Not eating carbs with fat

[BWhitaker]

I always hear this and i kinda have gotten half hearted responses to why. I have heard that if you eat carbs your insulin raises and if you have fat in your blood you will store that fat expecially if you have extra calories.

Basically what i do is my first four meal of the day are carb and protien and my last two are protien and fat. What do you all feel about this

[tatertoos]

The main concept here is that fats and carbs are prime energy sources for your body. (Moreso than protein.) With these 2 macros in the same meal, your body will choose the energy source that it prefers at that time. Therefore, the unused energy source will most likely be stored as fat when there is excessive amounts.

[BWhitaker]

The main concept here is that fats and carbs are prime energy sources for your body. (Moreso than protein.) With these 2 macros in the same meal, your body will choose the energy source that it prefers at that time. Therefore, the unused energy source will most likely be stored as fat when there is excessive amounts.

i was just kinda curious about if you are having a carb meal...what is the acceptable grams of fat in that meal.

[daman1]

i was just kinda curious about if you are having a carb meal...what is the acceptable grams of fat in that meal.

Really depends on the person. If they are bigger than they can ingest more at a sitting, if they're smaller than less. I once in a while will take some carbs and fats with my protein, but not often.

[tatertoos]

That would depend on your activity level before and after you eat and how sensitive you are to carbs (and probably many other physiological factors). When I do eat carbs I opt for less than 5g fat (if possible). I put on fat easily, though...

[bigsd67]

it also depends on the insulin response from the carbs that are being consumed. generally i shoot for 5-8 grams of carbs after fiber is subtracted. when eating a carb meal between 1 - 5 is my goal.

[daman1]

it also depends on the insulin response from the carbs that are being consumed. generally i shoot for 5-8 grams of carbs after fiber is subtracted. when eating a carb meal between 1 - 5 is my goal.

only 5-8 grams? wow bro, that's incredibly low. i couldn't stand that. don't you feel draggy from such a low intake?

[bigsd67]

that is a per-meal basis bro....on an off day i consume about 50g carbs with 20-25 fiber....workout day i get 120-130g carbs with 25-30g fiber. i guess i should have clarified.

[daman1]

that is a per-meal basis bro....on an off day i consume about 50g carbs with 20-25 fiber....workout day i get 120-130g carbs with 25-30g fiber. i guess i should have clarified.

gotcha.

[Kim2884]

I'm still torn on this issue. The concept makes sense to a degree, but there isn't much in the way of actual evidence to back it up. Also, I'm not sure how much it matters when one is eating a hypocaloric diet. The idea is that after carbs are used for energy, the fat will be stored when in excessive amounts. So, does this still apply when there is a caloric deficit and theoretically, nothing should be stored? I'm not sure...for now, I separate carbs and fats because I've made myself paranoid about it.

[bigsd67]

well i do agree with kim that there is not any actual evidence to support the theory...however most everyone on this board including me have done it and found success..now is it from actual separation or from dropping calories....there is some science to back it up, but it is the biology stuff that people like swole cat and rambo know...personally i will continue to do it because not only does it seem to work pretty friggin well, but i feel satisfied all day and this diet thing isnt that hard to do

[SwoleCat]

Ponder this:

If one were to eat 6 meals of pizza (fat/carbs,some protein) a day, but still be under his/her "caloric intake limit" and theoretically should lose "weight" (not fat), do you really think he/she would see a body comp change or FAT loss? Total Kcals are under the "total limit" to lose weight each day, yes, however look at the food itself and what it's comprised of, and what macros are together in the meals. (Fat/carbs) Now, I know no one eats pizza for 6 meals, but this was given as an example of carbs/fat together.

The answer: the person will actually lose no/very little "FAT", but will lose "weight". Weight being MUSCLE and fat, NOT just fat. As well, the food choice in this instance is CRAPPY, so the protein needed to support a muscular frame and to keep/build lean mass in not evident. So even though he/she is under the "caloric limit" everyone seems to focus on, remember that it's WHAT the calories are comprised of, where, when, how much, with what, that makes all the difference at the end of the day. So, again, the total Kcals per day theoretically is enough for the person to lose "weight", but when he/she is eating 6 meals of a high gi carb and fat together, better believe some of those meals are being stored as fat each time, especially if the same feeding patterns (carbs/fat) keep being taken in back to back over the course of the day.

Pizza is a far out example, but was used so you can see how the combos of macros do affect results. Your choices for meals may have the same affect, dependent upon what you choose to seperate or not seperate.

One person could eat 3000 kcals in one fashion, and I could eat the same amount of Kcals in different formats and together in certain manners, and achieve totally different results in the final outcome.

~SC~

[eggplant]

bravo....sc spreading some fantastic knowledge...

[usualsuspect]

Ponder this:

If one were to eat 6 meals of pizza (fat/carbs,some protein) a day, but still be under his/her "caloric intake limit" and theoretically should lose "weight" (not fat), do you really think he/she would see a body comp change or FAT loss? Total Kcals are under the "total limit" to lose weight each day, yes, however look at the food itself and what it's comprised of, and what macros are together in the meals. (Fat/carbs) Now, I know no one eats pizza for 6 meals, but this was given as an example of carbs/fat together.

The answer: the person will actually lose no/very little "FAT", but will lose "weight". Weight being MUSCLE and fat, NOT just fat. As well, the food choice in this instance is CRAPPY, so the protein needed to support a muscular frame and to keep/build lean mass in not evident. So even though he/she is under the "caloric limit" everyone seems to focus on, remember that it's WHAT the calories are comprised of, where, when, how much, with what, that makes all the difference at the end of the day. So, again, the total Kcals per day theoretically is enough for the person to lose "weight", but when he/she is eating 6 meals of a high gi carb and fat together, better believe some of those meals are being stored as fat each time, especially if the same feeding patterns (carbs/fat) keep being taken in back to back over the course of the day.

Pizza is a far out example, but was used so you can see how the combos of macros do affect results. Your choices for meals may have the same affect, dependent upon what you choose to seperate or not seperate.

One person could eat 3000 kcals in one fashion, and I could eat the same amount of Kcals in different formats and together in certain manners, and achieve totally different results in the final outcome.

~SC~

Way to break it down Swole... I would of just said "a calorie is not a calorie" myself. I guess it explains why your the most sought after guy on this board lol.

[Kim2884]

I agree with you, swole...but do we really know if the same thing would happen if one were to eat 6 meals of oats, egg whites and flax oil? The fat/carb combination is still there, but the poor choice of food and high GI carbs are not. Not to mention, pizza does not have much protein, so of course muscle loss would be expected. Again, i don't have a strong opinion either way so i'm not trying to argue. I'm just putting it out there.

[bigsd67]

I agree with you, swole...but do we really know if the same thing would happen if one were to eat 6 meals of oats, egg whites and flax oil? The fat/carb combination is still there, but the poor choice of food and high GI carbs are not. Not to mention, pizza does not have much protein, so of course muscle loss would be expected. Again, i don't have a strong opinion either way so i'm not trying to argue. I'm just putting it out there.

that is a very interesting question and something to ponder.....we all know that oats wont cause much if any of an insulin spike, and EFA's for fat makes a difference...im not really getting at anything there, just really bumping this up for the answer, as im a bit curious.

[daman1]

I agree with you, swole...but do we really know if the same thing would happen if one were to eat 6 meals of oats, egg whites and flax oil? The fat/carb combination is still there, but the poor choice of food and high GI carbs are not. Not to mention, pizza does not have much protein, so of course muscle loss would be expected. Again, i don't have a strong opinion either way so i'm not trying to argue. I'm just putting it out there.

I'm confused at what your saying. Are you saying that if we eat foods can we expect to get bad results? If that is your question, then no I would say that the same thing would not happen as you even stated the cohice of foods will be better, so the results will be better.

[silverfox]

I am eating basicly using dC's method which is lower carbs all early in day, high protien and fat. It working fairly well for me. I am prone to gain bodyfat around my waist which is a bitch come contest time. I am eating handy 200g of fat from 2pm-9pm most days no carbs and of course protien. This method is keeping me leaner than before at same bodyweight. So works for me at least.

My meals from 5am-12pm are protien and carbs very low in fat.

[bigsd67]

I'm confused at what your saying. Are you saying that if we eat foods can we expect to get bad results? If that is your question, then no I would say that the same thing would not happen as you even stated the cohice of foods will be better, so the results will be better.

daman i think she is essentially saying that if low GI carbs like oats, are combined with protein and then high amounts of essential fatty acids like flax would there still be a lot of fat storage and muscle loss.

[fritz2435]

I believe I read earlier in a thread that flax in a 10g carb protein shake is ok.

[usualsuspect]

daman i think she is essentially saying that if low GI carbs like oats, are combined with protein and then high amounts of essential fatty acids like flax would there still be a lot of fat storage and muscle loss.

As I understand it...since the gi scale is only telling us how fast our glucose rises when a certain carb is ingested and not the actual insulin response we get from that meal then eating the two macros together can essentially create a synergistic insulin release.

To be on the safe side I simply avoid combining the fats and carbs in any fashion and save all any insulin spikes for morning and post workout.

[bigsd67]

as do I usual and hopefully by may ill achieve the low bodyfat i am after.

[Kim2884]

As I understand it...since the gi scale is only telling us how fast our glucose rises when a certain carb is ingested and not the actual insulin response we get from that meal then eating the two macros together can essentially create a synergistic insulin release.

To be on the safe side I simply avoid combining the fats and carbs in any fashion and save all any insulin spikes for morning and post workout.

It is true that GI does not always accurately predict insulin response, however, GI predicts insulin response relatively well, and it is the only guideline we currently have. The up-and-coming insulin index has not been researched enough. But if you want to talk about insulin, you may find it interesting that recent studies on insulin response have shown that combinations of protein and fat such as beef ellicit more of an insulin response than a lot of carbohydrates. Until there is further information on this, I think we can still use the GI to evaluate the effects of foods on insulin. But i am being a hypocrite here because I still separate carbs and fats...I just don't know if I have reason to.

[tatertoos]

**** you people, you got me thinking again...LOL!

In the presence of protein and fat, alone (0 carbs). What would be the effect on your body of an insulin spike?

[daman1]

It is true that GI does not always accurately predict insulin response, however, GI predicts insulin response relatively well, and it is the only guideline we currently have. The up-and-coming insulin index has not been researched enough. But if you want to talk about insulin, you may find it interesting that recent studies on insulin response have shown that combinations of protein and fat such as beef ellicit more of an insulin response than a lot of carbohydrates. Until there is further information on this, I think we can still use the GI to evaluate the effects of foods on insulin. But i am being a hypocrite here because I still separate carbs and fats...I just don't know if I have reason to.

Yes you have a reason to separate the two. One is used best for p.w. for weight training, and the other p.w. after a cardio session.

[bigsd67]

It is true that GI does not always accurately predict insulin response, however, GI predicts insulin response relatively well, and it is the only guideline we currently have. The up-and-coming insulin index has not been researched enough. But if you want to talk about insulin, you may find it interesting that recent studies on insulin response have shown that combinations of protein and fat such as beef ellicit more of an insulin response than a lot of carbohydrates. Until there is further information on this, I think we can still use the GI to evaluate the effects of foods on insulin. But i am being a hypocrite here because I still separate carbs and fats...I just don't know if I have reason to.

hippocritical b!tch...hahah j/k kim, gotta love a girl that starts a really interesting and educational debate

[Kim2884]

Yes you have a reason to separate the two. One is used best for p.w. for weight training, and the other p.w. after a cardio session.

Well I'm not arguing that point at all. I'm talking more about other meals that don't require specific macronutrients. Like, let's say someone's just maintaining and they eat carbs for the 1st 2 meals of the day, as well as pwo and ppwo. Could those first 2 meals contain fat as well as protein and carbs? I'm not really getting to any specific point here...I just want to get people thinking. We don't really KNOW right now if there is good reason to always separate carbs and fat. Do whatever you believe or have the best results with. I prefer to err on the side of caution, but i don't think this concept should be accepted as an undeniable truth just yet. There's just not enough information out there.

[daman1]

Well I'm not arguing that point at all. I'm talking more about other meals that don't require specific macronutrients. Like, let's say someone's just maintaining and they eat carbs for the 1st 2 meals of the day, as well as pwo and ppwo. Could those first 2 meals contain fat as well as protein and carbs? I'm not really getting to any specific point here...I just want to get people thinking. We don't really KNOW right now if there is good reason to always separate carbs and fat. Do whatever you believe or have the best results with. I prefer to err on the side of caution, but i don't think this concept should be accepted as an undeniable truth just yet. There's just not enough information out there.

It could contain both carbs and fats. But for those carbs, I would choose ones that have very minute or little impact such as green beans.

[fritz2435]

I just read an article at bodybuilding.com in which someone states that you should have all nacronutrients in each meal. I think it was about cutting and was on the home page of the supersite. I will post link later.

[usualsuspect]

Well I'm not arguing that point at all. I'm talking more about other meals that don't require specific macronutrients. Like, let's say someone's just maintaining and they eat carbs for the 1st 2 meals of the day, as well as pwo and ppwo. Could those first 2 meals contain fat as well as protein and carbs? I'm not really getting to any specific point here...I just want to get people thinking. We don't really KNOW right now if there is good reason to always separate carbs and fat. Do whatever you believe or have the best results with. I prefer to err on the side of caution, but i don't think this concept should be accepted as an undeniable truth just yet. There's just not enough information out there.

Yeah Kim I totally agree with the philosphy of doing what works for you but I don't think the idea of NEver eat a fat and carb meal together is an etched in stone bodybuilding commandment. I think its more of a guideline people should consider when selecting their food choices and combinations.

A tsp of olive with your yam may not cause a big insulin shock but if your having lets say potatoes and steak for dinner than I think your running a large a big risk of a major insulin shock that could otherwise have been prvented by avoiding the two in the first place. Then again, if the meal meets your calorie needs (and doesn't exceed them) and you love steak and potatoes more than anything in the world...than I would say have a field day with it. Just my opinion,

~US~

[Kim2884]

I agree US...nice way to sum it up.