HRT/TRT and Deca and ED

[Warrior1700]

I have been on Deca along with Cyp. Average dose of 300 Cyp/100 deca, for 4 years now. Was on 400/200 for 6 months. I dont know if its the Deca or if it's just age/psychological issues. I have troubles with or without Cialis/Viagra, I can get great wood sometimes and sometimes not. Even if I get wood, it sometimes goes away after a few moments of performance. I was off of everything for a few months and crashed on my test level. Felt like crap and had no Libido/energy.

I have since for the last 8 weeks been on my new regime of 300 Cyp and 100 deca along with 500 IU HCG Sub q, 2 days b 4 and then 1 day b 4 my Cyp/Deca injection. Still having ED issues so I dint kow if its the Deca or not.

My main questions are, does anyone know if 100 mg Deca is even enuf to cause sides, or for that matter ANY benefits. Should I just drop the Deca all together?

[ZonaDave]

deca can be known to cause ED hence the term "deca dick" but it sounds like you have high E2. the doses of all the components you're on are too high for TRT and that's most likely causing your issues. are you taking an AI?

[OCTOBER-2009]

I started my HRT at 200 Test-C & 200 Deca a week and had no problems. In fact, I felt like a rock star. As long as your running Test with Deca there should be no "ED" problems. Sorry Warrior but it sounds like it's psychological to me. With that much "juice" in your system your should be horny & hard all day long!

[Ntpadude]

I have been on Deca along with Cyp. Average dose of 300 Cyp/100 deca, for 4 years now. Was on 400/200 for 6 months. I dont know if its the Deca or if it's just age/psychological issues. I have troubles with or without Cialis/Viagra, I can get great wood sometimes and sometimes not. Even if I get wood, it sometimes goes away after a few moments of performance. I was off of everything for a few months and crashed on my test level. Felt like crap and had no Libido/energy.

I have since for the last 8 weeks been on my new regime of 300 Cyp and 100 deca along with 500 IU HCG Sub q, 2 days b 4 and then 1 day b 4 my Cyp/Deca injection. Still having ED issues so I dint kow if its the Deca or not.

My main questions are, does anyone know if 100 mg Deca is even enuf to cause sides, or for that matter ANY benefits. Should I just drop the Deca all together?

I'd try dropping the deca. Are you doing it back alley style (on your own) or with a doctor? I am on teststerone only... had gone thru the gamit with every dosing ranging from 100 mg every 2 weeks to 400 mg every 2 weeks. I found the ideal is 200 mg every 2 weeks, and once after 2 shots to take a week off and then back on the every 2 weeks for the libido. My libido is good but ability to get an erection is best at the 200 mg a week and declines dramatically at higher or lower doses. Not all HRT docs have the estrogen and prolactin levels examined. WHen the estrodiol become elevated, this can interfere with your ability to achieve erection even with cialis although I really like Levitra aka vardenafil. It gets me hard regardless of current estrodiol levels and very fast acting. Levitra has almost no side effects compared to viagra or ciali for me - most notably viagra and cialis causes me fierce heartburn.

[NEMESIS RR]

I have been on Deca along with Cyp. Average dose of 300 Cyp/100 deca, for 4 years now. Was on 400/200 for 6 months. I dont know if its the Deca or if it's just age/psychological issues. I have troubles with or without Cialis/Viagra, I can get great wood sometimes and sometimes not. Even if I get wood, it sometimes goes away after a few moments of performance. I was off of everything for a few months and crashed on my test level. Felt like crap and had no Libido/energy.

I have since for the last 8 weeks been on my new regime of 300 Cyp and 100 deca along with 500 IU HCG Sub q, 2 days b 4 and then 1 day b 4 my Cyp/Deca injection. Still having ED issues so I dint kow if its the Deca or not.

My main questions are, does anyone know if 100 mg Deca is even enuf to cause sides, or for that matter ANY benefits. Should I just drop the Deca all together?

Why such a high dose? have you had blood work to check estrogen levels? That is were your problem will be. You have been doing a low dose cycle for 4 years. I am surprised you lasted this long without problems.

[Warrior1700]

deca can be known to cause ED hence the term "deca dick" but it sounds like you have high E2. the doses of all the components you're on are too high for TRT and that's most likely causing your issues. are you taking an AI?

I understand that the Cyp is a bit high and really kind of a low dose constant cycle...I am getting some BB benefits as well.

Yea I have read bout "deca dick" on here in the other areas, but those guys are on like 300-400 mg Deca or more and some without Test. My last total serum estrogen level was 151 pg/ml referance range 130 or less, so a lil high. Not taking any AI...I actually saw a urologist recently and he does even test for estrogen, said it will be high because of the estrogeneous test supplements anyway...that 151 was in March 09 by my vitality Doc...

So I dunno if 10 mg Deca is even worth it...?

[Warrior1700]

I started my HRT at 200 Test-C & 200 Deca a week and had no problems. In fact, I felt like a rock star. As long as your running Test with Deca there should be no "ED" problems. Sorry Warrior but it sounds like it's psychological to me. With that much "juice" in your system your should be horny & hard all day long!

Yea man, I think I tend to agree with u somewhat, since even Viagra and or Cialis works only hit or miss and when it does I even loose it after a short while sometimes. I jsut wonder if Deca is adding to the issue or not. I am other wise healy as a horse...Lol

[Warrior1700]

I'd try dropping the deca. Are you doing it back alley style (on your own) or with a doctor? I am on teststerone only... had gone thru the gamit with every dosing ranging from 100 mg every 2 weeks to 400 mg every 2 weeks. I found the ideal is 200 mg every 2 weeks, and once after 2 shots to take a week off and then back on the every 2 weeks for the libido. My libido is good but ability to get an erection is best at the 200 mg a week and declines dramatically at higher or lower doses. Not all HRT docs have the estrogen and prolactin levels examined. WHen the estrodiol become elevated, this can interfere with your ability to achieve erection even with cialis although I really like Levitra aka vardenafil. It gets me hard regardless of current estrodiol levels and very fast acting. Levitra has almost no side effects compared to viagra or ciali for me - most notably viagra and cialis causes me fierce heartburn.

Im getting the Deca from my vitality Doc. So drop the deca u think?

Sounds like u are ultimately getting 200 mg weekly now after trying different dosing?

The urologist I finally saw(for ED mostly, I get my Test and Deca from my vitality Doc) and he didnt test for Estrogen. My prolactin level was 8.0 ng/ml ref range 1.6-18.7.

Estrogen can cause ED, but I also understand that we dont want estrogen to be too low either.

Never tried levitra. The urologist actually put me on the low dose daily Cialis.

[Warrior1700]

Why such a high dose? have you had blood work to check estrogen levels? That is were your problem will be. You have been doing a low dose cycle for 4 years. I am surprised you lasted this long without problems.

Yea so I've heard, referance low dose cycle...Cuz I have a liberal Doc and I was looking for Body Building benefits as well...

I have been having ED issues for years now, started with the pro-hormones, before I was getting TRT...Just not sure if there is a hormonal relation to my issues. I listed above that my estrogen level was 151 back in March.

Really trying to get to a good dose now for HRT/TRT I think and try to keep my muscle gain as well...

[ZonaDave]

there's a big misconception about the quantity that guys need to get good results in the gym. i think this comes for the "more is better" mentality, or if a guy knows his buddy is taking a certain dose he can take more and get bigger, faster...

the problem most guys don't understand is when large doses are taken and E2 gets elevated it occupies the receptors rendering most of the T useless. the Total T is high but the Free T isn't and that's the good stuff.

alot of people think guys on heavy cycles are big, strong, horny sex machines 24/7 but that's rarely the case. most guys on heavy cycles have severe ED but they overlook that because they look good.

it's never a good thing when T dose are too high because your body will work very hard to dump it to avoid poisoning. when large doses of adex are taken to keep E2 down the T gets converted to DHT and a med like propecia is needed. it's a viscious circle and nothing good can come out of it.

when it comes to hormones slow and steady wins the race.

[Warrior1700]

there's a big misconception about the quantity that guys need to get good results in the gym. i think this comes for the "more is better" mentality, or if a guy knows his buddy is taking a certain dose he can take more and get bigger, faster...

the problem most guys don't understand is when large doses are taken and E2 gets elevated it occupies the receptors rendering most of the T useless. the Total T is high but the Free T isn't and that's the good stuff.

alot of people think guys on heavy cycles are big, strong, horny sex machines 24/7 but that's rarely the case. most guys on heavy cycles have severe ED but they overlook that because they look good.

it's never a good thing when T dose are too high because your body will work very hard to dump it to avoid poisoning. when large doses of adex are taken to keep E2 down the T gets converted to DHT and a med like propecia is needed. it's a viscious circle and nothing good can come out of it.

when it comes to hormones slow and steady wins the race.

So Zona, what are you basically saying? I should cut back on my Test and drop the Deca? What is considered elevated E2(I am assuming E2 is Estrogen)? As stated above my estrogen was 151 in March.

So then ED is fairly common among Gear users wether its a heavy cycle, low dose cycle or even TRT?

What is DHT?

I am basically happy with where I am at, BB wise, I am 46, 5'10ish 203 lbs with bout 9% Body fat. I really just wanna be able to build some mass and maintain it. Id like to bear some fruit from all the hard work in the gym.

So maybe cut back the Test a bit, drop the Deca completely and keep eating like a pig?

[ZonaDave]

it really depends on where that protocol puts your levels. i've heard of guys on 200mg/week and it puts them close to the top of the T range while for others it puts them way over. when i was on 200mg/week my TT was 2440 which is too high to maintain long term.

your E2 is very high so it's obvious that your body is trying to get rid of the extra T. it's like filling a glass of water, once it's full you can't put anymore in it and it spills over. your goal it to fill the glass without spilling.

when your T is too high it gets converted to E2 (estradiol). really high or really low E2 is bad and must be corrected.

for us older guys it's a little more difficult because for some reason our bodies want low T and high E2 so TRT contradicts what our hormones want to do naturally. your first step is to get your T in a good range so you don't need alot of arimidex to control E2.

DHT is Dihydrotestosterone. when T is high it converts to E2 and/or DHT so just blocking E2 isn't the answer. when you use adex to block E2 your DHT will go high and cause problems similar to high E2.

as far as deca goes, it's usually only added to a TRT protocol for joint issues.

i know what you mean about getting the extra benefits of T in the gym. don't worry about that, you can get your levels in a good range and still see good results in the gym. you're 46 and you'll have the T level of a young very healthy guy without a bunch of negative side affects.

can you post your last blood results with ranges?

[OCTOBER-2009]

Are you on HRT with a doctor, or are you running this on your own? It sounds like your running this on your own to me. Why would the Doc not prescribe an anti E & a DHT blocker?

I see your on HCG, Good!

You need to add either Arimidex (Estrogen reducer) or Nolvadex (Blocks estrogen receptor sites) when running this much AAS.

You should also take propecia or proscar to protect your prostate and reduce DHT levels.

[Warrior1700]

Are you on HRT with a doctor, or are you running this on your own? It sounds like your running this on your own to me. Why would the Doc not prescribe an anti E & a DHT blocker?

I see your on HCG, Good!

You need to add either Arimidex (Estrogen reducer) or Nolvadex (Blocks estrogen receptor sites) when running this much AAS.

You should also take propecia or proscar to protect your prostate and reduce DHT levels.

I am getting this thru a Doc. He's a vitality Dr. Not a Urologist or Endo. I dont I think he just does mosly what I ask altough he did prescribe Arimidex. I havnt even heard of the DHT issue until Zona brought it up. Is there a way to check that.? PSA maybe? Just didnt wanna start adding yet another compound to the mix...I am due for a blood test since I have been on this new regime for bout 8 weeks.

Should I continue the HCG throughout? I heard some guys run it consistantly.

[ZonaDave]

your doc can run a specific test for DHT on your next test.

when i was on 200mg/week my DHT was high also and my doc asked if i wanted propecia but i felt the same way you do and didn't want to add more meds to the mix so i reduced my dose to 140mg/week. now my DHT is looking pretty good. when i blocked my E2, my DHT went really high so it was obvious that my body was going to get rid of the excess T one way or another. i'm not exactly sure what happens to the excess when you block E2 and DHT but it can't be good.

i'm not an advocate of running cycles because alot of guys lose most of what they gained during the cycle (been there, done that) and the only thing they have to show for it is health issues.

IMO you're much better off on a lower dose long term.

i use to run HCG with my old doc but the new one doesn't feel i need it. i don't feel any better or worse without it. right now the only meds i'm on for TRT are T Cyp, Adex, DHEA.

[Warrior1700]

when your T is too high it gets converted to E2 (estradiol). really high or really low E2 is bad and must be corrected.

for us older guys it's a little more difficult because for some reason our bodies want low T and high E2 so TRT contradicts what our hormones want to do naturally. your first step is to get your T in a good range so you don't need alot of arimidex to control E2.

DHT is Dihydrotestosterone. when T is high it converts to E2 and/or DHT so just blocking E2 isn't the answer. when you use adex to block E2 your DHT will go high and cause problems similar to high E2.

as far as deca goes, it's usually only added to a TRT protocol for joint issues.

i know what you mean about getting the extra benefits of T in the gym. don't worry about that, you can get your levels in a good range and still see good results in the gym. you're 46 and you'll have the T level of a young very healthy guy without a bunch of negative side affects.

can you post your last blood results with ranges?

I didnt even know there was a DHT issue? Is that easily checked, PSA, or what? As stated above, I was prescribed Arimidex but didnt wanna start anything else at this point...

Here is a post I wrote on another thread regarding my blood work and status over several months trying to "self diagnose" if you will and then also seeing a Urologist..................

Update on my blood work...

So basically here is my last few months history. On 03/04/09 my Total Test was 533 ref range 245-1836 NG/DL. Free Test was 14.3 ref rance 7.2-23.0 PG/ML.

On 05/11/09 Total Test was 553 ref range 225-972 NG/DL but Free Test was 54.3 ref range 12.0-25.0 PG/ML.

06/06/09 I had my last Test /Deca shot 300mg/100mg respectively.

On 07/20/09 my Total Test was 33.9 and Free Test 3.3

On 07/2409 I started HCG, 500 I/Us 2x a week for 4 weeks.

On 08/18/09 my Total Test was 76 and free Test was 1.5 Also I started my HRT back @ 300mg Test Cyp and 100mg Deca weekly.

I will be getting a blood test in the next couple weeks to see where I am at now, most likely from the Vitality Dr, which has a different panel and ranges.


Here is the full blood report(from the urologist) from 05/11/09...before I stopped everything on 06/06/09.

FSH <0.4 ref value 0.7-11.1 mlu/ml
LH <0.5 " 0.8-7.6 miu/ml
Prolactin 8.0 " 1.6-18.7 ng/ml
SHEG 11 " 13-71 nmol/l
TEST 553.0 " 225-972 ng/dl
FR TEST 54.3 " 12-25 pg/ml
TSH(3rd gen) 1.85 " 0.50-4.60 uu/ml
TT4 6.1 " 4.5-12 ug/dl
T-Uptake 39 " 24-35 %

He said he doesnt test for Estrogen....

[ZonaDave]

he better start testing for at least estradiol. this isn't just "kind of important", it's "vital" to the success of your TRT protocol.

if he won't test for E2 you can always use an online lab like: http://www.privatemdlabs.com/

so your Total T was only 553 (225-972) on the protocol you listed? if your TT is that low on that much stuff your body might be using it up really fast. if so, you might want to try splitting your dose into two shots per week.

you're getting your stuff from a US pharmacy right?

[Warrior1700]

he better start testing for at least estradiol. this isn't just "kind of important", it's "vital" to the success of your TRT protocol.

if he won't test for E2 you can always use an online lab like: http://www.privatemdlabs.com/

so your Total T was only 553 (225-972) on the protocol you listed? if your TT is that low on that much stuff your body might be using it up really fast. if so, you might want to try splitting your dose into two shots per week.

you're getting your stuff from a US pharmacy right?

Yes, that is correct...553 on the listed protocol. A missed dose maybe here or there but generaly yes.

Well, I use the Vitality Dr for the Inj, so they will test for Estrogen if I ask...

I am getting the Inj at the office so I dont see the vial. Speaking of which, one reason I have considered dropping the Deca is so that I can just get a script for the Test and do it myself(Deca is aparently under scrutiny scripts)...then if needed I can split the dose.

[ZonaDave]

wow, 553 is pretty low for being on 300mg of T per week. splitting your shots might help that. it seems like your body is going through the T pretty fast so more frequent shots might help.

there are three types of estrogen...E1 (Estrone), E2 (Estradiol), E3 (Estriol) so make sure he at least tests for E2 (Estradiol).

an easy way to remember them is E1 has a "one" in the name, E2 has "di" in the name and E3 has "tri" in the name.

doctors will prescribe deca for joint issues but that can also be a sign of low E2.

for the most part, guys don't need deca as part of TRT.

when your doc adds Arimidex to your protocol you'll see your T numbers go up quite a bit.

[Warrior1700]

wow, 553 is pretty low for being on 300mg of T per week. splitting your shots might help that. it seems like your body is going through the T pretty fast so more frequent shots might help.

there are three types of estrogen...E1 (Estrone), E2 (Estradiol), E3 (Estriol) so make sure he at least tests for E2 (Estradiol).

an easy way to remember them is E1 has a "one" in the name, E2 has "di" in the name and E3 has "tri" in the name.

doctors will prescribe deca for joint issues but that can also be a sign of low E2.

for the most part, guys don't need deca as part of TRT.

when your doc adds Arimidex to your protocol you'll see your T numbers go up quite a bit.

Ok...Well, Im gonna get a blood test then on Tues, and have him write me a script for the Test (its time for me to start pinning myself, instead of going 20+ minutes to the office once a week)

I have Arimidex already, just havnt started taking it yet. The not wanting to add more to the mix ya know...

The Deca was mostly for added ASS benefits but @ 100 mg weekly I dunno if its worth it or not and I dont think I wanna up it for fear of more sides. I can drop that and then I can do everything on my own with scripts.

[ZonaDave]

most guys on TRT use cypionate and adex. adex is hard to avoid especially as men get older. for some reason the T converts to E easier.

i remember blasting in my early 20's and feeling great. i had lots of strength, put on lots of muscle and was horny all the time. things have changed and i'm not sure what it would be like to blast now.

it's work just to get the "cruise" part figured out without trying to "blast".

it's a good move to start taking your own shots. it's something you'll be doing for the rest of your life so it more productive to do them yourself. i've been having great success with 27g - 5/8" insulin needles if larger needles become an issue for you.

[Tjohn6231]

I have been on Deca along with Cyp. Average dose of 300 Cyp/100 deca, for 4 years now. Was on 400/200 for 6 months. I dont know if its the Deca or if it's just age/psychological issues. I have troubles with or without Cialis/Viagra, I can get great wood sometimes and sometimes not. Even if I get wood, it sometimes goes away after a few moments of performance. I was off of everything for a few months and crashed on my test level. Felt like crap and had no Libido/energy.

I have since for the last 8 weeks been on my new regime of 300 Cyp and 100 deca along with 500 IU HCG Sub q, 2 days b 4 and then 1 day b 4 my Cyp/Deca injection. Still having ED issues so I dint kow if its the Deca or not.

My main questions are, does anyone know if 100 mg Deca is even enuf to cause sides, or for that matter ANY benefits. Should I just drop the Deca all together?

Hey man. I had the exact same problem late in my test only cycle. I could get really hard, but after a few minutes of sex, I would lose about half of it. It fvckin sux.
I think it was a high estrogen issue for me because I started using the liquidex (liquid arimidex) from ar at 0.25 mg EOD, and within a week, my hardness got a lot better. It was almost a miracle drug for me. I think its worth a shot for ya. Ive been using it for a few weeks now, and I no longer have the problem. I wore the wife out last night too. SHe kept telling me that she was cramping in her hips...lol. Try it, and let me know if it works.

[Warrior1700]

most guys on TRT use cypionate and adex. adex is hard to avoid especially as men get older. for some reason the T converts to E easier.

i remember blasting in my early 20's and feeling great. i had lots of strength, put on lots of muscle and was horny all the time. things have changed and i'm not sure what it would be like to blast now.

it's work just to get the "cruise" part figured out without trying to "blast".

it's a good move to start taking your own shots. it's something you'll be doing for the rest of your life so it more productive to do them yourself. i've been having great success with 27g - 5/8" insulin needles if larger needles become an issue for you.

Yea I have been on Cyp, and will ask for it o my script. I think I will try to get to that cruise point then and manage this a lil better/closer now that I am understanding.

Guess I will see where I am at with the blood work on Tues(results a week later tho) after 2 months of this regime.

Yea I was reading about your pinning in another thread about sub q Test...was gonna iquire when I started so yet another factor...Lol

I was pinning HCG in my quad with a 23g 1" until I went back to sub q with an insuline pin.

[Warrior1700]

Hey man. I had the exact same problem late in my test only cycle. I could get really hard, but after a few minutes of sex, I would lose about half of it. It fvckin sux.
I think it was a high estrogen issue for me because I started using the liquidex (liquid arimidex) from ar at 0.25 mg EOD, and within a week, my hardness got a lot better. It was almost a miracle drug for me. I think its worth a shot for ya. Ive been using it for a few weeks now, and I no longer have the problem. I wore the wife out last night too. SHe kept telling me that she was cramping in her hips...lol. Try it, and let me know if it works.

Hmmm ok. I do have oral Arimidex but nto sure what dose/frequency...

Also I am gonna have blood work on Tuesand ask for E2 to see where I am at again.

Glad things are working better again...

It does suc
I was going at it last nite like a horse but then ...well u know. Im horny most of the time(baring any outside distractions, tired, drunk etc) but just cant always complete the deed. Do you mind saying how old you are?

Thanks for the input.

[ZonaDave]

Hmmm ok. I do have oral Arimidex but nto sure what dose/frequency...

Also I am gonna have blood work on Tuesand ask for E2 to see where I am at again.

Glad things are working better again...

It does suc
I was going at it last nite like a horse but then ...well u know. Im horny most of the time(baring any outside distractions, tired, drunk etc) but just cant always complete the deed. Do you mind saying how old you are?

Thanks for the input.

you can try .5mg 2x/week as a start to see how you feel on that dose. it's strong stuff so it doesn't take much to knock your E2 down. if that's not enough, you can try .5mg EOD. that's usually more than enough for anyone on TRT.

[Warrior1700]

you can try .5mg 2x/week as a start to see how you feel on that dose. it's strong stuff so it doesn't take much to knock your E2 down. if that's not enough, you can try .5mg EOD. that's usually more than enough for anyone on TRT.

At this point should I wait until my blood results that I get on Tues come back to see where I am since being back on TRT for 8 weeks?

[ZonaDave]

At this point should I wait until my blood results that I get on Tues come back to see where I am since being back on TRT for 8 weeks?

sure, what's a few more days. can you post your results when you get them?

[lovbyts]

2 things, give the AI/liquidex a shot and also you stated that you just got back on the test 8 weeks ago. Give it a little longer to really kick in and you might be fine but in the mean time I would consider doing the AI.

[Warrior1700]

sure, what's a few more days. can you post your results when you get them?

I sure will post the results....

[Warrior1700]

2 things, give the AI/liquidex a shot and also you stated that you just got back on the test 8 weeks ago. Give it a little longer to really kick in and you might be fine but in the mean time I would consider doing the AI.

Correct, restarted on 08/18/09 after being off of everything for 10 weeks prior. I did start the HCG on 0724/09

Is the AI/Liquidex available by prescription?

[Warrior1700]

Blood draw yesterday, results nest tues and I will advise. I am only checking total test, free test and E2 for now...jsut to see where those level are at after 9 weeks 300 cyp/ 100 deca weekly...

Also, I just started with the Arimidex,

Opinions on dose, (wait till my E2 result comes back)? I think Zona said .5 2x weekly....sound right?

[ZonaDave]

Blood draw yesterday, results nest tues and I will advise. I am only checking total test, free test and E2 for now...jsut to see where those level are at after 9 weeks 300 cyp/ 100 deca weekly...

Also, I just started with the Arimidex,

Opinions on dose, (wait till my E2 result comes back)? I think Zona said .5 2x weekly....sound right?

you can start the adex now. i'm on 5.mg 2x/week and so far it's doing a good job of keeping my E2 down.

[Warrior1700]

Here are my latest numbers... 300mg Test weekly and 100mg Deca and B12 and HCG 500 IU 2x weekly b 4 Test Inj since 08/18/09...

Total Test 888 ref range 245-1836 NG/DL
Free Test 23.2 " " 7.2-23.0 PG/ML

Estradiol 63 " " 13-54 pg/ml

I also just got a script for Test Cyp for 300 mg weekly, and B12, no deca. But now my Ins wants a prior authorization to fiil the Test... Jerks.

[maxtrin]

it really depends on where that protocol puts your levels. i've heard of guys on 200mg/week and it puts them close to the top of the T range while for others it puts them way over. when i was on 200mg/week my TT was 2440 which is too high to maintain long term.

your E2 is very high so it's obvious that your body is trying to get rid of the extra T. it's like filling a glass of water, once it's full you can't put anymore in it and it spills over. your goal it to fill the glass without spilling.

when your T is too high it gets converted to E2 (estradiol). really high or really low E2 is bad and must be corrected.

for us older guys it's a little more difficult because for some reason our bodies want low T and high E2 so TRT contradicts what our hormones want to do naturally. your first step is to get your T in a good range so you don't need alot of arimidex to control E2.

DHT is Dihydrotestosterone. when T is high it converts to E2 and/or DHT so just blocking E2 isn't the answer. when you use adex to block E2 your DHT will go high and cause problems similar to high E2.

as far as deca goes, it's usually only added to a TRT protocol for joint issues.

i know what you mean about getting the extra benefits of T in the gym. don't worry about that, you can get your levels in a good range and still see good results in the gym. you're 46 and you'll have the T level of a young very healthy guy without a bunch of negative side affects.

can you post your last blood results with ranges?

I have never heard on this forum that someone on testosterone had problem with elevated DHT levels - problems like low libido, ED, mood swings ....
Can you get me some stuff for reading or something?

[ZonaDave]

I have never heard on this forum that someone on testosterone had problem with elevated DHT levels - problems like low libido, ED, mood swings ....
Can you get me some stuff for reading or something?

sure, here's what i found from a quick google search:

http://www.dihydrotestosterone.org/

most experts claims DHT causes hair loss. high levels of T can be converted to E2 and/or DHT, so by blocking one the other can increase. this is why doctors prescribe AI and in some cases a DHT blocker. if your E2 level is too high as a result of excessive T and you use an AI like Airimidex to block the conversion, you risk the elevating DHT. if your body is trying to get rid of the excessive T it will find a way.

when my T level was high (2440), my E2 and DHT were also very high. my doc asked me if i wanted a DHT blocker but i chose to drop my weekly dose from 200mg to 140mg. now my levels look alot better.

the goal for successful TRT is to get T levels nicely elevated without excessive conversion. unfortunately for us older guys we have a harder time dealing with the elevated T so our bodies tend to convert easier. as we get older our T naturally drops and E2 goes up so TRT is a direct contradiction to this process.

[Warrior1700]

Here are my latest numbers... 300mg Test weekly and 100mg Deca and B12 and HCG 500 IU 2x weekly b 4 Test Inj since 08/18/09...

Total Test 888 ref range 245-1836 NG/DL
Free Test 23.2 " " 7.2-23.0 PG/ML

Estradiol 63 " " 13-54 pg/ml

I also just got a script for Test Cyp for 300 mg weekly, and B12, no deca. But now my Ins wants a prior authorization to fiil the Test... Jerks.

Zona, did u get a look at my latest numbers? Or anyone for that matter?

[ZonaDave]

Zona, did u get a look at my latest numbers? Or anyone for that matter?

i must have missed that post. this is a prime example of how different everyone is. your protocol would be a a cycle for most but it only puts your TT at mid-range.

i don't have enough experience with TRT to explain where all that T is going but i've heard of some guys using it up really fast and they have to take more frequent shots to get their levels higher.

what is the reason why your doc put you on deca? are you having joint issues?

your E2 looks high so some adex will definately lower that and at the same time increase your T's. splitting your shots into 2/week will also help lower your E2. i would recommend starting the adex out at .25mg 2x/week. it's some strong stuff and doesn't take alot to lower E2.

[Warrior1700]

i must have missed that post. this is a prime example of how different everyone is. your protocol would be a a cycle for most but it only puts your TT at mid-range.

i don't have enough experience with TRT to explain where all that T is going but i've heard of some guys using it up really fast and they have to take more frequent shots to get their levels higher.

what is the reason why your doc put you on deca? are you having joint issues?

your E2 looks high so some adex will definately lower that and at the same time increase your T's. splitting your shots into 2/week will also help lower your E2. i would recommend starting the adex out at .25mg 2x/week. it's some strong stuff and doesn't take alot to lower E2.

I figured u missed it cuz u were waiting for my new results.


I was getting Deca for joints but also BB benefits, but am gonna stop it now.

I just got a script for Test but insurance is having a fit so far about filling it without prior authorization and the nurse said that if they see that my total is mid range they might not approve it, yet they will pay for an office visit and still allow it weekly, go figure.

If I get the script filled, I will try 2 x weekly with the test and drop the deca ll together either way.

I started Adex @ .05 mg 2x week. (Kind of a small pill to try to break in 4s also)

And when asked, the Doc said he didnt want me to use Adex yet...ugggg, but I started it, I still have some as well as a refill. How long do I continue the Adex?

[ZonaDave]

I figured u missed it cuz u were waiting for my new results.


I was getting Deca for joints but also BB benefits, but am gonna stop it now.

I just got a script for Test but insurance is having a fit so far about filling it without prior authorization and the nurse said that if they see that my total is mid range they might not approve it, yet they will pay for an office visit and still allow it weekly, go figure.

If I get the script filled, I will try 2 x weekly with the test and drop the deca ll together either way.

I started Adex @ .05 mg 2x week. (Kind of a small pill to try to break in 4s also)

And when asked, the Doc said he didnt want me to use Adex yet...ugggg, but I started it, I still have some as well as a refill. How long do I continue the Adex?

i think splitting the shots up will help quite a bit. you're on alot of T for having a mid-range level. splitting it will prevent a high spike in T which will in turn reduce the amount of T:E conversion. it should also give you stabil levels throughout the week.

i'm assuming you meant to type .5mg 2x/week (half of a tab). your E2 level is elevated but this dose might be too much for you, especially if you split your shots up. my E2 level was a little lower than yours (59) when i started adex and .5mg 2x/week dropped it too low so now i'm on .25mg 2x/week to see how that works out. it doesn't take long to feel the affects of adex. as long as my E2 isn't too high or too low for a long period of time i can feel a change within 2-3 days.

[Warrior1700]

i think splitting the shots up will help quite a bit. you're on alot of T for having a mid-range level. splitting it will prevent a high spike in T which will in turn reduce the amount of T:E conversion. it should also give you stabil levels throughout the week.

i'm assuming you meant to type .5mg 2x/week (half of a tab). your E2 level is elevated but this dose might be too much for you, especially if you split your shots up. my E2 level was a little lower than yours (59) when i started adex and .5mg 2x/week dropped it too low so now i'm on .25mg 2x/week to see how that works out. it doesn't take long to feel the affects of adex. as long as my E2 isn't too high or too low for a long period of time i can feel a change within 2-3 days.

Yes I meant .5 thank you. Ok, I will reduce it to .25 2x/week. How long before I get another blood test to see how well I am regulated things.

I'm not sure if I can feel the effects like you say you can. Not sure what I should feel like I guess anymore since my numbers have been all over the map for awhile. I have been making gains the last couple of months in the gym, but that also comes from consistancy and eating like I have been.

Then there is the whole DHT that you brought up, sounds like that might be something to look @ with my next blood test??