Meet this natural vegan bodybuilder..

[GearHeaded]

And I respect what you are saying and respect you as a person , you can't speak for the rest.
The way our government is operated is a pure joke.
Cutting corners in the us is basically a normal which is why everyone looks at us like we are a joke looking from the outside .

For Christ sakes, look who is president.

If you think people operate by the book ? C'mon brother .

I'm not saying everyone but I can say I'm sure tons either pay these inspectors off , know someone or simply are told to cut corners to keep production up to par.
I'm not saying where you are operates this way but we live in the u.s. ... Everywhere is surrounded by greed and we don't usually get there playing by the rules.

We can go back and forth and i don't mind as I love hearing what others have to say as we are all brothers here
So I ask for respect and open minded thoughts on all matters as that's how we can all come together and live and love life all together .

I'll agree with the jist of what your saying here.
yeah wither its the farming industry , Wall Street, big pharma, town hall, or the Catholic Church . greed and corruption lives. and some people (and some animals) are going to be mistreated no doubt

[Eduke93]

by asking that question your assuming that I have or do "take the life of a fellow being" and that I should "justify" doing so -

definitions -
- "fellow being" - if you refer to someone as a fellow being, you are emphasizing that you and they are human beings and have things in common.
the Collins Dictionary

- "justification" - an acceptable reason for doing something : something that justifies an act or way of behaving.
Webster Dictionary

I've never taken the life of a fellow being , and have no need to justify and act I've never done.


if my eating a can of Tuna , in your world view , is equal to the above .. then thats pretty darn weird brother


now, if you want me to justify my act of eating a can of Tuna. thats a different question all together

As a whole human race we need justification to do what we do to animals, now individually you haven’t slaughtered the animal personally, but supply and demand, you pay, producer makes money, they make more and kill more animals. You’re not solely reasonable, but you’re a part of the process.

Being = Existence, they are beings, they are existing on this earth as we are. They are NOT human beings obviously… I am not saying that we are both on the same level of sentience, we all know that isn’t true. But we do have things in common, we feel pain, we can suffer, we feel emotion…

I’d like to know your justification for your eating animal flesh?

[Eduke93]

Beer and French Fries are Vegan ! I'm gong to live longer eating that then my lean cut chicken salad ?

either way . we are all going to die of heart disease or cancer unless we get hit by a bus before that can happen (vegan or meat eater don't matter)

Hell no, that’s exactly my point! When you say vegans will get cancer and heart disease of course we will there is a shit load of drugs and junk food that’s vegan!!

But.. A whole food plant based diet vs a clean meat eating diet…. The hormones, saturated fat and cholesterol found in animal products all of which contribute to the top 5 killers in the volume that the meat is currently eaten in, is not healthier than a whole food plant based diet.

We are all human, we will still become diseased, but we can also do all we can to reduce the risk.

I can agree, that a clean meat eating diet compared to your average American/UK (Junk, takeaways, processed meat etc…) is healthier of course…

And my argument isn’t health, I believe vegan diets are healthier and obviously more sustainable, but my argument will always sit with ethics.

[Eduke93]

What boggles my mind is people who say animals are not being tortured ?

I'd ask anyone to be put in a room the size of their dick and live there 24/7 and ask how they feel after just a day ?

I would suspect not very happy lol

Sent from my JSN-AL00 using Tapatalk

Yep, I've visited a slaughter house and factory farm here in UK (pig farm, saw them being gassed alive), the smell stayed with me for weeks. It is a torture chamber, people dont realise whats goes on behind closed doors, if they saw what goes on without turning a blind eye the world would be a different place!

FYI guys, this form of slaughter is considered "humane" in UK/US/AUS... Horrific.

Also pigs are more intelligent and affectionate than dogs... So imagine this happening to your friendly little dog!!

[Eduke93]

you ever seen a close up filming of an abortion ? theres about 50 million abortions around the world per year.. thats pretty F'd up too (worse then cutting an animals throat) . and heck at least with the animal we get to sustain life with it ,, when you rip a human baby into pieces just cause you 'chose' to , it doesn't really do much for sustaining of life (at least butchering a single cow will feed a family of 4 for weeks)

Sure, I can agree that’s fucked up. But again let’s compare numbers here 50 million vs 56 billion… We aren’t going to die out because of 50 million abortions. Sure you can sustain life with killing the animal, but again you don’t need to. Why not sustain life from plant based foods?

If the baby is fully grown and conscious then of course you should not rip it into pieces. But most abortions are done via a pill that forces the foetus to be expelled from the body before its conscious/alive. Not sure about the ripping apart bit?

[Couchlockd]

Sure, I can agree that’s fucked up. But again let’s compare numbers here 50 million vs 56 billion… We aren’t going to die out because of 50 million abortions. Sure you can sustain life with killing the animal, but again you don’t need to. Why not sustain life from plant based foods?

If the baby is fully grown and conscious then of course you should not rip it into pieces. But most abortions are done via a pill that forces the foetus to be expelled from the body before its conscious/alive. Not sure about the ripping apart bit?

Very few are actually aborted with a pill.

[GearHeaded]

I’d like to know your justification for your eating animal flesh?

I'd like to know your justification for killing a plant and eating it. it does not want to be killed, it has thorns and thistles and even uses chemical toxins it emits in an attempt to keep predators from killing and eating it. it wants to live just as much as a fish or chicken.

as for my justification to eat an animal. no matter what your view on religion is, there is no denying that the belief in a God and religion has directed humanity and its actions since the beginning of history.
my 'religion' and my 'god' gave me all the animals of the world as mine to do as a please, be a good steward over, yet also use for survival and food. not only were the animals given to me by the one that created them to be food for me, but also gave me them to use as a form of sacrifice and worship of the creator. killing an animal for worship service and sacrifice is wholly justifiable as well as is eating if for my and my families survival.
you can personally disagree with this.. but you'd be in disagreement with a majority of the human race and human history that has worshiped a 'God' and believed that animals were given to us by that God for both worship and for our own sustainment.
billions and billions of people, and civilization and societies of people were founded on this belief . thats my justification.. I don't think much of any civilizations or billions of peoples or world regions were founded on any type of vegan ideology.

even though you can find vegan ideologies in history.. they were always frowned upon and condemned . heck the first few chapters of the Bible feature a 'vegan' named 'Cain' (the son of Adam and Eve). he tried to offer up to God a vegan offering of fruits and vegetables, which God wholly rejected. God only accepted his brother Abels offering which was the sacrificing of an animal and the giving of its flesh. Cain , the first vegan, was recorded in history as the first murderer on earth (so the story goes) because God did not accept his vegetarian offering and so he got jealous of his brothers "meat" offering and so killed his brother.
the God of the Bible is not vegan. he is a meat eater and he expects his people to offer up 'meat' , not veggies

^ entire world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc.) and civilizations and societies have been built on this belief. we are talking a majority of mankind here (an 99% of western civilization)
the idea of using animal flesh is built in our very core of being human. from worshipping God, to sustaining our own bodies.
I really don't need to justify eating animal flesh when its inherently what humanity has done since day one and what humanity has been built upon.


note: I've got no intention of going all 'religious' in this debate. was just brining it up simply because mankind in general for the last several thousands of years has been 'religious' in nature and has directed our culture, society and things that we do. its foundational. so it would be silly to dismiss 'religious' ideas in a 'vegan debate' being 'religious' beliefs are what started the debate thousands of years ago

[GearHeaded]

I’d like to know your justification for your eating animal flesh?

also, asking me to justify why I eat animal meat would be akin to asking me why I breath air, seek shelter, and drink water. its built into my nature.

I live in a cold climate. if you told me to eat veggies and grains and live off the land, I would die. eating meat is my way of survival and has been for a million years of the people who live here.
perhaps there are some rare exceptions to this where people lived in tropical areas and could sustain themselves year round with fruits and veggies.
but most of all civilizations survived off meat.. and looking at your pic, you are fair skinned and probably descendant of northerners who lived in cold climates as well . if your ancestors were vegan and not meat eaters, you'd of never been born (your very existence is ONLY because an animal was killed to sustain the life of your ancestors... even if you never eat meat yourself ever, you can't escape this fact)

[Couchlockd]

Plants are more aware than people realize.

Very much aware.

A male cannabis plant let's pollen out to be trapped in female pistils attached to an ovary.

Once in the pistils, the male pollen shoots out a little tube and injects endosperm into the female ovary. The pistils then receded and it begins to grow a baby (seed). This is reproductive growth of this species of plant.

Just saying.

[GearHeaded]

Plants are more aware than people realize.

Very much aware.

A male cannabis plant let's pollen out to be trapped in female pistils attached to an ovary.

Once in the pistils, the male pollen shoots out a little tube and injects endosperm into the female ovary. The pistils then receded and it begins to grow a baby (seed). This is reproductive growth of this species of plant.

Just saying.

well if it can get 'busy' it is definitely alive.

so if you actually do the math . I only have to kill ONE life force , a large cow, to sustain my entire family for months.. where as a vegan has to commit genocide and kill off millions of life forces just to sustain himself for a week (think of all the individual grains he has to kill off to eat).

farm raised grains/veggies are not exactly treated vey well either. the conditions they are forced to grow in, the chemicals they constantly have to get sprayed with and subjected to, then the tortuous death of the blades chopping they and their families lives out of the soil

[fiddlesticks]

Plants are more aware than people realize.

Very much aware.

A male cannabis plant let's pollen out to be trapped in female pistils attached to an ovary.

Once in the pistils, the male pollen shoots out a little tube and injects endosperm into the female ovary. The pistils then receded and it begins to grow a baby (seed). This is reproductive growth of this species of plant.

Just saying.

This is what I've been saying .. Plants are sentient, feel pain and do not wish to be murdered.

[Couchlockd]

Now let's talk about how plants detroyed an entire European countries economy.

The Dutch tulip bubble,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

Pretty viscous little bastards.sneak in and secretly plot to detroy a country

[GearHeaded]

Now let's talk about how plants detroyed an entire European countries economy.

The Dutch tulip bubble,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

Pretty viscous little bastards.sneak in and secretly plot to detroy a country

so we probably shouldn't discriminate , and go ahead and kill and eat animals, fish, plants, etc.. equally and keep their populations in check .
kinda like we been doing since the dawn of time (a "meat'' and a potato with some veggies on the side.. pretty well established meal in 'most' cultures and societies since forever)

[Couchlockd]

so we probably shouldn't discriminate , and go ahead and kill and eat animals, fish, plants, etc.. equally and keep their populations in check .
kinda like we been doing since the dawn of time (a "meat'' and a potato with some veggies on the side.. pretty well established meal in 'most' cultures and societies since forever)

What is this meat and potatoes sorcery you speak of?

[kelkel]

[Eduke93]

I'd like to know your justification for killing a plant and eating it. it does not want to be killed, it has thorns and thistles and even uses chemical toxins it emits in an attempt to keep predators from killing and eating it. it wants to live just as much as a fish or chicken.

as for my justification to eat an animal. no matter what your view on religion is, there is no denying that the belief in a God and religion has directed humanity and its actions since the beginning of history.
my 'religion' and my 'god' gave me all the animals of the world as mine to do as a please, be a good steward over, yet also use for survival and food. not only were the animals given to me by the one that created them to be food for me, but also gave me them to use as a form of sacrifice and worship of the creator. killing an animal for worship service and sacrifice is wholly justifiable as well as is eating if for my and my families survival.
you can personally disagree with this.. but you'd be in disagreement with a majority of the human race and human history that has worshiped a 'God' and believed that animals were given to us by that God for both worship and for our own sustainment.
billions and billions of people, and civilization and societies of people were founded on this belief . thats my justification.. I don't think much of any civilizations or billions of peoples or world regions were founded on any type of vegan ideology.

even though you can find vegan ideologies in history.. they were always frowned upon and condemned . heck the first few chapters of the Bible feature a 'vegan' named 'Cain' (the son of Adam and Eve). he tried to offer up to God a vegan offering of fruits and vegetables, which God wholly rejected. God only accepted his brother Abels offering which was the sacrificing of an animal and the giving of its flesh. Cain , the first vegan, was recorded in history as the first murderer on earth (so the story goes) because God did not accept his vegetarian offering and so he got jealous of his brothers "meat" offering and so killed his brother.
the God of the Bible is not vegan. he is a meat eater and he expects his people to offer up 'meat' , not veggies

^ entire world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc.) and civilizations and societies have been built on this belief. we are talking a majority of mankind here (an 99% of western civilization)
the idea of using animal flesh is built in our very core of being human. from worshipping God, to sustaining our own bodies.
I really don't need to justify eating animal flesh when its inherently what humanity has done since day one and what humanity has been built upon.


note: I've got no intention of going all 'religious' in this debate. was just brining it up simply because mankind in general for the last several thousands of years has been 'religious' in nature and has directed our culture, society and things that we do. its foundational. so it would be silly to dismiss 'religious' ideas in a 'vegan debate' being 'religious' beliefs are what started the debate thousands of years ago

Come on, I thought you were better than going down the “plants have feelings thooooo” route…

Plants do not have nervous systems or anything structural that perceives pain. Additionally, more plants are cut down to feed farm animals than to feed humans, so by being a vegan, you are still killing fewer plants than as a meat eater.

My justification for eating plants is I need to eat them in order to survive, the negative impact from eating plants on the planet is MUCH less compared to eating meat and animals are sentient… Plants are not. And again as per above, even if plants did feel pain you are still killing fewer plants by going vegan…

Religion is not a justification.. When Jesus was alive there was not the abundance of foods that we have now and it is plausible that Jesus would have had to eat animals to survive. However, we have progressed so much as a society that there is no longer a necessity, so do you not think that in the eyes of an all loving God, he would prefer it if we didn’t kill his creatures if we don’t have to survive?

Part of my frustration with religion is that, unlike the consumption of animal products, it a personal choice and as such when people use a belief to condemn an animal to a life of suffering and pain it does not come close to making that action moral.

Using a religious belief to justify killing animals is exactly the same as using a religious belief to oppress homosexuals or women. In fact, if the logic “my religion says I can eat animals” makes eating animals moral, then by default the argument “my religion says it’s okay to treat homosexuals or women as less than me” must also make oppressing homosexuals and women moral….

Why would a God create such an intricate marine eco-system, where each species of fish is as important as any other, but then be happy to watch us destroy it right in front of him? In 50 years we have decimated shark, dolphin and whale populations and in the past 40 years we have wiped out 50% of all wildlife on this planet. Now one of the main issues with using religion as a justification for anything really, is that religious texts are often very ambiguous and of course open to interpretation, this is partly the reason why some Christians believe it is a sin to be gay, whereas others don’t. This same ambiguity can also be seen when turning to the Bible for moral guidance on whether or not we should eat animal products.

Again, Religion is not a justification.

I really don't need to justify eating animal flesh when its inherently what humanity has done since day one and what humanity has been built upon

Do you think it is wise to base our morality on the actions of our primitive ancestors? if it’s morally justifiable to eat animals because our ancestors used to do it, does that not mean that it must also be morally justifiable to murder each other, as our ancestors use to do that as well?

It is common knowledge and widely accepted that we evolved from primates who survived on a diet comprised predominantly of fruits, nuts, leaves and the occasional insects, but our diets have changed and evolved as the environments we’ve lived in have changed and evolved.

It is often cited that the reason we are so intelligent now is because we ate meat and many non-vegans claim that it helped us develop and evolve. Even if this is true, it has no relevance to our society today as our brains are not developing every time we eat a big mac, nor are we evolving as a species every time we enter Nando’s. Quite the opposite in fact…

[Eduke93]

also, asking me to justify why I eat animal meat would be akin to asking me why I breath air, seek shelter, and drink water. its built into my nature.

I live in a cold climate. if you told me to eat veggies and grains and live off the land, I would die. eating meat is my way of survival and has been for a million years of the people who live here.
perhaps there are some rare exceptions to this where people lived in tropical areas and could sustain themselves year round with fruits and veggies.
but most of all civilizations survived off meat.. and looking at your pic, you are fair skinned and probably descendant of northerners who lived in cold climates as well . if your ancestors were vegan and not meat eaters, you'd of never been born (your very existence is ONLY because an animal was killed to sustain the life of your ancestors... even if you never eat meat yourself ever, you can't escape this fact)

No it wouldn’t, you’re not a carnivore. If you were to go out, spot a cat do you feel the need to run it down, rip it apart and eat its flesh and drink its blood as a REAL carnivore would? It’s not built into your nature like the need to have water or breathe in air!

You live in a cold climate? You live in a house with central heating, Think you’ll survive mate… You keep comparing to cases where you’d need to consume meat for survival purposes, you are not in them situations. If you were to switch to a plant based diet today, you wouldn’t die…

All because our ancestors ate meat, and due to this we didn’t die out doesn’t make it justifiable to kill animals TODAY!! Yes, you could well be right but again, back then it was a necessity now it is not!!

[Eduke93]

P.S Wheres your veggies Kelkel?

[Eduke93]

Also, no hard feelings guys! It's a good topic to discuss especially when both sides are passionate.

[GearHeaded]

Do you think it is wise to base our morality on the actions of our primitive ancestors?

I don't really consider Moses, the prophets, Jesus and the apostles as "primitive ancestors". They were intelligent thinking men with better thinking skills then 99% of most of todays society.

maybe you don't think its wise. but , ummm their were entire civilizations and nations built on the morality of these "ancestors" (namely the nation I happen to reside in). I happen to be in agreement therein with the morality which the nation I was born in was founded upon.

you think I should base my morality on something else then this ? do you have 'new' morality being handed down to you form some higher powers?

just so you know I think doing so (ie, seeking new morals) is a little 'out there' and whacked.. my morality is founded on principles and traditions which have made this world go round.
I group "flat earthers" "reptile alien people" and "vegan morality" all in the same group of weird cultish outlandish and crazy ideas.
so I don't believe the earth is flat, that reptile alien people run the planet, or that animals aren't food.

call me closed minded I suppose. I believe in traditional values, traditional morals/ethics and traditional food


edit - I don't group "flat earthers" "reptile alien people" and "vegan as a food choice'' in the same group. theres a big difference between someone that choses to eat vegan just based on nutrition and food choices, then someone who is committed to a 'vegan idealogy' and 'vegan worldview' . its people that turn veganism into some type of religion that are on the same level as flat earthers and reptile alien people and other crazy cult weirdos

[GearHeaded]

I live in a cold climate. if you told me to eat veggies and grains and live off the land, I would die. eating meat is my way of survival and has been for a million years of the people who live here.

No it wouldn’t, you’re not a carnivore.

All because our ancestors ate meat, and due to this we didn’t die out doesn’t make it justifiable to kill animals TODAY!! Yes, you could well be right but again, back then it was a necessity now it is not!!

yes I would die if I chose to live off my land, but not eat meat.
yes I am a carnivore in the sense that my digestive system and my dogs digestive systems are nearly identical and we can both fully live and thrive off of eating only meat our entire lives. (people think that a humans digestive systems is most similar to a gorillas, but its not, our digestive systems are most similar to a dogs,, as carnivores thats why a man and a dog can live together and eat the same things and sustain life)

again, I said "IF" I chose to live off the land that I would die if I didn't eat meat.. and when I say my "ancestors" in regards to where I live, I'm not talking millions of years ago. I'm talking a mere century ago. heck even today, people who decide to live where I live and live off the grid will likely not make it if they do not have animals to tend and farm and live off of.
I live in the rocky mountains. I'm 30 mins away from the base of one of the tallest mountains in the continental USA. when relatives visit us and we go for a hike, they may very well end up in the hospital with altitude sickness.

If I have to eat the bears that get into my trash in order to survive, then I will. however, I'm likely not going to survive trying to plant some silly vegetables.
my point was that a vegan diet is only sustainable in some parts of the world if you chose to live off the grid.

you may live a cushy life with all the luxuries and pleasures of having tropical fruit delivered to your front door with the click of a button. and glorify in your vegan utopia. BUT, for most of mankind though most of the history of the world (and for plenty of people living today) , those luxurious you speak of are simply not attainable.

you'd turn from vegan to carnivore real quick if you spent a week out in the wilderness here with me for a week having to live off the land.
your vegan ideal only works so long as your technology works

[Chrisp83TRT]

That potatoes looks yummy lol no joke

Sent from my JSN-AL00 using Tapatalk

[GearHeaded]

not a lot of veggies here where I live, but plenty of meat
Attachment 175486

easy deer kill there off the back porch.. and yes you see those large squares, those are my garden beds where I planted my veggies. total pain in the ass compared to skinng that deer the veggies are not sustainable and don't feed the family. the dead deer is and does

[GearHeaded]

heres a challenge , to basically anybody no matter your vegan or meat eater..

try a 'eating off the land diet' . now I do NOT mean living off the land and picking your own berries and eating rabbits from your yard.
you can still go to the grocery store lol.

what you do is you can only buy food that is 100% in season and 100% grown/harvested/hunted/ or farmed locally. if you eat grains you can only eat grains grown there were you live, if you eat veggies or fruits you can only eat those fruits that are in season grown there where you live, if you eat meat you can only eat the meat that was raised and processed there where you live.

and don't cheat. you know damn well that Bannans don't grow naturally on the trees in your local neighborhood park!
you can only chose foods that are 'naturally occurring' in the environment and eco system in which you live.

for a majority of people, even doing this and being able to go to the grocery store, you will find that a vegan diet is not very sustainable, while the meat eating is very sustainable and doable.
let alone if you lived off the grid and actually had to be sustained by your own food .


my question to a vegan is, lets say your live in North Dakota. you have to sustain yourself and your family off the food that you locally harvest (which is able to grow there and live there year round). what exactly do you do ?
as a meat eater, well I know there are plenty of Pheasant, Buffalo etc. in North Dakota. but as a Vegan how do you sustain yourself . or can you even do it without high levels of technology and paying to get food products shipped to you from around the world ?

[GearHeaded]

side note - who the hell got me so side tracked that I'm posting about vegan stuff more then I am about STEROIDS and getting jacked !!!

[fiddlesticks]

Plants absolutely are sentient, Wtf? The cacti example once again... Capsaicin is literally made by plants to keep animals off of them dude. Whatever your views are, just understand things must suffer and die for other things to survive and thrive.

[Couchlockd]

Come on, I thought you were better than going down the “plants have feelings thooooo” route…

Plants do not have nervous systems or anything structural that perceives pain. Additionally, more plants are cut down to feed farm animals than to feed humans, so by being a vegan, you are still killing fewer plants than as a meat eater.

My justification for eating plants is I need to eat them in order to survive, the negative impact from eating plants on the planet is MUCH less compared to eating meat and animals are sentient… Plants are not. And again as per above, even if plants did feel pain you are still killing fewer plants by going vegan…

Religion is not a justification.. When Jesus was alive there was not the abundance of foods that we have now and it is plausible that Jesus would have had to eat animals to survive. However, we have progressed so much as a society that there is no longer a necessity, so do you not think that in the eyes of an all loving God, he would prefer it if we didn’t kill his creatures if we don’t have to survive?

Part of my frustration with religion is that, unlike the consumption of animal products, it a personal choice and as such when people use a belief to condemn an animal to a life of suffering and pain it does not come close to making that action moral.

Using a religious belief to justify killing animals is exactly the same as using a religious belief to oppress homosexuals or women. In fact, if the logic “my religion says I can eat animals” makes eating animals moral, then by default the argument “my religion says it’s okay to treat homosexuals or women as less than me” must also make oppressing homosexuals and women moral….

Why would a God create such an intricate marine eco-system, where each species of fish is as important as any other, but then be happy to watch us destroy it right in front of him? In 50 years we have decimated shark, dolphin and whale populations and in the past 40 years we have wiped out 50% of all wildlife on this planet. Now one of the main issues with using religion as a justification for anything really, is that religious texts are often very ambiguous and of course open to interpretation, this is partly the reason why some Christians believe it is a sin to be gay, whereas others don’t. This same ambiguity can also be seen when turning to the Bible for moral guidance on whether or not we should eat animal products.

Again, Religion is not a justification.



Do you think it is wise to base our morality on the actions of our primitive ancestors? if it’s morally justifiable to eat animals because our ancestors used to do it, does that not mean that it must also be morally justifiable to murder each other, as our ancestors use to do that as well?

It is common knowledge and widely accepted that we evolved from primates who survived on a diet comprised predominantly of fruits, nuts, leaves and the occasional insects, but our diets have changed and evolved as the environments we’ve lived in have changed and evolved.

It is often cited that the reason we are so intelligent now is because we ate meat and many non-vegans claim that it helped us develop and evolve. Even if this is true, it has no relevance to our society today as our brains are not developing every time we eat a big mac, nor are we evolving as a species every time we enter Nando’s. Quite the opposite in fact…

Actually plants to have a system that perceives "pain"

Plants have a mechanism that gets activated when a bug pieces a leaf or mainstem. It's like an immune system

Then you have the university study that took three identical growth Chambers, same RH%, temp, cow, grieing medium and fertilizer inputs. They placed a identical clone of tomato plant from same mother.

One chanber was control, one had a speaker playing Hitler speeches, and the other had the Beatles.

The Hitler plant was gangly, etoliated and in poor health and growing awat from speaker. The control was growing normally and the Beatles plant was bushier and had significantly more foliage than the control and was actually growing torwards the speaker

[GearHeaded]

Religion is not a justification.. When Jesus was alive there was not the abundance of foods that we have now and it is plausible that Jesus would have had to eat animals to survive. However, we have progressed so much as a society that there is no longer a necessity, so do you not think that in the eyes of an all loving God, he would prefer it if we didn’t kill his creatures if we don’t have to survive?

your missing a huge fundamental religious point here. God created animals with one of their very purposes of existing being just so that we humans could kill them (even for the purpose of not surviving, but merely for the pleasure of smearing the animals blood on the alter to worship god). when the carcass of the animal was burned and their flesh burned up and smoke raised up into the heavens, god breathed in the scent of the dead flesh and was satisfied.
thats what he made the animals for (not for pets and not for zoos)

as cruel as that may sound to you. thats the religious reality of nearly every major religion across the globe since the history of the world.

this may be odd to you (but your the odd one here because their is a church, a temple, a place of worship on every street corner right along side the steak house on every street corner as well. this is the inescapable world you happen to live in.

I get that you don't like that the sky happens to be blue and the world happens to be a globe, but thats the reality of your existence.
you can chose to not look at the blue sky just like you can chose not to eat normal food (ie, meat), but that doesn't change the reality in which you exist.

you live in a meat eaters world in which exists a God that created the world for meat eaters to exist and rule
for a vegan world to work and exist, it would have to done so under another 'god' and another universe and whole different plain of existence and dimension.

ok, this debate is getting deep

note: and your the one that brought up morality by asking me for moral justification for eating a can of tuna. now you can't go dismissing the idea of religion on me now in regards to the context of morality, that would be like dismissing gravity when discussing the idea of flying

[GearHeaded]

I would say 90% of hunters hunt for the thrill and enjoyment of killing the animal then they do soly hunting for meat/food.

you personally may not agree with this. but its human nature none the less. even apart from needing animals for food, we've killed them for pleasure, clothing, religious worship, brotherly bonding, etc..

I personally may not find pleasure in this either. but I'm surely not going dismiss the reality of this truth and that its the world we have always lived in.

heck one of the greatest wonders of the world was King Herods temple in Jerusalem . people used to travel to it from all corners of the earth just so they too could bring an animal to be killed there for religious worship.. thousands and thousands of animals were killed every single day hour after hour for decades on end. and it was considered a glorious place and wonder of the world (even though it was a slaughter house).
^ that humans would take pride in this place (from all cultures, races, and various religions) showed that mankind had a common bond with each other as 'meat eaters' and animal slayers.

you just can't stick your head in the sand and dismiss that this is mankind the reality and how we've always been and still are today.

have we evolved from this temple in Jerusalem / animal slaughter house ??? ummm , no probably not , in fact we probably kill way more animals now then we even did back then

[Obs]

Romans 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

I really dont think this can be made clearer.

I was raised strict southern baptist.
I. E. If you recieve joy from it it must be a sin.

My grandparents believed drinking alcohol was just the most terrible thing on earth a christian could do.

I showed them verse after verse justifying alcohol but they just were too indoctrinated to see.

Whole point is as christians we are not supposed to be dicks to vegans even though it is justified by God.

[Obs]

Btw this is Paul.

The only guy I would have gotten along with in the bible much. Hardass went through hell his entire life and said exactly what he thought without hesitation.

[Eduke93]

I don't really consider Moses, the prophets, Jesus and the apostles as "primitive ancestors". They were intelligent thinking men with better thinking skills then 99% of most of todays society.

maybe you don't think its wise. but , ummm their were entire civilizations and nations built on the morality of these "ancestors" (namely the nation I happen to reside in). I happen to be in agreement therein with the morality which the nation I was born in was founded upon.

you think I should base my morality on something else then this ? do you have 'new' morality being handed down to you form some higher powers?

just so you know I think doing so (ie, seeking new morals) is a little 'out there' and whacked.. my morality is founded on principles and traditions which have made this world go round.
I group "flat earthers" "reptile alien people" and "vegan morality" all in the same group of weird cultish outlandish and crazy ideas.
so I don't believe the earth is flat, that reptile alien people run the planet, or that animals aren't food.

call me closed minded I suppose. I believe in traditional values, traditional morals/ethics and traditional food


edit - I don't group "flat earthers" "reptile alien people" and "vegan as a food choice'' in the same group. theres a big difference between someone that choses to eat vegan just based on nutrition and food choices, then someone who is committed to a 'vegan idealogy' and 'vegan worldview' . its people that turn veganism into some type of religion that are on the same level as flat earthers and reptile alien people and other crazy cult weirdos

I wasn’t calling these people our primitive ancestors, we are talking about human evolution here, gorillas, chimpanzees, gibbons etc…That’s where science points its finger, not the bible.

I’d agree these guys from the story, or the person who wrote the story certainly had better thinking skills than today’s society, again we can go back to the negative impact we are having on the planet, killing “gods” greatest creation!!

We don’t need “higher powers” to show us that something we are doing Is wrong, we can see what we are doing is wrong. God gave us eyes to do so… So you believe animals are food, which means you believe cats, dogs, lions, monkeys, dolphins, elephants etc.. they are all food?

Vegans are cultish, we want to turn it into a religion, we are weird? Lol, come on.… Yet a majority of western society believe in a book?

Vegans are passionate. We feel it is truly a moral and ethical imperative that animals come to no harm through wilful or negligent actions on the part of humans. When another person challenges something that we believe to be a moral imperative, we stand up and say that it's wrong. Remember, it's the behaviour we detest, not the person. People love their pet dogs and would never allow harm to come to them, but you’ll eat flesh that has been cut from an animal that is smarter and more sensitive than your dog? I get angry about the hypocrisy… Can’t you see how hypocritical that is?

Vegans see eating meat as selfish and immoral behaviour. How can we NOT say anything? It's our absolute obligation to speak out on behalf of the animals. To us, this is the same as if we saw a dog being abused by children on the sidewalk. We will not simply walk by as if it's no concern of ours and we expect that other civilized people would intervene against such obvious cruelty as well.

You believe in tradition, do you believe only in the tradition of eating meat or do you believe in various traditions, or do you pick and choose?
Let’s just consider that slavery was once considered a tradition, as was treating a woman as less than a man - but does the fact that these things were once traditional justify them? I think (and hope) most of us would say no. If humanity had gone through history too stubborn and ignorant to change because of so called tradition then we would never have evolved or adapted.

What about female genital mutilation? It’s been performed on women for centuries, it’s deep rooted in tradition and yet it is abhorrent. However, using the justification that eating animals is acceptable because it is traditional then means that performing female genital mutilation is therefore acceptable as well. You see, the logic here is extremely flawed as both acts are absolutely horrific and the excuse of tradition serves in no way as any kind of justification for them.

[Obs]

This isn't scripture.
Just a reminder to everyone....

You will all die the same terrible death of every plant and animal.

But it will be much much much worse, because you are all capable of true empathy that comes with a life lived as the highest lifeform that is perishable. To project that empathy onto animals is a good trait and honorable but how exactly do you think these animals die in nature?

They are starved to death over weeks or eaten asshole first by predators in most cases.

[Obs]

I wasn’t calling these people our primitive ancestors, we are talking about human evolution here, gorillas, chimpanzees, gibbons etc…That’s where science points its finger, not the bible.

I’d agree these guys from the story, or the person who wrote the story certainly had better thinking skills than today’s society, again we can go back to the negative impact we are having on the planet, killing “gods” greatest creation!!

We don’t need “higher powers” to show us that something we are doing Is wrong, we can see what we are doing is wrong. God gave us eyes to do so… So you believe animals are food, which means you believe cats, dogs, lions, monkeys, dolphins, elephants etc.. they are all food?

Vegans are cultish, we want to turn it into a religion, we are weird? Lol, come on.… Yet a majority of western society believe in a book?

Vegans are passionate. We feel it is truly a moral and ethical imperative that animals come to no harm through wilful or negligent actions on the part of humans. When another person challenges something that we believe to be a moral imperative, we stand up and say that it's wrong. Remember, it's the behaviour we detest, not the person. People love their pet dogs and would never allow harm to come to them, but you’ll eat flesh that has been cut from an animal that is smarter and more sensitive than your dog? I get angry about the hypocrisy… Can’t you see how hypocritical that is?

Vegans see eating meat as selfish and immoral behaviour. How can we NOT say anything? It's our absolute obligation to speak out on behalf of the animals. To us, this is the same as if we saw a dog being abused by children on the sidewalk. We will not simply walk by as if it's no concern of ours and we expect that other civilized people would intervene against such obvious cruelty as well.

You believe in tradition, do you believe only in the tradition of eating meat or do you believe in various traditions, or do you pick and choose?
Let’s just consider that slavery was once considered a tradition, as was treating a woman as less than a man - but does the fact that these things were once traditional justify them? I think (and hope) most of us would say no. If humanity had gone through history too stubborn and ignorant to change because of so called tradition then we would never have evolved or adapted.

What about female genital mutilation? It’s been performed on women for centuries, it’s deep rooted in tradition and yet it is abhorrent. However, using the justification that eating animals is acceptable because it is traditional then means that performing female genital mutilation is therefore acceptable as well. You see, the logic here is extremely flawed as both acts are absolutely horrific and the excuse of tradition serves in no way as any kind of justification for them.

Btw traditions and the variances of such in the bible were described and explained well in the verses I posted. Christians are not to judge those who think eating meat is wrong or to cast them out.

Btw... What about male genital mutilation?
Circucision is what started pauls discussion on veganism in the bible.

We are not to cast people out for their traditions...
Understand why now?

[fiddlesticks]

This isn't scripture.
Just a reminder to everyone....

You will all die the same terrible death of every plant and animal.

But it will be much much much worse, because you are all capable of true empathy that comes with a life lived as the highest lifeform that is perishable. To project that empathy onto animals is a good trait and honorable but how exactly do you think these animals die in nature?

They are starved to death over weeks or eaten asshole first by predators in most cases.

This is true and i hate it. I wonder how necessary all the suffering is and if it can even be prevented at all or if its literally required to suffer to keep the universe in equilibrium.

BTW with the circumcision shit, if you want to regrow your foreskin just stretch the remaining skin you have, inject some insulin into the nearby area and voila, new skin. I've done this and it's honestly extremely easy. Fuck circumcision.

[Obs]

This is true and i hate it. I wonder how necessary all the suffering is and if it can even be prevented at all or if its literally required to suffer to keep the universe in equilibrium.

It is a requirement in my opinion.
Life is a test. We all die the same death in the end.
To be compassionate is the highest virtue (charity/love).

The bible also clearly states that a person that is cruel to animals is wicked.

Btw dont take me as an exemplary christian.
I have serious beef with God at times.
No one is perfect. Those who think they are righteous are usually divine cocksuckers.

[fiddlesticks]

It is a requirement in my opinion.
Life is a test. We all die the same death in the end.
To be compassionate is the highest virtue (charity/love).

The bible also clearly states that a person that is cruel to animals is wicked.

Btw dont take me as an exemplary christian.
I have serious beef with God at times.
No one is perfect. Those who think they are righteous are usually divine cocksuckers.

Ehhh we'll see how "mandatory pain literally regulated by the universe" handles a bunch of speed! I refuse to suffer! In all actuality when you analyze it this existence is fucking stupid lol. Humans should never have been a thing.

[Eduke93]

yes I would die if I chose to live off my land, but not eat meat.
yes I am a carnivore in the sense that my digestive system and my dogs digestive systems are nearly identical and we can both fully live and thrive off of eating only meat our entire lives. (people think that a humans digestive systems is most similar to a gorillas, but its not, our digestive systems are most similar to a dogs,, as carnivores thats why a man and a dog can live together and eat the same things and sustain life)

again, I said "IF" I chose to live off the land that I would die if I didn't eat meat.. and when I say my "ancestors" in regards to where I live, I'm not talking millions of years ago. I'm talking a mere century ago. heck even today, people who decide to live where I live and live off the grid will likely not make it if they do not have animals to tend and farm and live off of.
I live in the rocky mountains. I'm 30 mins away from the base of one of the tallest mountains in the continental USA. when relatives visit us and we go for a hike, they may very well end up in the hospital with altitude sickness.

If I have to eat the bears that get into my trash in order to survive, then I will. however, I'm likely not going to survive trying to plant some silly vegetables.
my point was that a vegan diet is only sustainable in some parts of the world if you chose to live off the grid.

you may live a cushy life with all the luxuries and pleasures of having tropical fruit delivered to your front door with the click of a button. and glorify in your vegan utopia. BUT, for most of mankind though most of the history of the world (and for plenty of people living today) , those luxurious you speak of are simply not attainable.

you'd turn from vegan to carnivore real quick if you spent a week out in the wilderness here with me for a week having to live off the land.
your vegan ideal only works so long as your technology works

You’re not a carnivore, we adapted to eat meat because we needed to! Look at our teeth… Our teeth prove that we are opportunistic omnivores. Nothing more. In fact, there are many features of our bodies that show we evolved to eat far less meat than most other omnivores. This is in line with our nearest neighbour, the chimpanzee, which will only eat meat occasionally. .

We have evolved as an omnivorous species to eat all sorts of things to maximize our survival. This is in line with many other traits we evolved which helped us maximize reproduction within a dangerous and often changing environment. However, we never had any biological requirement to include meat as part of our diet, and certainly less so in contemporary times with modern knowledge about nutrition.

Yes, so your hypothetically speaking about living off the land…

Obviously, if someone was stranded on a desert island/had to live off the land, vegan or not, they would seek to find fruits and vegetables first and if there were animals roaming around that we could kill, there would also presumably be vegetation that we could eat as well.

Let’s be honest, if anyone did just randomly get stranded their chance of survival would be incredibly low. Even if there was an animal there, most of us wouldn’t know how to kill them, butcher them and cook them (yes a few of you may know how to, but the percentage is low).

On a serious note, nobody can really judge what they’d do in a survival situation and there have been documented cases where humans have eaten each other in order to survive. The most important thing here however, is that just because humans have killed and eaten other humans for survival, doesn’t mean it is moral for us to kill and eat each other in a normal environment.

This is really the main point of the rebuttal, because even if someone was forced to kill and eat an animal in a life or death situation, this provides no moral justification for eating animal products in everyday life.

The reality is, we are not stuck on a desert island or living off the land and therefore we do not need to kill and eat an animal out of necessity. We do however, live in a society where we are surrounded by an abundance of vegan foods, so morally this argument proves nothing.

[Obs]

Ehhh we'll see how "mandatory pain literally regulated by the universe" handles a bunch of speed! I refuse to suffer! In all actuality when you analyze it this existence is fucking stupid lol. Humans should never have been a thing.

I disagree.
I held my little girls hand when she was a tiny baby that could barely reach around my thumb. She taught me what love is.

Any suffering is worth the cost of what I have experienced.

That is why the light always wins. The scale is not even.


1 Corinthians 10:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

[Eduke93]

my question to a vegan is, lets say your live in North Dakota. you have to sustain yourself and your family off the food that you locally harvest (which is able to grow there and live there year round). what exactly do you do ?
as a meat eater, well I know there are plenty of Pheasant, Buffalo etc. in North Dakota. but as a Vegan how do you sustain yourself . or can you even do it without high levels of technology and paying to get food products shipped to you from around the world ?

Never been to north Dakota…. But a quick google search and I’ve found several restaurants that serve vegan food… Which would indicate to me they can buy canned beans, rice and veggies from their local shops/markets.

https://www.happycow.net/north_ameri.../north_dakota/