Hcg pro's / cons(if any)

[zaggahamma]

Please let me know your experience(s) with hcg with your trt. Goods bads uglies...whatever....i'm thinking of adding it in but i've been on trt for almost 4 years and wonder if too late.

please be detailed as you can...thanks!

[ZonaDave]

i was on it for a year when i first started TRT but the only thing it did for me was increase my E2. i've been off it for several months now and i don't feel any different.

[zaggahamma]

i was on it for a year when i first started TRT but the only thing it did for me was increase my E2. i've been off it for several months now and i don't feel any different.

interesting...so you ran it from the beginning so hard to compare except the short 2 months off...thanks zona...

[flatscat]

I ran it when I first started and I had E2 problems as well. Now doc prescribed 1000iu's day three after inj - will see if it spikes the E again. Couldn't really tell a difference when I was on the first time. Will keep you posted. Testomaster has some interesting comments in another thread about the irony of taking it while the t suppresses the axis. I think I tend to agree in most cases - but her I go again taking it. I did bump my adex up to .5 three times a week.

[ZonaDave]

interesting...so you ran it from the beginning so hard to compare except the short 2 months off...thanks zona...

it didn't make sense to me to try and get T out of a unreliable source of T while i'm replacing.

your balls produce more hormones than just T but if they aren't doing a good job with T then it's hard to say if they are producing enough of the other hormones.

[zaggahamma]

I ran it when I first started and I had E2 problems as well. Now doc prescribed 1000iu's day three after inj - will see if it spikes the E again. Couldn't really tell a difference when I was on the first time. Will keep you posted. Testomaster has some interesting comments in another thread about the irony of taking it while the t suppresses the axis. I think I tend to agree in most cases - but her I go again taking it. I did bump my adex up to .5 three times a week.

the e2 was a problem and you were running adex? you mention bumping it up to .5 but not wut u were running b4 and/or when....

and i dont understand the axis suppressing...i just wanna know what good it has done and/or bad or neither....really am suprised only 2 ppl chimed

[Vettester]

JPK, as mentioned on a previous thread, I will be doing a 10 day straight HCG-ATHON in about 3 weeks. I've got one more shot of test this Friday, then off for 2 weeks, then 10 fun filled days with the small pins & HCG. I'll start a thread when I begin the program and give you the details.

I'll be paying close attention to how I'm feeling right about the end of the first two weeks of being off of Test Cyp, then to see if I can sustain my levels with the HCG.

[zaggahamma]

JPK, as mentioned on a previous thread, I will be doing a 10 day straight HCG-ATHON in about 3 weeks. I've got one more shot of test this Friday, then off for 2 weeks, then 10 fun filled days with the small pins & HCG. I'll start a thread when I begin the program and give you the details.

I'll be paying close attention to how I'm feeling right about the end of the first two weeks of being off of Test Cyp, then to see if I can sustain my levels with the HCG.

yes..cool...thanks.....that will be one scenario where you'll have stopped the test and then run hcg for 3 weeks alone...post up everything you notice or learn from bloodwork please

anyone else?

[zaggahamma]

bump

[flatscat]

the e2 was a problem and you were running adex? you mention bumping it up to .5 but not wut u were running b4 and/or when....

and i dont understand the axis suppressing...i just wanna know what good it has done and/or bad or neither....really am suprised only 2 ppl chimed

Ok,

adex .25 twice/week for the most part (but I have played around with it)

And, in theory when you are putting t into your body, your system shuts down it's own ability to produce it because it already has enough due to what you injected or rubbed on. This includes what your pit. and testicals produce or are told what to produce.

Now as Zona says, there are other hormones that are produced along with the t that are supposed to keep everything in check, but for this conversation I am not sure how much the HCG helps with those. Guess I am somewhat lacking in lab results and experience about that subject. I think the hcg will cause your boys to produce some extra t, but also a disproportionate amount of that t converting to E2, but an overall increase of total t none the less.

It always seemed to me that if you were taking t, an AI, and HCG (like i am right now by the way) that you had three chemicals that would effect your t numbers along with E2 and the others that are increased due to conversion of the t.

Know that you have been around a long time, and not trying to tell you new things JP, these are all just my opinion.

[Warrior1700]

I have been on HCG now for 10 weeks or so now...500 ius 2x weekly, the 1st inj 2 days before test inj and the the day right before tet inj. Now, according to my latest blood, my E2 is high...64 I think I is. But as Zona said on one of my threads, @ 300 Test Cyp weekly my free test maybe shoud be higher than 888. SO not to sure where the test is going..also not sure now if the test or the HCG is cousing the higher E2. I started Adex last week so I will check blood again some time soon.

As far as the HCG other wise, I have noticed that my boys are staying dropped and (im guessing) normal size. Where bfore the HCG there was atrophy. Just dunno now if the HCG is contributing to the higher E2.

[zaggahamma]

Ok,

adex .25 twice/week for the most part (but I have played around with it)

And, in theory when you are putting t into your body, your system shuts down it's own ability to produce it because it already has enough due to what you injected or rubbed on. This includes what your pit. and testicals produce or are told what to produce.

Now as Zona says, there are other hormones that are produced along with the t that are supposed to keep everything in check, but for this conversation I am not sure how much the HCG helps with those. Guess I am somewhat lacking in lab results and experience about that subject. I think the hcg will cause your boys to produce some extra t, but also a disproportionate amount of that t converting to E2, but an overall increase of total t none the less.

It always seemed to me that if you were taking t, an AI, and HCG (like i am right now by the way) that you had three chemicals that would effect your t numbers along with E2 and the others that are increased due to conversion of the t.

Know that you have been around a long time, and not trying to tell you new things JP, these are all just my opinion.

no...i absolutely appreciate the insight...if i knew it all already i wouldnt have posted the questions

thanks flatscat

[zaggahamma]

I have been on HCG now for 10 weeks or so now...500 ius 2x weekly, the 1st inj 2 days before test inj and the the day right before tet inj. Now, according to my latest blood, my E2 is high...64 I think I is. But as Zona said on one of my threads, @ 300 Test Cyp weekly my free test maybe shoud be higher than 888. SO not to sure where the test is going..also not sure now if the test or the HCG is cousing the higher E2. I started Adex last week so I will check blood again some time soon.

As far as the HCG other wise, I have noticed that my boys are staying dropped and (im guessing) normal size. Where bfore the HCG there was atrophy. Just dunno now if the HCG is contributing to the higher E2.

thanks...exactly the kind of infos i'm looking for.....so da boys better but da e2 is higher than used to be? notice anything else from these 10 weeks...better/worse/bout same?

[ZonaDave]

adding HCG to your protocol will definately have an affect on your E2 because it will most likely increase your T. the reason i say "most likely" is because if you're primary then your balls probably aren't doing a great job of making T in the first place.

there are two schools of thought on adding HCG.

1) it keeps your balls producing T and other hormones such as DHEA.

2) your balls aren't a reliable source of T or other hormones so HCG isn't effective for primary guys.

i think HCG can keep your balls going to some degree even if you're primary but most guys still have to add T, DHEA, pregnenolone, etc...

i'm on the fence about HCG because it seems odd to me to add an expensive and sometimes hard to get component like HCG when you still have to supplement the other hormones.

some guys say the hormones produced by your balls are a better source but what did guys on TRT do before HCG came on the scene?

[Warrior1700]

thanks...exactly the kind of infos i'm looking for.....so da boys better but da e2 is higher than used to be? notice anything else from these 10 weeks...better/worse/bout same?

Ya, the boys feel/look good...more asthetic(sp) I suppose...

E2 is higher, but not sure if its the T converting or from HCG. Doc didnt wana prescribe more HCG now so we will see what the effects will be.

Hard to say about anything else, I was off of everything for quite awhile, then when I restarted, I went with Test, Deca and HCG...

Still having the dreaded ED issues...Horny but still issues.

[Warrior1700]

adding HCG to your protocol will definately have an affect on your E2 because it will most likely increase your T. the reason i say "most likely" is because if you're primary then your balls probably aren't doing a great job of making T in the first place.

there are two schools of thought on adding HCG.

1) it keeps your balls producing T and other hormones such as DHEA.

2) your balls aren't a reliable source of T or other hormones so HCG isn't effective for primary guys.

i think HCG can keep your balls going to some degree even if you're primary but most guys still have to add T, DHEA, pregnenolone, etc...

i'm on the fence about HCG because it seems odd to me to add an expensive and sometimes hard to get component like HCG when you still have to supplement the other hormones.

some guys say the hormones produced by your balls are a better source but what did guys on TRT do before HCG came on the scene?

Im not sure whether I am primary or not...

Not sure whether I wanna try and keep HCG as a constant supplement either, specially if its adding to my high E2. (or if the Doc doesnt wanna prescribe it...Lol)

[zaggahamma]

adding HCG to your protocol will definately have an affect on your E2 because it will most likely increase your T. the reason i say "most likely" is because if you're primary then your balls probably aren't doing a great job of making T in the first place.

there are two schools of thought on adding HCG.

1) it keeps your balls producing T and other hormones such as DHEA.

2) your balls aren't a reliable source of T or other hormones so HCG isn't effective for primary guys.

i think HCG can keep your balls going to some degree even if you're primary but most guys still have to add T, DHEA, pregnenolone, etc...

i'm on the fence about HCG because it seems odd to me to add an expensive and sometimes hard to get component like HCG when you still have to supplement the other hormones.

some guys say the hormones produced by your balls are a better source but what did guys on TRT do before HCG came on the scene?

Where did u say "most likely"? in a diff post?

so u add a few more thoughts...to just boom adding hcg and your huevs get plump again....

[ZonaDave]

Where did u say "most likely"? in a diff post?

so u add a few more thoughts...to just boom adding hcg and your huevs get plump again....

i didn't say "most likely" in a different post, i said it that one.

"adding HCG to your protocol will definately have an affect on your E2 because it will most likely increase your T. the reason i say "most likely" is because if you're primary then your balls probably aren't doing a great job of making T in the first place."

i was clarifying why is said adding HCG will "most likely" increase your T because it's not guarenteed to increase it much if you're primary.

i'm not sure what this means:
"so u add a few more thoughts...to just boom adding hcg and your huevs get plump again..."

can you clarify that?

[zaggahamma]

i didn't say "most likely" in a different post, i said it that one.

"adding HCG to your protocol will definately have an affect on your E2 because it will most likely increase your T. the reason i say "most likely" is because if you're primary then your balls probably aren't doing a great job of making T in the first place."

i was clarifying why is said adding HCG will "most likely" increase your T because it's not guarenteed to increase it much if you're primary.

i'm not sure what this means:
"so u add a few more thoughts...to just boom adding hcg and your huevs get plump again..."

can you clarify that?

i meant "so you're saying its not just as simple as taking the hcg and the boys are back." ....

maybe you were saying they will...but T most likely will raise and possibly E2...

[Warrior1700]

i meant "so you're saying its not just as simple as taking the hcg and the boys are back." ....

maybe you were saying they will...but T most likely will raise and possibly E2...

I think T might raise even with TRT because HCG is supposed to help your boys stay down and normal size as they are still slightly producing T?

Therefore that would also in turn cause an even further increase in E2?? Uggggg

[zaggahamma]

I think T might raise even with TRT because HCG is supposed to help your boys stay down and normal size as they are still slightly producing T?

Therefore that would also in turn cause an even further increase in E2?? Uggggg

ok...well...one topic i wanted to discuss that definately hasnt is the fact that i've been doing trt for 4 years straight...no breaks...no tying to pct cuz trt is for life and i needed it cuz i wasnt making optimum levels myself.......is it too late to run hcg, get the boys back in size and olympic swimmer productive as they were b4 trt or close to it or will i just have to try and see

[Warrior1700]

ok...well...one topic i wanted to discuss that definately hasnt is the fact that i've been doing trt for 4 years straight...no breaks...no tying to pct cuz trt is for life and i needed it cuz i wasnt making optimum levels myself.......is it too late to run hcg, get the boys back in size and olympic swimmer productive as they were b4 trt or close to it or will i just have to try and see

Well, I have been in TRT/HRT for 4 years now also, @ usually around 300mg Test weekly and sometimes 400 mg, which is considered a constant small cycle I hear with no HCG. My last visit to an Endo revealed that my boys were completely atrophied. I have gone thru three vials of HCG since then and my boys are back. Not sure how much they are producing but they are hanging good and feel good(size wise) not sure @ 100% or not but close.

[zaggahamma]

Well, I have been in TRT/HRT for 4 years now also, @ usually around 300mg Test weekly and sometimes 400 mg, which is considered a constant small cycle I hear with no HCG. My last visit to an Endo revealed that my boys were completely atrophied. I have gone thru three vials of HCG since then and my boys are back. Not sure how much they are producing but they are hanging good and feel good(size wise) not sure @ 100% or not but close.

thats real good and good to hear...will u find out if you are producing or is it not of concern

[Warrior1700]

thats real good and good to hear...will u find out if you are producing or is it not of concern

Not sure if I can find out if they are producing...maybe Dave knows or someone else of a test for that...not sure if its a concern since HRT/TRT is for life and I dunno if I will use HCG the whole time.

[zaggahamma]

Not sure if I can find out if they are producing...maybe Dave knows or someone else of a test for that...not sure if its a concern since HRT/TRT is for life and I dunno if I will use HCG the whole time.

well i guess i should just run it and see for myself

[Warrior1700]

well i guess i should just run it and see for myself

Cant hurt...give it a go and see what happens. If you no like, just stop it.

[ZonaDave]

i was always told that your balls shut down while on TRT unless you add HCG to your protocol but my doc says they don't completely shut down unless you are on massive doses of T for a long period. he didn't say how much for how long but i got the point.

one way to find out how much you'll be affected by HCG is to buy a months supply and try it. don't change anything else in your protocol and after a month check your levels. if your balls are capable of producing then your T should go up along with E2.

i think my balls got a little smaller since i stopped using HCG but i was never concerned about that. smaller balls make my dick look bigger

to be honest, i was happy that my doc didn't want me to use it anymore because it was a pain in the ass to deal with. it was one less component i had to deal with. after mixing it degrades over time so it loses it's potency. the one thing that concerned me was as it degrades it must have an affect on your T level as well as E2. as it loses potency it only makes sense that your T and E2 would drop accordingly. to me this means you would have to either increase your HCG dose or decrease your adex dose.

if you increase your HCG dose, when and by how much? if you decrease your adex, when and by how much?

if you're primary and your balls aren't capable of producing adequate amounts of T in the first place, now you are using a relatively unstabil component to attempt to produce hormones from an unreliable source, your balls.

but, alot of guys swear by it. it isn't too expensive and worth trying for a month to see if you like it or not.

[zaggahamma]

i was always told that your balls shut down while on TRT unless you add HCG to your protocol but my doc says they don't completely shut down unless you are on massive doses of T for a long period. he didn't say how much for how long but i got the point.

one way to find out how much you'll be affected by HCG is to buy a months supply and try it. don't change anything else in your protocol and after a month check your levels. if your balls are capable of producing then your T should go up along with E2.

i think my balls got a little smaller since i stopped using HCG but i was never concerned about that. smaller balls make my dick look bigger

to be honest, i was happy that my doc didn't want me to use it anymore because it was a pain in the ass to deal with. it was one less component i had to deal with. after mixing it degrades over time so it loses it's potency. the one thing that concerned me was as it degrades it must have an affect on your T level as well as E2. as it loses potency it only makes sense that your T and E2 would drop accordingly. to me this means you would have to either increase your HCG dose or decrease your adex dose.

if you increase your HCG dose, when and by how much? if you decrease your adex, when and by how much?

if you're primary and your balls aren't capable of producing adequate amounts of T in the first place, now you are using a relatively unstabil component to attempt to produce hormones from an unreliable source, your balls.

but, alot of guys swear by it. it isn't too expensive and worth trying for a month to see if you like it or not.

i dont understand the concern wether the hcg is making your test raise....youre getting that from the test injection...the hcg i want to make fertile sperm not test are they not totally different

[ZonaDave]

from what i understand HCG will help make you fertile. the reason i mentioned your levels going up is because it's a consideration when you add HCG to your existing protocol.

you might have to reduce your T dosage and adjust your adex dosage after adding.

[Warrior1700]

And how does one know if he is primary or not and does it really matter in TRT? Maybe in the use of HCG but in long term treatment, does it matter if one is primaryor not? Since we are getting Test exogeneous anyway.

[Warrior1700]

i dont understand the concern wether the hcg is making your test raise....youre getting that from the test injection...the hcg i want to make fertile sperm not test are they not totally different

The concern bout your test goin up is that you dont know how much, and you are getting a measured amount with your inj to keep you at a god level. Raising Test with HCG you will not know how much. I just thot that HCG would keep things going naturally. There is another thread here somewhere where guys use HCG regularly with theit TRT just to keep their balls working slightly.

Dave, if we shut down production by using TRT, how is it that they are still producing slightly as you stated that your Doc told you?

I didnt even hear about HCG helping to keep you fertile. My Endo doesnt even know what HCG if for in men. At least he has no opinion cuz he has zero experience with it. ANd he specializes in ED...hmmm?

[ZonaDave]

i can't see how HCG can be all that effective when someone is primary but should work pretty good for those who are secondary.

HCG basically simulates the signal from your pituitary to your balls telling them to produce more.

[oscarjones]

Interesting discussion so far.

From what I gather. HCG can raise test and E2 by stimulating pituitary.

I also gather that over an extended period of time HCG can de-sensitize the leydig cells in the testies. Does this, eventually, render the substance useless for both aesthetic and functionality purposes? How long does it take to de-sensitize, or does this only occur after large doses? How long can you stay on HCG, indefinitely?

[ZonaDave]

Interesting discussion so far.

From what I gather. HCG can raise test and E2 by stimulating pituitary.

I also gather that over an extended period of time HCG can de-sensitize the leydig cells in the testies. Does this, eventually, render the substance useless for both aesthetic and functionality purposes? How long does it take to de-sensitize, or does this only occur after large doses? How long can you stay on HCG, indefinitely?

it doesn't "stimulate" the pituitary, it "simulates" the LH and FSH from the pituitary to the leydig cells.

from what i understand it's high quantities of HCG that de-sensitizes the leydig cells. i'm not sure if this still happens if you're on a lower dose for long periods of time. most guys are on 200-250iu, 2-3x/week.

[oscarjones]

it doesn't "stimulate" the pituitary, it "simulates" the LH and FSH from the pituitary to the leydig cells.

from what i understand it's high quantities of HCG that de-sensitizes the leydig cells. i'm not sure if this still happens if you're on a lower dose for long periods of time. most guys are on 200-250iu, 2-3x/week.

Ok thanks for clarifying.

[zaggahamma]

glad the post took off

bump

[Warrior1700]

i can't see how HCG can be all that effective when someone is primary but should work pretty good for those who are secondary.

HCG basically simulates the signal from your pituitary to your balls telling them to produce more.

How does one know if they are primary or secondary?

[ZonaDave]

i think it gets a little harder to determine after starting TRT.

before starting TRT, doctors can have a pretty good idea by testing LH and FSH levels. if those levels are high it means your pituitary is sending a strong message to the balls for more T. this indicates that you're primary because your balls aren't capable of producing adequate amounts of T.

if LH and FSH is low it means that the pituitary isn't sending a strong enough message to the balls to produce more T. this indicates secondary because it's your pituitary.

once TRT is started your LH and FSH levels change and can't really be used to determine primary or secondary.

guys who are secondary usually do very well when HCG is added to the protocol because it gets the balls producing when the pituitary couldn't.

even when you're primary, HCG can assist by producing the small amounts of hormones like they did before TRT was started. some people think every little bit helps while others think HCG isn't required. people have been on TRT long before HCG came on the scene so it's an individual decision.

[fm2002]

i think it gets a little harder to determine after starting TRT.

before starting TRT, doctors can have a pretty good idea by testing LH and FSH levels. if those levels are high it means your pituitary is sending a strong message to the balls for more T. this indicates that you're primary because your balls aren't capable of producing adequate amounts of T.

if LH and FSH is low it means that the pituitary isn't sending a strong enough message to the balls to produce more T. this indicates secondary because it's your pituitary.

once TRT is started your LH and FSH levels change and can't really be used to determine primary or secondary.

guys who are secondary usually do very well when HCG is added to the protocol because it gets the balls producing when the pituitary couldn't.

even when you're primary, HCG can assist by producing the small amounts of hormones like they did before TRT was started. some people think every little bit helps while others think HCG isn't required. people have been on TRT long before HCG came on the scene so it's an individual decision.

This may be a bit of a hijack, but like to make a point how important it is to have your blood tested before you start any substance. This way you have a baseline to refer back to. In my case I have also been contemplating starting HCG as part of my HRT routine and after reading the explanation of determining whether one is primary or secondary I can now go back to my baseline blood results and see what I am. Thanks Dave for explaining this !

[zaggahamma]

This may be a bit of a hijack, but like to make a point how important it is to have your blood tested before you start any substance. This way you have a baseline to refer back to. In my case I have also been contemplating starting HCG as part of my HRT routine and after reading the explanation of determining whether one is primary or secondary I can now go back to my baseline blood results and see what I am. Thanks Dave for explaining this !

not a hijack at all bro....and great advice