Oh darn....What if I mess up my HRT?

[Spyke]

If someone who is on weelky injections of test was to "mess up" and say double their weekly dosage from 150mg to 300mg for 10-12 weeks, what kind of effects would this have on lean muscle during a bulking cycle for a first timer?

Would it be better if he messed up and took arimidex .5 mg every day?

What would he need to do when he catches his mistake at the end? Just go back to normal dosage of test. Would any pct be needed?

[balin]

A mess up like that could cause some muscle gain. Depends on the individual, how they train and eat. No pct would be needed as you would be inhibiting your own test production as soon as you went back on hrt. .5mg of arimidex a day would be a huge overkill for me at that T dosage. At twice that Test dosage I can use .5mg every 3rd day and still have an E2 level of less then 15.

[zaggahamma]

If someone who is on weelky injections of test was to "mess up" and say double their weekly dosage from 150mg to 300mg for 10-12 weeks, what kind of effects would this have on lean muscle during a bulking cycle for a first timer?

Would it be better if he messed up and took arimidex .5 mg every day?

What would he need to do when he catches his mistake at the end? Just go back to normal dosage of test. Would any pct be needed?

would be an easy mistake

[Ufa]

Yea, I made that mistake myself.

Just taper back down.

[Spyke]

I take .5mg arimidex every 3 days too. Sounds SO easy for us HRT guys. Since we don't have to worry about being shut down and loosing our gains.

Maybe I will put this on the back burner for a while though... During the long winters I have more time to lift. I think during this I would try to lift 2 times a day like an insane mother.

One thing that has always scared me about doing this is cardiac hypertrophy. Would that be an issue with this kind of mess up?

[zaggahamma]

I take .5mg arimidex every 3 days too. Sounds SO easy for us HRT guys. Since we don't have to worry about being shut down and loosing our gains.

Maybe I will put this on the back burner for a while though... During the long winters I have more time to lift. I think during this I would try to lift 2 times a day like an insane mother.

One thing that has always scared me about doing this is cardiac hypertrophy. Would that be an issue with this kind of mess up?

didn't that happen to the grinch?

[Spyke]

I thinks the grinch's heart shrank. The opposite of what I mean.......LOL

[eisenmench]

That is exactly the mistake I have been afraid of making. Thanks for the info to assuage my fears.

[eisenmench]

I sent for test cyp for hrt to add to my supply and got deca instead. I was thinking of using it up (I hate to waste stuff!). I want to add like 125mg/week to 200mg/week test cyp. for 12 weeks (that' as long as it will last). So now when I run out and return to the 200mg test cyp only what should I do, say a week or two after the deca is done? Nova,Clomid,HCG? For a few weeks.

[zaggahamma]

funny title...too bad on the switcharoo BUT where i come from you doubled your dollars..
as far as your PCT question, I'll bump it for you...doubt i'll ever need to do
PCT since I'm on a permanent therapy

[try-n]

My pharmacy just sent me a vial of cyp,200mg/ml instead of the cyp/prop 200/50 blend by mistake also. Now they are sending what I need, and an extra vial of prop to go with the cyp,with apoligies and a discount!. Darn I'll have a couple extra vials now. I'm 4 weeks into an hrt program,and didn't know how crappy I felt before.

[CoreyTampa09]

Im not sure of your age but for all of you guys who are on HRT im 19 and will be starting 200mg every 14 days for 10 weeks is what I received. Everyone keeps mentioning how crappy they felt prior to HRT, can I really expect such a noticable change in my mood. Also for you guys isnt it something not to risk "to mess up doses" when your body is already producing less of what it should. Overall Im still just very curious on what to expect from me starting TRT.

[liftin4life]

Bump on this as it looks like I'm f*cked and will be on HRT (TOTAL TEST is 84)...age 24. I feel ya Corey....I feel like I'm messed up...which is true in a way I am...but it messes with my pride.

A friend said this is the best thing to ever happen to me though b/c I can get steroids legally. Also..no sides at normal dosage...and improved results over current ones. Then...bump it up for a "cycle" occasionally....drop off and go back to "normal" dose....no PCT needed b/c production was sh*t anyway. Or a mild PCT along with the maintenance dose. So in a way it sucks...in a way it's freakin great for bodybuilding and legalities.

[zaggahamma]

Bump on this as it looks like I'm f*cked and will be on HRT (TOTAL TEST is 84)...age 24. I feel ya Corey....I feel like I'm messed up...which is true in a way I am...but it messes with my pride.

A friend said this is the best thing to ever happen to me though b/c I can get steroids legally. Also..no sides at normal dosage...and improved results over current ones. Then...bump it up for a "cycle" occasionally....drop off and go back to "normal" dose....no PCT needed b/c production was sh*t anyway. Or a mild PCT along with the maintenance dose. So in a way it sucks...in a way it's freakin great for bodybuilding and legalities.

looks like you plan on making the best for your health and that's great....looks like you have a doc on board....hope you have a good one bro...best of luck to you...
one ? for you ....have you done any gear in the past?

[Spyke]

He is 24 and his total test is 84. I assume that is him in the avaitar pic so we can assume he doesn't have any massive health problems.

I am gonna go way out on a limb and say he has used gear in the past and did not do proper PCT or else he just came off a cycle and got the labs done.

[zaggahamma]

He is 24 and his total test is 84. I assume that is him in the avaitar pic so we can assume he doesn't have any massive health problems.

I am gonna go way out on a limb and say he has used gear in the past and did not do proper PCT or else he just came off a cycle and got the labs done.

yep...confirmed in another post....he's getting advised to maybe try to get his own production up with some agressive PCT, including hcg,etc.

i gotta bump that for him as my ONLY experience is with TRT since my only other cycle was almost 20 years ago and didn't include PCT....didn't even know of such an animal back then....might be why i'm in HRT.

[liftin4life]

Actually, it turns out it was from nothing I have personally done. After several visits, lots of bloodwork, and an MRI...they found a pituitary tumor...that was the cause. They rechecked test (3 times)...84, 44, and 51...so yeah...it's confirmed to be consistent.

So I'm glad it wasn't my fault.

[zaggahamma]

Actually, it turns out it was from nothing I have personally done. After several visits, lots of bloodwork, and an MRI...they found a pituitary tumor...that was the cause. They rechecked test (3 times)...84, 44, and 51...so yeah...it's confirmed to be consistent.

So I'm glad it wasn't my fault.

Well, are you going to be ok..are they testing further?

[Spyke]

Sorry to hear that man. Keep us posted on what is going on. What were your LH levels?

Everything I have read says that low test being caused by a tumor is pretty uncommon. And even when a tumor is found they are very rarely cancerous.

[liftin4life]

Sorry to hear that man. Keep us posted on what is going on. What were your LH levels?

Everything I have read says that low test being caused by a tumor is pretty uncommon. And even when a tumor is found they are very rarely cancerous.

It is VERY uncommon...the doc is surprised. But..that's the final verdict. They tested EVERYTHING after the first 2 low testosterone results......

*LH...normal
*FSH...normal
*TSH...normal
*SHBG...normal
.............................MRI taken due to concern about a possible tumor
tumor found...Prolactin, E2, AM test taken
*Prolactin...normal
*E2...normal
*Test (AM): 51ng/dl Free 11ng/dl (3rd test)

Options are: Surgery...Radiation...and TRT.

I've done A LOT of research. The danger zone of a pituitary tumor is around 10mm....can cause diabetes and vision problems. Mine is 4mm AND it's not secreting hormones...so it's benign(no threat YET)...other than severely hindering testosterone. So TRT is the best option.

IF I hadn't done my research I might have opted for surgery but the risks are not worth it UNLESS it is observed to be growing (MRI's every few months). It turns out radiation is done after surgery (almost ALWAYS) because they can't get ALL the tumor cells without risking damaging the pituitary (FULL HRT if they do)...they're microscopic. So they follow with radiation.

51% of all people who had this done were on FULL HRT (all hormones) within 1 year afterwards. (from the radiation). ON THE OTHER HAND...if they try to get too close ...and DO damage it...they have to take it out..and SAME thing. F*CK THAT! I'd rather replace ONE now than 6! That would be a balancing act for sure.

[Spyke]

Wow thats wierd. I have was under the impression that if there was a tumor it would cause super low LH. If the pituitary gland is making a "normal" amount of LH that would cause your nuts to make a fairly normal amount of test assuming that they are working properly.

[liftin4life]

Wow thats wierd. I have was under the impression that if there was a tumor it would cause super low LH. If the pituitary gland is making a "normal" amount of LH that would cause your nuts to make a fairly normal amount of test assuming that they are working properly.

Apparently not. Like I said, the doc was surprised also...but not shocked. From everything I've read, it doesn't make sense to me either. Also...no testicular shrinkage at all. ALL LEVELS were MIDrange normal except FSH...it was in the lower 3rd of the normal range. HOWEVER...lately (past few months) I've had to shave twice a day. Explain that one!

[Ufa]

Actually, it turns out it was from nothing I have personally done. After several visits, lots of bloodwork, and an MRI...they found a pituitary tumor...that was the cause. They rechecked test (3 times)...84, 44, and 51...so yeah...it's confirmed to be consistent.

So I'm glad it wasn't my fault.

Sorry to hear about that hope everything turns out fine.

[liftin4life]

Sorry to hear about that hope everything turns out fine.

Hopefully so.

[Spyke]

Apparently not. Like I said, the doc was surprised also...but not shocked. From everything I've read, it doesn't make sense to me either. Also...no testicular shrinkage at all. ALL LEVELS were MIDrange normal except FSH...it was in the lower 3rd of the normal range. HOWEVER...lately (past few months) I've had to shave twice a day. Explain that one!

Crazy! I notice now that I am on hrt, that I have to shave more but that seems normal. I am totally confused as to why that would happen to you with LOW test.

You need to find the best doc in your area for this. Not a "good" doc but the best. Maybe there is something else going on here too??

[liftin4life]

Crazy! I notice now that I am on hrt, that I have to shave more but that seems normal. I am totally confused as to why that would happen to you with LOW test.

You need to find the best doc in your area for this. Not a "good" doc but the best. Maybe there is something else going on here too??

Well the one I'm going to was recommended by a well-respected neurosurgeon...so hopefully she's good. If not...there are a couple here in town who have been doing this for 20+ years. If I can't find one agreeable with me, I'll fly out and see Swale perhaps...if it comes to that.

Something else? Damn I hope not! We've checked everything...and some things 2 and 3 times. Unless I have some disease or tumors other places, too...haha (not funny)....then I'm hoping this is just how my body is reacting and everyone is different. I hope it's that simple. I just want to feel NORMAL. I can't get my **** up and it's been at least 3 months. I just turned 25 four days ago. This is not right. I have a date tomorrow with a very attractive 35 yr old...and if things progress...which I'm hoping...I have to have my equipment working.

Hopefully since the Urologist knows the Endocrinologist and has spoken to her about my specific situation already (and faxed all lab work to her)...I can go in...and we can get me on some TRT asap!

[Spyke]

Swale is my doc and is worth the trip.

[ironaddict69]

what dose of test did swale put you on? i heard hes conservative with it.

[balin]

Swale puts you on the dose that will get you into the top of the normal range.

[Spyke]

150mg ew plus hcg and arimidex.

balin is correct, I am probably in the upper quarter of the normal range at this time. Dont know exactly because I have not had levels checked since I added the hcg and arimidex

[liftin4life]

150mg ew plus hcg and arimidex.

balin is correct, I am probably in the upper quarter of the normal range at this time. Dont know exactly because I have not had levels checked since I added the hcg and arimidex

Hmm. I talked to his receptionist and she said that he would treat me long distance if I could find a general practitioner for him to speak with by phone. I'm not sure what he'd put me on.

I went to the endocrinologist and things went VERY SMOOTHLY. She said gel at first...I said I'd rather do shots. She asked if I had injection experience...I told her yes...she said "great, then you should have no problem..I'll call in the script and you can do it at home." I was surprised..haha. I keep hearing how some people's doctors are reluctant but there was no hesitation or questioning at all.

So as soon as a few blood tests come back this week, she's calling me then calling in my script for 100mg/wk of Testosterone Enanthate.

I think that's underdosed since I'm at 51ng/dl total. I think I need 150mg or 200mg/wk. As far as Arimidex she said I wouldn't need it...and HCG she said she would prescribe if I had shrinkage. Spyke...what were your levels before Crisler/Swale put you on 150mg/wk?

[zaggahamma]

kudos on the RX
lift...that's actually a pretty good starting dose from what i've seen your 51ng/dl doesn't come into play as your natty levels are suppressed when you take injections...hope you respond well to the treatment....take care

[liftin4life]

kudos on the RX
lift...that's actually a pretty good starting dose from what i've seen your 51ng/dl doesn't come into play as your natty levels are suppressed when you take injections...hope you respond well to the treatment....take care

Well I can see how you would be correct if I take into account that when people take exogenous testosterone, any natural levels are suppressed. That would mean that me being at 51ng/dl and Joe Blow being at 200ng/dl would get about the same results (pending our individual processing of the hormone) after both of our HPTA's were suppressed even further than their current state. Interesting...that IS the angle you were explaining from right?

[zaggahamma]

yes...that was my understanding, however i have seen a couple recent posts that mention needing higher doses to achieve certain levels because of starting low natty
i started with the gel and my levels were low normal before (like around 275-298)(on 2 diff tests)...after 2 weeks i did more blood and levels were down to 140...i never understood that one but after upping the gel dose to double, i achieved a mid to high normal range on the next blood test (mind you these levels were achieved with low doses of androgel)...i got tired of the daily rubbing and finally talked the doc into writing RX for script...since then i have been able to achieve levels in surpluses of 1200 total test with 300mg/wk...this leaves me to believe for myself that 200mg/wk is probably a good fit for me...hope you feel better soon bro

[liftin4life]

yes...that was my understanding, however i have seen a couple recent posts that mention needing higher doses to achieve certain levels because of starting low natty
i started with the gel and my levels were low normal before (like around 275-298)(on 2 diff tests)...after 2 weeks i did more blood and levels were down to 140...i never understood that one but after upping the gel dose to double, i achieved a mid to high normal range on the next blood test (mind you these levels were achieved with low doses of androgel)...i got tired of the daily rubbing and finally talked the doc into writing RX for script...since then i have been able to achieve levels in surpluses of 1200 total test with 300mg/wk...this leaves me to believe for myself that 200mg/wk is probably a good fit for me...hope you feel better soon bro

Hmm...well the Dr. has me coming back in 3 months to recheck all my levels. If I can't convince her to go over 100mg/wk when she calls me this week to talk and call in my script...then perhaps in 3 months pending the results, the levels will warrant an increase at that point.

In the meantime, what about jumpstarting with propionate from a longevity clinic since it will take a bit for the enanthate to kick in?

[ironaddict69]

haha well man you already know what i said YES YES YES- THATS WHAT I WOULD DO IF I COULD START OVER!!!!!!

[zaggahamma]

Hmm...well the Dr. has me coming back in 3 months to recheck all my levels. If I can't convince her to go over 100mg/wk when she calls me this week to talk and call in my script...then perhaps in 3 months pending the results, the levels will warrant an increase at that point.

In the meantime, what about jumpstarting with propionate from a longevity clinic since it will take a bit for the enanthate to kick in?

lift....you're a young fella...are there clinics that work with brothers under 30....i think oasis you have to be 30?

[liftin4life]

lift....you're a young fella...are there clinics that work with brothers under 30....i think oasis you have to be 30?

Yes there are clinics that do that. Some clinics take into account your bloodwork as opposed to age.

The doctor called today and left a voicemail..then was unreachable. She said "let's start you on the test enanthate" but...she left a few details about my lab results and it was total BS. She's calling me first thing tomorrow.

She said: "well your LH and FSH went up a little bit and your liver values are high so I'm guessing the prohormone stack you did in January suppressed you...it might not be the tumor after all. I want to have you run the enanthate for 8 weeks then stop for a few weeks to check all levels.

HERE IS WHY THIS IS BS: first of all..she's wrong. My LH went from 1.9 (1.5-18 scale) to 1.5. It DROPPED. She got confused...I'll correct her tomorrow. SECONDLY..my FSH went from 1.4 to 1.5 (1.5-18 scale). YEAH...f*cking improvement my a$$!

Liver values ....67 on a 0-50 scale...not sure why that is. And get this..my test was 225??? I think there were errors. WHY? Because the first 3 testosterone tests showed 44ng/dl, 84ng/dl, 51ng/dl and now 225ng/dl 2 wks later with a DROP in LH? Ummm...no!?!?

Yeah I'm still low...and yeah I'm still going on TRT but the test HAS to be wrong on the liver and total testosterone..makes NO sense. AND...PROHORMONES CAN'T F*CK UP LIVER VALUES AND CAUSE SUPPRESSION 8 MONTHS LATER AFTER PROPER PCT WAS DONE AND HOMEOSTASIS WAS RETURNED! SHE IS CLUELESS! Grrr...I get really irritated about this.

I don't want to piss her off though. I'll fill my prescription, then point out her mistakes in interpretation...then go to a longevity clinic if she doesn't like what I have to say.

[ironaddict69]

dude yeah most drs dunt know anythin about this stuff. i wish i could see like anthony roberts for my dr lol hes a GENIOUS with this stuff.

[zaggahamma]

Yes there are clinics that do that. Some clinics take into account your bloodwork as opposed to age.

The doctor called today and left a voicemail..then was unreachable. She said "let's start you on the test enanthate" but...she left a few details about my lab results and it was total BS. She's calling me first thing tomorrow.

She said: "well your LH and FSH went up a little bit and your liver values are high so I'm guessing the prohormone stack you did in January suppressed you...it might not be the tumor after all. I want to have you run the enanthate for 8 weeks then stop for a few weeks to check all levels.

HERE IS WHY THIS IS BS: first of all..she's wrong. My LH went from 1.9 (1.5-18 scale) to 1.5. It DROPPED. She got confused...I'll correct her tomorrow. SECONDLY..my FSH went from 1.4 to 1.5 (1.5-18 scale). YEAH...f*cking improvement my a$$!

Liver values ....67 on a 0-50 scale...not sure why that is. And get this..my test was 225??? I think there were errors. WHY? Because the first 3 testosterone tests showed 44ng/dl, 84ng/dl, 51ng/dl and now 225ng/dl 2 wks later with a DROP in LH? Ummm...no!?!?

Yeah I'm still low...and yeah I'm still going on TRT but the test HAS to be wrong on the liver and total testosterone..makes NO sense. AND...PROHORMONES CAN'T F*CK UP LIVER VALUES AND CAUSE SUPPRESSION 8 MONTHS LATER AFTER PROPER PCT WAS DONE AND HOMEOSTASIS WAS RETURNED! SHE IS CLUELESS! Grrr...I get really irritated about this.

I don't want to piss her off though. I'll fill my prescription, then point out her mistakes in interpretation...then go to a longevity clinic if she doesn't like what I have to say.

yeh...if i remember correct, you got insurance...so milk her for what you can ...even ask her again about the arimidex...maybe she'll give, then you'll have it on hand in case your estro goes up if you go higher on your test doses...then supplement with what ever else you need with the clinic(s)