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Thread: keto muscle loss?

  1. #1
    morton30 is offline Junior Member
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    keto muscle loss?

    I have just finished a bulk and now im trying to cut but i cant seem to do it with carbs. before i went from 220lbs really fat to 154 skinny fat so i know keto works for me but when i mentioned it on here i was told i would loose muscle is this true Seth Feroce is now on keto so surely it cant be that bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeGUDJOWzPg

  2. #2
    Nephets's Avatar
    Nephets is online now Senior Member
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    I don't see how you would lose muscle just because your doing keto. Keep the weight training intense and don't go into a massive calorie deficit and you should be fine. I would assume some people who go keto are also in a massive calorie deficit as well, maybe without realizing it.

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    GearHeaded is online now Anabolic Member
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    if your in a calorie deficit, wither your doing a keto diet, a high carb diet, a low fat diet, etc.. it doesn't matter, you always have a chance of losing some muscle simply because your in a deficit and thus not providing your body all the raw material and nutrition it needs (so its going to lead towards being in a catabolic state .. but heck you can't burn fat either unless you lean towards this state)

    you'll definitely want a properly set up AAS protocol when cutting to help preserve as much muscle as possible

    with keto, compared to cutting with a carb based diet, you will definitely notice a faster drop in weight and a loss in muscle fullness. this is not a lost of actual muscle tissue. its a loss of glycogen stores within your muscle cells. when glycogen gets stored in muscle cells it brings with it like 10x its weight in water. this help give the muscle its size and fullness. when you lose glycogen stores and don't replenish it the water comes out of your muscle and you look flat and smaller and less muscular . but again, its just water, its not a loss of actual muscle tissue.
    your also going to be way weaker in the gym (though you'll likely be much more efficient at cardio)

    I'm doing Keto right now and I plan on doing a once per week Carb re-feed day post workout with 15iu of insulin . reason for this is I want to keep glycogen in my muscle. I don't want to get depleted and just stay depleted. I want the glycogen, the strength and the muscle fullness that comes with carbs. but I also don't want to knock myself out of Ketosis. so its going to be about timing the carb re-feed , using the insulin when glut 4 levels are high, and using the right amount of carbs needed just for glycogen .
    I'm not cutting though. if your cutting you may end up losing weight and body fat faster without doing a re-feed day.

    one more note - when you are in Ketosis, and your body has plenty of Ketones , the ketones are themselves muscle sparing. your body will use ketones for fuel cause they are available, rather then go through the tedious process of breaking down muscle tissue into amino acids and then coverting them into glucose .
    so keto is muscle sparing to some degree

  4. #4
    morton30 is offline Junior Member
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    Well that good news then because i know i can do keto easy but before i was just eating bacon and chicken thighs. would i be micro nutrient deficient doing it this way for muscle sparing/building? when i lost the 60lbs most days i just used to cook up a frozen 1kg bag of chicken thighs and have one or two thighs every few hrs and i got on so well with that im on 500mg test i have 6 weeks left on the cycle before i drop it down to 200mg trt
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    GearHeaded's Avatar
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    micro nutrition is extremely important in both building muscle and maintaining it . if you not just trying to get shredded at any cost, then I would set you keto diet up with a micro nutrition focus. so forget the damn 'keto bacon'

    you'll get the most micro nutrition from red meat .. steak, ground beef, buffalo, lamb, venison. get the fattiest cuts (hard to do with venison). also EGGs. lots of whole eggs. and throw in some Salmon once in awhile too.
    thats your base.. chicken thighs or a whole chicken once in awhile is fine. some pork once in awhile is fine too.

    next is dairy. can be a very useful tool while on keto . things like cheese, whole milk, cottage cheese have their place for sure and have their own micro nutrition aspects . this way a meal can also be a palet of more then just meat . also BUTTER. add that shit to everything (lots of nutrition in butter).
    example, have an 8oz steak cooked in butter, some cooked broccoli with butter, and instead of a potato, you have a bowl of cottage cheese for a pallet change.

    next is veggies . more micro nutrition here (but don't over do them, they can also contain anti nutrients). some are also higher in carbs then others. example a carrot is a bit higher in carbs compared to spinach (but still one large carrot is still probably only 6 carbs).
    mix it up and get a diversity . spinach, arugula, broccoli, carrots, bell peppers, asparagus, etc..
    your better off lightly cooking or steaming them then eating them raw (you cook some of the natural toxins out of the veggies and bring out more micro nutrients this way).

    lastly , organ meat can have benefit. like beef liver . as well as adding in extra fats like olive oil , add olives to your veggies, add avacodo, etc.. then for a snack, a handful of nuts.

    you can get a wide variety of micro nutrients doing keto

    every once in awhile, maybe twice per week . throw in a very small amount of fruit. like a a melon or some berries. things that are low glucose fruit and do NOT eat too much
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 11-07-2019 at 04:22 PM.

  6. #6
    morton30 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    micro nutrition is extremely important in both building muscle and maintaining it . if you not just trying to get shredded at any cost, then I would set you keto diet up with a micro nutrition focus. so forget the damn 'keto bacon'

    you'll get the most micro nutrition from red meat .. steak, ground beef, buffalo, lamb, venison. get the fattiest cuts (hard to do with venison). also EGGs. lots of whole eggs. and throw in some Salmon once in awhile too.
    thats your base.. chicken thighs or a whole chicken once in awhile is fine. some pork once in awhile is fine too.

    next is dairy. can be a very useful tool while on keto . things like cheese, whole milk, cottage cheese have their place for sure and have their own micro nutrition aspects . this way a meal can also be a palet of more then just meat . also BUTTER. add that shit to everything (lots of nutrition in butter).
    example, have an 8oz steak cooked in butter, some cooked broccoli with butter, and instead of a potato, you have a bowl of cottage cheese for a pallet change.

    next is veggies . more micro nutrition here (but don't over do them, they can also contain anti nutrients). some are also higher in carbs then others. example a carrot is a bit higher in carbs compared to spinach (but still one large carrot is still probably only 6 carbs).
    mix it up and get a diversity . spinach, arugula, broccoli, carrots, bell peppers, asparagus, etc..
    your better off lightly cooking or steaming them then eating them raw (you cook some of the natural toxins out of the veggies and bring out more micro nutrients this way).

    lastly , organ meat can have benefit. like beef liver . as well as adding in extra fats like olive oil , add olives to your veggies, add avacodo, etc.. then for a snack, a handful of nuts.

    you can get a wide variety of micro nutrients doing keto

    every once in awhile, maybe twice per week . throw in a very small amount of fruit. like a a melon or some berries. things that are low glucose fruit and do NOT eat too much
    Hi mate i have been on keto now for 4 days im still not in ketosis i know it can take up to a week and maybe more especially for me just finishing dbol and still on 500mg test i suppose i would be hold more glycogen in my muscles than usual. but what im not sure about is how much protein to have im trying to get 200g of protein but if i was to eat lets say 80% fat a day with 200g of protien my calories would be way above maintenance if i had to guess i would say i have been eating somthing like 45% fat 50% protein 5% carbs. im worried about not getting enough protein im worried about gluconeogenesis i did find one post saying you dont need as much protien on low carb is this true

  7. #7
    Nephets's Avatar
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    Eat your 200g of protein and then figure out how many more calories you need for the day and that’s going to be your fat intake, minus the minor amount of carbs your going to need from veggies.

  8. #8
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    Keto is fantastic when utilized properly. Often people eat too much protein and not enough fat. Ketones are muscle sparing, so people don't need 225,250,300g+ of protein per dsy
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  9. #9
    Noname81 is offline Junior Member
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    What would be a requirement protein intake per pound of lean body mass on the keto diet

  10. #10
    GearHeaded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noname81 View Post
    What would be a requirement protein intake per pound of lean body mass on the keto diet
    depends on if your doing Keto for health reasons or for merely body composition reasons. a "traditioinal" keto diet for heath purposes is only going to be about 25% of total cals from protein and 70% from fat.
    so if your cals are at 2500 per day , only 625 cals are coming from protein (156g of protein per day).

    for body composition purposes though you can go higher protein imo. traditional keto advocates will warn you that if you go too high on protein that it will knock you out of ketosis because of gluconeogenisis (ie, the liver converting amino acids into glucose). but this is a bit mis informed. Protein intake itself does not stimulate gluconeogenis. Cortisol is the hormone that stimulates gluconeogenisis. and wither your protein intake is high or low , if your Cortisol levels elevate gluconeogenisis will be stimulated. again an over consumption of protein does not stimulate this.
    in fact there are plenty of people on a Carnivore diet (eating only meat) eating 800 grams of protein per day that are still in ketosis when they check. so high protein is not much of a determining factor in ketosis or not.

    and on the other hand, if body composition is your goal, then who gives a shit wither you go in and out of ketosis or not. ketones are not magic. they have no special ability by themselves to burn more body fat, get you leaner or build muscle then glucose . 99% of all pro bodybuilders on stage at 250 pounds and 4% body fat never produced a ketone in their life. so clearly ketones are not 'needed' to get lean muscular and shredded.

    for body composition purposes I would consume at least 1g of protein per pound of body weight.. IF your not on cycle while doing this diet then I would increase that to 1.5. then fill in the rest of your calorie needs with fat.
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