"Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT by WARMachine"

[8iron]

ho and dont forget to list ur stats and cycle history.......that way they will give you better feedback

[bjpennnn]

I dont understand your question?

Do you mean is it possible to reverse gyno after its been developed for over a year?

yes more like the last 6 months.

[WARMachine]

Is it possible?

I suppose. It is likely? No.

You might reduce a certain amount, but i wouldnt count on a full reversal. Once they are there, they are there.

[WARMachine]

BUMP! Im seeing a lot of posts that can be answered by reading the STICKIES!


Also just an F.Y.I., i added some info on Proviron and i finished my work on PCT last night. Just waiting for Admin to move somethings around so i can post it in back to back posts.

Should be done by tonight.

[WARMachine]

BIG OL' FREAKIN BUMP!


I JUST ADDED MY INFO ON PCT! ONE THING I WILL SAY IS, IT TOOK A WHILE. MOSTLY CAUSE IM LAZY. AND I WILL MENTION THAT I FORGOT TO LINK ONE OF THE STUDIES I QUOTED, BUT I WILL FIND IT ASAP!

ANYWAY, ENJOY GUYS. HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WILL FIND IT HELPFUL!


-WAR


p.s. i will be having the thread's name changed soon.

[Someguy123]

i see no mention of HCG anywhere. whats the deal with this?? ive always been told to use it with PCT. but then everyone on this board says to discontinue it when you start PCT. but yet nobody really has any info about why, you would do this. i have a pretty good understanding of how things work in the body, but im obviously missing something when it comes to HCG, because it makes sense to use it for PCT. does it have a counter productive effect when combined with clomid or nolva??

[WARMachine]

Ive been working on adding info on hCG . But for the record, i do NOT recommend the use of hCG during PCT as it is counterproductive when it comes to increasing the HPTA.

I will cover this topic soon.

Look up Swiftos PCT sticky in the PCT section as he covers it a bit.

Sorry for the delay guys.

[Slide]

GREAT thread WAR. did you learn anything about Ralox.? Sounds promising, i am trying to learn more about it...

[bma33]

Great thread, Thank you for all the info...

newbie in training

[Swifto]

Good read, well done.

[WARMachine]

Thanks bro! ^ That means a LOT coming from you.

[WARMachine]

Great thread, Thank you for all the info...

newbie in training

Thats why i wrote it.

Youre welcome bud!

[TITANIUM]

Good read.There is no substitute for experience.BUMP.BUMP.BUBPITY BUMP.Thanxs Titanium

[Hermogenes]

Thanks man.

Obrigado

[meat-machine]

Bump.

[bifda]

whats PCT?































only joking lol

[wukillabee]

Any info on Raloxifene? Such as dosage, good for on cycle gyno instead of nolva, good for pct, etc? Thanks!

[gmoney85]

Good info

[EmilianoH]

so in resume if i feel something rare in my nipples i should start Tamoxifen right away, if i don't i just do my normal PCT

[WARMachine]

^ Is that a question directed at me?

[rod_davis]

^ Is that a question directed at me?

War,
I'm curious how you would envision your protocol being modified (if at all) for TRT (200 mgs Cyp weekly) running indefinitely?
R

[WARMachine]

Which protocol are you referring to my friend?

The gyno reversal, the ERSE prevention, or PCT?

[rod_davis]

Funny, I originally had the Gyno Reduction and ESRE prevention protocol pasted and then removed it thinking.."Oh War is a mind reader he will know what I'm thinking.." lol Sorry about that...

I reduced down to what I expect I need by way of starting dose. What (as you know from my previous post) I am wondering about is ability to run Adex and Tamox indefinitely given my Test. is also indefinite. I do know at this level of Test. I was susceptible to some gyno.

"Estrogen Control"
Adex - .5mgs EOD (For first time users.)

"FOR GYNO REDUCTION"
Tamox - "...10mgs throughout the remainder of your cycle and into PCT".

Thanks again for the help and terrific information!
Rod

[WARMachine]

At 200mgs a week, there should not be a lot of circulating estrogen due to there only being 200mgs of Test circulating. That is pretty close to what the average 18-25 year old male produces.

But to answer your question, no, i wouldnt run either indefinitely.

Have you had ERSEs from your TRT dose?

[rod_davis]

At 200mgs a week, there should not be a lot of circulating estrogen due to there only being 200mgs of Test circulating. That is pretty close to what the average 18-25 year old male produces.

But to answer your question, no, i wouldnt run either indefinitely.

Have you had ERSEs from your TRT dose?

Yes I did have ESREs but not until I stiopped Letro. However I was doing the "Letro" protocol (.25mg daily), studied a lot more and realized the at 200mg test. I may not need any prevention at all. Around the same time I read your new thread and stopped the Letro entirely. It was a week or so after that where my right nip became sensitive, slightly raised and very small pea size inflammation. I jumped back on the Letro to stop and reverse (which does work for me) until my Adex and Tamox came in. It occurs to me as I write this now that maybe coming off the Letro as I did caused a rebound and ERSEs?
R

[WARMachine]

Haha thats exactly what i was going to ask.

Did you properly taper off with the Letro?

Most people do not take this into account, because when using Letro on cycle, people handle the rebound by supplementing with their PCT compounds.

[rod_davis]

Haha thats exactly what i was going to ask.

Did you properly taper off with the Letro?

Most people do not take this into account, because when using Letro on cycle, people handle the rebound by supplementing with their PCT compounds.

And that is exactly what I will be studying now. Thank you very much for the thought provoking thread. You have truly helped me to see this topic far differently then when I first read it.
Rod

[WARMachine]

No worries brutha!

Anytime!

-WAR

[ZoneBlitz]

2) Use an AI if you know you're gyno prone. Now Adex on cycle is the same basic concept as using Letro, the difference being that it doesn't inhibit as much estrogen as Letro. The problem here is finding out the hard way if you're Estrogen Related Side Effect Prone (i say estrogen related side effect, because there are more side effects than just gyno such as, lethargy, suppressed gains, suppressed sex drive, acne, bloating etc..). The only way i know how to see if youre ERSEP is the old fashioned way, run a cycle. No sides, no worries! Obviously if you don't follow the first set of rules (above) you'd be best advised to use an AI just in case.


3) If you do get ERSE's, then begin administering Nolvadex immediately! Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively will block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast, now the circulating estrogen can still be elevated, it just wont have the ability to bind to the receptors in the breast and cause breast growth, i.e. gyno! This making Nolvadex effective in blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. Or in the case of gyno beginning or already occurring, it will stop the symptoms from worsening.

One quick question for you War! I'm a total noob mind you, so, the fore mentioned question may very well be a dumb one!

If I'm already using Adex on cycle but still see ERSE's (Gyno, namely), do I then start Nolvadex and discontinue Adex? Or do I use both for the remainder of the cycle? Or would the appropriate dosage of Adex eliminate the likelyhood of ERSE's all together? (planning a 10 week, test-E at 350mgs)

btw, I'm not on cycle yet.

Thanks War.

EDIT: I don't have any reason to believe that I may be "ERSEP". I don't know my body fat % but I am quite lean and am fairly sure it's under 10%. I'd like to use the AI just in case as I am not interested in bloating, adding to much fat and of course, gyno. I understand that this may reduce the effectiveness of the test somewhat. I'm looking to add 10 - 15lbs of quality keepable muscle in 10 weeks time.

[rod_davis]

At 200mgs a week, there should not be a lot of circulating estrogen due to there only being 200mgs of Test circulating. That is pretty close to what the average 18-25 year old male produces.

But to answer your question, no, i wouldnt run either indefinitely.

Have you had ERSEs from your TRT dose?

War,
If I have stabilized my Test Cyp. and run off of the Letro (I feel so much better its amazing) it now occurs to me that at my cruise rate of 200mg Cyp EW, the proper thing to do would be to not take Adex as the Estrogen levels I am experiencing are in fact acceptable (though a blood test will confirm this) and that if in fact I am a bit gyno prone (which I am) that I should simply use Tamox in low doeses (.5mg E3d or E2d) and keep Adex at the ready should I see a flair up. Does this sound like a resonable concept?
Thanks again for the eye opener.
R

***Quick note after War's post of 6-11, I am using liquid and .5mg should have read .5ml with a conversion to mg. Just don't want anyone in the silent majority to do something wrong based on my typo***

[WARMachine]

One quick question for you War! I'm a total noob mind you, so, the fore mentioned question may very well be a dumb one!

If I'm already using Adex on cycle but still see ERSE's (Gyno, namely), do I then start Nolvadex and discontinue Adex? Or do I use both for the remainder of the cycle? Or would the appropriate dosage of Adex eliminate the likelyhood of ERSE's all together? (planning a 10 week, test-E at 350mgs)

If you are using Adex, and sides still persist, try increasing the dosage. However, if Gyno DEVELOPS, then discontinue the Adex and begin Nolva.

Now a few points
1) Dont use Nolva if a 19-Nor is included in your cycle.
2) Nolvadex reduces the effectiveness of Type II AIs. So dont run them together.
3) The most important point. There is a difference between sides beginning and sides actually being developed. Now if sides begin to appear, such as tingling, itchiness etc.. Its time to bump the dose. If a lump has already formed, then its there and the best course of action is to administer Nolva ASAP.

btw, I'm not on cycle yet.

Thanks War.

EDIT: I don't have any reason to believe that I may be "ERSEP". I don't know my body fat % but I am quite lean and am fairly sure it's under 10%. I'd like to use the AI just in case as I am not interested in bloating, adding to much fat and of course, gyno. I understand that this may reduce the effectiveness of the test somewhat. I'm looking to add 10 - 15lbs of quality keepable muscle in 10 weeks time.

Thats perfectly fine. Though most will suggest not running an AI until it is necessary.

BOLDS


Also, sorry for the delayed response.

[WARMachine]

War,
If I have stabilized my Test Cyp. and run off of the Letro (I feel so much better its amazing) it now occurs to me that at my cruise rate of 200mg Cyp EW, the proper thing to do would be to not take Adex as the Estrogen levels I am experiencing are in fact acceptable (though a blood test will confirm this) and that if in fact I am a bit gyno prone (which I am) that I should simply use Tamox in low doeses (.5mg E3d or E2d) and keep Adex at the ready should I see a flair up. Does this sound like a resonable concept?
Thanks again for the eye opener.
R

I would not run Nolva for a prolonged period of time. Also, .5mgs of Nolva, lol, i doubt is even possible to get to that small of a dose.

At 200mgs a week of Test, i dont think you will see any sides. Especially if your BF% and diet is in check.

If ERSEs do persist, a low dose of Adex around .25mgs EOD or E3D should handle it without a problem.

Keep me posted bro.

[ZoneBlitz]

Thanks a lot War.

I will most certainly follow your advise.

[songdog]

Been years since I did a cycle.I am sure glad 2 have all this info great job.But when I get ready 2 cycle.I will be askin what 2 do on all this stuff.THANX

[anticatabolic]

I always heard novla cant reverse gyno. I always hear different sides, ive actually never heard that letro hasnt but ive heard that novla cannot.

[wukillabee]

BOLDS


Also, sorry for the delayed response.

Maybe u can include info covering erse's, prevention, etc while taking a 19-nor on cycle. Didnt see much if any info on 19-nors and what to do if erse pop up. From my basic understanding if you get erse while on cycle say with test enth and deca , using a serm like nolva would only make matters worse. I also understand the best way is to take .5mg arimidex ed until erse's start to subside, then reduce to .25mg arimidex eod for rest of cycle. If that doesnt help, even going up to 1mg arimidex ed, then to drop the arimi and start letro at a low dose while working ur way up. These are the only 2 ways i know of how to battle erse's while using a 19nor on cycle from what i have read, not from experience yet.
Now, i know i get erse's on cycle with even just test, i know it sucks! My next cycle soon will be test enth and deca. I plan on running 50mg proviron ed to help out but not expecting the world from that. Should i take arimidex at .25mg eod or e3d from the start of my cycle knowing im gyno prone? Whats your advice on this WAR or anyone with exp in this situation? Thanks!

[WARMachine]

I will add on ERSEs will taking 19-Nors as asked. Ive been extremely busy lately, sorry for that, when i find the time, ill get to it.

Wukillabee:
If you know youre ERSE prone, and plan on using a 19-Nor, id suggest running Adex throughout the cycle. Nothing worse than gyno while using a 19-Nor. Itll be hard to differentiate what is the cause of the gyno.


-WAR

[wukillabee]

I will add on ERSEs will taking 19-Nors as asked. Ive been extremely busy lately, sorry for that, when i find the time, ill get to it.

Wukillabee:
If you know youre ERSE prone, and plan on using a 19-Nor, id suggest running Adex throughout the cycle. Nothing worse than gyno while using a 19-Nor. Itll be hard to differentiate what is the cause of the gyno.


-WAR

Thanks for the quick response bro! I was thinking to start l-dex (more affordable than pharm grade tabs but i do have some just in case) from day one of cycle at .25mg e3d. If i still get erse/gyno symptoms then to bump the dose to .5mg ed and go from there. If that doesnt do the trick even at 1mg ed then start my pharm grade tabs of letro and go from there. I also have pharm grade bromo and liquid prami on hand for prolactin problems too. Does this sound ok?
My exp with erse's: My first cycle was just test enth. Around week 6ish i got sensitive nips for a few days, then about the 5th day of itchy nips i noticed a super small pea size lump forming in each nip, i then started .5mg of l-dex ed and after only 7 days all erse's went away! I then stayed on .25mg l-dex rest of cycle just to be safe. Problem here though is the second i started l-dex even after lowering the dose, all gains in all areas came to a complete stop which sucked!
Second cycle was just test prop (some orals here and there). Around week 6ish again i got the sensitive nips. I then started 20mg pharm grade nolva tabs ed and again, after exactly 7 days all erse's went away. This time though i didnt take any serm/ai after symptoms went away and continued the cycle to 13 weeks with no more flare ups.
Now, knowing all this i was planning a cycle like this soon:
weeks 1-4 dbol 40-50mg ed
weeks 1-12 or 14 deca 450mg week
weeks 1-14 or 16 test 500 (250cyp+250enth) week
weeks 4-start of pct hcg 250iu week
day 1 until pct proviron 50mg ed
PCT: Starts 2 weeks after last shot
Week 1 clomid 100mg ed
Weeks 2-5 clomid 50mg ed
weeks 1-5 nolva 20mg ed
Now with this cycle in mind, what kind of erse prevention would u suggest bro? I know theres no ai in pct because im sure youll have me run an ai throughout the cycle til start of pct (probably l-dex). If i had to i might be able to get some liquid aromasin for pct, not gonna make an order just for some aromasin tabs, source wouldnt like that, hehe. What do you think bro?
Not sure on weeks of deca and test yet. Gonna see how i react to deca, if good then ill run deca 14 weeks, if bad then depending how bad i react will depend on how long but im sure at least 12 weeks. Of course test will be ran at least 2 weeks longer than the deca. Should i include proviron in the pct or will that not really make a difference for recovery? Ive used hcg in my last cycle leading up to pct and i recovered pretty dang quick so thats why im hard on using it this cycle and all for that matter! Last time i ran hcg i just did 1000iu week for 5 weeks leading up to start of pct. This time i want to run 250iu week starting from when im shut down til start of pct and see if that makes recovery any easier. Open to any and all suggestions, thanks!

[wukillabee]

Thanks for the quick response bro! I was thinking to start l-dex (more affordable than pharm grade tabs but i do have some just in case) from day one of cycle at .25mg e3d. If i still get erse/gyno symptoms then to bump the dose to .5mg ed and go from there. If that doesnt do the trick even at 1mg ed then start my pharm grade tabs of letro and go from there. I also have pharm grade bromo and liquid prami on hand for prolactin problems too. Does this sound ok?
My exp with erse's: My first cycle was just test enth. Around week 6ish i got sensitive nips for a few days, then about the 5th day of itchy nips i noticed a super small pea size lump forming in each nip, i then started .5mg of l-dex ed and after only 7 days all erse's went away! I then stayed on .25mg l-dex rest of cycle just to be safe. Problem here though is the second i started l-dex even after lowering the dose, all gains in all areas came to a complete stop which sucked!
Second cycle was just test prop (some orals here and there). Around week 6ish again i got the sensitive nips. I then started 20mg pharm grade nolva tabs ed and again, after exactly 7 days all erse's went away. This time though i didnt take any serm/ai after symptoms went away and continued the cycle to 13 weeks with no more flare ups.
Now, knowing all this i was planning a cycle like this soon:
weeks 1-4 dbol 40-50mg ed
weeks 1-12 or 14 deca 450mg week
weeks 1-14 or 16 test 500 (250cyp+250enth) week
weeks 4-start of pct hcg 250iu week
day 1 until pct proviron 50mg ed
PCT: Starts 2 weeks after last shot
Week 1 clomid 100mg ed
Weeks 2-5 clomid 50mg ed
weeks 1-5 nolva 20mg ed
Now with this cycle in mind, what kind of erse prevention would u suggest bro? I know theres no ai in pct because im sure youll have me run an ai throughout the cycle til start of pct (probably l-dex). If i had to i might be able to get some liquid aromasin for pct, not gonna make an order just for some aromasin tabs, source wouldnt like that, hehe. What do you think bro?
Not sure on weeks of deca and test yet. Gonna see how i react to deca, if good then ill run deca 14 weeks, if bad then depending how bad i react will depend on how long but im sure at least 12 weeks. Of course test will be ran at least 2 weeks longer than the deca. Should i include proviron in the pct or will that not really make a difference for recovery? Ive used hcg in my last cycle leading up to pct and i recovered pretty dang quick so thats why im hard on using it this cycle and all for that matter! Last time i ran hcg i just did 1000iu week for 5 weeks leading up to start of pct. This time i want to run 250iu week starting from when im shut down til start of pct and see if that makes recovery any easier. Open to any and all suggestions, thanks!

Bump for War

[Alderslodge]

AMAZING POST!
superbly informative! =D