Prostate

[zaggahamma]

Anyone have had diagnosis of cancer or close calls. What are the consequences of this condition if found early. I think Kale mentioned a close call that was ruled out. I would appreciate any knowledge first hand or somebody close to the situation and thanks a bunch.

[Spyke]

It would be nice to get Oasis and some other Hrt docs to weigh in on this. They all tend to gloss over the question as to weather test can cause prostate problems. My question is if one guy has natural test levels of 800 and another guy takes weekly injections to maintain levels of 800, assuming they are the same age, family history and other risk factors, would one have a higher risk of developing prostate problems?

Here is another thing. When I talked to Oasis for the first time, I told them I had a vasectomy a few years back. The rep said " You know alot of guys go on test after a vasectomy.". I asked him if there was a connection between the 2 and he said there are no studies but he thinks they are connected. When I asked my HRT doc about this he said alot of guys who are on hrt have vasectomies because alot of guys in general have vasectomies. There is no connection.

Most men who go on hrt are older (50+), and most men who get prostate problems are older. I wonder if this is the connection?

[zaggahamma]

I'm hoping that the age factor stays in my favor in this case. I found a good read on the internet(explorer) that is providing a lot of information. They did say that cancer MAY show a high PSA level....meaning that a low PSA does not rule cancer out.
That is so hard to believe that alot of men have vasectomies when there are so many more options of BC....I know I never had considered it.

Thanks for chiming in Spyke....how's the BP?

[Mobligator]

As a former prostate cancer patient I learned a lot while at the clinic in Atlanta, (RCOG), and much more from doing research on the internet. At RCOG the Doc in charge, Dr. Ctitz, put it this way when one of the patients asked him how someone could prevent getting PCa; his reply was, "don't get old". According to him, if a man is 60 y/o, his chances of getting PCa are 60 %, if 70/ y/o, chances are 70 %, and so on. Most men will get PCa if they live to be old enough but most die from something else without ever knowing they had PCa. They discoverd this by doing autopsies and/or prostate biopsies on older men who died of something other than cancer and a large percentage of them had prostate cancer.

[zaggahamma]

As a former prostate cancer patient I learned a lot while at the clinic in Atlanta, (RCOG), and much more from doing research on the internet. At RCOG the Doc in charge, Dr. Ctitz, put it this way when one of the patients asked him how someone could prevent getting PCa; his reply was, "don't get old". According to him, if a man is 60 y/o, his chances of getting PCa are 60 %, if 70/ y/o, chances are 70 %, and so on. Most men will get PCa if they live to be old enough but most die from something else without ever knowing they had PCa. They discoverd this by doing autopsies and/or prostate biopsies on older men who died of something other than cancer and a large percentage of them had prostate cancer.

Man I keep hearing the age scenario and it makes me a little at ease and thanks. I go in today for the biopsy. I'll keep the post updated.

[Homeguard]

....... I go in today for the biopsy. I'll keep the post updated.

Good luck man. I had a cancer scare (bowel), not a nice thing to go through. Its the not knowing that gets ya.

[zaggahamma]

thanks man....i appreciate it

[Ufa]

edit

[zaggahamma]

thanks ufa...thinkin bout puttin off procedure til seein my psa again..or having a free psa test as well...wha u think?

[Ufa]

edit

[zaggahamma]

yes...no..i appreciate all advice and i know i'll make my own mind up...I called them just now and the nurse was very helpful...my PSA is still only 0.4 on a scale of 0.0-4.0...it was 0.3 before HRT...but she reminded me that PSA doesn't rule out anything and wasn't the reason for the biopsy...that was ordered because the doc felt something with his finger...the said they would order a free PSA but that won't rule out anything either.....my only symptoms that sound like PC are the pains I have in my hips....but they say that could be just BPH...I always thought it was from having car accidents...I don't ever have pain w/ urinating or strength of flow, however...for quite a few years....gotta give em quite a few good squeezes and shakes when i'm done pissin and still drip a bit....i had brought that up a long time ago with a family doc...and he was like....ahhh, you don't want to get a finger up your ar$e,etc....I was prob in my late 20's then....man, i'm thinking of waiting

[Ufa]

edit

[zaggahamma]

All the information is leading me to waitin....afterall, i went to that uro because i couldn't get a script for cyp....after cryin a bit about gel rubbin on my kids, my last endo finally sent me a script for cyp....so maybe I'll cancel biopsy, have them order me a free PSA blood test and keep an eye on it...thanks again everyone...i'm going to start a new thread on my new testosterone levels I talke the nurse into reading to me...please check it out!

[Oasis]

Let see if I can help at all with this subject. Like mentioned earlier a PSA test doesn't rule out prostate cancer. It is a pretty good indicator but even high level on a psa test doesn't mean there is prostate cancer. As individuals get older the carcingens do increase and will show a higher psa level but may not be actual cancer there. The only way to eliminate prostate cancer being suspect would be to do the biopsy. There are some studies (I will look and post them) that low levels of testosterone can cause prostate cancer and that by supplementing testosterone can actually protect against prostate cancer. Hope this part helps and I will look for those studies and post soon.

As for the portion where someone spoke about vasectamy tie in with low testosterone levels. I guess I am speaking from patient histories. There is no documented proof from what I have seen that shows there is a tie in to causing low testosterone levels and after speaking to patients that have talked to their own physicians that were told that there is no connection. This is only from what is seen by patients that come to our clinic that have expressed that they have had a vasectamy and looking at the blood test results that probably 9 out of 10 that I have seen have had extremely low testosteorne levels and I am not speaking the 300s but in the low 100s to even double digits. So one has to make thier own assumption that there may be a tie in with this. We have not done any specific research on this subject and are unaware of anyone that has.

Hope this helped a little and I will look and post the studies regarding testosteone replacement and prostate soon.

Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Mngmt
1-877-548-3968
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

[zaggahamma]

Thanks Oasis, in your opinion, would you do a biopsy with out having high PSA levels...based on one DRE?
thanks again

[Ufa]

edit

[Oasis]

Well the question is would I go off of one doctor's recommendation. To be honest with you I can't really tell you for sure on that it really has to be something you personally feel comfortable with for your own peace of mind. I would probably repeat the psa test to be sure but knowing how the psa test fluctuates on a test it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion. Something that I forgot to mention was that having sex or any type of ejaculation even up to 72 hours before the test can cause and elevation in this psa test. (don't know if your doctor mentioned that) If not I would at least repeat the test making sure this abstinence is done for at least 72 hours.

Hope that helps some more.

Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Mgmt
1-877-548-3968
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

[zaggahamma]

The only thing is that my PSA isn't high...it's 0.3/0.4 on two tests...He wants biopsy from what he felt with his big ole finger....i've cancelled for today and have them sencing me a RX for a free PSA and I will ask my endo to do a DRE...i feel like a butt ho!

[Oasis]

Sorry about that I always have trouble after reading eveyone's post to make sure I am not repeating anything and then typing a response. In that case I would probably get another opinion and maybe even do the test again just to make sure.


Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Mngmt
1-877-548-3968
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

[zaggahamma]

All good and thanks for advice always

[Mobligator]

Diagnostic PSA vs Free PSA

If you want to get some good info on the "Free PSA", just insert those two words in a Google Search and you'll get 10,600,000 hits. The following site is on the first page and explains it very well.

http://psa-rising.com/detection/flowchart.htm

I would never get a biopsy without first having the Free PSA done unless my regular diagnostic PSA was either over 4.0 or it had doubled since the previous PSA; e.g. if it was 2.0 and it went up to 4.0. I knew a guy at the clinic where I was treated for prostate cancer who had a PSA of 1.5 and he had cancer but his previous PSA had doubled from 0.75 and this set off alarm bells with his Uro.

I think jpkman is worrying too much about having cancer with a PSA of 0.3 just because his MD felt something but I totally understand his concern since prostate cancer is a scary thing. It almost scared me to death! I was devastated, thought my life was over. However, if there was something large enough to feel on his prostate and it was maglignant, it would almost be certain to show up on his PSA, i.e. to say, it would be much higher than 0.3.
Quoting from a book given to me at RCOG, Radiotheraphy Clinics of Georgia,
"if there are 3 microscopic cancer cells that either escaped through the capsule of the prostate gland or were left behind during a radical prostatectomy, they would be enough to raise the PSA above 0.2". When the prostate is completely removed surgically, the PSA should be zero. So, if something was large enough to feel it would certainly have to be many more than 3 microscopic cells, probably in the millions and it only takes three to cause your PSA to go from zero to 0.2.

Another interesting fact to note is, even a very thorough biopsy can miss the cancer in the prostate. A very good biopsy will take at least six to nine samples in different areas of the prostate. Visualize a Tic Tat Toe game with nine squares over laid on the prostate and you take a sample biopsy out of each square. That would be one of the best methods of doing a biopsy. A very thin needle is used to collect the samples so you can see how a needle could very well miss if the cancer is located only in one spot. Regardless, always get a second opinion when it involves anything this serious.

[zaggahamma]

Awesome to hear Mobligator....I did pass on the procedure today and asked for a script for a free PSA....they are sending my the new script today so I'll be testing early next week...so did you actually beat the fuk out of the cancer...like in bye bye see ya!? Got to keep it monitored for reoccurance? Anything like that? And when you speak of the .2 and .3, .4...you say those are cancer microscopic cells? Does a healthy man normally have a zero for PSA? I've never asked that before....I just saw the range started at 0.0 and went to 4.0?
thanks as always mobligator and for the extra time with your posts...MUCH APPRECIATED

[Spyke]

I am 34 and just had a psa before starting hrt. mine was .2 and I guess thats good. What I am learning from all this is to get your blood tested every 6 months just to be safe. I think I will get a total testosterone, cbc, and psa every 6 months. That way I will know of any changes before they become a problem.

Thats probably overkill and once a year would be ok.

[zaggahamma]

I am 34 and just had a psa before starting hrt. mine was .2 and I guess thats good. What I am learning from all this is to get your blood tested every 6 months just to be safe. I think I will get a total testosterone, cbc, and psa every 6 months. That way I will know of any changes before they become a problem.

Thats probably overkill and once a year would be ok.

Spyke, what's cbc?

[Spyke]

http://www.medicinenet.com/complete_...nt/article.htm

[Oasis]

Spyke,

I would maybe add a free testosterone, estradiol, and dht to that follow up blood work but just an opinion. Also every six months should be good. I think a good way to do a blood check is if you are just starting to get checked in 3 months and then every six months after that.

[Mobligator]

jpkman you asked; Does a healthy man normally have a zero for PSA?
That's a good question, one I've never thought about or heard the answer to.
But I suppose it's possible for a young healthy man, with the emphasis on "young" to have zero in the blood stream. Usually younger men aren't tested, i.e. men say in their 20's but the Prostate-specific antigen, PSA has it's function and is present in every man.
Prostate-specific antigen (PSA) is a protein produced by normal prostate cells. This enzyme participates in the dissolution of the seminal fluid coagulum and plays an important role in fertility. The highest amounts of PSA are found in the seminal fluid; some PSA escapes the prostate and can be found in the blood serum. This serum component has been used to track the response to therapy in men with prostate cancer.
If a man has his prostate removed his PSA should eventually go down to zero. If it doesn't he is most likely in trouble. That's a good indicator there were microscopic cancer cells that escaped either before or during surgery.
I don't know if I beat it yet but I have to have a PSA done every six months for the rest of my life. (so they say) I think if I get by for five years I'll be okay and hey, thats a long time when you're almost 73 y/o.
I'm sure you have nothing to worry about with your PSA and at your age. I was in my prime when I was about 35-37 as for lifting weights and I was could still bench press around 300 when I was 62. (with a little help from Test, et al.) Now I'm running on empty! BTW, your Free Test. was pretty good before you went on HRT. That's the most important figure. Free Test. is the only thing that does the work in your cells. DHT is not good for the prostate but it helps with your libido. It's suspected that DHT is the cause for BPH. Also of interest, there is some correlation with testosterone and PSA but I'm not sure exactly what it is or how it works biologically. I know if I take any exogenous Test. my PSA will go up & vice versa but I've never found an MD who could explain the relationship to me.
Also in regards to test c and test e, the half life of test c is 8 days and test e 9 days. After 9 days you still have half of it left in your system, after 18 days you have one fourth of it left, etc. A 100 mg shot is the "normal maintenance" dosage for one week but like someone else already told you, it'd be better to wait about 18 days before having it tested. That should keep your level in the ball park. Personally I preferred "test c" over the enanthate for getting good results. Take care.

[zaggahamma]

Thanks as always...and props to you...I can't even do 300 on the bench now....only did one time when i was a young grasshopper jacked up on anadrol/test....almost 20 years ago...
thanks again for all your help and info
take care, too

[Kale]

Some interesting reading for you dudes



Estrogen’s Dirty Little Secret
by TC



As it stands now, sooner or later, your prostate will start to swell up like the dinner rolls momma’s baking in the oven. At best, this unwanted hypertrophy will just obstruct urine flow. At worst, it’ll develop into cancer.

In North America at least, benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) is pretty much inevitable, just like death, taxes, or the birth of some new nauseating boy band. Hell, if a pathologist autopsies just about anybody over the age of 50 — who died of something unrelated to prostate cancer — he’ll most likely find BPH or prostate cancer.

Maybe they’ll be able to treat yours, and maybe they won’t. Either way, the options aren’t pretty. Maybe you’ll be able to just take drugs that make urination easier. Of course, if there’s cancer, you may have surgery and that surgery may leave you impotent. Or, maybe your choice of treatment will just be chemical castration.

Given the prevalence of steroid use and androgen manipulation in general, however, BPH is becoming an issue even with some 25 to 30-year olds.

The medical community is understandably upset, and that’s why they’ve declared war on Testosterone and his pesky little brother, DHT. The latter has been directly implicated in BPH, and that’s one of the reasons the medical community doesn’t like steroids, prohormones, Tribex 500, and even Testosterone itself.

Their reasoning is that you’re better off being a eunuch than a stud who has to get up to pee every half-hour.

The trouble is, I think they’re wrong. I think they’re pointing the finger at the wrong culprit. I think it’s Testosterone’s wicked sister, estrogen, that’s setting up Testosterone to take the fall.


First, a Few Words about One of Our Favorite Glands

The prostate is about the size of a chestnut — not all that big for such a potentially troublesome gland. One end is located just below the neck of the bladder and it kind of wraps around the beginning of the urethra (that’s why any enlargement impedes urine flow). The other end rests on the rectum, which is why the doctor sticks his finger up your ass during your annual physical.

A healthy prostate has an androgen-sensitive epithelium that wraps around a core of fibrous tissue, or stroma. Sex hormones typically traverse this epithelium and bind to receptor sites. Regulator genes are then activated and transcription factors turn on, causing the formation of new proteins (growth).

However, some of these genes might be proto-oncogenes (genes that code for cancer) and they can be transformed into cancer-initiating oncogenes.

The normal human male usually experiences two distinct peaks of prostate growth. The first occurs at puberty — right around the same time that the Testosterone starts flowing. The second occurs at about the age of 50 when there’s an increase in the ratio of estrogen to androgen.


Some Compelling Evidence

While it’s true that Testosterone and DHT definitely play a part in prostate growth, there’s more to the picture than meets the eye.

One of the largest studies ever done on men and BPH shows a strong association between BPH and serum estradiol levels.(5) Furthermore, the study reveals that the risk is confined to men who have low levels of Testosterone!

In fact, every study to date is in agreement that the concentration of Testosterone (the precursor of DHT) in the prostate of males suffering from BPH is low or normal.(1,10,11)

And, as shown in a study reported here in Testosterone a few months back, subjecting hypogonadal BPH patients to Testosterone replacement therapy resulted in prostate shrinkage!

What’s going on here?


Some Explanations

Estrogen

Don’t get me wrong, estrogen is vital to the male, but once levels skyrocket through over-exposure to the real stuff, or constant exposure to phytoestrogens (plant chemicals that resemble human estrogen) or xenoestrogens (environmental chemicals that resemble estrogen), things go awry. The result can be gynecomastia (excess male breast tissue), additional fat storage, decrease in libido, uncontrollable weeping whenever Beaches is on, or, as this article purports, prostate enlargement.

About 75-90% of estrogen in young men occurs in fatty tissue.(4) Testosterone is "aromatized" to estrogen and androstenedione is aromatized to estrone. Only between 10 and 25% is made directly in the testes.

Ah, if only it stayed that way! Trouble is, as we get older, the E/A ratio increases, presumably due to greater estrogen production, unchanged or decreased androgen production, or an increase in the amount of enzyme that changes Testosterone to Estrogen.

This ratio also increases sometimes when we start to manipulate our Testosterone levels, either through T replacement or the use of certain aromatizeable steroids. And, we can’t forget the estrogen mimickers in the environment, either.

The prostate itself obtains estrogens, through aromatase activity within its own tissues, and through outside sources. When levels get too high, though, BPH happens. Nodules start to occur in the periurethral transition zone (which signals the onset of BPH), which is the most estrogen-responsive part of the prostate. And, this proliferation of nodules and increased tissue growth is strongly associated with higher plasma estrogen (E2) and higher urinary estrogen secretion, but it’s not associated with T levels.(9)

SHBG

Sex hormone binding globulin is regarded as one of man’s big bugaboos.

Here’s why: In normal men, only about 2% of our Testosterone is "free," or unbound to carrier proteins. That means that presumably, only 2% is free to be ferried into cells to make muscle grow (among other things). About 54% is bound to albumin and other proteins, and 44% is bound to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, or SHBG, which is synthesized by the liver.

For years, strength athletes have been trying to figure out how to reduce the amount of SHBG so that more free Testosterone was available for all the good stuff, like muscle growth.

However, as studies that have been largely ignored by the strength community have revealed, it seems that we might all be full of hooey.

For one thing, it now seems that red blood cells function as carriers of sex hormones in the blood stream, and in fact may be responsible for as much as 15% of sex hormone delivery to target tissues.(7) What happens is that dissociation of this protein-bound hormone can occur within a capillary bed, meaning that it’s not just the "free stuff" that’s working.

The amount of hormone that can be carried depends on capillary transit time, half time of dissociation, amount of hormone bound to various carrier proteins, and permeability of cell membrane.

That means that these binding proteins in circulation act as kind of a steroid bank. In fact, it’s a lot like how hemoglobin regulates the amount of oxygen in each tissue.

(This may be why the free T levels of strength athletes always seem to come up quite low on blood tests. Obviously, they’re functioning just fine, but judging by their levels of free T, you’d think they were Girl Scouts.)

How does this tie with estrogen and prostate cancer? I’m glad you asked, Bunky. SHBG synthesis (as well as albumin) is regulated by estrogen/androgen balance, and SHBG has been shown to exist in a number of human tissues, including the testis and epididymis. One of SHBG’s traits is that it can increase the ease with which steroids penetrate the cell. It also facilitates steroid binding to the cell. In short, SHBG acts as an additional androgen receptor.(3)

Here’s the hypothesis formulated by Wells Farnsworth, one of the world’s leading prostate researchers:

"With advancing age, there is a decline in androgen secretion and a rise in circulating estrogen. This results in an increase in SHBG to bind to receptors in the prostatic stroma. Then, steroid (Estrogen, androgen) is bound to the SHBG receptor complex. If the steroid so bound is estradiol or an aromatizable precursor thereof, both stromal proliferation, exhibited as BPH, and the synthesis of IGF-1 will occur.

In sum, it may be that estrogen, mediated by SHBG, sets the pace for prostatic growth and function."

Prolactin

Prolactin is a hormone most commonly associated with the production of mother’s milk and possibly breast growth, while its role in males has been considered to be hazy at best. However, recent research reveals that prolactin is a heavy-duty hormone, possibly affecting more physiological processes than all other pituitary hormones combined.(2) And it’s now known to be produced at many sites outside the pituitary, including the prostate.

As far as the prostate is concerned, prolactin greatly increases the sensitivity of prostate tissue to androgen. Furthermore, it enhances the permeability of the prostate to Testosterone.

And guess what stimulates prolactin secretion? Estrogen.


A Few Words about DHT

While DHT is definitely involved in prostate growth, its role may be overstated. A researcher named Krieg found that the DHT level of subjects with normal prostates was much higher in prostatic epithelium than it was in prostatic stroma (the fibrous tissue inside the prostate). In fact, the amount of DHT in the epithelium of these healthy patients was much higher than it was in either the epithelium or stroma of patients between 50 and 95 years of age who suffered from BPH.(8)

In addition, the amount of epithelial DHT in both normal patients and those with BPH decreased significantly with age!

However, estrogen (E1 and E2) levels in both normal and BPH patients went up significantly with age.

What might be happening is that the amount of androgen receptors (DHT or otherwise) in the human prostate is increased by exposure to estrogen and that taking an anti-estrogen might keep the number of receptors in the prostate low, thus preventing androgen binding, transcription, and the resultant growth.


Let’s Wrap it Up

To summarize, estrogen levels, or the estrogen/androgen ratio rises with age, either because of an increase in the amount of estrogen itself; an increase in the production of the enzyme that turns T into E; or decreased production of Testosterone.

This ratio may also change from the use of certain steroids or pro-hormone supplements (thus leading to an increase in estrogen) and exposure to environmental estrogens.

Estrogen itself helps mediate prostate growth, but it’s also responsible for increasing levels of prolactin, which allows estrogen to get into the prostate more easily.

Estrogen also helps regulate the production of SHBG and albumin, which acts as carrier proteins for E on its journey to the prostate. Furthermore, these same binding proteins might also serve as additional estrogen receptor sites — or estrogen parking spaces — in the prostate.

Given this evidence, it seems that every living male might at some point wish to plan his prostate-protection strategy. Since I dabble in manipulating my own Testosterone levels, estrogen’s effects on the prostate are definitely a concern.

I’ve been taking 1 mg of the DHT-blocker finasteride every day for the last 7 years, but I might have been better off taking an anti-estrogen, had one been available to me. (Of course, finasteride still seems to be an effective drug in preventing hair loss, and I’ll continue to take it for that reason, at least until the new drug, dutasteride, is approved.)

Currently, the drugs of choice for blocking estrogen are probably Arimidex or clomiphene, both prescription drugs, but doctors are wary about prescribing them to otherwise-healthy individuals. As such, I have very high hopes for the new estrogen blocker we’re working on and plan on making it part of my daily pro-health cornucopia of pills.

I, for one, am going to take my dinner roll out of the oven before it starts to spill over the pan, if you catch my drift.
What About Saw Palmetto?

For years, most of us in either the life extensionist camp or the physique enhancement camp have touted saw palmetto extract as a weapon against prostate growth. Saw palmetto either blocked DHT from binding to receptor sites, or it somehow limited 5-alpha-reductase (the enzyme responsible for turning T into E) activity.

Trouble is, the largest review of the subject ever undertaken found that neither of the mechanisms "has ever been demonstrated convincingly to be operative in vivo at therapeutic doses."(6)

What they did find, however, was that the substance had some value in treating patients with lower urinary tract symptoms that suggested prostatic obstruction. That means that saw palmetto might just allow men with BPH to pee easier, while not directly affecting the prostate’s size in any way.

Even if saw palmetto is, at some point, vindicated, it doesn’t address what may turn out to be the true problem — estrogen.


References

1. Albert, J, et al., Prostate Concentrations of endogenous androgens by radioimmunoassay. J Steroid Biochem 7:301 (1976).

2. Ben-Jonathan, N., et al., Extra-pituitary prolactin distribution, regulation, functions, and clinical aspects. Endroc Rev 17:639-669 (1996)

3. Farnsworth, Wells E., Roles of Estrogen and SHBG in Prostate Physiology. The Prostate, 28:17-23 (1996)

4. Farnsworth, Wells E., Estrogen in the Etiopathogenesis of BPH. The Prostate, 41:263-274 (1999)

5. Gann, et al., A propective study of plasma hormone levels, nonhormonal factors, and development of BPH. Prostate 26:40-49 (1995)

6. Goepel, et al., Saw palmetto extracts potently and noncompetitively inhibit human a-adrenoceptors in vitro. Prostate, 38:208-215 (1999).

7. Koefoed, P., Brahm, J., The permeability of the human red cell membrane to steroid sex hormones. Biochim Biophys Acta. 1195:55-62 (1994).

8. Krieg, et al., Effect of aging on the endogenous level of 5-alpha-dihydrotesosterone, Testosterone, estradiol, and estrone in epithelium and stroma of normal and hyperplastic human prostate. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 77:375-381 (1993).

9. Seppult, U., Correlation among prostate stroma, estrogen levels and urinary estrogen secretion in patients with benign prostatic hypertrophy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 47:1230-1235 (1978).

10. Sitteri, PK, Wilson, JD, DHT in Prostatic Hypetrophy. J Clin Invest, 49:1737 (1970).

11. Wilson, JD, The intranuclear metabolism of Testosterone in the accessory organs of reproduction. Recent Prog Horm Res 26: 309 (1970)

© 1998 — 2001 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

[zaggahamma]

EXCELLENT read, Kale, thanks

[Mighty Joe]

Kale,

Thanks for posting that for us "OLD" dudes.

I got a PM headed your way bro.

MJ

[Mobligator]

Kale, A very excellent summary of the biological mechanisms involved with our body’s utilization of testosterone, etc. I’ve read some articles on aromatization of T. to E. and your hypothesis on estrogen as being the culprit in BPH would appear to fit in with my situation better than the commonly held theories of DHT. Estrogen is one test they never ran on me. I had taken exogenous testosterone for approximately 13 years before I got the cancer and suffered with BPH for as many if not more. I tried Proscar, for two reason actually, one to prevent the conversion of T to DHT and to shrink the prostate (which actually takes years to make any significant difference, if any) and to see if it kept my PSA lower post PCa treatment. It didn’t work! The only thing now that seems to keep my PSA down is to keep my testosterone level down. I’m now taking Flomax and Hytrin to relieve the urination problems which doesn’t quite make any sense either, since my prostate has been charcoaled and shrunk to a pea size from all the radiation. I think both drugs, esp. the Flomax, exerts its influence more on the bladder and urinary tract. I think this BPH causing urinary problems is being overplayed too. There are many men with prostates much larger than mine without any urinary problems. As you already know the prostate is loaded with androgen receptors and converts much of the T. to DHT but I noticed when taking Proscar my libido was much lower. Maybe its true what they say about bald men being more potent.
One question; Do you know of any direct relationship to the levels of testosterone to PSA levels? I know when they put a man on the hormone ablation treatment his PSA will virtually fall to zero. (Actually the lowest mine ever went was <0.008) Being so low I thought maybe I’d try taking a small dose of Test e, i.e. 75-80mg but 6 months later, wham, my PSA jumped up to 0.69. As a side note for anyone interested, my MD/Oncologist, told me that the machines they use to run PSA’s are not accurate under nadir 0.2ng/ml, which is the point most Oncologists use as a cure rate. Some use 0.5 but that’s pushing the button a little high. Cheers everybody and don’t worry to much about PCa from taking designer drugs,e.g. Test., it hasn’t been proven that there is any cause/effect relationship. But once a man does have it, taking Test. is like throwing gasoline on a fire.

[Mobligator]

Here's a little poem that was written by John Lange from Colorada, while staying at Hope Lodge in Atlanta, where we were both patients being treated for prostate cancer. Everyone thought it was really cute since we all were going through the same experiences. Hope ya'll enjoy.

THE PSA BLUES

Then the doctor said hey, you’ve got a high PSA.
If we don’t catch it now, you’ll die of cancer some day.
You’ve got to move fast, you’ve got to move quick,
Let’s cut out that cancer, before you get sick.

Hold on just a sec, I said to the doc
My head was still reeling, my brain was in shock.
Just where is this prostate, and what does it do?
Just what am I losing, if I give it to you?

“It’s this little old blob that holds back your pee,”
He said with a shrug, as he handed to me
The pump that would help me pump up my member.
“You’ll be back in the saddle as soon as September.”

“The girls will all love your shiny new thing.
You’ll stay up for hours, you’ll make them all sing.”
No thanks, I said as I ran for the door.
I’ll try something else. There’s gotta be more.

I read all the books, I stayed up for nights
And that’s how I heard of old Dr. Critz.
The doctors and tekkies at R C O G.
Were said to be skillful and kind as could be.

With a sprinkling of seeds made from hot iodine
In a couple of weeks I’d be doing just fine.
No pump and no diapers, just a few weeks of rays
That would burn up the cancer over thirty-five days.

The choice was so clear like a gift from old Santa.
And that’s how I came to be here in Atlanta.
And the folks at Hope Lodge are the best of the best.
That’s the end of my story, you know all the rest.

[zaggahamma]

LOL...Mobligator....It's great you had/have some nice support. On a more serious note, sorry...since I'm not QUITE through the woods, yet...What kind of symptoms did you get.....Like I said in a previous thread that I have FOR SOME TIME...after urinating..had to squeeze and shake a little extra more common for like MY DAD or something...and I had mentioned it to a family doctor years ago and he just laughed it off and said not to worry....but other than that like I have pains in hips/upper thighs that I used to think was due to several auto accidents and since my first endo did a DRE and said my little walnut was nice and smooth and small I felt assured, but now with the URO feeling something and they are more qualified...I just wondered what you thought of those symptoms...thanks again

[Ufa]

?????????

[Kale]

Kale, A very excellent summary of the biological mechanisms involved with our body’s utilization of testosterone, etc. I’ve read some articles on aromatization of T. to E. and your hypothesis on estrogen as being the culprit in BPH would appear to fit in with my situation better than the commonly held theories of DHT. Estrogen is one test they never ran on me. I had taken exogenous testosterone for approximately 13 years before I got the cancer and suffered with BPH for as many if not more. I tried Proscar, for two reason actually, one to prevent the conversion of T to DHT and to shrink the prostate (which actually takes years to make any significant difference, if any) and to see if it kept my PSA lower post PCa treatment. It didn’t work! The only thing now that seems to keep my PSA down is to keep my testosterone level down. I’m now taking Flomax and Hytrin to relieve the urination problems which doesn’t quite make any sense either, since my prostate has been charcoaled and shrunk to a pea size from all the radiation. I think both drugs, esp. the Flomax, exerts its influence more on the bladder and urinary tract. I think this BPH causing urinary problems is being overplayed too. There are many men with prostates much larger than mine without any urinary problems. As you already know the prostate is loaded with androgen receptors and converts much of the T. to DHT but I noticed when taking Proscar my libido was much lower. Maybe its true what they say about bald men being more potent.
One question; Do you know of any direct relationship to the levels of testosterone to PSA levels? I know when they put a man on the hormone ablation treatment his PSA will virtually fall to zero. (Actually the lowest mine ever went was <0.008) Being so low I thought maybe I’d try taking a small dose of Test e, i.e. 75-80mg but 6 months later, wham, my PSA jumped up to 0.69. As a side note for anyone interested, my MD/Oncologist, told me that the machines they use to run PSA’s are not accurate under nadir 0.2ng/ml, which is the point most Oncologists use as a cure rate. Some use 0.5 but that’s pushing the button a little high. Cheers everybody and don’t worry to much about PCa from taking designer drugs,e.g. Test., it hasn’t been proven that there is any cause/effect relationship. But once a man does have it, taking Test. is like throwing gasoline on a fire.

I can only speak from personal experience. I dont have Prostate Cancer but I do have BPH. I have been on HRT and done one cycle since I was diagnosed and my PSA levels were the same until I went on Proscar, my PSA levels have dropped a bit since then, but Test has made no difference to my PSA levels at all.

[zaggahamma]

Kale, you ever have any of the symptoms I was talking about....hip area pains?

[Mobligator]

I can only speak from personal experience. I dont have Prostate Cancer but I do have BPH. I have been on HRT and done one cycle since I was diagnosed and my PSA levels were the same until I went on Proscar, my PSA levels have dropped a bit since then, but Test has made no difference to my PSA levels at all.

Thanks for the reply Kale. I have been entertaining the hypothesis that perhaps this cause/effect relationship might be unique to me since I had PCa or God forbid that there may still be some residue of Ca left. One PCA cell produces 10 times more PSA than one normal prostate cell. Keep up the good work suppying informative info for all the members, its obvious you are very knowledgeable and presumably do much research.

[zaggahamma]

MO-gator..u ever have the hip pains?

[Mobligator]

LOL...Mobligator....It's great you had/have some nice support. On a more serious note, sorry...since I'm not QUITE through the woods, yet...What kind of symptoms did you get.....Like I said in a previous thread that I have FOR SOME TIME...after urinating..had to squeeze and shake a little extra more common for like MY DAD or something...and I had mentioned it to a family doctor years ago and he just laughed it off and said not to worry....but other than that like I have pains in hips/upper thighs that I used to think was due to several auto accidents and since my first endo did a DRE and said my little walnut was nice and smooth and small I felt assured, but now with the URO feeling something and they are more qualified...I just wondered what you thought of those symptoms...thanks again

Glad you liked the poem. The guy who wrote it was actually a writer by profession. Boggles my mind how people come up with stuff like that.
I honestly don't believe the pains in your hips have anything to do with your prostate. Then again I'm not a MD but I've never encountered anyone with PCa who had symptoms of hip pains. Usually the symptoms are painless with PCa which is why so many people used to go undiagnosed before they started using the marker of PSA, i.e. prior to circa 1987. I personally think and again this is just my opinion, that if there was anything large enough on your prosate to be felt it would be reflected in your PSA. It only takes 3 microscopic cancer cells in your prostate or blood stream to raised your PSA. PCa cells produce 10 times more PSA than normal cells.Even a benign tumor on your prostate will raise the PSA and so will BPH. Go with the Free PSA first but until that shows some reason for concern, I'd just sit back, relax, have a drink of nice red wine and not worry. Even if the worst senario came true and you do at sometime develop PCa, remember it is a very slow growing type of cancer and you'll have plenty of time to have it treated. I hesitate to say that your Euro might be trying to cover his ass by wanting you to have more tests or to generate more $ for someone, or if he's genuinely trying to triage you as competantly as possible but regardless, "always get a second opinion" . Dr. Critz, the founder of RCOG in Atlanta would always tell us, "Never trust the medical profession"! It's true too, you wouldn't believe some of the tales the patients at RCOG had to tell.
When I was young we had a saying, that "if you shook it more than twice you were playing with it". LOL Who makes up all this s--t! When I was in H.S. we didn't even have electric adding machines. No TV either. No Test! But I don't think an extra shake or two or a couple squeezes is uncommon. Better than walking out of the rest room with wet pants. Wait until you develop BPH. And you will if you live long enough and take enough juice. Flomax is great stuff for that tho. Hang in there.