deca gyno

[brutis]

I was just wondering about gyno caused by deca. Is it true that no anti-e's will help to reduce gyno while using deca?? A friend of mine told me that deca causes gyno through progesterone conversion and not estrogen conversion, is this true, and if so do anti-e's actually help or not?? I'm only on 400mg of deca/week for 8 weeks and 250mg of sus for 5 weeks. It's my first cycle so I didn't want to start real big, do I even have to worry about gyno with 400mg/week?

Peace

[PaPaPumP]

The only way to completely eliminate deca induced gyno is getting the abortion pill. That will be very hard to get, as you are obviously not pregnant. But winny does very well in minimizing estrogen build up from Deca. But with that low a dose, you shouldn't have to worry. But maybe get yourself some Winny to be on the safe side.

P

[brutis]

If I did get winny, when would I use it in my cycle and how much would I need. And one more question, a buddy of mine did a deca cycle and used chrysin during it, and he didn't get gyno at all. Was he just lucky or does chyrisin actually help reduce estrogen levels.

Thanks
Peace

[JRob]

In your cycle you may want to run the deca for 8 weeks and the sus for 10. There was a post that you should look at on here about half life of steroids in your system, it was very informative and you really should read it. It tells you about taking a test for a little while after you stop the deca to keep your gains or something along that line. In my cycle of the same as, I ran it like this: weeks 1-8 deca 400, weeks 1-10 sus 500mg and weeks 6-10 winstrol 50mg ed. Clomid was started 3 weeks after the last sus injection. I kept most of the gains and strength. As far as the gyno I am not sure but I think arimidex is supposed to help with that or provirion. But at the dose you are at the winny should be enough. I am still an amature at this game though so see what other people tell you as well.

[Mike]

Deca gyno is caused by progesterone - not estrogen - and airmidex or proviron wont help (nor will liquidex of tamoxifen for that matter)

RU-486 as well as certain hormone therapies that are used for trating breast cancer in women and post hysterectomies are the only "cures" - winny will help prevent it - run winny at 50mg/day for 4wks during or just after your deca and you will be fine - stop your deca a couple weeks before your test (that means run sus for 10wks not 5, yup that means buying more, and do deca wks 1-8)

[crackerlinebacker]

Arimidex is an anti-aromatase and has been shown to work. Im now convinced that progesterone can't be produced in the body since its not a natural hormone within our system. So I've changed my thinking on that one as well. Hard to find good studies now a days. Sure makes it hard. But hell..least the lifting is the easy part.

BigC

[Mike]

Cracker - can you show me the study you are refering to where airmidex has been shown to work against progesterone related gyno?

[crackerlinebacker]

Im not so sure anymore that progesterone can be manufactured in our bodies. But we do know that arimidex is an anti-aromatse, or aromatase inhibitor.

BigC

[Mike]

When airmidex is taken it attaches to the aromatase and blocks the activity of the aromatase enzyme that changes androgens to estrogen. Thus airmidex stops the production of estrogen - it lowers the amount of estrogen in your body and keeps it from binding to receptors. It does NOT effect other hormones in your body - including progesterone.

Progesterone is different than estrogen and anastrozole (airmidex) ONLY inhibits the binding of ESTROGEN to receptors, nothing else. Progesterone is produced in the ovaries - so no WE as men do not produce this naturally in our bodies.

[Mike]

bump

[brutis]

I'm a little confused here. So no anti-e's will help with deca gyno, is that what everyone is saying?? And instead I should take 50mg/day for 4 weeks of winny. About how much does a 20ml bottle of 50mg winny cost or how much if you buy amps?? This seems like alot of extra shots and also a bit of an expense, is there anything else I can do to help with deca gyno.

Thanks for the help.
Peace
Brutis

[dumbells101]

I have never had a prob with Deca and the experiences of those I know were that deca's aromtiziing was not a prob. Anyone else want to share an experience?

Copied from drug profiles located on this site.

A conversion into estrogen, that means an aromatizing process, is possible with Deca-Durabolin but occurs at a lower rate than ex: testosterone. During competi-tions with doping tests Deca must not be taken since the metabo-lites in the body can be proven in a urine analysis up to 18 months later. The risk of potential water retention and aromatizing to estro-gen can be successfully prevented by combining the use of Proviron with Nolvadex. A preparatory stack often observed in competing athletes includes 400 mg/week Deca-Durabolin, 50 mg/day Winstrol, 228 mg/week Parabolan, and 25 mg/day Oxandrolone.

Although the side effects with Deca are relatively low with dosages of 400 mg/week, androgenic-caused side effects can occur. Most problems manifest themselves in high blood pressure and a pro-longed time for blood clotting, which can cause frequent nasal bleed-ing and prolonged bleeding of cuts, as well as increased production of the sebaceous gland and occasional acne. Some athletes also re-port headaches and sexual overstimulation. When very high dos-ages are taken over a prolonged period, spermatogenesis can be in-hibited in men, i.e. the testes produce less testosterone. The reason is that Deca-Durabolin, like almost all steroids, inhibits the release of gonadotropins from the hypophysis.

[Mike]

I am embarassed to say so...but thats not entirely correct - read my above posts

THOSE are correct - if anyone has studies to the contrary I would gladly read them and be open to changing this view...

[dumbells101]

I'd be extremely surprised if anyone had any documented studies From ANY true source that explains or shows cause and effect form anabolic steroid use other than for burn patients, aids victims, children who's bodies don't produce Hgh properly, older men who aren't producing enough test, or a legit purpose the drug was intended for. I have never read (and I've searched) anything that explains clinically how certain types of test react together...why a "veterinary" drug called Winstrol is good for cutting bodyfat, how using a hormone found in a pregnant womans urine will stimulates the Leydig's cells in the testes, etc. Every bit of knowledge we have on gear use comes from underground or somones personal experience. Think about it... why would a pharmacutical company spend millions of dollars on research to teach people how to use a class 3 controlled substance. If the research were done on these substances then it would be much easier to go see your md to get what you want, and A.S. would not be a 500 million dollar black market. If the research was there then we would have it more readily.

I'm Paul Harvey...Goodnight

[PaPaPumP]

Did you have that novel published?! . Just kdding man. Great points made. You got me swaying your way in who's got the correct answer. However, Gotta let Mike respond, because you never know with him! He probably has boatloads of reports conducted on HIM and AS use...LOL


P

[dumbells101]

I hope Mike has the info cause I want the truth! Educate Me!

[Mike]

Listen up Paul Harvey -

Nobodyu is doing all the work for us - but the foundation of credible scientific study IS there. If I can pull together how tamoxifen or anastrozole works pharmacokinetically (nolvadex and airmidex) etc etc then I can put those studies together with how we know the body works internally and make logical deductions on how these drugs would effect other systems within the body - with and without the added steroid compounds - knowing how the steroids work and what their pk results are.

So no - I was not asking for him to produce a credible clinical study on the treatment of progesterone related gyno (the before mentioned deca gyno) with airmidex - for one I know that this isn't effective so I know that it could not be produced. And secondly - what I WAS open to seeing was if he could come up with a study showing that an anti-aromatase could keep progesterone from binding to receptors and thus diluting the plausibility of gynocomastia.

Get it now??

[Mike]

You have just been educated.

[Mike]

BTW - DB101 - just reread this thread and I am NOT saying that you will get gyno from deca - in fact it's extremely hard to do so since the conversaion is into progesterone which is not naturally produced in the male body and it's converted into small amounts of this hormone - it takes a good amount to acquire gyno

Papa -

What do you agree with? I am unsure as to what is actually up for debate at this point....are you guys arguing that airmidex or nolvadex will reduce the risk of progesterone related gyno? Or that there is no way to back this up with real studies?

Oh yeah...and a final point - I never said that airmidex or noldvadex would not decrease the incidence of gyno. In fact it WILL - Let's say for example you are taking test and deca (dosages irrelevant in this case) and you have slight conversions of BOTH estrogen (from the test) and progesterone (from the gyno) then cutting down the estrogen build up with an anti aromatase (air. or nolv.) will decrease gyno chances from estrogen AND because it is more likely to get gyno when you have a build up of the TWO in conjunction. But do these drugs actually cut down the amount of PROGESTERONE in the system or by any means keep it from binding to receptors and causing gyno? No. So if that cycle were just deca - no matter what the actual chances of getting gyno were - airmidex, nolvadex etc would NOT chance those chances for the better OR worse.

Get it?

[dumbells101]

Mike, School's not out yet Bro, I never said nolvadex and airmidex had anything to do with progesterone aromitization, I simply stated what I know from what I read and heard. And I'm not here ditchin on you about clinical studies. You say we can "make logical deductions on how these drugs would effect other systems within the body - with and without the added steroid compounds" but again that did not answer my question. You simply restated what I know... in clinical terms. I said show me a study that demonstrates what and how we use the different compounds together and or in what combinations, not tell me how they work within the body. If you want to give us a chemistry lesson then go ahead and explain it so EVERYONE can understand in simple terms. I'm sure virtually everyone would benefit from your pharmacological expertise. Follow me?

[Mike]

Originally posted by dumbells101
Mike, School's not out yet Bro, I never said nolvadex and airmidex had anything to do with progesterone aromitization, I simply stated what I know from what I read and heard. And I'm not here ditchin on you about clinical studies. You say we can "make logical deductions on how these drugs would effect other systems within the body - with and without the added steroid compounds" but again that did not answer my question. You simply restated what I know... in clinical terms. I said show me a study that demonstrates what and how we use the different compounds together and or in what combinations, not tell me how they work within the body. If you want to give us a chemistry lesson then go ahead and explain it so EVERYONE can understand in simple terms. I'm sure virtually everyone would benefit from your pharmacological expertise. Follow me?

To be honest bro no I do not follow you - I stated already that there are NO studies that show certain interactions like the treatment of progesterone related gyno with an anti-aromatase - BUT there ARE studies on progesterone conversions, anti-aromatase drugs for the treatment of estrogen build ups, progesterone related gyno, estrogen related gyno etc - and by compiling these studies it IS possible to put together abstracts supporting or defying the use of certain treatments BASED on factual clinical information. I NEVER said that the studies you were asking for existed. So I don't know where you got that.

Also - you said -

"Mike, School's not out yet Bro, I never said nolvadex and airmidex had anything to do with progesterone aromitization, I simply stated what I know from what I read and heard."

Progesterone aromitization? I don't know really what you are talking about or referring to here but if this is in reference to my denying that these drugs (airmidex and nolvadex) would help with progesterone related gyno - well that was the original topic of the thread if you remember.

Are you being sarcastic here?

"If you want to give us a chemistry lesson then go ahead and explain it so EVERYONE can understand in simple terms. I'm sure virtually everyone would benefit from your pharmacological expertise. Follow me?"

God I hope you're not trying to be rude or sarcastic - if you are serious and you really want that then that's what I will provide.

You also stated:

"I said show me a study that demonstrates what and how we use the different compounds together and or in what combinations, not tell me how they work within the body."

Well as I said earlier - if you are looking for studies on anti-aromatase drugs like airmidex being used to treat deca gyno - these studies don't exist. But by telling you how deca works in the body and what the process is in going from deca to progesterone to gyno and also telling you how airmidex works in the body well then I have presented to you the information you are looking for - I guess just not in the form of a "study" that you would like.

I am getting a little confused here - let's start over - if there is something I said that you disagree with please state that clearly. If you have a question about something I have said or one in general please state that as well and we will go from there.

[dumbells101]

Ok Mike, not being sarcastic. Seriously I value your input and am certain everyone else values your expertise as a drug rep. I posted the only info I personally read or experienced on Deca aromitizing, and it was not related to progesterone. My bad on that, I then stated in the thread that there were no studies done on anti aromitizing drugs related to A.S. use, and that we are limited to the experience of those who have learned over the past 40+years. The other part was obviously not related to this post and that's where I lost you.

This is what I would like you to do. Explain (as if to a 9 year old) the mechanism by which aromitization takes place and how certain drugs help those cases. And which ones will not work. No dis-respect here and I may be wrong but perhaps some people may not understand aromitization, PK or Negative feedback etc.

My original post was to let Brutus know that deca aromitizing was rare.

Peace Bro

[Mike]

Ok gotcha bud - here goes....

The two types of aromatization we are talking about now is the type from testosterone and the type from deca. To clarify - first off aromatization is "the conversion of"

Testosterone will aromatize (or convert), once in the system, to estrogen. We all know what estrogen is - it is the female hormanal equivalent to testosterone. When someone is taking in excess amounts of testosterone (on a steroid cycle that obviously raises test levels above that of normal) that means there will be extra amounts of estrogen once the test has converted. Make sense? Good. This excess of estrogen in the male body once built up can cause gynocamastia. If I need to define that I will - but I think we're ok on that one.

Now for the aromatization of deca. This is the same process as with testosterone with one exception. The deca does NOT convert into estrogen. But instead progesterone. This is another female hormone that is created in the ovaries and NOT in males. When this builds up in the system it too will cause gyno. But NOT estrogen induced (like it would be with testosterone cycles) but instead, progesterone induced.

Now to explain how the anti-aromatase drugs work - like Airmidex (anastrozole).

When airmidex is taken it attaches to the aromatase and blocks the activity of the aromatase enzyme that changes androgens to estrogen. (This process is airmidex keeping the testosterone from converting to estrogen) Thus airmidex stops the production of estrogen - it lowers the amount of estrogen in your body and keeps it from binding to receptors. It does NOT effect other hormones in your body - including progesterone.

In short -

So if someone was going to get gyno from testosterone - taking airmidex will keep the testosterone from converting and eventually causing gyno.

On the other hand - if someone was taking deca rather than testosterone - the gyno they would be vulnerable to would be caused by progesterone in the body. And since airmidex ONLY stops the production of estrogen and NOT progesterone - the the chances of getting gyno on a deca cycle will NOT be affected by taking airmidex.

As a side note - you mentioned something about how common it would be to get gyno from deca. NOT common. It takes a large amount of progesterone to cause gyno and in the doses that most people use of deca - it's not a very feasible threat.

Ok well - it wasn't exactly the explanation suitable for a nine year old but this isn't a nine year old conversation we're having. And I don't think we have any nine year olds on here. I DID try to simplify it as much as I could however. And I think it will be comprehensible to someone with a high school diploma. PLEASE feel free to ask questions about anything that was not clear and I can further simplify certain points of this whole process and interaction.

[dumbells101]

See everyone, that is an education. And I believe even my nine year old daughter would get most of that. Great info...great post.

Thanks Mike

[Mike]

Woohoo! Great - I am glad you understood - now seriously - please ask any questions if yu want me to verify something - I may not have done it so well I wont be insulted - if all is clear I think I will change the title of this thread and even toss it up into the important articles section.

[dumbells101]

My fault the wire got crossed I added a whole topic to the thread without trying to. Thanks again Mike

[arthurb999]

How does winstrol fit into this picture as the protector against progesterone induced gyno?

[Mike]

LOL

Oh shit...I KNEW someone was gonna catch and bring that one up

Ok here goes....the molecular changes required to make an AAS orally active also increases the binding and subsequent antagonism of the GCR (the C-17 alkylated steroids such as stanozolol, oxymethylone, methandrostenelone)

So essentially - those orals such as anadrol and especially winny are molecularly structured (in order to become active for oral administration) in such a way that the drug will bind to the progesterone receptor but is NOT progestogenic and acts in non AR mechanisms (AR = adrogen receptor) Whereas Deca IS progestogenic

Conclusion being that YES winny is effective in reducing the incidence of progesterone induced gyno

I know EXACTLY what the next question coming up is going to be and the answer is YES

Phew......Is this a quiz or what!? LOL

[Mike]

DB101:

Read this post - Cycleon put it up a while back - i thought it was funny cause you were just asking me to explain in terms a nine year old could understand and this is written in comic book fashion! LOL

read up...

T-Man vs E-Man

[Mike]

You guys dissapoint me........you pick the hell outta my brain and when i give ya what you want to leave me! My goodness - you're just like women - all of ya!

[arthurb999]

Sorry Mike...I guess we weren't be apprecative and we hurt your feelings.

Are you on clomid???

[dumbells101]

Hey Mike relax, after all that brain food, I'm still flossing. I'll Have another post for you in a while.

[Mike]

LOL I am kidding bud - no worries - don't worry the reprieve is nice!

No I am not on clomid

But Arthur - was your question answered?

[arthurb999]

Yea bro, I'm set. Everyone here always told me that winnie blocked deca gyno but no one said how. Since there was a scientific deca gyno discussion going on, I figured this was the best time to ask.

Because of this board, I am BY FAR the most educated one of my friends on the AS subject. Thanks for your help.

[Mike]

No problem brother - keep reading up! It's your health you're dealing with!

[Mike]

There's some good info in here - I am gonna make this a sticky until I compile an article to post up top.

[PaPaPumP]

Good post...Mike AND DB101.. I love a good debate, keeps the boards thriving!

[CYCLEON]

ok, Gents I hate to come in here but YOU do realize that progesterone does not "aromatize". Aromatase is an enzyme required for the conversion of androgens (test) to estrogens. Progesterone operates via a whole different pathway and is effected by the level of Test to DHT conversion. Mike Im sure you know that.

Second - for all this fine talk, does anyone have any idea what the correct dosage for RU-486 is if you did get your hands on it? I do and can say that it does work as I know several people who use it regularly.

As to studies of combatting proge titties, they are unlikely to exist - however it is simple logic to understand that if progesterone receptors are blocked, then there will be no buildup.

[Mike]

Cycleon -

As for progesterone "aromatizing" You are absolutely right - it doesn't - thats what the point of the post was. I was trying to explain why using an anti-aromatase wouldn't work against prog because as you said the mechanism of action is NOT related to the process of progesterone conversion

And you are also right about the studies - progesterone is a hormone foreign to male bodies - shouldnt be there. It's made naturally ONLY in the ovaries - and in any clinical use of drugs that convert to progesterone - there are NO uses that dictate doses high enough to create unhealthy gyno inducing amounts of progesterone in males so there would be no studies on the treatment of male progesterone induced gyno

[The Iron Game]

"A conversion into estrogen, that means an aromatizing process"

a conversion is not the same thing as aromatising, some steroids convert but do not aromatise.

Mike as usual passed this with flying colors and I look forward to learning more apart from winny being of use which I disagree on