfish and immoral behavior..

    please provide the facts that show this to be true.

    I mean if something was really that bad and wrong, why can I freely walk down the street into any store and buy meat to eat. I can't do that with cocoaine, or steroids , heck even alcohol has requirements.

    surely something that morally bad would be recognized as bad by the legal systems, societies, cultures etc.. but in fact, just the opposite is true.
    meat eating is actually looked at as a good thing in nearly every facet of life and society.

    every year in America we celebrate "turkey day" and flop a dead bird on the table and all give thanks to be able to eat its flesh.
    eating meat is seen as a 'good thing' .

    to prove that its morally wrong is going to be needed by YOU to provide. not me to need to be able to justify.
    the weight of evidence is on my side here.
    Its selfish, we can see its selfish you don’t need scientific evidence to see this, just some common sense and witnessing what’s happening with the eyes god have you!

    You’re taking a life of an animal of whom didn’t want to die, it’s immoral as it’s not a necessity. Unless of course if your living off the land, which you are not. Yes you’d need to provide the justification as you’re the one eating it!

    Also read through the discussion, I have provided plenty of information showing that it is not morally justified... More than enough information, i've countered everything you've said and stayed consistent!

  7. #127
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    the giving of a life, to sustain a life, is how life works.
    getting rid of this idea and concept is a new age belief system that believes in some possible "utopia" where this does not exist.

    this concept is deeply rooted in culture and history and religion.. even the foundation of religion itself is built upon this idea, where God himself had to give up his own life, to give mankind life. there is NO life without death. killing an animal to sustain life of mankind is just a small picture of how the universe really works
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    it’s immoral as it’s not a necessity.
    lol you keep saying that eating meat is immoral .

    ok lets define immoral

    definition
    "immoral" - not conforming to common and accepted standards

    now how the hell is me eating a can of tuna somehow "not conforming to common and accepted standards" ??

    I would say just the opposite. I'd say that eating meat IS the common and accepted standard.

    if we go merely by the definition, I'd say that refusing to eating meat is actually what would be immoral and not a common standard

    I think that Vegan idealogies and ideals are actually what is Immoral and wrong way of thinking . you have it ass backwards . you all are the ones not conforming to the common and accepted standards
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 01-11-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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  9. #129
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    I will say this.

    Most of you know I lost 55% of my bodyweight in 2012. 260 down to 130.

    Anyway when I was dropping that dramatic amount if weight, I was eating
    "Vegetarian" ish.

    I ate tuna, milk and eggs whites. That was it from the "non-vegatarian" menu.

    Everything else was veggies and legumes. Hemp Protien, whole pea smoothies etc.

    I honestly felt my heathiest bring 90% vegetarian. I lost weight like crazy. Mainly due to exercise, but I think the vegetarian diet made it that much quicker.

    I decided to do that after watching my dog get put down. It wrecked my mind. I couldn't fathom a poor ol' cow or chicken being killed. Even to this day, I watch a farm documentary and I begin to question if Im ok with eating mamal and avian flesh. It's the look on the animals face that sticks with me. The confused helpless "fucking help me" look. It is heartbreaking. No one can say it isnt.

    If I Could afford to be vegetarian and have the money fir complete plant based Protien to feed my body, I would.

    I just don't have the money and time to plan the meals. Mainly money.

    Now I want to ask you die hard vegans this because this was always on my mind.

    Let's say the vegetables you're eating are grown organically which I'm sure a lot of you vegans prefer organic foods do you realize those vegetables in grains and everything are more than likely 99.9% of the time grown with carbon-based organic fertilizers from composted dead things. Bat guano, blood and bone meal, poultry litter, fish meal, Earth worm castings, etc. Yes they do use things like kelp,seaweed, nettle. But thise provide trace elements more than macro elements (N-P-K-Ca-Mg)

    now as most of you know I'm a fan of cannabis and some of you can even assume that I've probably grown this stuff before, well your assumption is right.

    I started out growing hydro with synthetic chemically derive nutrients then moved on to organic bottled nutrients then I moved on to built organic super soil were you just really need to add nothing but reverse osmosis water.

    Now I have ran a complete veganic garden before and I can tell you it's hard to get a complete nutrient profile growing an vegan-organic crop it's not impossible but it is expensive very fucking expensive and I can guarantee you none of the food you're eating in the store is grown on a veganic organic feed system.

    So do you die-hard vegans consider it immoral that animals are killed to grow the plants that you're eating?
    Last edited by Couchlockd; 01-11-2019 at 12:44 PM.

  10. #130
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    Will get you guys back in a bit, can’t answer to this on my phone.... Pull day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    I have no problem with Someone’s diet of choice. But the vegans are unusually militant in their beliefs and want to force complete consumption of meat to zero by 2035.

    Mihrshahi, Seema, et al. “Vegetarian Diet and All-cause Mortality: Evidence from a Large Population-Based Australian Cohort – The 45 And Up Study.”
    Preventive Medicine. December 2016.
    There's definitely friendly vegans and not-so-friendly vegans. I did it for a little over a year as more of a spiritual/health perspective, but you hit the nail on the head with the word "militant". There's some touchy folks in that crew...kinda reminded me of how bad some "promise keepers" need to get laid really bad. Eat a burger already! You'll feel great AND be less of an arse hole...win win

    Personally, I didn't think he looked juiced, but he definitely isn't what I'm shooting for either.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    Its about doing everything in your power to decrease the harm and suffering of animals, i cant go to Africa and stop the lions from doing what they need to do to survive, as id do the same in their shoes... Same as the coyotes.
    Right here you just said it.
    Doing everything in our power to decrease the suffering of animals.

    You euros look at things backwards from to many decades of feminine view.

    Your logic of saving animals pain by allowing them to die a "natural" death is a joke.

    Humans are the caretakers of the earth and that is that. Let the animal suffer of give it a quick death.
    They are here for us and you can put any spin on it you want but it won't change what is.

    You have your beliefs and I wont change them no matter how weak they are.
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  13. #133
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    Euros get pretty dumb.

    No meat will never be illegal.
    The people who control the planet are like me.
    Sorry but we are the law and always will be.
    To think that someone has to fit your ideals by any logic is where the heel of my boot penetrates your temple. Suddenly logic doesnt enter into it.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    lol you keep saying that eating meat is immoral .

    ok lets define immoral

    definition
    "immoral" - not conforming to common and accepted standards

    now how the hell is me eating a can of tuna somehow "not conforming to common and accepted standards" ??

    I would say just the opposite. I'd say that eating meat IS the common and accepted standard.

    if we go merely by the definition, I'd say that refusing to eating meat is actually what would be immoral and not a common standard

    I think that Vegan idealogies and ideals are actually what is Immoral and wrong way of thinking . you have it ass backwards . you all are the ones not conforming to the common and accepted standards
    Moral = Not conforming to accept standards of morality. Synonyms: Unethical, Bad, Evil, Unfair, Devious…

    Not sure where you got your definition from?

    Do you not think its evil to enslave animals, put them through hell to then slit their throats? Would you do this to your own dog, or your neighbour’s cat?

    What’s immoral about being vegan? Lol.. You got this a touch twisted, We don’t kill animals, we are eco-friendly, we are compassionate, we are ethical…. What do we do that’s immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    the giving of a life, to sustain a life, is how life works.
    getting rid of this idea and concept is a new age belief system that believes in some possible "utopia" where this does not exist.

    this concept is deeply rooted in culture and history and religion.. even the foundation of religion itself is built upon this idea, where God himself had to give up his own life, to give mankind life. there is NO life without death. killing an animal to sustain life of mankind is just a small picture of how the universe really works
    Well it’s not getting rid of the concept (which is exactly what it is, just a concept) its changing the concept slightly to savour what’s left of planet earth and remove the suffering of innocent animals which in turn will savour humanity! Again, religion and culture are not justifications.. In some religions genital mutilation is fine, some cultures cannibalism is fine.. All because it’s part of a religion or culture doesn’t mean its ok to carry out the acts of genital mutilation and cannibalism…

    All because the bible says something it doesn’t mean it’s right, is my point. Religion doesn’t provide a necessity for us to exploit animals and as such it still remains unnecessary and therefore impossible to morally justify.

    As I said before, using a religious belief to justify killing animals is exactly the same as using a religious belief to oppress homosexuals or women. In fact, if the logic “my religion says I can eat animals” makes eating animals moral, then by default the argument “my religion says it’s okay to treat homosexuals or women as less than me” must also make oppressing homosexuals and women moral. If you dong agree, then your logically inconsistent.

    And also ref your previous post where you said I need to come up with a justification, why would I do that? You’re on the side of eating meat I’m on the side of not, why would I give you a justification to eat meat lol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Euros get pretty dumb.

    No meat will never be illegal.
    The people who control the planet are like me.
    Sorry but we are the law and always will be.
    To think that someone has to fit your ideals by any logic is where the heel of my boot penetrates your temple. Suddenly logic doesnt enter into it.
    Yes, but what about the vegans food being grown with animal derived inputs?

    I am curious as I really want to see the answer to this caveat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Right here you just said it.
    Doing everything in our power to decrease the suffering of animals.

    You euros look at things backwards from to many decades of feminine view.

    Your logic of saving animals pain by allowing them to die a "natural" death is a joke.

    Humans are the caretakers of the earth and that is that. Let the animal suffer of give it a quick death.
    They are here for us and you can put any spin on it you want but it won't change what is.

    You have your beliefs and I wont change them no matter how weak they are.
    I love you obs and this is me just putting in my two cents .
    I understand what you are saying by quick death and if that were the case , I could agree to that
    I come to terms that this world will never be vegan , it's a reality ,
    But we both know animals are mistreated all.over the world not because it has to be that way but because they choose to do that.

    I've watched men torture animals for the fun of it and it leaves me very bitter to the core.

    Cowards rape women and I believe any man to go above and beyond to mistreated an a animal just cause is morbid to all degree's.

    Unfortunately we live in a society where so many human's have such low self-esteem and lack of confidence where they always turn to mental or physical abuse to people or animals they know they can over power them.

    I hope your Friday is going awesome

    Sent from my JSN-AL00 using Tapatalk

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couchlockd View Post
    I will say this.

    Most of you know I lost 55% of my bodyweight in 2012. 260 down to 130.

    Anyway when I was dropping that dramatic amount if weight, I was eating
    "Vegetarian" ish.

    I ate tuna, milk and eggs whites. That was it from the "non-vegatarian" menu.

    Everything else was veggies and legumes. Hemp Protien, whole pea smoothies etc.

    I honestly felt my heathiest bring 90% vegetarian. I lost weight like crazy. Mainly due to exercise, but I think the vegetarian diet made it that much quicker.

    I decided to do that after watching my dog get put down. It wrecked my mind. I couldn't fathom a poor ol' cow or chicken being killed. Even to this day, I watch a farm documentary and I begin to question if Im ok with eating mamal and avian flesh. It's the look on the animals face that sticks with me. The confused helpless "fucking help me" look. It is heartbreaking. No one can say it isnt.

    If I Could afford to be vegetarian and have the money fir complete plant based Protien to feed my body, I would.

    I just don't have the money and time to plan the meals. Mainly money.

    Now I want to ask you die hard vegans this because this was always on my mind.

    Let's say the vegetables you're eating are grown organically which I'm sure a lot of you vegans prefer organic foods do you realize those vegetables in grains and everything are more than likely 99.9% of the time grown with carbon-based organic fertilizers from composted dead things. Bat guano, blood and bone meal, poultry litter, fish meal, Earth worm castings, etc. Yes they do use things like kelp,seaweed, nettle. But thise provide trace elements more than macro elements (N-P-K-Ca-Mg)

    now as most of you know I'm a fan of cannabis and some of you can even assume that I've probably grown this stuff before, well your assumption is right.

    I started out growing hydro with synthetic chemically derive nutrients then moved on to organic bottled nutrients then I moved on to built organic super soil were you just really need to add nothing but reverse osmosis water.

    Now I have ran a complete veganic garden before and I can tell you it's hard to get a complete nutrient profile growing an vegan-organic crop it's not impossible but it is expensive very fucking expensive and I can guarantee you none of the food you're eating in the store is grown on a veganic organic feed system.

    So do you die-hard vegans consider it immoral that animals are killed to grow the plants that you're eating?

    Congrats on the weight loss! 

    Yeah it’s not nice, and sorry to hear about your dog! It is sad, that’s why I don’t contribute to anything that will put animals in this position, did you know pigs are more intelligent than dogs? When they go into that gas chamber, they know exactly what’s happening and they literally shit themselves because they are so fucking scared. I’ve been to both cattle and pig farms, you can see it in their eyes that they are suffering and all they want it some help and some love. Its fucking horrendous.

    Sure, you’d certainly feel healthier in a vegetarian diet. A lot of people generally do!

    With regards to Money, I eat around 3000 calories a day at the moment, 180-200 protein. I spend around £50 a week on food. My diet consists of beans, legumes, rice and tofu. Also some fruit and veggies. It isn’t expensive, just need to find the right foods and supermarket, jeez when I ate meat id spend £50 a week on chicken alone!!

    Now onto grains!! Depending on the crop and the animal, you can get up to 20 times the number of calories per acre growing human foodstuffs than grain for animals. An average of 8 pounds of grain is used to produce a pound of beef. It takes about 2 pounds of grain to produce one pound of chicken meat, about 4 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of pork. This does not take into account the additional fuels and other resources required to keep, transport, and slaughter the animals. So by going vegan you will still be using overall less grain/greens. .

    Yes, animals are killed during harvesting grain/vegetables. Vegan means to reduce suffering as much as possible, unfortunately this is going to happen regardless. But again as per above, a vegan will consume less grain than a meat eater due to the amount of grain that is fed to animals for consumption. So as a vegan you are still killing 95% less animals than a meat eater.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Right here you just said it.
    Doing everything in our power to decrease the suffering of animals.

    You euros look at things backwards from to many decades of feminine view.

    Your logic of saving animals pain by allowing them to die a "natural" death is a joke.

    Humans are the caretakers of the earth and that is that. Let the animal suffer of give it a quick death.
    They are here for us and you can put any spin on it you want but it won't change what is.

    You have your beliefs and I wont change them no matter how weak they are.
    What do we look at backward exactly, your making claims and not backing them up!

    Our logic, is to decrease the insane number of 56 billion land animals down to a normal range by going vegan to help save our planet because once the earths "care takers" fuck it up, we are fucked! Wheres your logic?

    Animals will get killed in the wild whether we mass produce them or not, there are still wild animals everywhere.. so not sure where your going with this?

    And no beliefs here, just facts mate. Just facts.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    As I said before, using a religious belief to justify killing animals is exactly the same as using a religious belief to oppress homosexuals or women.
    the same way in which your saying a "religious belief" is used to oppress a homosexual (by saying they are immoral for their actions) , is EXACTLY what your doing by using your belief to say my choosing to eat meat is immoral .

    the vegan moralist is the one coming across as the 'religious' oppressive biggot in this situation by saying that eating meat is immoral .

    I'm the one being non judgmental here and saying let the meat eater eat, and let the veggie eater eat WITHOUT moral judgement. which is exactly what the Bible says about this argument (not that we need a 'bible' here to tell us this, it should be common sense not to morally judge another human because of what he eats to sustain his own life)
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 01-11-2019 at 03:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    Congrats on the weight loss! 

    Yeah it’s not nice, and sorry to hear about your dog! It is sad, that’s why I don’t contribute to anything that will put animals in this position, did you know pigs are more intelligent than dogs? When they go into that gas chamber, they know exactly what’s happening and they literally shit themselves because they are so fucking scared. I’ve been to both cattle and pig farms, you can see it in their eyes that they are suffering and all they want it some help and some love. Its fucking horrendous.

    Sure, you’d certainly feel healthier in a vegetarian diet. A lot of people generally do!

    With regards to Money, I eat around 3000 calories a day at the moment, 180-200 protein. I spend around £50 a week on food. My diet consists of beans, legumes, rice and tofu. Also some fruit and veggies. It isn’t expensive, just need to find the right foods and supermarket, jeez when I ate meat id spend £50 a week on chicken alone!!

    Now onto grains!! Depending on the crop and the animal, you can get up to 20 times the number of calories per acre growing human foodstuffs than grain for animals. An average of 8 pounds of grain is used to produce a pound of beef. It takes about 2 pounds of grain to produce one pound of chicken meat, about 4 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of pork. This does not take into account the additional fuels and other resources required to keep, transport, and slaughter the animals. So by going vegan you will still be using overall less grain/greens. .

    Yes, animals are killed during harvesting grain/vegetables. Vegan means to reduce suffering as much as possible, unfortunately this is going to happen regardless. But again as per above, a vegan will consume less grain than a meat eater due to the amount of grain that is fed to animals for consumption. So as a vegan you are still killing 95% less animals than a meat eater.
    Awesome. I wasn't "hating" or anything. As I said, if I could I would be 90% vegetarian. I know, not close to being vegan.

    I was just curious how vegans approach the animal byproduct feeding to the plants.

    Thanks for clearing it up
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  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Euros get pretty dumb.

    No meat will never be illegal.
    The people who control the planet are like me.
    Sorry but we are the law and always will be.
    To think that someone has to fit your ideals by any logic is where the heel of my boot penetrates your temple. Suddenly logic doesnt enter into it.
    Haha...

    Meat illegal? Of course that'll never happen. It is ironic though that you can get arrested for torturing someones dog yet factory farm workers don't get arrested for treating their animals badly?

    The people who control the planet are like you, suppose I can agree with that! That's why its so bloody scary... Your great Obs but jeez you can do better than that. Anyway, buyers are the source, we don't need the people that control the earth to make the decisions, as consumers if we stop buying they will stop producing... Basic economics.

    Come on man... no need to stoop so damn low!! Its a debate, of course we need logic otherwise you could come out with all sorts of bullshit... Jesus, we live by logic, its logical to drive a car to work because it saves time and energy.. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Couchlockd View Post
    Awesome. I wasn't "hating" or anything. As I said, if I could I would be 90% vegetarian. I know, not close to being vegan.

    I was just curious how vegans approach the animal byproduct feeding to the plants.

    Thanks for clearing it up
    No worries brother, appreciate you being open minded!

    Just do what you can, the smallest things make a huge difference!!

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    we've had standards and laws for thousands and thousands of years. there are silly laws on the books out there like "you can't drive a black car on Sundays", "you can't cross the street expect through a cross walk" , etc.. surely if eating meat was morally wrong, there would be a law in the books about that by now.
    but there is not because it is absolutely ludacris and insane to think that eating meat is morally wrong or some sort of crime.

    now of course there are laws on the books as far as animal cruelty, there are laws and standards for hunting , and farming etc.. that's a whole different topic.

    BUT eating meat itself as being immoral. thats off the deep end and crazy thinking imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisp83TRT View Post
    I come to terms that this world will never be vegan , it's a reality
    There will come a time when the planet can no longer sustain the current environmental impact animal agriculture is having. This is why lab meat is currently being formulated, it wont be long until farming is demolished and factory labs are growing meat from cells!

    This is technically vegan!

    In our life time? I think there will be a huge decrease in animals produced for consumption but it wont be down to zero, maybe in a few life times, but it'll happen if it doesn't we are fucked!

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    This thread has encouraged me to look at ways to increase my meat intake. I don’t mind vegans just leaves more meat for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redz View Post
    This thread has encouraged me to look at ways to increase my meat intake..
    lol . its kinda like a kid (or adult for that matter) that is told what he is doing is wrong, he now wants to do it more just to spite the people who told him it was wrong.

    me being told that I'm selfish and immoral because I eat meat doesn't convince me of much, it actually makes me now want to suddenly go grab my rifle and shoot a deer and cook up some back straps for dinner .
    just because I know for fact I'm not morally wrong in so doing . heck I'll shoot the deer and Bambi both just to prove the point. and if daddy deer walks by too I'll shoot him too and then hang his head on my wall , and if his antlers are big enough, instead of being condemned for doing something morally wrong, I may actually be glorified for it by my peers and featured on the covers of magazines for shooting a world class record breaking buck. (thats the reality of the real world we live in)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    the same way in which your saying a "religious belief" is used to oppress a homosexual (by saying they are immoral for their actions) , is EXACTLY what your doing by using your belief to say my choosing to eat meat is immoral .

    the vegan moralist is the one coming across as the 'religious' oppressive biggot in this situation by saying that eating meat is immoral .

    I'm the one being non judgmental here and saying let the meat eater eat, and let the veggie eater eat WITHOUT moral judgement. which is exactly what the Bible says about this argument (not that we need a 'bible' here to tell us this, it should be common sense not to morally judge another human because of what he eats to sustain his own life)
    I was just going by your logic but putting it in a slightly altered context, I was simply looking for consistency in your argument.

    We are going to keep going round in circles with this one, again… Can you please morally justify killing an innocent being for food? There is no moral justification, you do it because of tradition, culture and religion?

    They do not justify the slaughter of innocent animals.

    Cultural tradition cements us in our past transgressions. If humanity is to ever evolve past abusing animals, we need to erase all concepts of tradition, for tradition is the construct of ego, passed on by generations to eradicate and deter the threat of change. Tradition has never and will never be a valid excuse for the acts we have committed as a species and especially not for the continued murder and consumption of sentient life. Is bullfighting morally justified because its tradition?

    Slavery was once a tradition, is this justified because it was a tradition?

    Some Christians believe being gay is a sin, is it a sin just because the bible says so?

    I don’t judge humans on ANYTHING, but I will question your choices when there is a victim involved, the death of an animal isn’t required to sustain life, not in this day and age, not right now, not for you personally!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    we've had standards and laws for thousands and thousands of years. there are silly laws on the books out there like "you can't drive a black car on Sundays", "you can't cross the street expect through a cross walk" , etc.. surely if eating meat was morally wrong, there would be a law in the books about that by now.
    but there is not because it is absolutely ludacris and insane to think that eating meat is morally wrong or some sort of crime.

    now of course there are laws on the books as far as animal cruelty, there are laws and standards for hunting , and farming etc.. that's a whole different topic.

    BUT eating meat itself as being immoral. thats off the deep end and crazy thinking imo.
    Again.. Whats moral about slaughtering an animal to consume its flesh when it isn't a necessity? Its not crazy, i could say its crazy to kill 56 billion land animals every year to feed 7.6 billion humans..

    Animal cruelty isn't a different topic. Do you not think factory farming is cruel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by redz View Post
    This thread has encouraged me to look at ways to increase my meat intake. I don’t mind vegans just leaves more meat for me.
    Supply and demand... Less demand, less meat.. Sorry sir, you'll be left with what you already have, and chances are the prices will go up unfortunately!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    I was just going by your logic but putting it in a slightly altered context, I was simply looking for consistency in your argument.
    We are going to keep going round in circles with this one, again… Can you please morally justify killing an innocent being for food? There is no moral justification, you do it because of tradition, culture and religion?
    again ,, being 'moral' is doing whats socially acceptable and right.

    lets say your on trial for committing a crime. there are 12 jurors , your peers, that are going to decide your fate. if the 12 of them say you are not guilty, then you get off and are not guilty. period.

    I'm not using 'tradition' or 'religion' as anything other then a consensus for representing humanity and the views of billions and billions of people for thousands of years. the whole host of history and all these people are my "jury" saying that I'm in fact innocent and not guilty of immorality for eating meat.
    again the definition of morality is doing what socially acceptable and common. and eating meat is definitely that .

    its only you and a few select outsiders that are saying eating meat is immoral. you'd be the one whack job that would have been thrown off the jury panel

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    lol . its kinda like a kid (or adult for that matter) that is told what he is doing is wrong, he now wants to do it more just to spite the people who told him it was wrong.

    me being told that I'm selfish and immoral because I eat meat doesn't convince me of much, it actually makes me now want to suddenly go grab my rifle and shoot a deer and cook up some back straps for dinner .
    just because I know for fact I'm not morally wrong in so doing . heck I'll shoot the deer and Bambi both just to prove the point. and if daddy deer walks by too I'll shoot him too and then hang his head on my wall , and if his antlers are big enough, instead of being condemned for doing something morally wrong, I may actually be glorified for it by my peers and featured on the covers of magazines for shooting a world class record breaking buck. (thats the reality of the real world we live in)
    Ha ha, stooping low my friend. Stooping low. There is nothing less manly that using a gun to shoot an animal doing nothing but living its life in the wild... just because you can! We can all do fucked up shit, does mean we go and do it!

    Man at his greatest. (All i see is a fat pussy, would love to see him fight this animal in a cage with his bare hands)

    Meet this natural vegan bodybuilder..-lion-10b.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    There is nothing less manly that using a gun to shoot an animal
    theres nothing "manly" about hunting. where I'm from, women and children hunt too. it has nothing to do with being 'many' or tough at all.

    the fact that you think thats why men even hunt, just shows how far apart our society and world views are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    again ,, being 'moral' is doing whats socially acceptable and right.

    lets say your on trial for committing a crime. there are 12 jurors , your peers, that are going to decide your fate. if the 12 of them say you are not guilty, then you get off and are not guilty. period.

    I'm not using 'tradition' or 'religion' as anything other then a consensus for representing humanity and the views of billions and billions of people for thousands of years. the whole host of history and all these people are my "jury" saying that I'm in fact innocent and not guilty of immorality for eating meat.
    again the definition of morality is doing what socially acceptable and common. and eating meat is definitely that .

    its only you and a few select outsiders that are saying eating meat is immoral. you'd be the one whack job that would have been thrown off the jury panel
    Moral = Not conforming to accept standards of morality. Synonyms: Unethical, Bad, Evil, Unfair, Devious…

    Even if morality was doing what’s socially acceptable, again slavery was socially acceptable….

    So because we have done It for thousands of years and because of this a majority eats meat obviously, that makes it morally justified? Scrap the moral part if we are going to disagree on the definition.. is it justified because we have done it for years?

    Surely if eating animals is acceptable because cavemen did it, then raping and murdering one another today must also be justifiable?
    Last edited by Eduke93; 01-11-2019 at 04:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    theres nothing "manly" about hunting. where I'm from, women and children hunt too. it has nothing to do with being 'many' or tough at all.

    the fact that you think thats why men even hunt, just shows how far apart our society and world views are.
    I live in UK, we dont hunt.

    Tell me why do you hunt? I understand in some areas it is a requirement and actually better for the animals. But as you said, you felt the need to go and kill a deer for no reason at all but to prove a point. That to me, is pointless and a tad sad

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    where I'm from, even people who don't hunt and perhaps mainly eat a plant based diet , will still congratulate their neighbor on a successful hunt though.
    we don't judge each other like that.

    where you live, its sounds very different though. sounds like a judgmental twisted place to be
    Obs likes this.

  36. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    Surely if eating animals is acceptable because cavemen did it, then raping and murdering one another today must also be justifiable?
    most of humanity doesn't eat meat because cavemen did lol.
    If we wanted to imitate cavemen we would likely just go vegan, because its quite possible the earliest of mankind did not eat meat and thats why they were less evolved and did not have fully developed brains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    where I'm from, even people who don't hunt and perhaps mainly eat a plant based diet , will still congratulate their neighbor on a successful hunt though.
    we don't judge each other like that.

    where you live, its sounds very different though. sounds like a judgmental twisted place to be
    The meat eater buys their meat from the supermarket, same place i get my vegan goodies!

    I love where I live, just bought a house in a more rural area, lots of wildlife and greenery! its beautiful... Certainly not twisted! Brits certainly keep to them selves a little more though... and i don't know anyone who would congratulate a neighbour for killing a rabbit with a gun! Even the meat eaters would call them out and say they where sickos!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    most of humanity doesn't eat meat because cavemen did lol.
    If we wanted to imitate cavemen we would likely just go vegan, because its quite possible the earliest of mankind did not eat meat and thats why they were less evolved and did not have fully developed brains.
    Well cavemen did it to survive (they ate some meat), if they didn't we wouldn't be here. But their doing so doesn't justify it today in our society!

    We have plenty of other torture free products available to us, its great!
    Last edited by Eduke93; 01-11-2019 at 04:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduke93 View Post
    Brits certainly keep to them selves a little more though... and i don't know anyone who would congratulate a neighbour for killing a rabbit with a gun! Even the meat eaters would call them out and say they where sickos!
    well then its no wonder why the first Americans risked all they had, their lives, their families ,etc.. to sail across the world seeking freedom and a new home in America. so they wouldn't be condemned and considered sickos for doing something so natural and free

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    well then its no wonder why the first Americans risked all they had, their lives, their families ,etc.. to sail across the world seeking freedom and a new home in America. so they wouldn't be condemned and considered sickos for doing something so natural and free
    Back then, sure it would have been the norm... Sure they where living of the land, they needed to do something to survive! I know i would have killed and eaten animals back then if i needed to!

    Now, well now its just unnecessary!

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