Update: Got Bloodwork back

[Spyke]

Well I have been on HRT now for 9 weeks. I got my blood tests done last week. Some tests were not done the first time. Also different labs so the scales are different. First set of numbers is the first test.

total testosterone
153 241-827
647 400-1080

free test
6.4 8.7-25.1
2.7 1.6-2.9

bioavailable test
??????
495.7 130.5-681.7

dihydrotestosterone
???
858.6 155.0-553.0 HIGH

DHEA
???
204 120-520

everything else like the cbc came back normal. Estrogen test was not back yet. Not sure what the high dihydrotest means.......

Also this is before I started hcg

[zaggahamma]

spyke, wasn't this on test cyp at like 150mg or 200mg EW? And how was the BP? I guess when you say your CBC was normal, that includes stuff like HDL, LDL, and PSA? And last but not least, You happy/feeling good with where your at and compared to pre HRT?

[Oasis]

Spyke,

Do you know if they tested LH levels on this test? This test will be beneficial for the use of hcg. Once you get all the results send me a PM and I will have our doctor review them as well for that second opinion factor if you want.


Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Mngmt
1-877-548-3968
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

[Spyke]

spyke, wasn't this on test cyp at like 150mg or 200mg EW? And how was the BP? I guess when you say your CBC was normal, that includes stuff like HDL, LDL, and PSA? And last but not least, You happy/feeling good with where your at and compared to pre HRT?

Just took the BP for you! 128/73 so that looks good. I am on 150mg of cyp per week. Started hcg after the blood tests. CBC only includes white, red blood counts and some other blood related things. I guess it tells docs alot abot your overall health.

He also did a comprehensive metabolic panel and electrolyte panel. All was normal.

I feel better then before. Sometimes I would sleep 11-12 hours and still be tired all day. Now all I need is 8 hours and I am good to go! Also the sex drive really sucked before, but I guess I got use to it and it seemed normal. I think there was a time when I would only go at it with the wife once a month on average. Now it is every other day. I could probably go more but the kids/family dont always allow it. LOL. Alot stronger in the gym too. Recovery time is alot less.

This DHT thing has me a little concerned. Basically from what I read, it can cause male pattern baldness to speed up and can increase the chances of prostate issues down the road. From what I read those anti hairloss pills basically stop your body fron converting test to dht. So I will see what the doc says, but that looks like an option.

[zaggahamma]

glad all is well man....i'm gonna do a little research on the dihydrotestosterone(dht) thing

[UpstateNY]

Glad to hear you are feeling better!!! I had great improvements withe quality of my life as well. Keep us posted and I will do the same. Check out my posts as they may be of some help to you. I just had my bloodwork done today after 6 wks. on Test. E. since the Androgel wasn't helping with the numbers portion. I am hoping that either taking my shots more frequently or perhaps a larger dose will help more and with the few symptoms I have that I don't like. As the next day for a shot approaches, I notice my prior symptoms begin to return. If I stretch it out past 7 days, they are very noticable. In fact, I get minor facial acne as well. Very small pimples on my chin and cheek bone area. Take shot and gone. I guess my body is ass backwards as usual! Dr apt is Friday and plan to discuss my results, the frequency, dose and HCG. I've noticed some minor testicular atrophy and slightly lessened semminal output as well as it appearing more opaque than white. I'd rather ask early about anything that my woman or I notice than to wait! It's my body and my life! I don't wait with my car or my bike so why would I with this?!! Far more critical. Keep it in perspective.

[bignatt]

If you stop dht conversion you want to stop it just in your scalp not in your whole body it contributes to having solid muscles

[Spyke]

I will see about getting some shampoo.

Thanks

[Mobligator]

From Reform Magazine

A considerable chunk of my workday is always spent answering people's questions about prohormones and steroids. Of course, one of the biggest concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related side effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It seems that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil androgen byproduct that serves no purpose in the body but to make our prostates blow up and our hair fall out.
The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those good guy/bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in the body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will help you decide just which group you belong to.

Testosterone Is A Prohormone?

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals—practically everything but muscle—the active androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).
5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.
This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone - it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.
A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic/body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.

Testosterone Is The Active Androgen In Muscle

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).
So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a, 17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.
It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system that lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress—not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.
I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What's going on here? We know it couldn't be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti-Estrogen Effects Of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way—by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification-bitch tits.
How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.
Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.
Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus/pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, Estrogen, And The Prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.
The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.
The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant levels of high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).
Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen/androgen ratio—a condition common in older men—is highly correlated to the development of BPH.
Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. While, aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by addition of an aromatase inhibitor.
So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH. Or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.
None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body.

"DHT can actually be used to treat benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH)"

As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH. The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy.

Conclusion

Unfortunately, people seem to have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, black or white with absolutely no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone's bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. Now that you have all the necessary facts you can ultimately see, this view is far from the truth.
In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that don't really need it should be highly reconsidered. After reading this I hope you'll agree with me or at least keep an open mind on this sensitive subject. In other words, why don't you just give DHT a break.

[davidboy]

has anybody tryed Proscar guys?

[zaggahamma]

Nice read Mobli....took me a while to read it...kept having to rewind...
I hear HGH is good for that(not having to rewind when reading).

[Mobligator]

has anybody tryed Proscar guys?

Yes, I have for BPH and it didn't work.

Please read the last section in my previous post; "DHT, Estrogen, And The Prostate". There's a new hyposthesis, mentioned by another member, Kale in the section on Prostate, that Estrogen might be the culprit in BPH and not DHT. This hyposthesis is being confirmed again in the section of my previous post mentioned above, "DHT, Estrogen, And the Prostate".

[Kale]

Thats a great article. I have been on Proscar and Hytrin for six months but I havnt had a follow up test as yet to see if the Prostate is shrinking. I have BPH. Now my symptoms have subsisded to a great degree although not completely. This is such a confusing area. There are some many differing opinions on causes and treatments its hard to know who to believe.

[Mobligator]

Thats a great article. I have been on Proscar and Hytrin for six months but I havnt had a follow up test as yet to see if the Prostate is shrinking. I have BPH. Now my symptoms have subsisded to a great degree although not completely. This is such a confusing area. There are some many differing opinions on causes and treatments its hard to know who to believe.

I also take Hytrin and occasionally alternate with some Flomax. I think you will find the Hytrin is relieving your "symptoms" of BPH. If you have insurance,(I don't except for VA) I think you would like Flomax better. They're advertising a new drug on TV called Avodart that I think works the same as Flomax but being new it probably costs more. Cardura is another older drug that they prescribed a lot at the clinic I went to in Atlanta. I haven't read much about Proscar lately but I believe it takes quite some time for it to shrink the prostate, much longer than 6 months. Proscar only acts as a 5-AR inhibitor and I'm not sure you want to inhibit your DHT if that isn't what causes the BPH.
I've had my prostate radiated and hopefully burnt to a crisp like charcoal and the last time I had it checked it was shrunken to a very small size but I still have the urination problems if I don't take the Hytrin or Flomax. Ol Dr. Critz at RCOG gave the best advice, "Don't trust the medical profession"! Kale, did you read the poem I posted under Prostate? Good for a chuckle.