Low Testost Levels & shots haven't helped

**123roberte** · 05-10-2008, 07:51 PM

Hello to all! I recently joined on to this site and being a newbie posted my initial thread a few days ago & under the wrong category. Under advisement by a fellow member I was kindly directed here. Please pardon my long request for help......Here is the gist of it;
Due to having my blood work testosterone levels of "85" (+/- a few points over 3 consecutive months & tested first thing in the morning) My levels have steadily declined over the past few years. 3 years ago it was at 145 and Our family doctor (a very conservative, but understanding man) initially had me try Androgel daily but there was no changes. The associated messiness plus having to remember the daily routine had me wanting something better. He has now scripted me with a 10 month supply (1 ML) vial of testosterone cypionate injection to be self injected every 4 weeks @ 200mg per pop. I’ve given myself the injections at alternating sites (left hip / right hip, left glute).
My first injection was exactly 30 days ago (4/9/08). A week had passed & I did not feel any benefits. So I decided on my own to give my self another injection (200mg)... Again, 7 days passed & I thought for sure it should start having some effect on me. Shouldn’t it start to relieve the problems of my having low testosterone ? which for me is severe lethargy, no energy, depression (for which I’m already taken meds for), and also virtually no libido. I’ll be (52 this July... yech!!!) I let another 14 days pass and yesterday (5/9/08) I decided to give myself a third injection. Again, another 200mgs. It’s now been over 24 hours and darned if I feel any difference. No changes at all!! Here's a little more info or history;
I’ve had a total knee replacement of my right knee and the left one will need replacing sometime soon as well. All due to avascular necrosis, which is a bone disease more severe than arthritis. I have bone density problems in general. Which may be a direct result from low testosterone also.
Let me add this to the mix....Because of the 9 or 10 years of continued pain from my bone problems, I’ve taken methadone (pills) for 6 years. Prior to that I had been on all the other pain meds. Everything from Vicodin to Percocet, then Dualidid to Oxycontin. Finally I’m having a permanent intrathecal pain pump implanted on May 13th (3 days from this posting) My pain mgmt doctor will be using morphine in the pump and I’ll have to have it refilled every 90 days.
The reason I’m saying all this is because, in case some of you don’t know this, methadone (narcotics in general) is well known to cause testosterone deficiency; serum testosterone depletion.
What is going on? Why, after absorbing 600mgs in 30 days, am I not experiencing any change?? Could it be too low of a dose to start with? Would it be safe for me to try a different dosage? I don't think increasing the dose or schedule would be harmful. Like I said earlier, my primary care doctor is a “every day” kind of doctor. He sees everybody for everything, then refers out as needed. Since my insurance didn't cover the cost of the testosterone cypionate vial I had to pay cash, so I'm not worried about running out. I know I can get more if & when needed. Please offer any and all help or advice & soon. My wife of 26 years doesn't deserve this.....& neither do I.
For all of you whose time I’ve used while reading though this, Thank you so very much!!!

**lovbyts** · 05-10-2008, 08:14 PM

Do a little more research. You will find most everybody suggest doing 250mg 2x a week to keep levels normal due to the half life of Test. Doing it once a week you will experience highs and lows. Sounds like you are not taking enough. My level is at 250 and that is LOW, 85 is non existent.
Due to you other injury's do some searching also on HGH. It has been proven to help with injuries and bone density.

**Kale** · 05-10-2008, 08:24 PM

Dude it takes about FIVE WEEKS to feel anything from Test Cyp!!!! So relax and stop shooting yourself up so much. Now what you have to do is start at 100mg A WEEK. Every four weeks is not great as lovbyts has mentioned as your test levels will be all over the place. Do that for a couple of months then go and get a blood test and have your Test and Estradiol levels checked.

When was the last time you shot ? Whenever it was, wait a week then shoot another 100mg Test C then continue to do that every week untill the blood test. You may need more than 100mg a week but the blood test will tell you that.

Come back to me if anything I have said is unclear

**lovbyts** · 05-10-2008, 08:39 PM

Good point, keep using only what is prescribed for now but NOT once a month. Once a week you will get more level results.

**123roberte** · 05-10-2008, 09:02 PM

Thanks for your input. I have more to learn and judging by your words, this forum IS the best place to absorb the info. Hmmmmm, is there a "Steroids for Dummies" book or something similiar that would be helpful as well? Thanks again!

**Kale** · 05-10-2008, 09:17 PM

We are here to help you. And trust me there are a lot of guys here who know a lot more about this than Dr's do. Ask anything you want, no such thing as a dumb question. This will help with your education http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=331179

This will help as well HRT/TRT--The basics (by Tulane University Medical Center)

**123roberte** · 05-10-2008, 09:30 PM

WOW!! Way cool link. Thanks for the direction. I'll probably be spending the next few....wait tomorrow's Mother's day, dang....Well anyway, I'll spend the remainder of tonight reviewing the wealth of text & links. Then when I return from my surgery (short stay - 1 day on Tuesday) I'll head right back into it. And if I hear of no objections, I may just out right print it for continued reference.
Well done my man!!!! Thanx

**Kale** · 05-10-2008, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by 123roberte

WOW!! Way cool link. Thanks for the direction. I'll probably be spending the next few....wait tomorrow's Mother's day, dang....Well anyway, I'll spend the remainder of tonight reviewing the wealth of text & links. Then when I return from my surgery (short stay - 1 day on Tuesday) I'll head right back into it. And if I hear of no objections, I may just out right print it for continued reference.
Well done my man!!!! Thanx

Print all you want dude its all public domain and there to help people like you. Good luck with it and let us now how it goes

**Nickster#1** · 05-10-2008, 10:25 PM

First of all, the methadone and other opiate pain medications you are taking is in fact the main reason for you lethargy and depression, low test levels, etc. You are completely physically and mentally addicted to these opiates. If I were you, I would first try to get off of the pain meds, namely the methadone, but not all of your pain meds. You will go into severe withgrawals, but I would guess that you know this. The methadone has the longest half life out of all the meds you mentioned and is also the number one hardest to come off of. If you take oxycontin also, then you should be able to get off of the methadone and continue the other meds. Methadone is horrible stuff. It is what your number one problem is for the lethargy. It is the best pain med going, but comes with a plethura of harsh sides. The testosterone will help you, but maybe talk to your doc about getting going with some enanth rather than cyp as enanth has a little bit of a shorter esther attached to it, meaning that it has more test, less esther than cyp, and is more effective.
I am telling you for a fact that the pain meds is your biggest downfall right now. I know its is the toughest thing there is next to cigarrettes to get off of, and also that some people need to take pain meds, but you are taking a opiate cocktail I would guess 4 to 5 times a day????
Like taking synthetic tesatosterone shuts down your bodys ability to produce its own natty test, opiates will stop your body from producing its own natty endorphines. After awhile, your body builds a tolerance to opiates, and you need to take m,ore and more to get the desired analgesic affect andf also that feeling of well being. I can go on and on about this my friend, but to break it down to you, talk to your doc about another form of pain relief, and also talk to him about a drug called suboxone. This drug is used to detox people from long term opiate use, but unlike methadone, you dont get high, and you are for the first time in years yoursself again, and without any withdrawals. Google suboxone. but there is a process with all this and it begins with your doctor, not this board. You are an older gentleman with alot of medical issues to take care of. The only advice I would give regarding the test is ask for test enanthate , or even sustanon .
6 years of continued opiate use is well, talk to your doctor, please...........
I hope the best for you my friend. I am talking to you from personal experience, not just from what I read on this board. Your 26 YO wife,,,.... way to go by the way, is good incentive to persue a better life. good luck bro
peace

Originally Posted by 123roberte

Hello to all! I recently joined on to this site and being a newbie posted my initial thread a few days ago & under the wrong category. Under advisement by a fellow member I was kindly directed here. Please pardon my long request for help......Here is the gist of it;
Due to having my blood work testosterone levels of "85" (+/- a few points over 3 consecutive months & tested first thing in the morning) My levels have steadily declined over the past few years. 3 years ago it was at 145 and Our family doctor (a very conservative, but understanding man) initially had me try Androgel daily but there was no changes. The associated messiness plus having to remember the daily routine had me wanting something better. He has now scripted me with a 10 month supply (1 ML) vial of testosterone cypionate injection to be self injected every 4 weeks @ 200mg per pop. I’ve given myself the injections at alternating sites (left hip / right hip, left glute).
My first injection was exactly 30 days ago (4/9/08). A week had passed & I did not feel any benefits. So I decided on my own to give my self another injection (200mg)... Again, 7 days passed & I thought for sure it should start having some effect on me. Shouldn’t it start to relieve the problems of my having low testosterone ? which for me is severe lethargy, no energy, depression (for which I’m already taken meds for), and also virtually no libido. I’ll be (52 this July... yech!!!) I let another 14 days pass and yesterday (5/9/08) I decided to give myself a third injection. Again, another 200mgs. It’s now been over 24 hours and darned if I feel any difference. No changes at all!! Here's a little more info or history;
I’ve had a total knee replacement of my right knee and the left one will need replacing sometime soon as well. All due to avascular necrosis, which is a bone disease more severe than arthritis. I have bone density problems in general. Which may be a direct result from low testosterone also.
Let me add this to the mix....Because of the 9 or 10 years of continued pain from my bone problems, I’ve taken methadone (pills) for 6 years. Prior to that I had been on all the other pain meds. Everything from Vicodin to Percocet, then Dualidid to Oxycontin. Finally I’m having a permanent intrathecal pain pump implanted on May 13th (3 days from this posting) My pain mgmt doctor will be using morphine in the pump and I’ll have to have it refilled every 90 days.
The reason I’m saying all this is because, in case some of you don’t know this, methadone (narcotics in general) is well known to cause testosterone deficiency; serum testosterone depletion.
What is going on? Why, after absorbing 600mgs in 30 days, am I not experiencing any change?? Could it be too low of a dose to start with? Would it be safe for me to try a different dosage? I don't think increasing the dose or schedule would be harmful. Like I said earlier, my primary care doctor is a “every day” kind of doctor. He sees everybody for everything, then refers out as needed. Since my insurance didn't cover the cost of the testosterone cypionate vial I had to pay cash, so I'm not worried about running out. I know I can get more if & when needed. Please offer any and all help or advice & soon. My wife of 26 years doesn't deserve this.....& neither do I.
For all of you whose time I’ve used while reading though this, Thank you so very much!!!

**Kale** · 05-10-2008, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Nickster#1

First of all, the methadone and other opiate pain medications you are taking is in fact the main reason for you lethargy and depression, low test levels, etc. You are completely physically and mentally addicted to these opiates. If I were you, I would first try to get off of the pain meds, namely the methadone, but not all of your pain meds. You will go into severe withgrawals, but I would guess that you know this. The methadone has the longest half life out of all the meds you mentioned and is also the number one hardest to come off of. If you take oxycontin also, then you should be able to get off of the methadone and continue the other meds. Methadone is horrible stuff. It is what your number one problem is for the lethargy. It is the best pain med going, but comes with a plethura of harsh sides. The testosterone will help you, but maybe talk to your doc about getting going with some enanth rather than cyp as enanth has a little bit of a shorter esther attached to it, meaning that it has more test, less esther than cyp, and is more effective.
I am telling you for a fact that the pain meds is your biggest downfall right now. I know its is the toughest thing there is next to cigarrettes to get off of, and also that some people need to take pain meds, but you are taking a opiate cocktail I would guess 4 to 5 times a day????
Like taking synthetic tesatosterone shuts down your bodys ability to produce its own natty test, opiates will stop your body from producing its own natty endorphines. After awhile, your body builds a tolerance to opiates, and you need to take m,ore and more to get the desired analgesic affect andf also that feeling of well being. I can go on and on about this my friend, but to break it down to you, talk to your doc about another form of pain relief, and also talk to him about a drug called suboxone. This drug is used to detox people from long term opiate use, but unlike methadone, you dont get high, and you are for the first time in years yoursself again, and without any withdrawals. Google suboxone. but there is a process with all this and it begins with your doctor, not this board. You are an older gentleman with alot of medical issues to take care of. The only advice I would give regarding the test is ask for test enanthate , or even sustanon .
6 years of continued opiate use is well, talk to your doctor, please...........
I hope the best for you my friend. I am talking to you from personal experience, not just from what I read on this board. Your 26 YO wife,,,.... way to go by the way, is good incentive to persue a better life. good luck bro
peace

Excellent advice dude !!!! Sadly his wife isnt 26, he has been married to her for 26 years

**Coach 44** · 05-11-2008, 02:12 AM

No kidding Kale. I was with him all the way until that.

Seriously, great advice! As far as 250 mg's of cyp 2 x a week, that's the first time I've heard of such a high dosage. The highest common dosage that I've seen is 200 mg's once per week. On 200 mg's once a week I went from test level of 306 to 1240 in two weeks. I've gone to 100 mg. per week since my last bloodwork.

**fbcoach** · 05-11-2008, 07:32 AM

Kale amd Nickster....GREAT POSTS!!

123Roberte,
Nickster is SPOT ON. The opiates are causing a lot of your problems along with low testosterone . They are depressing your metabolic system, and this is causing a lot of the lethargy, fatigue, pain, and depression. I broke my neck in 92' and had a complete cervical lamenectomy. I've had chronic pain eversince. I thank God I had a Dr. that refused to prescribe these drugs. Unfortunately, a colleague of mine that played Pro ball went the same route as you with the opiates....He's a mess. Testosterone will help, but you will have to get a complete Metabolic Panel to test your complete system, then put the pieces together. Insist that your Dr. runs every imaginal test. Good Luck and let us know how everything is going.

**123roberte** · 05-11-2008, 12:47 PM

I think maybe I need to emphasize the embedded message in my thread. This coming Tuesday, May 13th, I am going into the hospital and having a catheter (needle) inserted into my spine. That catheter will then be connected to a tube which will run through my abdomen and connect to a pain pump which will reside just inside my skin. A special pouch is being made to contain the pump and then my skin will be sutured together so the pump is enclosed inside my body. I have stopped virtually all the narcotics 3 months, ago except for two 30mg MS Contin (Morphine) twice a day to allow the implant process to happen. By the way these 4 tablets per day in no way tackle the pain. Their taken so my body doesn't go into total withdrawal until my pump can take over. The idea of using a intrathecal pain pump is to get off oral meds altogether. The pump will distribute what equates to 1/300th of the amount of medicine I used to take. It does this by dropping a minuscule amount of morphine right onto the nerve(s) in my spinal canal.

Oral meds would first go to the liver to be metabolized then be spread through my system bringing with it all the nasty side effects. By my using this pain pump all that will be a thing of the past. The med goes right to the nerve(s), bathing it with relief.

I want to also mention that for those of us who are not abusers of pain meds we sometimes get testy when we get confused with those euphoric seeking dopeheads. If anyone truly understands that, then they know when someone who truly suffers with pain, they don't get that feeling. What we get is a chance to enjoy life again. I get to enjoy being with my 3 sons & my wife and not be a burden. Once my pain pump is in and programmed I’ll be closer to being able to resume that enjoyment.

However, without getting my testosterone levels back up & running correctly, I still won’t be the complete man I need (& used) to be. Resolving my pain issues are only half the battle.

A special thanks to all of you who thought of me by sharing your concerns. That is why this site is beneficial. People who care show it! Then the others who sign on or join later get a chance to see that, learn & grow.

Make sure you think of those special females today......it's Mother's Day!!

**Kale** · 05-11-2008, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by 123roberte

I think maybe I need to emphasize the embedded message in my thread. This coming Tuesday, May 13th, I am going into the hospital and having a catheter (needle) inserted into my spine. That catheter will then be connected to a tube which will run through my abdomen and connect to a pain pump which will reside just inside my skin. A special pouch is being made to contain the pump and then my skin will be sutured together so the pump is enclosed inside my body. I have stopped virtually all the narcotics 3 months, ago except for two 30mg MS Contin (Morphine) twice a day to allow the implant process to happen. By the way these 4 tablets per day in no way tackle the pain. Their taken so my body doesn't go into total withdrawal until my pump can take over. The idea of using a intrathecal pain pump is to get off oral meds altogether. The pump will distribute what equates to 1/300th of the amount of medicine I used to take. It does this by dropping a minuscule amount of morphine right onto the nerve(s) in my spinal canal.

Oral meds would first go to the liver to be metabolized then be spread through my system bringing with it all the nasty side effects. By my using this pain pump all that will be a thing of the past. The med goes right to the nerve(s), bathing it with relief.

I want to also mention that for those of us who are not abusers of pain meds we sometimes get testy when we get confused with those euphoric seeking dopeheads. If anyone truly understands that, then they know when someone who truly suffers with pain, they don't get that feeling. What we get is a chance to enjoy life again. I get to enjoy being with my 3 sons & my wife and not be a burden. Once my pain pump is in and programmed I’ll be closer to being able to resume that enjoyment.

However, without getting my testosterone levels back up & running correctly, I still won’t be the complete man I need (& used) to be. Resolving my pain issues are only half the battle.

A special thanks to all of you who thought of me by sharing your concerns. That is why this site is beneficial. People who care show it! Then the others who sign on or join later get a chance to see that, learn & grow.

Make sure you think of those special females today......it's Mother's Day!!

Good luck with the pump dude and let us know how it goes

**keith1958** · 05-12-2008, 05:39 AM

Sorry to hear about all the problems you are having. I know from my own life that the pain meds play havoc on your hormones and this is probably what caused the low test to begin with. If you need the meds and it seems that you do then your doing the correct thing with the pump. Just understand you will not get as much out of the injections while on the pain meds. and make no mistake about you are addicted to themeds unless you are not human. That is nothing to be ashamed about. I was lucky not everyone is. But it will take linger for you to get the most out of the T-CYP and stay on T-CYP. Good luck man and we are here for you.

**fbcoach** · 05-12-2008, 04:18 PM

Trust me bro....I wasn't judging you or assuming you were addicted. I have had chronic pain 24/7 for over a decade, and NOBODY understands your pain like yourself. I was talking mainly about how pain meds slow down and depress your metabolism (depressing your thryoid). Chronic pain, depression, and fatigue is linked to the thyroid (specifically to free T3) and other neurotransmitters. Anyway, glad you are getting the help you need, and keep us updated on how you are doing. I am interested in how it all works out for you bro. I know what you mean about family. I have raised my 10yr old son by myself since he was 1yr of age, and I want to be the best Dad I can be to him.

**ottomaddox** · 05-12-2008, 05:15 PM

Great thread! As a chronic pain sufferer and a TRT patient too, I've definitely learned a thing or two about opiods in their relationship to low Testosterone levels .