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Thread: Ideal caloric surplus for adding lean mass

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    JohnnyV85's Avatar
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    Ideal caloric surplus for adding lean mass

    So I went and took an RMR test today to start tweaking my meal prep in preparation for my next cycle. Turns out my resting metabolic rate is somewhere between 2600 and 2700 calories per day. Probably mostly due to the fact that my job requires me to sit at a desk for 10-12 hours a day sometimes.

    My question is, is there an ideal amount of calories to eat over maintenance in order to grow? Most common I see is 500. So should I prep for 3200 cal a day or would an even 3000 be just as good?

    My other question is what would be the ideal ratios of p/c/f?

    Thanks in advance!
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    heres a very 'bro science' way to think about it , but it works..

    don't eat above maintenance for what you currently are. eat for what you want to be. if your 180 pounds and you want to be 200 pounds, then right now eat above maintenance for the 200 you want to be (not the 180 you are)...

    so go ahead and do the exact same TDEE calculations, and instead of entering your current weight, add the weight thats your goal that you want to be in 12-16 weeks. and base your diet off of that , and then grow into it


    sure thats a super simple and super 'bro' approach , but it works


    as for ratios for protein fats and carbs when tying to add on size .. there is no universal answer to this. too many variables to even give a ball park number.
    some basics
    - when cutting protein usually goes up big time and fats and carbs come down
    - when bulking protein stays steady, or may even come down slightly, but carbs go up big time and fats increase slightly
    - if someone is struggling to get the calories in then protein may go down even more , and fats will be added in to make up more calorie density

    a basic staring point diet for a 200 pound guy that wants to bulk is generally starting at 300g protein, 400g carbs, 60g fats (direct source only).. but thats very basic , so many other variables come into play here especially with AAS usage and the type of training being done

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    HoldMyBeer is online now Productive Member
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    A common suggestion I hear is to aim for adding 0.25% to 0.5% body weight per week.
    Lately I hear a lot of coaches bitching about calorie surplus, deficits, etc because they say it's not a math problem and you can just type your stats into a calculator online and get your TDEE. You have to set up a diet and weigh yourself regularly and add / subtract from that. I see why they say that, but those calculators give you a starting point.
    So start with what you're eating now, weigh yourself every day for 2 weeks, take the average for those each week, and add or subtract calories from there. There is roughly 3500 calories per lb
    For p/c/f split, I like 35/35/30. Most people say high carb, low fat. I, and a growing amount of others, like moderate carbs, moderate fat.

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    There is no ideal macro split - if it were the case everyone would be eating the exact same foods, at the same time of day, in the same quantities. This is obviously not the case.

    You need to lock in your nutrition well before cycling or your going to be wasting your time and money spinning your tires.

    Not trying to be mean just brutally honest - not ready to cycle from the questions you've been asking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV85 View Post
    So I went and took an RMR test today to start tweaking my meal prep in preparation for my next cycle. Turns out my resting metabolic rate is somewhere between 2600 and 2700 calories per day. Probably mostly due to the fact that my job requires me to sit at a desk for 10-12 hours a day sometimes.

    My question is, is there an ideal amount of calories to eat over maintenance in order to grow? Most common I see is 500. So should I prep for 3200 cal a day or would an even 3000 be just as good?

    My other question is what would be the ideal ratios of p/c/f?

    Thanks in advance!
    Not that I believe a rmr test will be totally accurate for everyone letís just pretend it is in your example. The rmr does not take into account your work load on lifting days (or cardio, or maybe that you walked to work that day...) that plays a role also. This is something you have to figure out over the course of week or weeks. Once you nail that down then you can throw something Luke 300-500 excess calories into the mix and the scale should move in the desired direction. If the mirror says your getting too soft you can either lower calories down, try manipulating macros, add more cardio.

    Macro split wise as others have noted it can be pretty different person to person so thatís something you will need to fine tune yourself. Itís a long tedios process I myself have been struggling with for years.

    Good luck


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    advice

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV85 View Post
    So I went and took an RMR test today to start tweaking my meal prep in preparation for my next cycle. Turns out my resting metabolic rate is somewhere between 2600 and 2700 calories per day. Probably mostly due to the fact that my job requires me to sit at a desk for 10-12 hours a day sometimes.

    My question is, is there an ideal amount of calories to eat over maintenance in order to grow? Most common I see is 500. So should I prep for 3200 cal a day or would an even 3000 be just as good?
    Eat 500 kcal above your TDEE if you want to increase your body weight.
    My other question is what would be the ideal ratios of p/c/f?

    Thanks in advance!

    Well bro. Let me tell you something; You should only eat excess calories on the busiest day, the day of training. On your day off, you can eat on your TDEE, or up to 10% below it. On your total rest day - without training, your body will need less energy to function.You can split your macronutrients as follows - 40% Protein and Carbohydrate, and 20% Fat. If you want to lower your fat a little you can play with these percentages, leaving your carbohydrate intake at 45%, protein at 40%, and fat at 15% ...Eat 500 kcal above your TDEE if you want to increase your weight.hug!!
    Last edited by anabolictheviking; 10-14-2019 at 06:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolictheviking View Post
    Well bro. Let me tell you something; You should only eat excess calories on the busiest day, the day of training. On your day off, you can eat on your TDEE, or up to 10% below it. On your total rest day - without training, your body will need less energy to function.You can split your macronutrients as follows - 40% Protein and Carbohydrate, and 20% Fat. If you want to lower your fat a little you can play with these percentages, leaving your carbohydrate intake at 45%, protein at 40%, and fat at 15% ...Eat 500 kcal above your TDEE if you want to increase your weight.hug!!
    This is entirely metabolism and person dependant.
    Some can use a couple of rest days slamming surplus and repair what was otherwise a loss.

    For instance my optimal diet is 4000+ to maintain then a couple of rest days I can eat twice that and grow.

    Diets are impossible to prescribe with knowing very detailed information on the individual.
    This is why so many fail with one size fits all parameters.

    But... Regardless of who you are, muscle is not repaired in a 24 hour period. Rest and surplus can be great for mass or in my case the best for mass

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    for guys with super fast metabolisms and are trying to put on size and who struggle to eat enough ,, lowering calories on rest days is a bad idea.

    lets say this guys maintenance cals based on TDEE are 3000. his surplus goal is 700 cals ... he's trying to bulk but struggles to hit his surplus of 3700 cals a day . some days he hits 3200, some days 3500, etc..
    well when this guy takes a rest day his TDEE may go down to 2600 cals. this is a great opportunity for him to catch up. cause if he only hits 3400 cals that day, he is still at an 800 cal surplus for that day and has more then met his goal

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    Ive been fine tuning my meals since the original post a few weeks ago, mainly the carbs pre and post workout. Havent even added the eq or npp into the mix yet because im still waiting on it, just upped my test to 100mg e2d... so far so good. my macros are currently at 243p/519c/27f

    Will probably drop the protein down to 220 once I get the eq and npp going and up the carbs to compensate for the lost calories from protein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV85 View Post
    Ive been fine tuning my meals since the original post a few weeks ago, mainly the carbs pre and post workout. Havent even added the eq or npp into the mix yet because im still waiting on it, just upped my test to 100mg e2d... so far so good. my macros are currently at 243p/519c/27f

    Will probably drop the protein down to 220 once I get the eq and npp going and up the carbs to compensate for the lost calories from protein.
    That macro split makes no sense. That little amount of fat intake is going to prevent your body from functioning properly.

    Fats are needed for cholesterol, digestion, hormones, among many other things.

    If you had that little fat at the end of the first cycle that explains why you couldn't even complete PCT because your body is deprived of essential nutrients.

    Food is more anabolic that your cycle when it's utilized properly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV85 View Post
    Ive been fine tuning my meals since the original post a few weeks ago, mainly the carbs pre and post workout. Havent even added the eq or npp into the mix yet because im still waiting on it, just upped my test to 100mg e2d... so far so good. my macros are currently at 243p/519c/27f

    Will probably drop the protein down to 220 once I get the eq and npp going and up the carbs to compensate for the lost calories from protein.
    the protein to fat calculations seem a little off to me (at least on the surface) .. if every one of your 243 grams of protein from even the leanest protein sources, like chicken breast ,, that by itself would put your fat at over 30g . let alone any other trace fats you may be getting from other sources and carb sources.

    BUT . this depends heavily on how you personally are counting your macros . I only count direct sources of macros, not indirect. so 25g of fat can definitely be a thing for me (I'm only counting added fats , like avocado , oils, etc.. but not the fats found in the meats themselves)..
    but if your actually calculating all fats your consuming in total (not just direct sources) , getting down to 27g while eating that many carbs and protein would be very difficult . unless your eating egg whites and rice cakes for every meal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    This is entirely metabolism and person dependant.
    Some can use a couple of rest days slamming surplus and repair what was otherwise a loss.

    For instance my optimal diet is 4000+ to maintain then a couple of rest days I can eat twice that and grow.

    Diets are impossible to prescribe with knowing very detailed information on the individual.
    This is why so many fail with one size fits all parameters.

    But... Regardless of who you are, muscle is not repaired in a 24 hour period. Rest and surplus can be great for mass or in my case the best for mass
    Then there’s guys with fucked up jobs where my TDEE is totally fucking different 3 days a week. There are days I easily burn 6000 calories at work, and Tren is the only thing keeping muscle on by body. There are other days all I do is haul equipment around, and generally not burn anything. Good luck calculating that shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Then there’s guys with fucked up jobs where my TDEE is totally fucking different 3 days a week. There are days I easily burn 6000 calories at work, and Tren is the only thing keeping muscle on by body. There are other days all I do is haul equipment around, and generally not burn anything. Good luck calculating that shit.
    I would just pick a number and run with it.
    I cant keep up with my job. I just eat all I can. Luckily I metabolize carbs and fat like nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Windex View Post
    If you had that little fat at the end of the first cycle that explains why you couldn't even complete PCT because your body is deprived of essential nutrients.
    No 1st cycle was different, I was sharing a kitchen and it was almost impossible to meal prep. My diet was leaning toward the sloppy side. Less control over what I was able to consume

    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    the protein to fat calculations seem a little off to me (at least on the surface) .. if every one of your 243 grams of protein from even the leanest protein sources, like chicken breast ,, that by itself would put your fat at over 30g . let alone any other trace fats you may be getting from other sources and carb sources.

    BUT . this depends heavily on how you personally are counting your macros . I only count direct sources of macros, not indirect. so 25g of fat can definitely be a thing for me (I'm only counting added fats , like avocado , oils, etc.. but not the fats found in the meats themselves)..
    but if your actually calculating all fats your consuming in total (not just direct sources) , getting down to 27g while eating that many carbs and protein would be very difficult . unless your eating egg whites and rice cakes for every meal
    I do oatmeal, protein powder and almond milk for breakfast, 12g fat
    meal 1 and 2 are exactly the same, 4oz chicken breast/10 oz brown rice.... 4g fat according to nutritionix.com (I usually google "chicken breast macros" or "brown rice macros" and get my information from there. I realize theres conflicting info so if you guys have a suggestion where to get the most accurate numbers Id appreciate it)
    preworkout meal i have 3 bagels and 8oz 0% fat yogurt 3g fat
    post workout 1 bagel, 20oz gatorade and protein powder 4g fat

    yes its the same stuff every day and my gf gives me hell for my pre/post meals lol, but its just easy and the numbers are there. By all means Im open to any feedback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV85 View Post
    No 1st cycle was different, I was sharing a kitchen and it was almost impossible to meal prep. My diet was leaning toward the sloppy side. Less control over what I was able to consume



    I do oatmeal, protein powder and almond milk for breakfast, 12g fat
    meal 1 and 2 are exactly the same, 4oz chicken breast/10 oz brown rice.... 4g fat according to nutritionix.com (I usually google "chicken breast macros" or "brown rice macros" and get my information from there. I realize theres conflicting info so if you guys have a suggestion where to get the most accurate numbers Id appreciate it)
    preworkout meal i have 3 bagels and 8oz 0% fat yogurt 3g fat
    post workout 1 bagel, 20oz gatorade and protein powder 4g fat

    yes its the same stuff every day and my gf gives me hell for my pre/post meals lol, but its just easy and the numbers are there. By all means Im open to any feedback.
    Sharing a kitchen isn't an excuse and that diet is awful. It has no essential healthy fats or healthy saturated fats.

    There are members of the board that have one wife, two jobs, three kids, and four dogs yet still have time to eat properly.

    Use the back of the label and NutritonData website.

    If you don't learn to feed yourself properly then yoh may as well put your wallet on fire it's going to give the same results as using gear.
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    Fats : Nuts, Nut Butter, Fish, Avacado, Olive Oil
    Saturated Fat: Steak, Chicken Thigh, Eggs
    Missing tons of micronutrients : Potassium (Potato's, Coconut Water, Spinach, OJ, etc).
    No Magnesium, selenium, zinc, or folate in diet (vegetables).

    Missing most vitamins (fruits)

    Unlikely enough calories (low volume of food)

    Low calcium (Greek Yogurt, Almond Milk, Goat Milk, etc).

    No mention of supplements -> DHEA, Vitamin D3, Vitamin K2, Creatine, etc

    Lacking intraworkout nutrition (Re: John meadows)

    Gatorade useless outside of insulin .

    More than half the diet is processed foods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windex View Post
    Fats : Nuts, Nut Butter, Fish, Avacado, Olive Oil
    Saturated Fat: Steak, Chicken Thigh, Eggs
    Missing tons of micronutrients : Potassium (Potato's, Coconut Water, Spinach, OJ, etc).
    No Magnesium, selenium, zinc, or folate in diet (vegetables).

    Missing most vitamins (fruits)

    Unlikely enough calories (low volume of food)

    Low calcium (Greek Yogurt, Almond Milk, Goat Milk, etc).

    No mention of supplements -> DHEA, Vitamin D3, Vitamin K2, Creatine, etc

    Lacking intraworkout nutrition (Re: John meadows)

    Gatorade useless outside of insulin .

    More than half the diet is processed foods.
    You read my mind. Thanks man I appreciate the feedback
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    GearHeaded

    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    the protein to fat calculations seem a little off to me (at least on the surface) .. if every one of your 243 grams of protein from even the leanest protein sources, like chicken breast ,, that by itself would put your fat at over 30g . let alone any other trace fats you may be getting from other sources and carb sources.

    BUT . this depends heavily on how you personally are counting your macros . I only count direct sources of macros, not indirect. so 25g of fat can definitely be a thing for me (I'm only counting added fats , like avocado , oils, etc.. but not the fats found in the meats themselves)..
    but if your actually calculating all fats your consuming in total (not just direct sources) , getting down to 27g while eating that many carbs and protein would be very difficult . unless your eating egg whites and rice cakes for every meal
    Do you only account for dietary fats from external sources such as cashews, almond nuts, flax seeds, canola oils, olive oil, avocado?

    One question: Not counting fats from animal sources (beef, poultry, pork, etc.) would you not put one's diet on too much fat and calories?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davimeireles View Post
    Do you only account for dietary fats from external sources such as cashews, almond nuts, flax seeds, canola oils, olive oil, avocado?

    One question: Not counting fats from animal sources (beef, poultry, pork, etc.) would you not put one's diet on too much fat and calories?
    well for contest prep clients, we are weighing food and counting every single macro from every source..

    but for the general population I find it much more sustainable to only count direct sources of macros. especially for meal planning. now in the overall diet plan I am however accounting for indirect sources, but only in the background. I know if the client is having 6 meat meals per day at 7oz each he is getting likely 50g of fats just from that. but I don't want the client to have to worry about those small details. if I put his fats for the day at say 30g, thats going to be from direct sources only. thats all he has to worry about.

    so if I say meal 2 needs to be ,, 50g protein, 50g carbs, 15g fats . thats simply 7oz of chicken , 1 cup of rice, and 1/2 an avocado. he does't have to worry about weighing out his avocado just to account for the fat in the chicken (I've already accounted for animal source in the back ground foundation when designing the actual diet itself) .

    the easier you make it on the client to follow, the more he is able to sustain it and stick to the plan and thus the more long term results he will get.. thats why I only use direct source macro calculations in most my diet plans

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    My answer to Obs

    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    This is entirely metabolism and person dependant.
    Some can use a couple of rest days slamming surplus and repair what was otherwise a loss.

    For instance my optimal diet is 4000+ to maintain then a couple of rest days I can eat twice that and grow.

    Diets are impossible to prescribe with knowing very detailed information on the individual.
    This is why so many fail with one size fits all parameters.

    But... Regardless of who you are, muscle is not repaired in a 24 hour period. Rest and surplus can be great for mass or in my case the best for mass
    Well, the muscle takes 48 hours to fully recover - we are tired of knowing that !!!! But no one will lose muscle when eating at TDEE on the day off !! ... Don't think the guy will be calorie deficient on the day off; because it's not caloric deficit. He will only be adjusting the calories that day according to the level of physical activity.And with proper protein and carbohydrate delivery on the day off, maintenance calories generates muscle anabolism.
    Last edited by anabolictheviking; 10-16-2019 at 04:15 PM.

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