Starting TRT - some questions

**testmess** · 03-09-2009, 10:41 PM

Ive been symptomatic for years. The last year has been hell. Im 41.
Ive been unlucky in that ive only seen bad doctors for much of this time.
My test levels have been falling for years. Ive been collecting my blood results.
Finally, they have fallen low enough that my newest doc is putting me on TRT.

My test levels have looked like this:
429 ng/dl 3 years ago <--- was symptomatic at this level
336 ng/dl 2 years ago -- got worse
273 nd/dl 1 month ago -- horribly worse - wanted to die
Did androgel for 1 month
213 ng/dl today

My questions are:

1) Why does everyone ask for a lab range? ng/dl is a unit of measure, no? It has to mean the same thing no matter where it comes from right? How could 300 ng/dl not be the same as 300 ng/dl from any source???

2) My test DROPPED since I started on 5grams of androgel. I immediately started feeling better when I started it. Then started feeling wrecked again in the last week. My guess is I my levels shot up, then my natural production shut down, and now im below my starting point. Can that happen in just 1 month???

3) If I started feeling like shit, even when my test was at 429 ng/dl 3 years ago, does this simply mean that my test numbers when I was young were probably way higher? Did I possibly have a high base line? Shoulndt 429 be fine for most people?

My doc doubled the dose and is putting me on the 10gram androgel now and will test again in 6 weeks.
Really dont want to go to shots, but if this doesnt work, ill do it.
The last year of my life has been hell and not worth living, my symptoms are so bad. I was barely functional and thought id get fired from my job.

I experienced my first morning wood in many many years during the first week on ando and my brain fog cleared up within 3 days. Felt my first boost of energy in years instead of the usual extreme tiredness every day. So this holds promise.

Any feedback is welcomed.

**ZonaDave** · 03-09-2009, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

Ive been symptomatic for years. The last year has been hell. Im 41.
Ive been unlucky in that ive only seen bad doctors for much of this time.
My test levels have been falling for years. Ive been collecting my blood results.
Finally, they have fallen low enough that my newest doc is putting me on TRT.

My test levels have looked like this:
429 ng/dl 3 years ago <--- was symptomatic at this level
336 ng/dl 2 years ago -- got worse
273 nd/dl 1 month ago -- horribly worse - wanted to die
Did androgel for 1 month
213 ng/dl today

My questions are:

1) Why does everyone ask for a lab range? ng/dl is a unit of measure, no? It has to mean the same thing no matter where it comes from right? How could 300 ng/dl not be the same as 300 ng/dl from any source???

2) My test DROPPED since I started on 5grams of androgel. I immediately started feeling better when I started it. Then started feeling wrecked again in the last week. My guess is I my levels shot up, then my natural production shut down, and now im below my starting point. Can that happen in just 1 month???

3) If I started feeling like shit, even when my test was at 429 ng/dl 3 years ago, does this simply mean that my test numbers when I was young were probably way higher? Did I possibly have a high base line? Shoulndt 429 be fine for most people?

My doc doubled the dose and is putting me on the 10gram androgel now and will test again in 6 weeks.
Really dont want to go to shots, but if this doesnt work, ill do it.
The last year of my life has been hell and not worth living, my symptoms are so bad. I was barely functional and thought id get fired from my job.

I experienced my first morning wood in many many years during the first week on ando and my brain fog cleared up within 3 days. Felt my first boost of energy in years instead of the usual extreme tiredness every day. So this holds promise.

Any feedback is welcomed.

hi testmess! welcome to the club!

we're the same age an i know exactly what you're going through. i felt like crap last year and TRT changed my life.

1) ranges are important for any measurement or the measurement is just a number. for example, if i said my Total T was 700 you might think that's a good level. if the range was 200-800 that would be a good level but if the range was 200-1500 i'd be mid-range. each lab is different.

2) yes, it's not uncommon for your levels to drop on the initial low dose. it sounds like your dose was enough to shut you down but not make you feel good. the same thing happened to me when i started Testim. it just means you have to increase your dose.

3) the T level that "you" function best at is individual and you have to find yours. i was in the mid 500's when i started getting symptoms of low T.

you're just starting out and you're on the right track so keep pushing forward. also, make sure you get your estradiol (E2) checked. guys our age usually have low T and high E2 which is a double whammy. even when your T's come up to a good range you'll feel like it's low if you have high E2.

**testmess** · 03-10-2009, 06:52 AM

Thanks for the info. Ive heard that range explanation before, but it still doesnt make sense to me since it contains units of measure.

Stating that nanograms per decilitre is different from different labs, would sorta be like saying my 11 inch long foot would show up as 10 inches on one brand of rules and 12 inches on another brand of ruler. So when I tell people my foot was 11 inches, they would ask me what brand of ruler I used so it made sense. Haha.
I could understand that what each lab considers low/high could be different, but not the actual measurement.

If we both have exactly 300 nanograms of test per decilitre in our blood, then thats that. The lab source cant possibly matter. Where am I going wrong???

Anyway.... I guess I have to wait and see what 10grams of andro does for me. Hope it works.

**flatscat** · 03-10-2009, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by testmess

Thanks for the info. Ive heard that range explanation before, but it still doesnt make sense to me since it contains units of measure.

Stating that nanograms per decilitre is different from different labs, would sorta be like saying my 11 inch long foot would show up as 10 inches on one brand of rules and 12 inches on another brand of ruler. So when I tell people my foot was 11 inches, they would ask me what brand of ruler I used so it made sense. Haha.
I could understand that what each lab considers low/high could be different, but not the actual measurement.

If we both have exactly 300 nanograms of test per decilitre in our blood, then thats that. The lab source cant possibly matter. Where am I going wrong???

Anyway.... I guess I have to wait and see what 10grams of andro does for me. Hope it works.

Look at it this way - each lab's range is from the thousands/millions of blood draws at that lab and with that lab's testing protocol. Now if you tested every man's t levels at the same lab - you could use just the actual measurement. We are not talking about inches, but nanograms so it is a fact that there will be differences in results between every lab due to there own procedures and methods.

This is just one more confusing aspect to getting things dialed in. I would just use your initial numbers to develope a baseline (you will refer back to these many times). Use future results to get dialed in using how you feel as the major determining factor.

Peace

**Testomaster** · 03-10-2009, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by testmess

Ive been symptomatic for years. The last year has been hell. Im 41.
Ive been unlucky in that ive only seen bad doctors for much of this time.
My test levels have been falling for years. Ive been collecting my blood results.
Finally, they have fallen low enough that my newest doc is putting me on TRT.

My test levels have looked like this:
429 ng/dl 3 years ago <--- was symptomatic at this level
336 ng/dl 2 years ago -- got worse
273 nd/dl 1 month ago -- horribly worse - wanted to die
Did androgel for 1 month
213 ng/dl today

My questions are:

1) Why does everyone ask for a lab range? ng/dl is a unit of measure, no? It has to mean the same thing no matter where it comes from right? How could 300 ng/dl not be the same as 300 ng/dl from any source???

2) My test DROPPED since I started on 5grams of androgel. I immediately started feeling better when I started it. Then started feeling wrecked again in the last week. My guess is I my levels shot up, then my natural production shut down, and now im below my starting point. Can that happen in just 1 month???

3) If I started feeling like shit, even when my test was at 429 ng/dl 3 years ago, does this simply mean that my test numbers when I was young were probably way higher? Did I possibly have a high base line? Shoulndt 429 be fine for most people?

My doc doubled the dose and is putting me on the 10gram androgel now and will test again in 6 weeks.
Really dont want to go to shots, but if this doesnt work, ill do it.
The last year of my life has been hell and not worth living, my symptoms are so bad. I was barely functional and thought id get fired from my job.

I experienced my first morning wood in many many years during the first week on ando and my brain fog cleared up within 3 days. Felt my first boost of energy in years instead of the usual extreme tiredness every day. So this holds promise.

Any feedback is welcomed.

Hello my friend,

I've been on Androgel for 40 days too, I've posted my experience here :

What is your HRT regimen?

First of all , I think you're not taken 5 or 10 grams of Androgel but 50/100 mg. wich is very,very different.

I had the same problem...I started with 40 mg. a day and first week was ok , then nothing ! I increased dosage to 80 mg. a day and I felt a bit better.
Then I checked blood and I had what you see in the post above .

To be honest I didn't feel too much improvement with the gel , I know that many endos are prescribing a lot this product but I think it's because pharmaceutical companies are pushing a lot on it ; There's a lot of marketing work involved , probably because gel is better marketable than injections .
I don't know the price of Gel in US but in Europe 100 mg. a day it will cost you a fortune....

I switched on andriol , took it for a month and situation was even worse .
4 tablets a day did nothing, it's like taking water.

I also wanted to stay away from shots because it reminds me the abuse I did when I competed years ago

but I think I can't avoid it .

I'll start with 200Test. enanth. next week , ( one shot every 10 days) and I will see how...

I will post my feedback on it.

**FallenWyvern** · 03-10-2009, 06:50 PM

1. The ranges are more about your age than the lab. The bottom number is supposed to be the bottom 5% tile for your age and the top number is the top 5% tile for your age based on what the lab sees and the way that they test for it.

2. Your natural levels are being suppressed and your dose is likely to be too low.

3. Most people feel best above 600-700.

**testmess** · 03-10-2009, 09:47 PM

Can someone answer my #2 question??? The part about this happening within 1 month. Thx

2) My test DROPPED since I started on 5grams of androgel . I immediately started feeling better when I started it. Then started feeling wrecked again in the last week. My guess is I my levels shot up, then my natural production shut down, and now im below my starting point. Can that happen in just 1 month???

PS: the androgel packet does say 5 *grams* on it. Its not 5 grams of test, just 5 grams of gel.

**testmess** · 03-10-2009, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by FallenWyvern

1. The ranges are more about your age than the lab. The bottom number is supposed to be the bottom 5% tile for your age and the top number is the top 5% tile for your age based on what the lab sees and the way that they test for it.

2. Your natural levels are being suppressed and your dose is likely to be too low.

3. Most people feel best above 600-700.

If my natural production is shut down, and the 5gram packets of androgel are only getting me to 213, and we assume that the 10gram packets get me to double that, I will still be only at 426 which is lower than what I was at when I first started getting symptoms. This isnt looking good

**Testomaster** · 03-10-2009, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by FallenWyvern

2. Your natural levels are being suppressed and your dose is likely to be too low.

This is exactly what my endo said .

During the first week the androgel was added to my endogenous testosterone (wich was still there) so I felt good.

After a week, my endogenous levels started to decline for the suppression caused by the gel and that is where the problems started.

When the natural levels are suppressed (usually after a week) the external effect (50 mg. daily) is too low to replace the endogenous testo, so the testicle shot down but the replacement therapy is not enough.

This is what happened to me.

Increasing dosage might be the answer.

**ZonaDave** · 03-10-2009, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

If my natural production is shut down, and the 5gram packets of androgel are only getting me to 213, and we assume that the 10gram packets get me to double that, I will still be only at 426 which is lower than what I was at when I first started getting symptoms. This isnt looking good

i did answer your question. it's common for your levels to drop initially because that is a starting dose to see how you respond. some people do well on that but most probably don't. it doesn't take long before your own production shuts down.

T levels are not linear with dosages so you can't assume that two packets will get you to 426. that dose could get you to 700, you don't know until you try it for a few weeks and retest.

i started out on Testim (1 tube/day) which is 50mg of T per day. after a month on that dose my total T went from 366 to mid 200's. then i went to 2 tubes/day and my total T went to the high 600's.

you just have to increase your dose. are you able to get androgel in a pump? it would be alot easier to adjust your dosage. also, have you considered a compound?

**zaggahamma** · 03-11-2009, 12:24 AM

10G OR 15G OF androgel I remember those days...lots of fun smearing everyday...couldnt wait for that...detecting a lil sarcasm...you'll get tired of it....and also learn to love the shots...aint nuthin to it...i've been on for over 3 years and have recently been doing well with a shot every 10 days...thats no mess on my skin and a single shot 3 times a month...i also felt great on your gel doseage but reccommend the shot....good luck and welcome...glad you're feeling better

**testmess** · 03-11-2009, 07:40 AM

ZonaDave, I was still looking for the answer to the "can this happen within 1 month" part of my question. Everyone missed that specific sub-question.

Now its been answered. Natural can shut down in just one week.... dang

Thanks for all the info, its been of great help. We'll see what the 10gram packets do for me.
I REALLY HATE SHOTS. So crossing fingers. 10 grams will be alot of goo to spread around each day. But better than having to drive somewhere for a shot. Or do most people self administer?

**flatscat** · 03-11-2009, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by testmess

ZonaDave, I was still looking for the answer to the "can this happen within 1 month" part of my question. Everyone missed that specific sub-question.

Now its been answered. Natural can shut down in just one week.... dang

Thanks for all the info, its been of great help. We'll see what the 10gram packets do for me.
I REALLY HATE SHOTS. So crossing fingers. 10 grams will be alot of goo to spread around each day. But better than having to drive somewhere for a shot. Or do most people self administer?

I hated shots too before I started. Now I am addicted to plunging that needle into my glute. It is like Christmas every Monday. I don't know of anyone that is on trt for very long that does not self inject. Can you see yourself driving to the doc's office every week for the rest of your life? They will let you self inject.

I started right off on test c and shots - so I can't comment on the gel or cream.

I was on 200mg test c/week. With that dose, I really didn't feel a let down after my natty test went away.

**ZonaDave** · 03-11-2009, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

ZonaDave, I was still looking for the answer to the "can this happen within 1 month" part of my question. Everyone missed that specific sub-question.

Now its been answered. Natural can shut down in just one week.... dang

Thanks for all the info, its been of great help. We'll see what the 10gram packets do for me.
I REALLY HATE SHOTS. So crossing fingers. 10 grams will be alot of goo to spread around each day. But better than having to drive somewhere for a shot. Or do most people self administer?

i agree. when i was on 2 tubes of Testim per day it was alot of goo to rub on each day. if i had stayed on gels i would have gone with a compounded gel. they can bump up the T dose without increasing the volume of gel.

**GottaGetIt** · 03-12-2009, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by flatscat

I hated shots too before I started.
It is like Christmas every Monday.

Sunday morning and Wednesday nights for me.
Not so bad after the first few times.

**testmess** · 03-13-2009, 08:22 AM

Im now experiencing the T-crash

I started on double packets yesterday with my new scrip.
But I cant seem to get out of bed in the morning. Going into work between 10-11am, I just cant get up. I feel like DEATH in the morning

I think my test is probably under 200 now.

I think im going to try triple packets for the first week for an extra boost to hurry the process because I cant function right now. 2 in the morning, and 1 at night. 3 packets is too much to slather around all at once.

Think that is a good idea?

**ZonaDave** · 03-13-2009, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

Im now experiencing the T-crash

I started on double packets yesterday with my new scrip.
But I cant seem to get out of bed in the morning. Going into work between 10-11am, I just cant get up. I feel like DEATH in the morning

I think my test is probably under 200 now.

I think im going to try triple packets for the first week for an extra boost to hurry the process because I cant function right now. 2 in the morning, and 1 at night. 3 packets is too much to slather around all at once.

Think that is a good idea?

you should give the double pack a few days to kick in and see how that goes.

**testmess** · 03-13-2009, 02:58 PM

This is a huge mind-**** for me. The worst TEASE ive ever experienced.
I started on 5gram packets, and started feeling good and had some energy for the first time in 5+ years. I actually did a 3 mile run like it was nothing during week #2. That was physically impossible before I started TRT. I could barely walk a mile.
Then my natural TEST shut down and I crashed. Im going nuts right now. I saw the light, and then it was evilly turned off

**ZonaDave** · 03-13-2009, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

This is a huge mind-**** for me. The worst TEASE ive ever experienced.
I started on 5gram packets, and started feeling good and had some energy for the first time in 5+ years. I actually did a 3 mile run like it was nothing during week #2. That was physically impossible before I started TRT. I could barely walk a mile.
Then my natural TEST shut down and I crashed. Im going nuts right now. I saw the light, and then it was evilly turned off

take a deep breath and relax. you're just starting out and this is normal. when you started TRT you were adding to existing T but now it's replaced so you have to increase the dose to bring you up to a good level.

**ecsaaron** · 03-14-2009, 10:49 AM

I tested out at 109 then 129.I didnt have enough energy to even think about suicide(just joking).I got lucky and found a good doc and now doin 1 cc twice a week.goin back in may for blood work .My point is everyone is different on the amount of test to get them where the feel human again,no one is the same.

**testmess** · 03-14-2009, 09:03 PM

I felt a bit less wrecked this morning. The last few morning have been very hard to get up from.
Today, could get up fine, just felt tired instead of destroyed. Crashed around 4pm with body aches and tiredness. Hopefully tomorrow it will be a little bit better and so on.

After reading tons of posts on experiences here, it seems most people end up on shots and are most happy with those. Has anyone had really good long term experience with androgel ?

I read the 3-year study on androgel, and it was pretty amazing that people continued to get better every year for the entire 3 years. I guess when your body is starved for TEST, it does a lot of damage that takes a long time to reverse.

**ZonaDave** · 03-15-2009, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

I felt a bit less wrecked this morning. The last few morning have been very hard to get up from.
Today, could get up fine, just felt tired instead of destroyed. Crashed around 4pm with body aches and tiredness. Hopefully tomorrow it will be a little bit better and so on.

After reading tons of posts on experiences here, it seems most people end up on shots and are most happy with those. Has anyone had really good long term experience with androgel ?

I read the 3-year study on androgel, and it was pretty amazing that people continued to get better every year for the entire 3 years. I guess when your body is starved for TEST, it does a lot of damage that takes a long time to reverse.

oh ya, alot of guys do very well on gels. you have to get the dose right for a good T level and you'll be feeling alot better.

my doc put me on Testim to start with but the dose was too low. i started on 1 tube/day which is 50mg. you only absorb about 10% so i was only getting 5mg of T per day. the average healthy guy produces 7-10mg/day. so basically i was starting off at a disadvantage. 5mg/day X 7 days = 35mg/week.

my new doc started me off on T shots and HCG . the starting T dose was 100mg/week and only 70% is available so i was getting 70mg/week plus the boost from the HCG.

as you can see it's not fair to compare the two because of the dosages. i'm sure it would have been alot different if i was on 2 tubes/day of Testim but i switched doctors before we went any further. i switched doctors because he didn't want to put me on 2 tubes/day. i asked him about the math above and he couldn't give me an answer so i found a new doc.

if other people have experiences like mine then i can understand why gels get a bad rap.

**testmess** · 03-15-2009, 02:44 PM

So I read that androgel has a 10% absorption rate.
So even using 2 packets a day, thats 10mg of TEST actually absorbed.
Thats 70mg a week.

Doesnt a TEST injection run at 70%? (Errr... 70% TEST, 30% ethanate?) So a 100mg injection a week also works out to 70mg of TEST a week?

Therefore, two 5 gram packets of androgel = 1 TEST-C/E shot/ week? Yes?

Man im tired today..... hope this starts kicking in soon. I did nothing but lay on the couch all weekend

**ZonaDave** · 03-15-2009, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

So I read that androgel has a 10% absorption rate.
So even using 2 packets a day, thats 10mg of TEST actually absorbed.
Thats 70mg a week.

Doesnt a TEST injection run at 70%? (Errr... 70% TEST, 30% ethanate?) So a 100mg injection a week also works out to 70mg of TEST a week?

Therefore, two 5 gram packets of androgel = 1 TEST-C/E shot/ week? Yes?

Man im tired today..... hope this starts kicking in soon. I did nothing but lay on the couch all weekend

yes, you have that correct. it's alot of gel to rub on your arms everyday and this is why alot of guys go to compounded gels or shots.

**testmess** · 03-18-2009, 11:41 AM

It seems the one advantage gel would have, is that it keeps your levels more even, since you get a little each day.

**testmess** · 03-20-2009, 10:57 AM

When I first started the 5gram androgel , I felt a pretty immediate effect and started getting the morning wood again after many years of it missing after about a week.

My TEST crashed in week 3-4 on 5 gram, lower than when I started.

But its been a week on 10gram, and the morning wood has not returned. Im feeling better now, but not feeling anything in the morning.

Does it take longer the 2nd time around after a crash?
Or could I be producing to much E which is hogging all the receptors? Is that possible this early? The sex drive is very low right now.

**ZonaDave** · 03-20-2009, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by testmess

When I first started the 5gram androgel , I felt a pretty immediate effect and started getting the morning wood again after many years of it missing after about a week.

My TEST crashed in week 3-4 on 5 gram, lower than when I started.

But its been a week on 10gram, and the morning wood has not returned. Im feeling better now, but not feeling anything in the morning.

Does it take longer the 2nd time around after a crash?
Or could I be producing to much E which is hogging all the receptors? Is that possible this early? The sex drive is very low right now.

it's hard to tell what's going on without bloodwork. shot and gel delivery methods have their pros and cons:

with gels you don't have to worry as much about E2 but high DHT can become a problem.

with shots you don't have to worry as much about DHT but high E2 can become a problem.

**testmess** · 03-20-2009, 10:24 PM

Wont have bloodwork for another 5 weeks.
But if I had to guess.... I probably just need to be a little more patient.
My energy has been improving.

**testmess** · 04-06-2009, 02:23 PM

The morning wood is back.

How many weeks does it take before your body adjusts and your test levels out, typically???

**ZonaDave** · 04-06-2009, 04:12 PM

from my own personal experience it takes about a month after i make a T change. when i make an AI dosage change i notice it within a week or so.

**tyward** · 04-06-2009, 08:32 PM

I've had similiar experiences as the rest of you, although I'm 58 years old. It also takes me about a month to start feeling like everything is in sync. My initial total test levels have always been 600 -700, but I knew something was off, because of tiredness, aches and pains, etc. I am currently on 130 mg a week, plus Adex at .25 ml EOD. I don't have any sides on this level of test, but with the Adex I seem to have more of the positives that I used to get from TRT when I was younger. (in my 40's LOL) Stick with it and you will find what is just right for you.

**zaggahamma** · 04-06-2009, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by tyward

I've had similiar experiences as the rest of you, although I'm 58 years old. It also takes me about a month to start feeling like everything is in sync. My initial total test levels have always been 600 -700, but I knew something was off, because of tiredness, aches and pains, etc. I am currently on 130 mg a week, plus Adex at .25 ml EOD. I don't have any sides on this level of test, but with the Adex I seem to have more of the positives that I used to get from TRT when I was younger. (in my 40's LOL) Stick with it and you will find what is just right for you.

So you've been on trt for 15 plus years?

**ZonaDave** · 04-07-2009, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by tyward

I've had similiar experiences as the rest of you, although I'm 58 years old. It also takes me about a month to start feeling like everything is in sync. My initial total test levels have always been 600 -700, but I knew something was off, because of tiredness, aches and pains, etc. I am currently on 130 mg a week, plus Adex at .25 ml EOD. I don't have any sides on this level of test, but with the Adex I seem to have more of the positives that I used to get from TRT when I was younger. (in my 40's LOL) Stick with it and you will find what is just right for you.

are you on HCG ?

**tyward** · 04-07-2009, 08:26 PM

No, although that may be what I wrote. I've been on TRT for almost 6 six years, with the last 3 years on HRT (the addition of HGH). I include an AI on an EOD basis, but I think I am going to go to a twice a week now that every thing seems sorted out again. I went off everything six months ago because of kidney problems brought on by years on a powerful NSAID. I use HCG when needed, especially when I was forced off. My kidneys seem to be back, although some of the tests are in the low normal range. I have used AAS off and on since 1976 and many of those years were without any PCT. That said I have always followed what my body would tell me and I feel (well now, LOL) healthy on or off. That said, my body at 58 seems happier on certainly with regards to recuperation and keeping muscle size. I consider myself a long term experiment that has in general gone very well and I hope to continue for many more years