Ok, might've done something stupid.. need advice

**kloan** · 10-20-2008, 09:59 PM

My dad was prescribed testosterone cream (made up in dispensory) of 5mg. He decided against using it after a short while because he didn't like the idea of using something synthetic.. thinks he should just allow the body to do it's own thing... pff, whatever..

So I asked him if I could have it, and he gave it to me. I've been experiencing a lot of symptoms that pointed in the direction of low testosterone , and I wanted to see if this would help.. as an experiment, and if it did, when it was finished I planned to go see a doc/male clinic (still trying to find one in Toronto) and see where my hormone levels were at.

I'm starting to wonder though if I've jumped the gun here and cheated. I'm rather impatient, and since I was having a difficult time deciding on where to go, I figured I'd try this anyway. I've been administering 5mg 2x day (morning/night). I have noticed some improvements, however it's only been 9 days, so I'm not sure how long it takes to really notice the improvements.

I really need honest opinions here. What should I do? Should I stop now and get bloodwork done, or wait a while for the levels to normalize then get the work done? Or am I ok in continuing with the cream until it's finished and then get the work done?

I just don't want to screw anything up. I was speculating on the cause of my symptoms, though I was told 3 years ago that my free test was low, so I'm not completely off base with my assumptions. However, I want to do the right thing, so yeah.. any insight is appreciated.

**Jfew44** · 10-20-2008, 10:00 PM

Age?

**kloan** · 10-20-2008, 10:02 PM

Turning 29 in a couple weeks.

**peptide** · 10-21-2008, 06:40 AM

What are the symptoms you were trying to resolve by taking T?

**binder** · 10-21-2008, 09:09 AM

hmm...why didn't you just go talk to your doctor and get bloodwork if you were that concerned? Now you don't know what your baseline production is. You could have altered the way your body produces it therefore not allowing it to go back to normal. It's always important to get a baseline before any steroid use .

And just because previously your free test was low doesn't mean it is now. Free testosterone is also dependent on so many factors. It can fluctuate greatly throughout the day and it also will depend on how much or how regular your sleep patterns are.

**kloan** · 10-21-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by peptide

What are the symptoms you were trying to resolve by taking T?

Lethargy, fatigue, insomnia, low sex drive, depression, low self esteem, weight gain/muscle loss (if not continuously working out). Been like this for years.

binder, you're absolutely right. It was stupid to start using it before I got blood work done. Now I don't know what I'm working with. Because of that, I think I'm going to continue using it until it's finished, which will probably be around 3 weeks or so. I'll wait a couple weeks then go see a doc and get the tests. But as I mentioned, I didn't have a doc and still don't.

It's also been suggested to me that I may have low thyroid as well. That could very well be too.. but I suspected low test was also to blame. Oh well, it'll work out ok in the end.

**Nicotine** · 10-21-2008, 08:01 PM

give yourself and your body proper time to get itself in gear once done.

then ask your dr to run FULL work.

std's, petuitary/testicular function (LH FSH), free test, total test, kidney and liver functions, etc.

get every base covered.

hope you feel better soon!

**binder** · 10-22-2008, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by kloan

Lethargy, fatigue, insomnia, low sex drive, depression, low self esteem, weight gain/muscle loss (if not continuously working out). Been like this for years.

First: weight gain/muscle loss without working out is normal human physiology for the majority of the population. That isn't something that needs "treatment" other than diet change and exercise.

The rest make me think you should look into depression side effects. You even stated depression. Depression can cause all those symptoms. Talk to a physician.

**EBuck** · 10-22-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by kloan

I'm starting to wonder though if I've jumped the gun here and cheated. I'm rather impatient, and since I was having a difficult time deciding on where to go, I figured I'd try this anyway. I've been administering 5mg 2x day (morning/night). I have noticed some improvements, however it's only been 9 days, so I'm not sure how long it takes to really notice the improvements.

This seems a bit excessive regardless. My doc originally put me on the 2.5mg 1x day. And that was with LOW test numbers in my blood work.

My recommendation is that you stop applying it and getting it out of your system. Then get your doctor to do the full work up.

Also make sure you get a copy of your blood work. Don't take your doctor's word for it. My doctor originally didn't even want to run the blood work, but I insisted. When it came back he said it was a 'little' low. When I got to see the actually numbers I was below the low number in the range for my age. To me that isn't a 'little' low, it's a 'LOT' low.

As for the remaining supply of test gel. Just hang onto it until after the blood work. If your numbers are low, you have a supply you can start with immediately.

Ultimately I ended up changing doctors because I didn't feel my doctor was serving my purposes. Which is also something you may have to consider depending on how receptive your doctor is to TRT, assuming you need it.

**zaggahamma** · 10-22-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by EBuck

This seems a bit excessive regardless. My doc originally put me on the 2.5mg 1x day. And that was with LOW test numbers in my blood work.

My recommendation is that you stop applying it and getting it out of your system. Then get your doctor to do the full work up.

Also make sure you get a copy of your blood work. Don't take your doctor's word for it. My doctor originally didn't even want to run the blood work, but I insisted. When it came back he said it was a 'little' low. When I got to see the actually numbers I was below the low number in the range for my age. To me that isn't a 'little' low, it's a 'LOT' low.

As for the remaining supply of test gel. Just hang onto it until after the blood work. If your numbers are low, you have a supply you can start with immediately.

Ultimately I ended up changing doctors because I didn't feel my doctor was serving my purposes. Which is also something you may have to consider depending on how receptive your doctor is to TRT, assuming you need it.

good advice
and a good observation of how to be prepared / how to deal with some doctors

**kloan** · 10-22-2008, 05:45 PM

10mg/day is a lot? From what I've read, most men start out with 5mg/day, but eventually up it to 10mg. It equals to 100mg/week of test. enanthate .

binder, I did consider depression on it's own.. but I really think that it is another symptom and not necessarily the cause. I am almost certain now that I've experienced how the test. makes me feel. But then again, who knows... because without those test results, these are blind observations without much to base it on.

Depression does run in my family (mom's side), however I have to wonder if there's something else going on with me.

My naturopath suggested taking Maca, however that's intended to increase libido.. not sure if that increases testosterone . I wonder if I would be better off trying herbal supps such as Tomkat and Tribulus instead to see if I can increase my own natural test. before resorting to TRT, since that's for life.

I'll know soon enough.

Thanks guys for the advice.

**SWOLLL** · 10-22-2008, 07:33 PM

Didn't you have bloodwork to see your free test was low?
Why don't you go to your Dads Dr?

I agree you should have had bloodwork before treating yourself but I also think that you should have started at 5mg and if need be work up to 10mg.

I also know how bad it sucks to feel like shit all the time and how hard it can be to find a Dr. to treat you or one who even knows how to properly treat you.

The best thing to do would be stop or even finish and run a pct then go see a Dr after finishing pct when you should be back to normal or close to it.

**kloan** · 10-22-2008, 07:45 PM

I did, but that was 3 years ago. I was told my free test was low. She didn't offer any advice after that, or suggest it might have explained why I felt so shitty. I stopped seeing her because she's far. I need to find a doc closer, or find a decent men's clinic.

Fast forward, I was feeling worse than I did then.. so yeah, I was assuming it was related after reading on another thread here someone had identical symptoms and felt 100% better after starting TRT. Before reading that, I hadn't even considered it might be related to low test.

I came on here and asked if 5mg was an effective amount, because that's what my dad was doing and suggested I do. Someone explained that the typical 100mg/week enanthate dose was actually 70mg because of the ester, so that's why I've been doing 10mg/day.

Taking into consideration that this stuff will only last a month at the most total, is PCT necessary? If so, what would you recommend and for how long? I have to admit, I like how it's making me feel.. and honestly I think I'm going to finish it. So having said that, I need to know the best course of action once it's finished.

**SWOLLL** · 10-22-2008, 07:54 PM

If you suppress your test production for a month I would go with a pct.

You could probably get more help from the pct forum I really wouldn't know what to suggest.

Have you ever cycled? You need to find out the cause before you treat the problem if you can.

As far as the dose there is no dose that works for everyone you need to find out what works for you 5mg may have been plenty for you or 10mg may not be enough and comparing the gel and injectables is like apples and oranges.

**kloan** · 10-22-2008, 08:13 PM

No, never cycled. I was researching it originally which led me to now. I'm still thinking about doing a test e cycle, but I want to get a clearer idea of everything now before I attempt that.

I'll ask in the PCT forum what I should do for a month on 10mg/day.

**binder** · 10-22-2008, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by kloan

binder, I did consider depression on it's own.. but I really think that it is another symptom and not necessarily the cause. I am almost certain now that I've experienced how the test. makes me feel. But then again, who knows... because without those test results, these are blind observations without much to base it on.

Depression does run in my family (mom's side), however I have to wonder if there's something else going on with me.

well, it's hard to say. Using the testosterone could be psychosomatic. Kind of like a placebo effect. You might feel better because you THINK you should feel better with an increase in testosterone due to the gel.

**kloan** · 10-22-2008, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by binder

well, it's hard to say. Using the testosterone could be psychosomatic. Kind of like a placebo effect. You might feel better because you THINK you should feel better with an increase in testosterone due to the gel.

lol, I was wondering that myself... one thing I have noticed is that I'm much MUCH less irritable than I was before. I feel much calmer. I was on the verge of a breakdown before.. very on edge and short fused. Aside from the cream, nothing else has changed.. and I actually just got laid off as well, which normally would have me stressed right the f*** out.. but I feel good.

Damn, I don't know what to do. I'm stubborn, so I don't know if I can make myself quit while I'm ahead.

**SWOLLL** · 10-22-2008, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by binder

well, it's hard to say. Using the testosterone could be psychosomatic. Kind of like a placebo effect. You might feel better because you THINK you should feel better with an increase in testosterone due to the gel.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

This is why bloodwork needs to be done so you can see results and not just think your getting them.

**kloan** · 10-22-2008, 11:08 PM

k, i'll knock it off.. how long should i wait before getting the work done?

**binder** · 10-23-2008, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by kloan

lol, I was wondering that myself... one thing I have noticed is that I'm much MUCH less irritable than I was before. I feel much calmer. I was on the verge of a breakdown before.. very on edge and short fused. Aside from the cream, nothing else has changed.. and I actually just got laid off as well, which normally would have me stressed right the f*** out.. but I feel good.

Damn, I don't know what to do. I'm stubborn, so I don't know if I can make myself quit while I'm ahead.

so you were MORE CALM on testosterone ? Not a common side effect. More likely to increase aggression/anger.

**kloan** · 10-23-2008, 12:15 PM

The way I see it, irritability and aggression are two different things.

I still feel somewhat aggressive in nature, but in a more controlled way. Anyway, I'm pretty sure such low levels wouldn't cause the kind of aggression the higher dosed cycles would.

Plus, I've read numerous times how when people are on they have a sense of well-being. Trust me, this isn't a placebo effect. I know my body, and know how to distinguish between what I think I'm feeling from what I'm actually feeling.

Why do I get the feeling you're trying to disprove that it's having any effect on me? Is that to try to say that I don't actually need it, and at these amounts I wouldn't notice a difference if my test levels were normal? If so, then I can tell you right now that I have noticed a difference, so that should be some indication as to what's going on.

**zaggahamma** · 10-23-2008, 04:25 PM

absolutely more calm on normal levels of test....makes perfect sense...i hate the reference to steroids and anger

**binder** · 10-26-2008, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by binder

well, it's hard to say. Using the testosterone could be psychosomatic. Kind of like a placebo effect. You might feel better because you THINK you should feel better with an increase in testosterone due to the gel.

Originally Posted by kloan

The way I see it, irritability and aggression are two different things.

I still feel somewhat aggressive in nature, but in a more controlled way. Anyway, I'm pretty sure such low levels wouldn't cause the kind of aggression the higher dosed cycles would.

Plus, I've read numerous times how when people are on they have a sense of well-being. Trust me, this isn't a placebo effect. I know my body, and know how to distinguish between what I think I'm feeling from what I'm actually feeling.

Why do I get the feeling you're trying to disprove that it's having any effect on me? Is that to try to say that I don't actually need it, and at these amounts I wouldn't notice a difference if my test levels were normal? If so, then I can tell you right now that I have noticed a difference, so that should be some indication as to what's going on.

Nowhere did I say it WAS the placebo effect. Don't ask the question unless you want people to answer you to the fullest.

**kloan** · 10-26-2008, 04:15 PM

I was asking if using it was going to cause me problems in the long run. Not if what I was experiencing was a placebo effect. Whether what I am experiencing is a placebo or not is not really relevant.

**FallenWyvern** · 10-26-2008, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by binder

so you were MORE CALM on testosterone? Not a common side effect. More likely to increase aggression/anger.

I am more calm on test.

**SWOLLL** · 10-27-2008, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

absolutely more calm on normal levels of test....makes perfect sense...i hate the reference to steroids and anger

I have in the past done massive amounts of test and never had the roid rage

But I have a friend who at 500mg a week is the poater boy for roid rage so I do believe it has that effect on certain people...Maybe its a placebo effect

Kloan you shouldn't underestimate the power of your mind, I watched a documentary in college about the physical effects of placebos and other psychological suggestions.

Not that I am saying thats what is going on with you but its nothing blow off as ridiculous as it might sound.

**kloan** · 10-27-2008, 11:52 PM

Oh I know the power of the mind is a very powerful thing and can make the body do many things.. I'm not arguing that. I just needed advice not speculation.

Anyway, I stopped using it for now. I noticed I was starting to get fat in areas I've never had fat gain before, which immediately made me suspect my estrogen levels were out of whack.. I have already been paranoid about gyno before, just from working out.. so instead of gambling the risk, I decided to stop and get my blood work done in a couple weeks, then I'll know where I'm at.

Only thing that worries me now is that if my estrogen levels are in fact elevated, stopping the test will make things worse.. I have had a small outbreak of acne, but that sometimes happened anyway when working out. In any case, I need to find a doc.

**binder** · 10-28-2008, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by kloan

.
I really need honest opinions here. What should I do? Should I stop now and get bloodwork done, or wait a while for the levels to normalize then get the work done? Or am I ok in continuing with the cream until it's finished and then get the work done?

Originally Posted by kloan

Oh I know the power of the mind is a very powerful thing and can make the body do many things.. I'm not arguing that. I just needed advice not speculation.

"ad⋅vice
/ædˈvaɪs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ad-vahys] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice. "

reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advice

But what does the dictionary know except the definition of what you asked for. Don't ask for "advice" if you don't want an opinion.

**4347true** · 10-28-2008, 11:44 AM

test makes me happy, Most people that are assholes on test, are assholes off test.Some people are just assholes, sorry if that was off topic.

**kloan** · 10-28-2008, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by binder

"ad⋅vice
/ædˈvaɪs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ad-vahys] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice. "

reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advice

But what does the dictionary know except the definition of what you asked for. Don't ask for "advice" if you don't want an opinion.

You know what man, you're a tool.

Wow, you can quote and bold sentences. Congratulations. How about focusing on the shit that matters, the QUESTIONS themselves.

Let's summarize:

I posted:
"What should I do? Should I stop now and get bloodwork done, or wait a while for the levels to normalize then get the work done? Or am I ok in continuing with the cream until it's finished and then get the work done?"

And you offered great wisdom:
"why didn't you just go talk to your doctor and get bloodwork if you were that concerned?" - Great, thanks for that. Insightful.

Oh, and then you suggested that maybe I'm just depressed and that I should look into that.... again, irrelevant to my posted questions.

Just when I thought I might get some real advice, "Using the testosterone could be psychosomatic. Kind of like a placebo effect. You might feel better because you THINK you should feel better with an increase in testosterone due to the gel."

Gee, that's even more helpful than the first two posts. So now it's all in my head. Even though I'm feeling real physical changes, they must be imaginary because "so you were MORE CALM on testosterone? Not a common side effect. More likely to increase aggression/anger."

Huh, guess almost everyone else that is on testosterone must also be experiencing psychosomatic effects.

"Nowhere did I say it WAS the placebo effect. Don't ask the question unless you want people to answer you to the fullest."

Sorry, where did I ever ask in my original post if it was a placebo? I was asking for opinions and advice about what I should do about the use of the cream. That's it. Not if I should've gone to my doctor or not, or if it was depression or if it could've been a placebo effect.

You win the award for posting the most irrelevant comments in this thread. Congratulations. Care to finish off with another useless post? Oh right, the definition of 'advice'.

Way to go man, you're a big help.

Tell me something binder, by the very definition you posted, what exactly did you offer as advice that would have been something I could act on that was related in any way to what I was originally asking?

**SWOLLL** · 10-28-2008, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by 4347true

test makes me happy, Most people that are assholes on test, are assholes off test.Some people are just assholes, sorry if that was off topic.

Not off topic and so true.

Kloan if it was helping you still need the bloodwork so at the least you can get it prescribed from the dr. I don't think it would have hurt to finish but if you were getting signs of gyno stopping was the safe bet or order some liquidex.

It would have been best to get the bloodwork prior to starting but its to late now I would run some pct then see the dr a few weeks later, Then if your lucky and your Dr. has a ****ing clue you should be able to get it prescribed.

I would tell the dr I good results with the gel.

Atleast Binder wasn't quoting his PDR to you...lol

**kloan** · 10-28-2008, 08:32 PM

Thanks Swoll..

I'm trying to find myself a good doc right now so I can get the tests done. I know of a great men's clinic that is good for TRT, but they're unfortunately about an hours drive from where I live and I don't have a car.. so it'd be a pain for follow ups.

I was going to continue with the cream during this CKD I just started, but without arimidex or liquidex, I didn't want to risk the possibility of estrogen related sides getting worse, if that's what I am experiencing. Unfortunately, I'm cash strapped this week until I can settle my work/final pay situation.

Anyway, it was an experiment. Now to get the proof and hopefully either a way to naturally increase my test levels or get on TRT.

**SWOLLL** · 11-01-2008, 12:12 AM

[QUOTE=kloan;4275668]Thanks Swoll..

I'm trying to find myself a good doc right now so I can get the tests done. I know of a great men's clinic that is good for TRT, but they're unfortunately about an hours drive from where I live and I don't have a car.. so it'd be a pain for follow ups.

An hour isn't far for a good trt dr as I am sure you will find out I am having hell finding a decent one. Try the lef and you may get lucky.

Good luck