stopping trt need some help????

[nalm]

hi long story short i am stoping my injects . i am taking adex at .5 e3d ( its a capsle so i cant break it up) now can i continue my adex to help bost my natual test will it do ,or should i switch to novadex? and would i still wait roughly 2 weeks after my last shot to start the novadex??
any help would be great thanks.

[natureboy]

Why are you stopping TRT? Why did you go on TRT in the beggining? Did you not have some sort of problems that made you feel like you needed it? The Dr that put you on it thought you must need it. What makes you think you can stop an everything will be better, and you won't have the same problems as before?

[MuscleScience]

Yeah why are you stopping?

[THORSZ]

It will boost your natural levels, but why are you getting off? How much are you taking and how long have you been on?

[nalm]

i have been taking andrgel ( 2 packs) a day for roughly 4 months and injects for around 3 i started to take adex when i started growing brest tissue and my nuts came to there ogrnial size and its just turning in to a big hassle where i can not find decent help as far as doctors go besides i am 28 years old and feel i should give my body one last try .

[FullMoonHowlingWolf]

"i am 28 years old and feel i should give my body one last try." Give yourself another try, but in the meantime try to find another doc and get your levels tested after you do your PCT. The following PCT was posted by Pinnacle and reading it should be helpful.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=209758

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

[THORSZ]

i have been taking andrgel ( 2 packs) a day for roughly 4 months and injects for around 3 i started to take adex when i started growing brest tissue and my nuts came to there ogrnial size and its just turning in to a big hassle where i can not find decent help as far as doctors go besides i am 28 years old and feel i should give my body one last try .

That makes sense. Better to do it now before you get older and have been on longer. Can you get your hands on some hcg ?

[Philly Grappler]

i have been taking andrgel ( 2 packs) a day for roughly 4 months and injects for around 3 i started to take adex when i started growing brest tissue and my nuts came to there ogrnial size and its just turning in to a big hassle where i can not find decent help as far as doctors go besides i am 28 years old and feel i should give my body one last try .

Thats a drag. Good luck and I hope you find a decent doc if your body doesn't put out what you want it to. I inject once a week and take Arimidex 3 x's a week and it's really hassle free.

[binder]

i was just getting ready to ask where you are at that you can't find a good doctor and i saw your location (canada). No offense to canadian doctors, my private physician is canadian and a great doctor.

Take a good read people, this is exactly what happens to healthcare when a country goes to a National Healthcare system.....who wants to vote Obama now?

[zaggahamma]

i was just getting ready to ask where you are at that you can't find a good doctor and i saw your location (canada). No offense to canadian doctors, my private physician is canadian and a great doctor.

Take a good read people, this is exactly what happens to healthcare when a country goes to a National Healthcare system.....who wants to vote Obama now?

unfortunately half of american's...but i'll stop the hijack there and

nalm....good luck kick startin

[nalm]

i was taking 100mgs a week of test eth and i started to feel lumps in my chest and went and had an ultrasound done they said it was brest tissue witch i kinda new so i did add adex .5 e3d and my testies are fuller again not sure why, i have stopped my test its been 9 days since my last inject of 100 mg's of eth , its been a 5 days since i took adex, as i tihnk it lowered my estro to much
the main problem i have is no libido , and ed , those are 2 of the reasons i started trt and 2 things i have again from to low estro , i figure if pct or this dont work im only back to where i am now,

i do have a couple more questions, i read ar pct before and was gonna do it, but i have a couple questions
if my lil guys recover there size from adex would i need hcg at all i dont want to desentatise anything
ar's protocal says to start one week after last shot , now its been a lil over a week for me and it will be probably a week before i have all the stuff for pct, should i do another shot of test for this week and start it in a week, or waiting the 2 weeks then starting it will be fine? when should i stop the adex before i start the nova? as they dont get along
i guess my main concerin is no libido at all and ed i need to fix this and i know the second stems from no libido

now is there some thing i can use instead of aromasin ? not to sure i can get this yet


p.s not to add to the hijack but you cant use my case as either a means to bash canadian doc's or our helthcare system, i do have great doctors in nova scotia , i am in ontario and i have no doctor here its walk in clinics , and i can get all the blood work i want in a week when i am back home in nova scotia, its more of that then the healthcare system , i am a believer in our healthcare and i beleave it to be a good thing dont get me wrong its not with out its faults, but honestly the cost of meds should be looked at over healthcare
whocares if its free when you cant aford to buy what they say you need?

oh and for canadian doctors , where do you think Insulin came from along with many other things

now stop hijacking my thread ya big jerks lol j/k

[binder]

First: don't think your national healthcare is "free". You do pay for it, just not directly. You pay through taxes and other things. Healthcare costs and the public pays for it. Nothing in life is ever free. I have a canadian doctor for the reason of your healthcare system. He as the few others (there are a couple here in my area) hated the national system. Dr. Stevens is always complaining about it "tying the hands of doctors"

anyways, Your decreased libido isn't due to low estrogen (estradiol). Libido in men is directly related to testosterone . Lowering your estrogen is a good thing since you were showing signs of gynocomastia.

With test enanthate you can wait somewhere around 10-14 days to start your PCT. The halflife is 14 days per literature. Using Adex and nolva together....i think adex lowers the effectiveness of nolva(tamoxifen ) but I don't recall anything i've read about it causing negative effects that could harm you. So don't worry about "hurting" yourself by using them together. There are many people that use adex, novla, and clomid together for a PCT.

[zaggahamma]

First: don't think your national healthcare is "free". You do pay for it, just not directly. You pay through taxes and other things. Healthcare costs and the public pays for it. Nothing in life is ever free. I have a canadian doctor for the reason of your healthcare system. He as the few others (there are a couple here in my area) hated the national system. Dr. Stevens is always complaining about it "tying the hands of doctors"

anyways, Your decreased libido isn't due to low estrogen (estradiol). Libido in men is directly related to testosterone. Lowering your estrogen is a good thing since you were showing signs of gynocomastia.

With test enanthate you can wait somewhere around 10-14 days to start your PCT. The halflife is 14 days per literature. Using Adex and nolva together....i think adex lowers the effectiveness of nolva(tamoxifen) but I don't recall anything i've read about it causing negative effects that could harm you. So don't worry about "hurting" yourself by using them together. There are many people that use adex, novla, and clomid together for a PCT.

i have heard many threads stating that if estrogen goes too low, it will interfere/inhibit libido and/or strength gains and that optimum estradiol is like 20-35 giver or take?

[binder]

strength gain will be hindered. Estradiol also will increase your water retention. It maybe will effect the libido in a very small indirect way, but testosterone is a direct relation to libido.

So let's look at the facts: you have incredibly low testosterone that is directly responsible for libido and just now your estradiol has been lowered and it MAYBE has a small indirect effect on libido. By process of elimination you should conclude that your libido is caused by your depressed testosterone levels .

Also remember, estradiol is in very low concentration (50-80 pg/mL, and pico is 9 decimal places) in men to start with so it doesn't play a huge part of the hormone role in the male body. It does play a part, but not nearly as powerful as testosterone.

sidenote: i just looked up through my Internal Medicine book and libido is directly related to testosterone. Nowhere did it reference levels of estradiol being low as to a cause for decreased libido. So, with no luck i asked an Attending. The question I asked was "what is the effect of estradiol on male libido" and he said it was common practice to use estrogen hormone to increase the levels of estradiol in inmates to reduce their libido. i couldn't find any of this practice in my endo or internal med books but i don't know why he would make that up. I didn't tell him what reason i wanted to know about it. He seemed pretty excited to share with me that they used that on inmates. Must have been some experimental thing they did back then because i don't see it being legal to do that now.

[zaggahamma]

strength gain will be hindered. Estradiol also will increase your water retention. It maybe will effect the libido in a very small indirect way, but testosterone is a direct relation to libido.

So let's look at the facts: you have incredibly low testosterone that is directly responsible for libido and just now your estradiol has been lowered and it MAYBE has a small indirect effect on libido. By process of elimination you should conclude that your libido is caused by your depressed testosterone levels .

Also remember, estradiol is in very low concentration (50-80 pg/mL, and pico is 9 decimal places) in men to start with so it doesn't play a huge part of the hormone role in the male body. It does play a part, but not nearly as powerful as testosterone.

sidenote: i just looked up through my Internal Medicine book and libido is directly related to testosterone. Nowhere did it reference levels of estradiol being low as to a cause for decreased libido. So, with no luck i asked an Attending. The question I asked was "what is the effect of estradiol on male libido" and he said it was common practice to use estrogen hormone to increase the levels of estradiol in inmates to reduce their libido. i couldn't find any of this practice in my endo or internal med books but i don't know why he would make that up. I didn't tell him what reason i wanted to know about it. He seemed pretty excited to share with me that they used that on inmates. Must have been some experimental thing they did back then because i don't see it being legal to do that now.

i wonder if this could be because the study(s) dont have test subjects that purposely lower estradiol? and then accidentally go to low?

[binder]

Hmm.....I don't know. We're at work so we really didn't have a lot of time to sit around and discuss it. I caught him in passing.

Main thing is, i don't believe your estradiol levels are what is effecting your libido. The lowered testosterone levels are. It's proven to cause decreased libido. Long ester testosterone is actually what is prescribed FOR decreased libido.

[nalm]

i got every thing but the Aromasin can i get by with out that? i got blood work a day before i take my shot , for a before , and i am gonna get it dont after aswell, i just have a few questions
1 how long after i stop taking arimadex will it still effect tamxifen ?
2 as i stated before can i get by with out Aromasin?(as i cant find it)
3 i cant fidn the mixing directions to my hcg if anyone knows or has a link that would be great i cant remeber
oh and shoudl i wait toweeks after my last shot or a week etc? to start my hcg? ar protcal says you can start right away but i was wondering if a week would be fine?
thanks for all the help

[nalm]

oh i can post a before and after of my blood work if anyone is interest aswell

[peptide]

I wonder if the reason there is so much debate on whether too low of estrogen in males suppresses libido is because it's not well studied and documented. Honestly Dr's don't even all agree. I can tell you first hand that many years ago when I was young and dumb I was running a cycle of 250mg Sus250 w/ 200mg EQ every week and taking 30mg of nolvadex everyday and had no libido at all. I stopped taking the nolvadex and in less than a week I was chasing the wife around the house.

[SWOLLL]

I just read an article about low estrogen levels decreasing libido, I will try and find it and post the link.
I agree with peptide that it is probably not well studied so there is probably no conclusive information.
I think most of can agree that many Dr.s are ill informed at best and are way behind in terms of male horome therapy. I hope that changes soon as I am having trouble finding a knowledgeable Dr. in my area too.

[FuPayMe]

i was just getting ready to ask where you are at that you can't find a good doctor and i saw your location (canada). No offense to canadian doctors, my private physician is canadian and a great doctor.

Take a good read people, this is exactly what happens to healthcare when a country goes to a National Healthcare system.....who wants to vote Obama now?

i do

[Pac Man]

Post it all Nalm, I'm looking at doing the same thing.

[nalm]

i am about to inject my hcg ( in an hour or so), my plan is as fallows
tamoxifen hcg vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day
5 20mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

its been one week to the day since my last shot of eth (100 mg/ml)
i stoped taking adex 5 days ago (because i wasnt sure how long it took to get out of my system and i didnt want it to hinder or interact with the tamoxifen, still not sure but hoping its been long enough )
i couldnt get aromasin , so this is what im going to use and hopfully it works, i did get the results back from my "before" blood work , my test levels are good my estrogan is doubled( cant remember the form of measurment but it was 60 and went to 120 since i started trt) and my lh and such is less then 0.5 , but i will get copies of both and will be able to tell you what they say more accurately
oh and if anyone notices some thign im doing wrong or missed feel free to let me know and i am gonna get blood work done one week after my shot ( i already did) 6 weeks(as soon as im done nov/hcg and vit e, and one more after every thign has cleared my system to see where i leveled out at .

[SWOLLL]

Your estrogen was at 60 and then went to 120?

If am not mistaken your estrogen should be around 20.

[nalm]

yes those are the numbers but i cant remember what form of measurment they used ,i am gonna get copies of it all though but i know its high i got signs of gyno and i am not prone to it at al

[AnabolicBoy1981]

anyways, Your decreased libido isn't due to low estrogen (estradiol). Libido in men is directly related to testosterone.

wanna bet? I respectfully disagree . I have taken letrozole and have gotten my NATTY testosterone levels up to 1500ng and a low estrogen level, and had hardly any sex drive. I have more sex drive at my normal 600ng levels and with normal estrogen levels. Dht and estrogen are very important in libido. Also, the sensations in the penis are not nearly as good with low estrogen regardless of high testosterone . It could take forever to cum. One time i banged a chick for 3 hours and i didnt cum on while on letrozole.
but since you have man tits you have to prioritize that for now.
on the flip side, too much estrogen can kill libido too. good luck. you just have to keep playin with it till you get it.

[AnabolicBoy1981]

also, were you taking propecia at any time? lowering dht increases estrogenic activity since dht counter acts estro in certain tissues like the breast

[zaggahamma]

wanna bet? I respectfully disagree . I have taken letrozole and have gotten my NATTY testosterone levels up to 1500ng and a low estrogen level, and had hardly any sex drive. I have more sex drive at my normal 600ng levels and with normal estrogen levels. Dht and estrogen are very important in libido. Also, the sensations in the penis are not nearly as good with low estrogen regardless of high testosterone . It could take forever to cum. One time i banged a chick for 3 hours and i didnt cum on while on letrozole.
but since you have man tits you have to prioritize that for now.
on the flip side, too much estrogen can kill libido too. good luck. you just have to keep playin with it till you get it.

good post a-boy...in your opinion...is there a range where estradiol is at its optimum level for men...and where was it when you said you had normal estro levels?

thanks

[Pac Man]

What's the purpose of Vitamin E? Curious

[zaggahamma]

What's the purpose of Vitamin E? Curious

not for hrt but it is an essential vitamin and i believe it is found in egg yolks...yums

[Pac Man]

updates?

[nalm]

Hi, i am actually going to the docs to get my blood work results in the morning i will up date this later tomorrow,

[Pac Man]

Looking forward to it.
Hope it all worked out well, good luck!

[Pac Man]

Looking forward to it.
Hope it all worked out well, good luck!

[bene7422]

What's the purpose of Vitamin E? Curious

it actually makes the hcg work better.

[nalm]

hi,sorry for the wait here is my blood work

before trt

Test 15.80 range is 4.56-28.2 nmol/l
biotest 4.8 range is 2-14 noml/l
estradiol 60.1 range 20 - 240 pmol/l
my prolaction level was 10.5 range is 3.7-17.9
lueteinizing hormaone is 3.15 iu/l range is 0.0-7.0
TSH was 2.6 rangs is 0.34-4.82 mIU/L
FSH was 1.9 range is 1.0-8.0 iu/l

on trt

missing for now i misplaced the paper ,but what i can remember is:
test was 34
estradiol was 120
TSH was less then 0.5 wich equal's nonexistent
fsh same as tsh
i think my lh was the same aswell but i cant remember with a 100 % certainty, i will update this when i get another copy



after pct

Test 21.30 range is 4.56-28.2 nmol/l
biotest still waiting for the rest of my blood work for this one
estradiol 40.6 range 20 - 240 pmol/l
my prolaction level was 11.1 and the range is 3.7-17.9
lueteinizing hormaone is 6.3 iu/l
TSH was 1.92
FSH was 1.7

some things have improved i have more or as much energy as i did well on trt , i still have libido issues and i have lost some weight and strengh but not alot , i lost my morning erections , and some of the drive i had well on trt , i do feel better then when i took the last blood work ( more time for my body maybe?) i have also started getting acne on my body within the last week ,

my pct

i ran hgc at 500 iu's a day( for 21 days) and vit e at 1000 iu's a day( for 21 days same as hcg ) with tamox at 20 mg, (for 28 or 4 weeks) was all i used in my pct ,the blood work was taken 4 days after my last dose of tamox, was hat to soon for it to be out of my system???

i am still not sure if i will go back to trt or not as it really depends on when i get my biotest results back and see where that is at before i decide what to do . as i know i still need to improve this if i decide to stay off trt

thats all i can think of right now ,if i missed something let me know and i will try my best to answer it, or if anyone has imput on my current bloodwork that would be great to
thanks

[nalm]

Bump for opinion's ???????

[Pac Man]

looks good over all, try getting tested again in a month and see where your at.

[nalm]

im going to for sure, as i also think this test might have been a little high cause of the tamoxifen ,