TRT Test C 200 mg pr week and lately not as strong?WTF

[TASSY5]

I am curious, can you rbody regulate itself to 200 mg per week and need more to have more strenght gains? At one point i could benching 315 for 2 sets of 10 now I am lucky to get 1 set of 2. Back I was putting 4 to 5 45lbs plates on each side of the Lat pull down machine and now 3 seems to be my max. Even my squats went from 315 to 225 being heavy. WTF is happening.
I am in the gym 4 to 5 days per week

Monday---Bis and Tris -- Abs--15 min cardio
Tues---Back and Lats--15 min cardio
Wed----Chest----Abs
Thurs---Legs---15 min cardio
Friday--- Sholders---Abs -15 min cardio

I am in good shape for the most part. Everyone at the gym i go to say they can see the results of my training and that i am getting Big. But does getting Big Suffer the loss of strength or is something not being done properly.
42yrs old
5'10
225 lbs solid
Where is my strength going these days

[zaggahamma]

only thing i can answer on that post is getting big doesnt make you weaker

[ottomaddox]

Have you made any changes lately in regards to your diet?

[TASSY5]

have cut out alot of carbs in the early day and dont eat much red meat any more

[j4ever41]

have cut out alot of carbs in the early day and dont eat much red meat any more

out of curosity how many carbs are you eating? are you low carb and low fat?

[Vitruvian-Man]

I would give yourself a rest day rather then working out 5 days on 2 days off.

This may aid a bit with your recovery.

Why not take wednesday off as a rest day, and sunday.

Go to your doctor and get your total test and free free levels checked. Your numbers should be pretty constant though. You're on doc prescribed TRT right?

You should get your estrogen levels checked as well.. that can play a role in strength. Are you on a dosage of a-dex with your TRT?

[ZonaDave]

high E2 can rob your T. get your E2 checked and add some adex if required. a good starting dose is .25mg E3D.

to answer you question "does getting big suffer the loss of strength or is something not being done properly", my guess is one or more of the following:

1) high E2 - blocking Free T
2) not enough rest - overtraining
3) not enough calories

strength increase always preceeds size increase. if you want to get bigger you have to get stronger...there is no other possibility. strength training needs to be brief and infrequent to allow for recovery. also, as a muscle gets bigger it's angle of pull becomes less efficient which means you have to exert more force to contract it, especially under load. this is why you sometimes see really big guys not lifting that much weight.

try this modified routine:

Monday - 15 Min Cardio (warm-up), Back, Bis, Abs
Tues- Rest
Wed - 15 Min Cardio (warm-up), Chest, Tris, Abs
Thurs - Rest
Friday - 15 Min Cardio (warm-up), Legs, Abs
Saturday - Rest
Sunday - Rest

this routine works all your "pushing" muscles on the same day and all your "pulling" muscles on another. i wouldn't hit abs too hard either. most guys with any amount of training already have pretty good abs, they just have fat covering them. Abs are made in the kitchen.

[Tjohn6231]

have cut out alot of carbs in the early day and dont eat much red meat any more

I can really tell a difference whenever my carbs are low. My bench suffers a lot if Im not eating good carbs.

[TASSY5]

Thanks for the good responses guys,
I will try a different diet plan and try better good carbs, also Rest may be the key as I have peen pushing it pretty hard lately.
I will give your suggestions some real thought on change.

Thanks again

[zaggahamma]

high E2 can rob your T. get your E2 checked and add some adex if required. a good starting dose is .25mg E3D.

to answer you question "does getting big suffer the loss of strength or is something not being done properly", my guess is one or more of the following:

1) high E2 - blocking Free T
2) not enough rest - overtraining
3) not enough calories

strength increase always preceeds size increase. if you want to get bigger you have to get stronger...there is no other possibility. strength training needs to be brief and infrequent to allow for recovery. also, as a muscle gets bigger it's angle of pull becomes less efficient which means you have to exert more force to contract it, especially under load. this is why you sometimes see really big guys not lifting that much weight.

try this modified routine:

Monday - 15 Min Cardio (warm-up), Back, Bis, Abs
Tues- Rest
Wed - 15 Min Cardio (warm-up), Chest, Tris, Abs
Thurs - Rest
Friday - 15 Min Cardio (warm-up), Legs, Abs
Saturday - Rest
Sunday - Rest

this routine works all your "pushing" muscles on the same day and all your "pulling" muscles on another. i wouldn't hit abs too hard either. most guys with any amount of training already have pretty good abs, they just have fat covering them. Abs are made in the kitchen.

i didnt get that big dude light weight part and are you assuming the shoulders are getting enough work on chest day

[tboney]

I am curious, can you rbody regulate itself to 200 mg per week and need more to have more strenght gains? At one point i could benching 315 for 2 sets of 10 now I am lucky to get 1 set of 2. Back I was putting 4 to 5 45lbs plates on each side of the Lat pull down machine and now 3 seems to be my max. Even my squats went from 315 to 225 being heavy. WTF is happening.
I am in the gym 4 to 5 days per week

Monday---Bis and Tris -- Abs--15 min cardio
Tues---Back and Lats--15 min cardio
Wed----Chest----Abs
Thurs---Legs---15 min cardio
Friday--- Sholders---Abs -15 min cardio

I am in good shape for the most part. Everyone at the gym i go to say they can see the results of my training and that i am getting Big. But does getting Big Suffer the loss of strength or is something not being done properly.
42yrs old
5'10
225 lbs solid
Where is my strength going these days

You are either over training or your diet is off.

[ZonaDave]

i didnt get that big dude light weight part and are you assuming the shoulders are getting enough work on chest day

on occassion you'll see really big guys lifting relatively lighter weights than what you'd expect. this doesn't represent their total strength, it's just that they have to exert more forced to contract a large muscle. my point is you can't compare yourself to another person when it comes to strength. i've seen guys in the gym that are alot bigger than me but i'm alot stronger. he could be using a lighter weight but exerting the same amount of force.

yes, shoulders get alot of stimulation when working chest and back. i normally throw in a set of military press on chest day. i only do compound movements (i.e. bench press, lat pull-downs, etc...) and never do isolation excercises for arms (i.e. curls, tri push-downs, etc...). small muscle groups get enough stimulation while working the large muscles using compound excercises. try doing a set of flat bench press without using your shoulders or triceps.

[Warrior1700]

and never do isolation excercises for arms (i.e. curls, tri push-downs, etc...). small muscle groups get enough stimulation while working the large muscles using compound excercises. try doing a set of flat bench press without using your shoulders or triceps.

The example routine u posted said back/bis, and chest/tris...I understand that arms are used during the major chest and back movements, so if you dont do isolation exercises for bis/tris, what so u do?

[zaggahamma]

on occassion you'll see really big guys lifting relatively lighter weights than what you'd expect. this doesn't represent their total strength, it's just that they have to exert more forced to contract a large muscle. my point is you can't compare yourself to another person when it comes to strength. i've seen guys in the gym that are alot bigger than me but i'm alot stronger. he could be using a lighter weight but exerting the same amount of force.

yes, shoulders get alot of stimulation when working chest and back. i normally throw in a set of military press on chest day. i only do compound movements (i.e. bench press, lat pull-downs, etc...) and never do isolation excercises for arms (i.e. curls, tri push-downs, etc...). small muscle groups get enough stimulation while working the large muscles using compound excercises. try doing a set of flat bench press without using your shoulders or triceps.

ok..theres the shoulder mystery(i predicted) and so when u say back and bi's day...you just do back exercises and the pulling works the bis for you....that might answer warrior's question as well.....

but i can understand when you and i said earlier that you need to get stronger to get bigger but then why is the bigger guy lifting the lighter weight...cuz he's bigger now and its harder to do the same exercise cuz of the angle of the muscle...like u said earlier? sorrry if i sound confusing

[ZonaDave]

ok..theres the shoulder mystery(i predicted) and so when u say back and bi's day...you just do back exercises and the pulling works the bis for you....that might answer warrior's question as well.....

but i can understand when you and i said earlier that you need to get stronger to get bigger but then why is the bigger guy lifting the lighter weight...cuz he's bigger now and its harder to do the same exercise cuz of the angle of the muscle...like u said earlier? sorrry if i sound confusing

you got it! it's a matter of math. most guys will do pressing exercises for their chest, lets say 3 exercises of 3 sets (10-12 reps). this is very common but i'm not sure where the 3 sets came from. why not 2 sets or why not 4 sets? anyway, you do 3 exercises of 3 sets. that's 9 sets that works your chest, shoulders and tris (upper body pushing muscles). then you move onto shoulders and do the same thing. then after that you move onto tris and do the same thing. in this situation the largest muscle gets the least amount of exercise and the smallest muscle gets the most.

overtraining is the most common reason for failure in the gym. too much stimulation and not enough time to recover. your body recovers as a whole so there's no advantage in working a different body part each day thinking the previously worked body part is recovering. if that were true then you could split your body into seven parts and train everyday of the week.

the best indicator of overtraining is loss of strength. TRT definately helps your body recover faster but there's a limitation. like the old saying goes "you can train hard or you can train long, but you can't train hard for long".

when my E2 goes high i lose strength and start looking a little flat. this is caused by Free T being blocked. increasing adex a little corrects this within a few days.

[Warrior1700]

The example routine u posted said back/bis, and chest/tris...I understand that arms are used during the major chest and back movements, so if you dont do isolation exercises for bis/tris, what so u do?

What about the not doing iso's for the bis/tris...? what do you do otherwise on those chest and back days?

[zaggahamma]

What about the not doing iso's for the bis/tris...? what do you do otherwise on those chest and back days?

he's getting his bi's worked enough on back exercises like lat pulls, rows, any pulling exercise and the pushing for chest is working the tri's....he DOESNT do the isos that you are asking about....correct me if i'm wrong zona....
i'll leave out tri/bi day every once and a while myself

[Warrior1700]

he's getting his bi's worked enough on back exercises like lat pulls, rows, any pulling exercise and the pushing for chest is working the tri's....he DOESNT do the isos that you are asking about....correct me if i'm wrong zona....
i'll leave out tri/bi day every once and a while myself

Ok thanks ..just tryin to clatify.

[ZonaDave]

he's getting his bi's worked enough on back exercises like lat pulls, rows, any pulling exercise and the pushing for chest is working the tri's....he DOESNT do the isos that you are asking about....correct me if i'm wrong zona....
i'll leave out tri/bi day every once and a while myself

that's correct, if you're doing compound exercises like bench press and lat pull-downs then you don't have to work tris and bis.

this is a hard concept for guys to get because working arms is fun and you get instant gratification from the pump.

the problem is working arms after doing compound exercises is counter productive and can easily overtrain your arms. when the arms get overtrained compound exercises suffer as a result and this is why you lose strength.

my buddy and i were personally trained by Mike Mentzer back in the mid 90's and ever since then we haven't done one isolation exercise for arms. our workouts only consisted of compound exercises. i haven't competed in years but this is a recent picture of my buddy during a competition. as you can see, his arms haven't suffered from not doing isolation exercises.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zonadave/4059245568/

[Warrior1700]

that's correct, if you're doing compound exercises like bench press and lat pull-downs then you don't have to work tris and bis.

this is a hard concept for guys to get because working arms is fun and you get instant gratification from the pump.

the problem is working arms after doing compound exercises is counter productive and can easily overtrain your arms. when the arms get overtrained compound exercises suffer as a result and this is why you lose strength.

my buddy and i were personally trained by Mike Mentzer back in the mid 90's and ever since then we haven't done one isolation exercise for arms. our workouts only consisted of compound exercises. i haven't competed in years but this is a recent picture of my buddy during a competition. as you can see, his arms haven't suffered from not doing isolation exercises.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zonadave/4059245568/

Holy crap...those arms are from NO Iso's or seperate arm exercises..all from compound movedments? Sheesh. I do bench and free weight pull ups, but I still do a small amout of bi/tris...about every 2 weeks or so along with side laterals for shoulders...just to tweek em up a bit, but WOW....

[FireGuy]

he's getting his bi's worked enough on back exercises like lat pulls, rows, any pulling exercise and the pushing for chest is working the tri's....he DOESNT do the isos that you are asking about....correct me if i'm wrong zona....
i'll leave out tri/bi day every once and a while myself

I have always disagreed with this line of thought. If you biceps are getting worked hard on back day you really need to improve your form. I can do full range of motion rows and pulldowns and use little if any biceps. If you are pulling with your elbows and not your hands (as you should be) your biceps will get some static contraction and that's about it.

[ZonaDave]

Holy crap...those arms are from NO Iso's or seperate arm exercises..all from compound movedments? Sheesh. I do bench and free weight pull ups, but I still do a small amout of bi/tris...about every 2 weeks or so along with side laterals for shoulders...just to tweek em up a bit, but WOW....

neither one of us have done a single set of curls in about 15 years.

we followed the same training principle Mike had Dorian Yates on when he was getting ready for the Mr. O

[ZonaDave]

If you are pulling with your elbows and not your hands (as you should be) your biceps will get some static contraction and that's about it.

how do you hold the bar with your elbows?

[FireGuy]

how do you hold the bar with your elbows?

Did I state I held the bar with my elbows?

[ZonaDave]

Did I state I held the bar with my elbows?

you said "pulling with your elbows and not your hands". how do you pull with your elbows without using your hands?

[FireGuy]

you said "pulling with your elbows and not your hands". how do you pull with your elbows without using your hands?

False grip with wrist wraps, the hands are simply there to hold the bar. The "pull" comes from the elbows. If there is anything else you want for me to spell out for you or if you need further details let me know.

[ZonaDave]

False grip with wrist wraps, the hands are simply there to hold the bar. The "pull" comes from the elbows. If there is anything else you want for me to spell out for you or if you need further details let me know.

ahhh, ok...so by removing your grip you no longer use your biceps? i can see "pulling" without using biceps if you use a pull-over machine.

when doing bench press are you able to push with your elbows to remove your triceps? you must be able to do this because you're not using much grip while pushing.

maybe i've just be using the wrong technique all these years because my biceps and triceps still get sore after a hard workout.

[FireGuy]

I am not saying the biceps muscle is not activated. I am saying using proper technique you can shift a much greater stimulus to the back muscles and greatly decrease the amount of bicep involvement. You can get a full 100% lat stretch with your arms still bent at a 30 degree angle and get a peak contraction on lat movements with less than a 90 degree at the bicep/forearm axis. This reduces the range of motion in the biceps to a couple inches for most individuals. This as opposed to straightening the arms completely (on the eccentric portion) then finishing with a greater than 90 degree bicep angle.

[FireGuy]

ahhh, ok...so by removing your grip you no longer use your biceps? i can see "pulling" without using biceps if you use a pull-over machine.

when doing bench press are you able to push with your elbows to remove your triceps? you must be able to do this because you're not using much grip while pushing.

maybe i've just be using the wrong technique all these years because my biceps and triceps still get sore after a hard workout.

Actually the triceps really dont come into play when benching until the top 1/3 of the movement. Simply by not locking out and stopping about 4-6 inches from the top you can remove much of the tricep involvement from this exercise as well.

[FireGuy]

Maybe you should post a recent picture of you doing a back double bicep so I can see what kind of results you are getting?

[ZonaDave]

I am not saying the biceps muscle is not activated. I am saying using proper technique you can shift a much greater stimulus to the back muscles and greatly decrease the amount of bicep involvement. You can get a full 100% lat stretch with your arms still bent at a 30 degree angle and get a peak contraction on lat movements with less than a 90 degree at the bicep/forearm axis. This reduces the range of motion in the biceps to a couple inches for most individuals. This as opposed to straightening the arms completely (on the eccentric portion) then finishing with a greater than 90 degree bicep angle.

ok, this is what i meant by the pull-over. you're basically simulating that movement.

i use to do nautilus pull-overs to isolate and pre-exhaust the lats before doing lat pull downs. this fatiques the lats and allows you to work the lats harder when the biceps are involved in the pull-down movement. to each his own....

my point is regardless of training method, there has to be a balance between training intensity, recovery and nutrition.

these are the elements TASSY5's should consider when experiencing strength loss. i would also look into E2 because from my experience i lose strength when my E2 is high and nothing else in my routine has changed. when i add adex my strength returns.

[Warrior1700]

WHEW, I am glad that pissin match and who"s got bigger balls contest is over...and back on topic. I was ready to come kick both your Arses...Lmao. This is an opinion forum gents, we all have em, just like those elbows(lol)...no on is 100% right or wrong.

[FireGuy]

ok, this is what i meant by the pull-over. you're basically simulating that movement.
i use to do nautilus pull-overs to isolate and pre-exhaust the lats before doing lat pull downs. this fatiques the lats and allows you to work the lats harder when the biceps are involved in the pull-down movement. to each his own....

my point is regardless of training method, there has to be a balance between training intensity, recovery and nutrition.

these are the elements TASSY5's should consider when experiencing strength loss. i would also look into E2 because from my experience i lose strength when my E2 is high and nothing else in my routine has changed. when i add adex my strength returns.

Yes and No, I am utilizing the same principle but I am saying you can do seated rows or lat pull downs in the same manner. I watch guys do seated rows in the gym all the time using nearly 100% biceps and no back, arms extended all the way on the stretch and then when they pull back the shoulders stay forward and the chest collapses down and the upper back gets rounded.

[zaggahamma]

Yes and No, I am utilizing the same principle but I am saying you can do seated rows or lat pull downs in the same manner. I watch guys do seated rows in the gym all the time using nearly 100% biceps and no back, arms extended all the way on the stretch and then when they pull back the shoulders stay forward and the chest collapses down and the upper back gets rounded.

yeh...i can see where that would way of doing pulls would work bi's more....i think i may do a form of both where i will leave out iso's a week or every other week
you both offer solid advice...
i do see where zona's advice is targeting the op's problem directly

[ZonaDave]

i've seen the same thing many times with pretty much any exercise you can think of. very much like guys doing curls and swinging the weight so bad they are using momentum and lower back to complete the movement.

the bottom line is this. if someone can't make progress naturally using proper training, recovery and nutrition, they will have little or no success on TRT or steriod cycles for that matter. been there, done that...

years ago i would do a cycle and put on 30lbs. in a three month period which was mostly muscle but alot of water too because at the time i didn't understand estrogen's role. when i came off the cycle i would lose pretty much everything i gained. i was in the marines at the time so training often was encouraged.

out of frustration i would wait a month or two and then do the same thing. i didn't know at the time that i was grossly overtrained and the only way i could make any progress was when i was on a cycle. if you take enough juice any workout routine will work. the problem comes when you go off it and return to your regular overtraining routine.

a few years ago i started losing strength and subsequently size but i wasn't sure why. i'm 42 now and i just thought it was a fact of getting older. i was working alot of hours and i thought it could also be stress related. it wasn't until i started having low libido and ED issues that i finally went to see a doc. after getting the run around i finally found a doc that suggested low T. i never heard of that and didn't realize it happened. that started my quest for knowledge about TRT and i had all the textbook symptoms.

shortly after i got my T into the top range i started having great workouts. my strength was steadily increasing and shortly after that came the size increase. it was like someone plugged me back in!

after being on TRT for a year i'm stronger and in better shape than most guys half my age and things just keep getting better.

[zaggahamma]

i've seen the same thing many times with pretty much any exercise you can think of. very much like guys doing curls and swinging the weight so bad they are using momentum and lower back to complete the movement.

the bottom line is this. if someone can't make progress naturally using proper training, recovery and nutrition, they will have little or no success on TRT or steriod cycles for that matter. been there, done that...

years ago i would do a cycle and put on 30lbs. in a three month period which was mostly muscle but alot of water too because at the time i didn't understand estrogen's role. when i came off the cycle i would lose pretty much everything i gained. i was in the marines at the time so training often was encouraged.

out of frustration i would wait a month or two and then do the same thing. i didn't know at the time that i was grossly overtrained and the only way i could make any progress was when i was on a cycle. if you take enough juice any workout routine will work. the problem comes when you go off it and return to your regular overtraining routine.

a few years ago i started losing strength and subsequently size but i wasn't sure why. i'm 42 now and i just thought it was a fact of getting older. i was working alot of hours and i thought it could also be stress related. it wasn't until i started having low libido and ED issues that i finally went to see a doc. after getting the run around i finally found a doc that suggested low T. i never heard of that and didn't realize it happened. that started my quest for knowledge about TRT and i had all the textbook symptoms.

shortly after i got my T into the top range i started having great workouts. my strength was steadily increasing and shortly after that came the size increase. it was like someone plugged me back in!

after being on TRT for a year i'm stronger and in better shape than most guys half my age and things just keep getting better.

yest trt has brought back many of us....keep up the great posts dave

[FireGuy]

WHEW, I am glad that pissin match and who"s got bigger balls contest is over...and back on topic. I was ready to come kick both your Arses...Lmao. This is an opinion forum gents, we all have em, just like those elbows(lol)...no on is 100% right or wrong.

It's not like I said brunettes are better looking than blondes. I dont think my opinion was subjective at all. My point (which I believe there IS a right or wrong answer to) is that by altering the manner and form in which one performs an exercise can shift the emphasis from one muscle to another.

[Warrior1700]

It's not like I said brunettes are better looking than blondes. I dont think my opinion was subjective at all. My point (which I believe there IS a right or wrong answer to) is that by altering the manner and form in which one performs an exercise can shift the emphasis from one muscle to another.

Not like I said that you said brunettes are better loking than blondes. I said not 100% right...Its ALL subjective and relative. This is still off topic...give it a rest already. I was trying to simmer you 2 down and to quit arguing but one seems to want to keep it goin...

[FireGuy]

Not like I said that you said brunettes are better loking than blondes. I said not 100% right...Its ALL subjective and relative. This is still off topic...give it a rest already. I was trying to simmer you 2 down and to quit arguing but one seems to want to keep it goin...

I wasnt arguing, I thought it was a productive. But I totally disagree with you. Its not all subjective. My statement again is, "The form and manner in which you perfom and exercise can alter how much stress is placed on different muscles groups". Are you saying thats a subjective statement and not a fact? Again, not arguing with you and if you think otherwise I want to hear why you feel that's subjective.

[FireGuy]

Let me see if I can dumb this down a bit.
My statement about blondes vs brunettes was to give you an example of something which is truly "subjective". It is my opinion and there is no right or wrong answer.

My statement about the form effective muscle fiber stimulus is also my opinion but it is based on facts. The statement is either correct or incorrect. It is NOT subjective. I gave you examples to prove my point. If you feel it is incorrect I am willing to entertain your thoughts on it with an open mind. But to say its subjective is a fallacy in your thinking.